Well, yes, everyone already knows. — jorndoe

Then why did you say it was harmless?

, would you have me clarify something like, yes, life is lethal, but that's not what I meant?

suggests lack of proportional sense

There's no magic :sparkle: spell

Maybe a quick overview of some related history would be worthwhile? Typhoid Mary? The 1918 flu pandemic? Sentiments like some of those expressed here aren't particularly new. History is a fine teacher, has an odd way of repeating itself.



^{Whatever 2021 reports ...
• COVID-19 Vaccines Work. Here’s the Real-World Proof (Feb 24, 2021)
• One Year After Coronavirus Pandemic Declared, How Many Deaths From Covid-19? (Mar 13, 2021)
• Researchers are closing in on long covid (Apr 29, 2021)
• Impact of vaccination on new SARS-CoV-2 infections in the United Kingdom (Jun 9, 2021)
• SARS-CoV-2 Delta VOC in Scotland: demographics, risk of hospital admission, and vaccine effectiveness (Jun 26, 2021)
• States with low vaccination numbers had Covid-19 case rates last week 3 times higher than others where people are fully vaccinated (Jul 12, 2021)
• 'The sky is not falling': Provincetown outbreak shows vaccines work, even against Delta (Jul 30, 2021)
• Natural infection isn't enough to protect against COVID-19, experts say. You still need a vaccine. (Aug 11, 2021)
• San Diego County Covid-19 hospitalizations. (Aug 12, 2021)
• Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to August 7, 2021 (Aug 16, 2021)
• Vaccinations Against COVID-19 May Have Averted Up To 140,000 Deaths In The United States (Aug 18, 2021)}

would you have me clarify something like, yes, life is lethal, but that's not what I meant? — jorndoe

I was looking for honesty. Don't tell people it's harmless. That's not how you build trust. Tell them the truth.

You can’t seem to understand metaphors. And you also say shit like:

The vaccines have already been developed a some time before the genetically manipulated virus was released — Prishon

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re a troll

genetically — Prishon

Which metaphor are you referring to? This is by the way the zillionth time I am called a troll. After which bans followed from: physics (for asking fantasy questions and about the rishon model), biology (just for doubting the central dogma) , philosophy (a Kant guy didnt like my ontological relativism), skeptics, worldbuilding (for being smarter than a mod), economy (for doubt about the growth model), mathematics, astronomy (bad contributions while in reality a mod didnt like my knowledge about black holes), psychology, polotics, law, AI, and now a yearlong networkwide suspension. The argument of the troll is a well known defense mechanism. Is calling me a troll giving me the advantage of the doubt?

Which metaphor are you referring to? — Prishon

Robber to unvaccinated.

Robber wants money without a job, so he steals, and doesn’t care that it harms others.

An unvaccinated person is too scared of a needle (most), so they don’t get vaccinated, and don’t care that it harms others.

After which bans followed from: physics (for asking fantasy questions and about the rishon model), biology (just for doubting the central dogma) , philosophy (a Kant guy didnt like my ontological relativism), skeptics, worldbuilding (for being smarter than a mod), economy (for doubt about the growth model), mathematics, astronomy (bad contributions while in reality a mod didnt like my knowledge about black holes), psychology, polotics, law, AI, and now a yearlong networkwide suspension. The argument of the troll is a well known defense mechanism. — Prishon

Oh God it’s another Bartricks. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you’re not as smart as you pretend when faced with unanimous agreement that you’re a troll?

It kind of boils down to a question of bad advice given honestly can be reckless if it results in harm. The anti-vaxxers in MI are getting sick off of livestock deworming meds. It's like the mind knows some precaution is probably worthwhile(read medical intervention) but can't reconcile that it might be a vaccine cause that requires an identity shift they can't handle. Doubting something and telling some one something are different activities. But, this rhetoric of posing the question; implies an answer is being misunderstood as if it's a positive statement.

handle — Cheshire

A shift in identity? What do you mean by that? Is that a way of saying that "they" should be forced, causing a shift in identity indeed? Whatever one's reason, be it irrational (I just dont want) or hyperrational (giving you a book full with reasons, or arguments, as you probably call them), let them be! Who are you to decide over them? They might be stupid, but do they harm you? If anyone then its themself they harm.

Nah, it ain't. Comment ↑ suggests lack of proportional sense. :eyes: We already know some stuff. — jorndoe

What has knowing 'some stuff' got to do with a claim that the vaccine is harmless and the virus not? Your own citation outlines the very uncertainty I referenced. Your defensiveness betrays your lack of confidence. I wrote a post claiming there's disagreement and you respond by showing that arguments in favour of one side exist. How is that supposed to contradict the proposition that there's disagreement? Obviously, in a disagreement there's going to be two sides, so presenting one of them doesn't tell us anything.

