Sure, it doesn't NECESSARILY follow it. But I never claimed it did.Want does not follow need. — Heister Eggcart
I don't think one NEEDS love. Rather one wants love, because they feel, know and understand that it is good.Perhaps you don't need to be in a relationship, that is true. But one does still require love, which does not depend on sex. — Heister Eggcart
No I have, I'm saying that your sex is a necessary evil argument, simply entails that logic that I've outlined there. it's a reaction to that logic.What? Have you not read anything that I've written so far? You've said the complete opposite of what I've argued this whole time... — Heister Eggcart
No, sorry, this is pure ignorance, Heister. You are NOT just having a physical experience when having sex, just like the words in a book aren't just ink on a page. Things have meaning - sex does too.No, sorry, this is pure mumbo-jumbo, Agustino. You are NOT one in body with the other when having sex. All that has happened is one genitalia fitting into another. That's it. That's all. Nothing more. Now, you can believe that some spiritual event has taken place because sausage meets bun, but this does not uproot what very simply, and physically, happens during sex. — Heister Eggcart
And did I say that you have to have sex in order to be in closer communion with God? Of course not. But remember the metaphors used in the Bible. Christ and his Church are like the bride and groom. Man and wife. Sex as a unitive practice applies only between man and wife, but it symbolises the theosis that can be achieved between man and God, on a different level of course. That's why the Bible says the married people become ONE flesh - not two, not three, not five hundred. That's also why sex outside of marriage was considered an evil - it prevents the goal of ONE flesh.I'll wait while you find me the time when Jesus had sex in order to more closely commune with his Father. — Heister Eggcart
So you're basically telling me that you agree they did the wrong thing, but you don't want to remedy it because you like it and folks are used to it. So I guess then if someone does something wrong, but it's good for us, then we shouldn't seek to remedy it. Nice principle to have that, no? :PIf we were both in the US, I'd tell you that I agree with Hanover that the SCOTUS overstepped its authority with Roe V Wade. But the ultimate effect is that abortion is now normalized in the US. When the vote comes to amend the constitution (and I could see that happening in the next 50 years or so), most Americans will agree that abortion is a right because they're used to it. — Mongrel
I don't care what is "American" or not. I care what is right and just. And no - my problem with abortion is that it's a MURDER which is used to justify sexual immorality - which is even worse than it just being murder. Killing a thief who attacks you is also murder, and yet that's in self-defense and clearly not a moral tragedy. So the fact that it's murder alone is not sufficient.I gather from what you've said that your main concern is not that abortion is murder, but that it seems to you to have something to do with sexual freedom. By and large, this isn't an American attitude. It exists here, but it's lunatic fringe. — Mongrel
The state shouldn't choose between the two evils. — Agustino
So you don't see having to carry and raise the child of a man who raped you as an evil? — Agustino
Why? — Agustino
You are NOT just having a physical experience when having sex, just like the words in a book aren't just ink on a page. Things have meaning - sex does too. — Agustino
And did I say that you have to have sex in order to be in closer communion with God? Of course not. — Agustino
That's why the Bible says the married people become ONE flesh — Agustino
apart of course from worrying what will happen to the child? — Agustino
But I already told you what sex means. It means becoming one, spiritually and physically, with the beloved. It's a symbol of unity. The way theosis is symbolised by Heaven and Earth uniting at the end-times for example.Inked words on a page are only meaningful when we understand what they mean. Sex may be the same way, but you've yet to explain your way out of intentions and why sex means anything beyond its physical context. — Heister Eggcart
That oneness that sex (can) bring about is only an imperfect image of the oneness that can be achieved between man and God through theosis after death.You've argued that sex brings about a oneness, a kind of love. If you think that, then sex is then a means toward communing more closely with God, which would be a highly dubious claim.
