the illusion of her — synthesis

For this exact point, I'd say your line of reasoning, at least in the context of this example is flawed. Happiness is not illusion (or is it?), some argue happiness is not illusion (though it is subjective, some even reduce it [emotion] to scientific terms expressed as chemical balances or imbalances), but ignoring that possibility for a moment. The more seemingly true yet false sources of happiness one removes from their life, mathematically/absolutely the closer one becomes to true happiness. Which is again subjective. Right? To me, you can't have happiness with unpredictability. And you can't have unpredictability without possibility of failure, misery, or misfortune. It's a cosmic dance the two opposing forces, feelings, and/or moods are forever intertwined in, the final result a one-of-a-kind tapestry that is "one's life". Reminds me of an old song, "Dire Straits - Walk of Life".

If happiness results in sadness, why be happy? — synthesis

You open a philosophical Pandora's Box with this question. Why be more than a single-celled microorganism while we're at it. Or a cat. Or a fish. Why even be alive? Because, you know you love it.

If happiness results in sadness, why be happy? — synthesis

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

You can't will happiness. Happiness happens as does sadness. It is the way we experience something special in our lives. Sort of like bold type.

Your position essentially revolves around the question of definitions. Happy, content, satisified, satiated. Depending on how you choose to spin the word "happiness" you can promulgate almost any argument.

What you call contentment I think is a mature understanding of happiness.

I am not sure that happiness is just about achieving goals and desires because many people achieve these and are not happy. Perhaps the Buddha was right in seeing craving as a source of suffering.

However, we are likely to become depressed when we are unable to fulfill any of our dreams and I don't think it is that simple to try to eradicate desires and cravings, even with meditation. In many instances it may be conscious experience of unhappiness which brings us to some awareness of what will bring us happiness. Of course, it may be that when we have fulfilled these dreams that we are not as happy as we thought that we would be, but a certain experiences of satisfaction may be attained, which is far better than the misery and despair of being unable to fulfill satisfaction at all.

Your position essentially revolves around the question of definitions. — Pantagruel

What communication via language does not?

What you call contentment I think is a mature understanding of happiness. — Pantagruel

Contentment is being ok with whatever presents in life, and I would agree that this realization should come with maturity, but Western culture does not seem to be advocating such, instead, it offers the idea that attaining a state of happiness should be one's raison d'entre (and of course, nobody can maintain such a state, so it's the perfect lure).

For me I think it's better to look at what leads to a life of contentment. We can read of characters who were historically contented from autobiographies. We can see how much happiness was in their lives. In general I have found that fulfillment is what makes people contented, and the inevitable sad times that come with the happy times are mitigated by ones having a genuine sense of purpose.

Happiness seems to work like any other drug.

Although there is nothing wrong with happiness and pleasure, it can never take the place of doing what we must in order to achieve those things that bring us a sense of overall well-being...like working hard, eating well, getting regular exercise, having a spiritual life, and helping others (among other things), that is, living your life with meaningful purpose.

This puts happiness in it's correct place as an occasional dessert to be savored, not the main course day after day after day where it loses it appeal just like every other drug.

Yeah, I just wrote pretty much the same thing.

Life is what it is and will hit all of us with all kinds of stuff. In order to be in position to enjoy the good and deal effectively with the not-so-good, you have to fortify your center. That way, you will not overly attach to the good (and be crushed when that is over), and be strong enough to deal with the not-so-good so you can be whole once it finally departs, as well.

Contentment is being ok with whatever presents in life, and I would agree that this realization should come with maturity, but Western culture does not seem to be advocating such, instead, it offers the idea that attaining a state of happiness should be one's raison d'entre (and of course, nobody can maintain such a state, so it's the perfect lure). — synthesis

Aha, so it is really a cultural issue then.

I'm of a stoical disposition - IMO, stoicism is the route and recipe to true happiness.

I dunno some people have all the luck. Perfect life, finances, career, relationships, etc. Then perhaps they get fatally impacted by a sudden falling asteroid. Though the happiness technically did end, seeing as the life it was enjoyed in did, it's almost like it didn't. Lol. There was never any unhappiness in this hypothetical (yet existent albeit rare) scenario.