They were conspiracy theorists thinking in terms of mind control or whatever ridiculous nonsense. Now they're dead. :death: RIP. — jorndoe

So still not going to tell me how this differed from motorsports? Both risky, both lead to deaths. Why are motorcyclists entitled to take risks but conspiracy theorists not?

Already spoke to risks. There's no magic :sparkle: spell. Everyone already knows, including WHO.

I call bullshit :point: — jorndoe

Bullshit on what? I gave a direct quote from the associate director of the World Health Organisation which contradicts your article's claim that "mask mandates for vaccinated people are mostly about protecting the unvaccinated". What exactly is bullshit about that?

Nice reply.

Don't tell people it's harmless. That's not how you build trust. Tell them the truth. — frank

Yes. But people already know this, don't they? It's not as if it's some new-found complex aspect of human social behaviour.

There's no interest in persuasion here at all, nothing but pious flag-waiving - if people seriously wanted to convince others to vaccinate, they might want to consider carefully presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility, rather than chanting like a bunch of football hooligans.

The pharmaceutical companies are to blame for all the shit. They manipulated an ordinary Corona virus and let it loose on the world. Hidden safely in their shelters waiting eagerly for the right moment to give the already constructed vaccine to the asking world. To provide a supply. With dollar-filled eyes.

There's no interest in persuasion here at all, nothing but pious flag-waiving - if people seriously wanted to convince others to vaccinate, they might want to consider carefully presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility, rather than chanting like a bunch of football hooligans. — Isaac

Yes. I know a guy whose teen was vaccinated and something went awry with his heart. They don't know yet if it will clear up or if it's permanent.

Never lie to people about possible adverse side effects. They need to weigh the facts for themselves.

I'm not sure where vaccination for children is, this date 24 Aug. 2021. It looks like not for children 12 and under. But they're going back to school. Everyone should get ready - those who have not already done so - to kiss some of their loved ones goodbye, or maybe wave at them through glass as they go. Covid in schools like mosquitos in a swamp.

honesty — frank

... matters. (y)

There's no interest in persuasion here at all, nothing but pious flag-waiving - if people seriously wanted to convince others to vaccinate, they might want to consider carefully presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility, rather than chanting like a bunch of football hooligans. — Isaac

The information is available, there's just no accounting for stupidity, and mis/dis/mal-information.

What has knowing 'some stuff' got to do with a claim that the vaccine is harmless and the virus not? Your own citation outlines the very uncertainty I referenced. — Isaac

Already clarified once, here "harmless" isn't the same as "something you never interact with", suspects listed included allergy, blood clotting, adverse reactions in some children. Not playing a semantics game where you decontextualize and seemingly pretend to not understand.

Your defensiveness betrays your lack of confidence — Isaac

Mind-reading? Bullshit again. (not that it matters, but most people around here, including me, have been double-vaccinated)

entitled to take risks — Isaac

You're entitled to think you can fly and safely jump off a skyscraper, and that governments have crafted mind-control with vaccines. I don't think there's any particular law against stupidity, and that's what father and son were - stupid. Emphasized now if it wasn't clear in the original comment:

I guess ... something ... runs in that family. — jorndoe

Is it worthwhile repeating what others have already pointed out?

Placing myself at risk is one thing. Placing others at risk is another. — James Riley

Some have just had it with the seemingly endless conspiracy theories and ignorance.

_{• How Typhoid Mary left a trail of scandal and death (Apr 20, 2020) - history is a fine teacher
• Study Finds More COVID-19 Cases Among Viewers Of Fox News Host Who Downplayed Pandemic (May 4, 2020)
• Their Patients Have COVID-19 and Still Think It’s a Hoax - Nurses treating coronavirus skeptics are being spit on and harassed. Many want to quit. (Nov 25, 2020)
• Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)
• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
• The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot (Jul 25, 2021)
• The vaccinated are angry. That's understandable but unproductive, health experts say (Aug 8, 2021)
• Vaccine Outrage: Why the Delta Variant’s ‘Sudden Doom Effect’ Is Making Us Snap (Aug 10, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021) - I suppose this was to be expected eventually
• Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 19, 2021) - let them cool off behind bars for a bit with drug dealers
• An Alabama doctor watched patients reject the coronavirus vaccine. Now he’s refusing to treat them. (Aug 18, 2021) - maybe a bit heavyhanded but making a point}

:D

God hates masks. They violate the first commandment which is to remember his glory. And what is more glorious than his image which is reflected in man, who he made in that glorious image. God wants his full image on full display. That little drape of cloth that covers the expression of his image casts the world into darkness. — Kyle D Mallester

Resurrection School students took the message to heart, many of them showing up naked for classes the next day. — Phillip T Stephens

Catholic School Opens Nudity Door (Jul 22, 2021)

At press time, Ackrite refused to answer whether or not she had emptied her bowels on the living room floor, arguing that her refusal to divulge such information was protected by the courts.

