If some government went barmy and demanded something of me I didn't want to give it, the government is going to win, hands down every time, my .22 hunting rifle is no match for fully armed AFOs, let alone the army. — Isaac

Civilians with guns are not going to stop the US military, ... — Maw

Peasants with guns have been besting professional militaries for decades (throughout all of human history, really), including the US military on several occasions.

And fighting against a guerilla on your own soil, against your own people? A modern military wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how much barbarism it is willing to resort to.

Laying waste to someone else's country and people is one thing, laying waste to your own - that'll be the end of whatever nation was so foolish to try.

Peasants with guns have been besting professional militaries for decades (throughout all of human history, really), including the US military on several occasions.

And fighting against a guerilla on your own soil, against your own people? A modern military wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how much barbarism it is willing to resort to. — Tzeentch

If you are going to use historical precedence to justify your argument you ought to look at actual examples of US militia fighting against and being defeated by superior federal forces. US militia uprising are not the Viet Cong. They are not the Taliban. Otherwise, the argument that 2A is a viable bulwark against some sort of abstract military takeover remains a vague hypothetical in contradistinction to the tangible and on-going problem of gun violence and mass shootings that currently plague the country. We are sacrificing tens of thousands of lives to firearms each year in order to shelter an adult fantasy.

If you are going to use historical precedence to justify your argument you ought to look at actual examples of US militia fighting against and being defeated by superior federal forces. — Maw

Waco started this war. Hopefully, Oklahoma would end it. The only way they’re going to feel something, the only way they’re going to get the message is, quote, with a body count. — McVeigh in prison in 2001

:o Ough ... chilling.

When mass shootings occur, somehow the debate is always about gun control and never about why kids are massacring kids.

It's not normal, obviously. I would be wondering what kind of rot has seeped into society that's causing it. — Tzeentch

Whatever it may be, you can be certain even less will be done to correct it than is done to control guns. It's not the government's problem to find out why kids are massacring kids and do something about it, is it?

Peasants with guns have been besting professional militaries for decades (throughout all of human history, really), including the US military on several occasions.

And fighting against a guerilla on your own soil, against your own people? A modern military wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how much barbarism it is willing to resort to. — Tzeentch

Presumably you'd have some evidence for this conclusion?

Honestly I don't disagree. The firearm obsession in the US has gotten to the point where I personally avoid engaging the issue for the most part, knowing the sorts of kneejerk defensive reactions it will provoke from some people. Of course that doesn't mean I'll just sit by while others like Agent Smith attempt to mischaracterize what the "real problem" is, which was why I felt like responding.

Laws have been passed and presidents elected in the US with less popular support. — Benkei

Cause that's the way that things are designed in the US. It's the policies with broad support that are usually the most difficult to pass.

When mass shootings occur, somehow the debate is always about gun control and never about why kids are massacring kids. — Tzeentch

Really? The Governer and Lt. Governer of Texas are talking about mental health problems today. Not that they'll do anything about it, but they'd rather talk about this than the fact that the only recent changes to Texas gun laws were to make it even easier to buy one.

We are sacrificing tens of thousands of lives to firearms each year in order to shelter an adult fantasy. — Maw

It's not just the fantasy of being able to take on the U.S. military that's disturbing, it's that the fantasists believe they represent or could ever represent 'the people' rather than a small minority of extremists thereamong. This invalid self-identification also serves to extirpate as non-people the real enemy, the democratic majority, who disagrees with them, and highlight that it's democracy per se their guns are aimed at.

If you are going to use historical precedence to justify your argument you ought to look at actual examples of US militia fighting against and being defeated by superior federal forces. US militia uprising are not the Viet Cong. They are not the Taliban. Otherwise, the argument that 2A is a viable bulwark against some sort of abstract military takeover remains a vague hypothetical in contradistinction to the tangible and on-going problem of gun violence and mass shootings that currently plague the country. We are sacrificing tens of thousands of lives to firearms each year in order to shelter an adult fantasy. — Maw

Hear hear.

"Guns flow in this country like water, and that's why we have mass shooting after mass shooting, and, you know, spare me the bullshit about mental illness. We don't have any more mental illness than any other country in the world. You cannot explain this through a prism of mental illness because we're not an outlier on mental illness, we're an outlier when it comes to access to firearms and the ability of criminals and very sick people to get their hands on firearms. That's what makes America different."

Chris Murphy

How did things get this out of hand? And secondly, how much more government redundancy and representation is needed to make Americans feel safe regarding our democracy? — TiredThinker

Enthusiasts want guns for self-protection, hunting, or because it's a fun hobby. The claim that it's to prevent tyranny is cover, to provide a facade of nobility to their hobby, and it's utter nonsense.