I'm of a stoical disposition - IMO, stoicism is the route and recipe to true happiness. — Pantagruel

We all arrive and depart this plane (of existence) alone, so you might have something there!

I dunno some people have all the luck. — Outlander

The Grand Illusion.

Nobody gets a free pass in this life.

"fortify your center."

That's a good way of putting it. And in spiritual terms, centering ones self. Grounding is important.
And for that we also have to remember to physically ground ourselves by walking barefoot at times. Spiritually grounding by shutting off all the media and madness and being truly alone with the universe. Meditation is certainly a way.

You are using too shallow a definition of happiness. Surely when Jefferson wrote the sentence,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

he wasn't suggesting something on the order of "you just met the one of nicest, most beautiful girls ever and she actually likes you!" Of course, finding an exciting partner is a very good experience, and everyone would like that. But Jefferson was plumbing deeper water, drawing on John Locke's

"In A Letter Concerning Toleration, he wrote that the magistrate's power was limited to preserving a person's "civil interest", which he described as "life, liberty, health, and indolency of body; and the possession of outward things". He declared in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding that "the highest perfection of intellectual nature lies in a careful and constant pursuit of true and solid happiness." [snatched from the jaws of Wikipedia]

.

Some of these good things are granted to us--life--and others are obtained collectively--liberty, health and the 'indolence' (ease, comfort, or pleasure) of the body. Striving to obtain these good things individually and collectively is the first part of happiness; actually obtaining and enjoying them is the second part.

So, sure -- one part of happiness is (privately) feeling good. And the other part is being productively and publicly engaged.

Spiritually grounding by shutting off all the media — Paul S

The benefit of shutting off the media can't be over-stated. The various 'platforms' used to interact are not designed to be beneficial to us (even if they can be). They are designed to generate traffic and exploit us to make money.

The implication is that at worst they are a direct weapon used against us, at best, indirectly at us. Neither scenario is favorable!. If a moderator tries to attach some integer value to these conversations we are having, it might be time to move on! ;) So far this place is ok. Touch wood

Happiness is the result of positive contrast.

Recently, it's been bitterly cold. Day after day, bone chilling cold. Then the weather broke and the temperature rose to 13'C.

Still pretty cold? Hell, no! It was like the Bahamas.

That's how happiness works.

Fleeting moments of positive contrast.

If happiness results in sadness, why be happy? — synthesis

YES, but does happiness always result directly in sadness? Does any particular emotion or mood state necessarily follow another? It seems to me that what could follow immediately in the wake of a happy period is complacency, boredom, sadness, contentment , or myriad other states. By the same token, contentment could be followed by sadness , happiness , boredom, etc.
Another argument in favor of going for happiness depends on whether you can buy into the idea that happiness is connected with personal growth. , that is , that pleasant experience is associated in some small way with more or less lasting positive changes in one’s self-understanding and approach to life. In fact Madison Ave has caught onto this way of marketing. They discovered that Millennials in particular are less interested in possessions than in meaningful experiences, so everything becomes an experience ( shopping experience, internet experience). If there’s truth to this way of looking at happiness , the. even if a particular bout of happiness is followed by sadness , it’s not a zero sum game and in the long run, going as aggressively as possible for the happiness of self-transformative growth will be a better strategy than settling for caution.

YES, but does happiness always result directly in sadness? — Joshs

Here's one of the great all-time examples of this cycle...

...Monday (sucks), Tuesday (a bit better), Wednesday (hump day), Thursday (it's Friday tomorrow), Friday (TGIF), Saturday (Yeah!!), Sunday (oh no, tomorrow is Monday)...

So, sure -- one part of happiness is (privately) feeling good. And the other part is being productively and publicly engaged. — Bitter Crank

The example doesn't matter. It holds regardless. Any movement towards the "positive" must have an equal movement back towards the "negative," i.e., there's no free lunch :).

I used the example I did because it's generally one to which nearly everyone can relate.

What to you, would be happiness. It wouldn't be anything you've experienced because then you'd know or at least be able to rationalize why not everything is so simple. I've posted this a good two times (actually probably only one here), in fact I summed it up quite well previously, though again it could be a simple parroted derivative of the piece I'm about to show, but...