Toddler Cites Freedom Of Choice In Refusal To Use Potty (Aug 11, 2021)

Placing myself at risk is one thing. Placing others at risk is another. — James Riley

How do you place others at risk by non-vaxxin? It's only yourself you put at risk. And other non-vaxxers. But that should be no problem as you know how they are like. Just like you! Not wanting a load or shot.

:rofl:

From twitter: "I'm not sure there is a non-condescending way to say 'Stop eating horse dewormer.'"

How do you place others at risk by non-vaxxin? — Prishon

I'm beginning to think, like others have opined, that you might be a troll. At first I understood the inability to use the forum tech. After all, I'm no tech guy myself. Then I thought it was your fat fingers on your cell, as you suggested. But there's something more than typos here. Finally, I thought that maybe English wasn't your first language and that maybe you sounded like a fool for that reason. After all, you're a physics guy so you can't be stupid. It must be the language thing. But when you are patently obstinate, I'm inclined to put you on my informal, personal block list. Hmmm. I guess I'll hide and watch.

God forbids idoltry (am I writing this correct?). All people should wear masks all tbe time. Only three tiny holes are allowed (five for those with astma).

This is a debating platform, not a blog. If you don't intend to answer any of the issues put to you then there's little point posting.

— James Riley

Others? Only one bloke who didnt catch my thoughts. I cant help it if he doesnt understand.

— James Riley

Please put me on your personal block. I have put you there already. I cant argue with fat stupidity...

:ok:

:lol:

There's no interest in persuasion here at all, nothing but pious flag-waiving - if people seriously wanted to convince others to vaccinate, they might want to consider carefully presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility, rather than chanting like a bunch of football hooligans. — Isaac

Is this what you're on about? Persuasion? (Btw, "flag-waiving" should totally be a thing.)

Why? There is a sliver of the population that is well-educated and has made an informed judgment of the risks; are you interested in convincing them they have overlooked a piece of evidence or made an error in reasoning? Or perhaps in agreeing that their choice is reasonable given their circumstances?

How would you talk to these folks? Arkansas Town Hall

I for one am not optimistic about the chances for success in "presenting the scientific evidence on risk, or addressing the moral arguments on responsibility" in Siloam Springs, Arkansas.

A third or so of the population of the United States wants a return to what we used to call the Dark Ages. Maybe with cellphones and cable TV, but otherwise, the Dark Ages. We have managed, so far, to keep them from turning the US into a Christian State, but sadly the Christian bubble they live in is not proof against viruses, so their behavior does affect the public health of the nation as a whole.

It wasn't supposed to be like this.

What's the difference between having a well founded and most rational argument for non-vaxxin and just not wanting it?

Distribution of a potentially harmful argument that others mistake for medical advice.

Do you mean the non-vaxxers who hold arguments?

Is this what you're on about? Persuasion? — Srap Tasmaner

Do you mean on this whole thread or just in response to @jorndoe? I've written such a lot on this thread, it's hard to keep track of who I've spoken to and who I've not, nor who's read what of the stuff I've written previously.

There is a sliver of the population that is well-educated and has made an informed judgment of the risks; are you interested in convincing them they have overlooked a piece of evidence or made an error in reasoning? Or perhaps in agreeing that their choice is reasonable given their circumstances? — Srap Tasmaner

The latter perhaps more so here.

How would you talk to these folks? — Srap Tasmaner

I don't think I would. They need a preacher or a TV celebrity to do it. Point is probably no-one needs to. We don't need 100% vaccination and there's other countries need the vaccines far more urgently. It's absolutely clear. The developing world has lower than 10% take up, the idea that people (as those I'm disputing with here) are 'fighting the good fight' trying to combat vaccine hesitancy is absurd (hence the accusation of pious flag-waiving). It's pointless and obviously so. Anyone remotely concerned about the progress of the pandemic would immediately direct all their vitriol and twittering at the pharmaceutical companies and governments who are preventing the fair distribution of vaccines, not the idiots who think it hooks them up to China's 5G. But the latter are easier targets.