How did things get out of hand? NRA propaganda played a big part. They created the memes that created the sense of self-righteousness so many have.

**There's a thread on this topic, this one should be merged.**

What can take most of the guns out of circulation? — TiredThinker

A miracle.

We are caught in a whirlpool of violence in which gang members are arrested for gun crimes, then processed and released back into the streets. Most gun ownership is not promulgated by a desire to keep the federal government in check, but for feeling a need to protect oneself and one's family from lethal criminal attacks. I know, all those statistics about suicide and accidental shootings. But the cops usually aren't there when the crime occurs, they can only pick up the pieces of carnage and seek the culprit.

I used to support gun rights, but today, I will say if we want to protect ourselves as natural, wild creatures, we can use our flits or knives (you will die more slowly and less possible to die).

That's fair. I was just more using your post as a jumping-off point.

---

In general, for all the talk, one thing can be sure: nothing will change. Until it is accepted that nothing will change, nothing will change.

Another school shooting will happen within at least 3 months. More children are already dead, they just don't know it yet.

Let's not control anything, guns or whatever else; let's free our minds! I think the effect is gonna be the same (less violence, but the way we're gonna make that happen, awesome!!)



:snicker:

Yesterday, I saw the news of a school kid who killed 20 people at school. Why does this happen so "often" in the USA? In Canada, the number of guns per capita is even higher than in the states. But the number of homicides a lot lower.

The solution is to concentrate more power in the hands of the state. We need policemen to take away the guns so that only the good guys like cops and government agents have them. That's the vision the founders had; a castrated country where only the state decides who gets to own and use firearms. Maybe if you play nice and let them check your butt they'll let you have an airsoft gun, just make sure to get your application in on time and do whatever the nice man with the badge tells you.

The shooter had no criminal record or mental health history.

In Canada, the number of guns per capita is even higher than in the states. — Jarjar

It's definitely not. Canada has 34.7, the USA has 120.5 (from 2017).

Then it has considerably increased since I saw Michael Moore's documentary. He entered Canada and an interviewed Canadian said he always felt relief when coming back from the US. It was said the number of guns was comparable. Now you can compare everything, that's true... Especially Michael Moore.

So in Canada the number is about four times as small. Is the number homicides per year four times bigger in the USA? In Canada, about 800 murders are committed annually. What about the USA? 3200?

The miserable bit of silver lining coming out of this is the enormous outpouring of venomous hate being rightly directed towards police in the wake of the mass child murder.

This is what happens when children are not private property or capital.

you know shit is hitting the fan when even mainstream news like NYT, CNN, AP etc. are questioning what happened with security forces.

I think they will 'bad apples' this in the end. The solution will be - more funding and more police in schools. They can't do anything else.

I dream that I am proven wrong.

Nothing will change. That was obvious 10 years ago. So don’t look for it.

It was then that our elected “leaders” decided gun manufacturing sales were more important than childrens’ lives.

So like everything else in this stupid country, we’ll have to keep waiting for things to get so bad that to do nothing will trigger a mass revolt. I’m thinking something like a Sandy Hook every week. That may work. A few months/years is apparently too long an interim. But who knows? Maybe every day is needed.

Same with climate change, incidentally. Evidently once-in-a-generation storms, floods, wildfires, droughts, and temperatures isn’t quite “rock bottom” enough.

You have to be in awe of the power of ruling class propaganda.

i checked the past two pages of this thread and the only proposed solution outside of the empty moralizing was this:

(more extensive background checks, barring guns to mentally ill) — Benkei

1) how much more extensive? in what way are our current background checks insufficient? the texas shooter had no criminal record nor documented mental health issues. should everyone who wants to buy a gun get a psychologist sent to their homes for an evaluation?

2) background checks already bar those iirc (i have been through 5) voluntarily or involuntarily committed to mental institutions. but outside of what qualifies as mentally ill? should be the bipolar not be able to own guns? how about the depressed? has anyone considered that such a law might discourage the mentally ill from seeking care?

The "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" crew starting to filter in I see.

just say you want to take our guns already. let the bootlickers show themselves.

Just say you want more dead children already.

Anyway I don't think the gubberment should take anyone's guns except in one single case: they should absolutely take the guns of anyone who is worried about the government taking their guns. There should be a questionare with a single question that reads: "are you worried about the government taking your guns?", and anyone who ticks yes gets their guns taken from them permanently. Literally everyone else can keep the guns.

To be fair I am pessimistic that gun control, absent any coupling with deeper, structural social change, will be very effective. Left activists rightly point out that the selective nature of policing in the States means that gun control will largely be used as an additional weapon to target minorities and the poor. Which historically has been the case. But at this point, take all of the fucking AR-15s and smelt them then pour the molten down the throats of conservatives.