No not everything can be reduced or explained in a sentence, a few, or even a video, but- when it comes to things that have been omnipresent since the beginning of time, sometimes people manage to peg one or more things down.

...Monday (sucks), Tuesday (a bit better), Wednesday (hump day), Thursday (it's Friday tomorrow), Friday (TGIF), Saturday (Yeah!!), Sunday (oh no, tomorrow is Monday)... — synthesis

Yeah, but what about orgasm? Intense pleasure morphs into deep relaxation(depending on who you’re with, of course) and then maybe sleep. No necessary transition to sadness or letdown

Any movement towards the "positive" must have an equal movement back towards the "negative — synthesis

Why? How? Where did this come from?

What to you, would be happiness. It wouldn't be anything you've experienced because then you'd know or at least be able to rationalize why not everything is so simple. — Outlander

To me, happiness is a feeling people get when they believe something good (or positive) has happened in their behalf. It is more often then not mere illusion and melds quite nice with my favorite aphorism from Mark Twain...

"Some of the worst things in my life never happened."

Yeah, but what about orgasm? Intense pleasure morphs into deep relaxation(depending on who you’re with, of course) and then maybe sleep. No necessary transition to sadness or letdown — Joshs

It would be negligent to assume that life is not a cornucopia of things good and bad happening each moment so no one event exists in a vacuum.

On the ledger of good/bad feelings, it all works out.

And besides, if orgasms were the answer, you might have more folks dedicating much of their time to this activity.

Any movement towards the "positive" must have an equal movement back towards the "negative
— synthesis

Why? How? Where did this come from? — Bitter Crank

It seems to be how the Universe works.

So you think that a positive emotion must entail a negative emotion?

This isn't rocket science (we are not dealing with moving masses). The reverse should be true in your scheme that terrible grief should lead to immense happiness, and joy should be followed by sadness. That isn't how my universe works.

In my universe, there is a 'base line' of emotion which is neither positive nor negative; it's neutral. Neutral isn't bad, it's just... in the middle. At rest. Various causes (events, memories, people who stimulate our gonads, nice surprises, bad surprises, people who scare us into action, etc.) stimulate an intensity of emotions which are no longer neutral. Emotions are not as specific as proteins, enzymes, or cell types. Emotions are complex, not simple as in; happy, sad, love, fear, and so forth.

The movement of emotions in my universe is between arousal and rest. Intensely negative emotions once aroused will eventually subside -- not into their opposite, but into their resting state--present but not active.

So you think that a positive emotion must entail a negative emotion?

This isn't rocket science (we are not dealing with moving masses). The reverse should be true in your scheme that terrible grief should lead to immense happiness, and joy should be followed by sadness. That isn't how my universe works. — Bitter Crank

People who have been through really difficult periods in their lives are often able to handle other issues in their lives (going forward) with a much higher degree of skill. In going through these trying periods, people learn to adapt, add skills and coping mechanisms, as well as, have realizations specific to their experiences.

One negative occurrence does not have to immediately follow a positive one (although it can). Sometimes, it may take a lifetime to reveal.

And it is actually how your universe works, you just haven't been around long enough to realize it. This is why everybody should have a natural respect for older people (which used to be the case).

Oh my, where to begin.

First off, I'm happy to know that our members responding to this thread embody this:

What you call contentment I think is a mature understanding of happiness. — Pantagruel

I will not quote them all, but the above should make my point. One cannot have a feeling of contentment without at the same time being happy. But often, I think, we have a misplaced understanding of happiness. By misunderstanding, I mean, we might for example, call infatuation an instance of happiness, or the high we get when we are in a fun activity (clean and dirty, both, lol), when we're at a party that lasts all night, during holidays when we're shopping, getting together with families, and eating our favorite holiday food. These are not cases of happiness. But short-lived enjoyment that we can benefit from, from time to time.

Happiness is a long-term situation, it's a mature understanding of the state of affairs and how nature works, it's acceptance of all this with a feeling of "I'll be okay" or "I'm okay with it". When you reached this moment of acceptance of your condition, you have contentment, and you are 'happy'.

Of course no one says to accept a wretched condition -- if you find yourself in this situation, please do something to get out of it. Contentment requires work. Don't just accept your situation, work on it, until you can honestly tell yourself "I'm okay".