Going back to my first response here, if sex does not bring someone closer to "God", then there really is no good reason for you to have sex in the first place. — Heister Eggcart
Do you read your Bible literarily? :P Or is it only sex that you like to read literarily?This is metaphysical gibberish which does not escape the fact that a couple's bodies are NOT one when having sex. — Heister Eggcart
But I already told you what sex means. It means becoming one, spiritually and physically — Agustino
That oneness that sex (can) bring about is only an imperfect image of the oneness that can be achieved between man and God through theosis after death. — Agustino
Do you read your Bible literarily? :P Or is it only sex that you like to read literarily? — Agustino
So you're basically telling me that you agree they did the wrong thing, but you don't want to remedy it because you like it and folks are used to it. So I guess then if someone does something wrong, but it's good for us, then we shouldn't seek to remedy it. Nice principle to have that, no? — Agustino
Then you have my respect even if we disagree.I don't care what is "American" or not. I care what is right and just. — Agustino
Native Americans performed abortions before white people got here. They used one of my favorite plants to do it: mayapple. I doubt it had anything to do with justifying sexual immorality. More likely it was about what the tribe could support. Anyway.. there's not much point in our trying to come to agreement on this because you aren't likely to ever have any influence in my part of the world and I won't have any influence in yours. So we can definitely agree to disagree.. And no - my problem with abortion is that it's a MURDER which is used to justify sexual immorality - which is even worse than it just being murder. Killing a thief who attacks you is also murder, and yet that's in self-defense and clearly not a moral tragedy. So the fact that it's murder alone is not sufficient. — Agustino
>:ONoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, :’( — Heister Eggcart
Correction: sexual chastity OUTSIDE of marriage is a virtue in Christianity. Sexual chastity while married is NOT a virtue, that's precisely why St. Paul told married people in Corinthians not to deprive each other - even as they were expecting great tribulations and needed to fortify themselves (for which chastity was better). For those who are devoted entirely to God - the monks - chastity exists. But for example for priests - in Eastern Orthodox Christianity of which I am a part - chastity isn't required. Priests can be married, if they are married, then being chaste is not a requirement.Tell me, Agustino, why is sexual chastity a virtue in Christianity? — Heister Eggcart
Why don't you tell us why you think sex is always evil then? Why don't you think spiritual and physical union through sex can be achieved?You seem be, as there's no reason for you to continually say that there is physical unity between two people during sex when there is not. Period. — Heister Eggcart
My point isn't to convince you - it's to lay out an argument. You have to judge an argument on its terms. You cannot swap terms and plug in your conceptions. My argument is valid. — Agustino
I don't think they can think that if they understand their souls. There cannot be two women in your life, just the same way there can't be two suns in the sky - or two pieces of a puzzle which can go in the same place.
Why don't you tell us why you think sex is always evil then? Why don't you think spiritual and physical union through sex can be achieved? — Agustino
The monks fear it like plague because sex outside of marriage is a grave sin - obviously. Also being a monk is incompatible with being married - thus for them, in all circumstances sex is a grave sin.If sex were okay then monks wouldn't fear it like the plague — Heister Eggcart
And? Christianity isn't also Jewish? How can Christianity be against Judaism and its values? The Jews are God's Chosen people. Jesus came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it. Remember that.Paul wasn't a dummy, he realized that most people are sexually obsessed lunatics, so he wrought the idea of marriage chastity in with both the Jewish and Roman traditions that also stressed a similar value for family and marital vows. — Heister Eggcart
God is love, ergo, to love is to know God. — Thorongil
Sex is a form of love.
And? Christianity isn't also Jewish? How can Christianity be against Judaism and its values? The Jews are God's Chosen people. Jesus came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it. Remember that. — Agustino
So, this whole "God is love" thing seems grammatically incorrect. Either that or there's equivocation at play here. — Michael
I disagree with the second premise. Sex is a part of a form of love. The form of love - which includes but is not limited to, nor necessarily must include sex - allows an imperfect, or better said incomplete knowledge of God, for it still remains within the realm of the created. The love of Adam and Eve for example doesn't just include sex - that's not all that exists in the love among them. Sex, however, can also be one of the components. When it is, the act represents a smaller completion of the human being. Adam gets back Eve, which is really a part of him - they are of one body - even literarily in the story. But there is a greater completion, and that occurs when the two are submerged into God.God is love, ergo, to love is to know God.
Sex is a form of love.
Therefore sex allows one to know God. — Thorongil
Man, you go from 0 to 100 with the religious lingo, I tell ya. I also never said Christianity is against Jewish values. I actually said the opposite, but, you know, English is hard. — Heister Eggcart
So St. Paul put together the idea of chastity with the idea of marriage because folks are sexually obsessed lunatics. And yet, the idea of marriage and chastity existed already in Jewish culture. Marriage was an institution ordained by God, including the idea of chastity before but not IN marriage. Why then is sex in marriage always evil?Paul wasn't a dummy, he realized that most people are sexually obsessed lunatics, so he wrought the idea of marriage chastity in with both the Jewish and Roman traditions that also stressed a similar value for family and marital vows. — Heister Eggcart
Why then is sex in marriage always evil? — Agustino
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