Please explain how Buddhism can pull one towards Christ. Genuinely curious and not trying to start a quibble. I just don't see it.

Perhaps Judaism (I'm exploring this question now) but it's interesting how you mention Hillel who's a famous Jewish thinker but not Judaism/the OT itself. Modern Judaism awaits the messiah. I've never heard Hillel described as a Christian apologist but my knowledge of the man is limited.

I think other books outside the ones you mention could potentially pull towards Christianity. Book of Daniel for instance references a "son of man" but the translation is of course contentious. Christians sometimes cite Jeremiah as referencing the coming of Christ. I believe Jeremiah 31:31.

Interesting how Sirach didn't make the cut for the Jewish canon. I haven't read it but I'd be interested to see how it compares to Proverbs.

Christianity was influenced by and borrowed extensively from virtually every philosophy and religion popular in the Roman Empire. I would think Neo-Platonism influenced it more than Platonism at least early on, and would add some Cynicism to the mix, as well as some of the beliefs of the Gnostic sects and the Hermetic tradition.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pull one towards Christ."

I'm not sure what you mean by "pull one towards Christ." — Ciceronianus

Proselytizing thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pull one towards Christ." — Ciceronianus

That all roads lead to Christ I suppose. Shouldn't be a shocking conclusion based upon:

As a Christian I believe that Christ is the fulfillment of truth. — Dermot Griffin

I guess the "pull" may be a reference to "fishers of men" but if so, I don't think of the systems of thought listed as being in the nature of bait for that purpose.

Primarily through the ethical teachings. The Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path provide a similar moral framework to that of Christianity. I am also going to point to the figure of Maitreya, the Buddhist messiah. Who’s to say it isn’t Christ? Again, just my opinion.

Just curious: Why would you come to a philosophy forum to preach your religion?

RE: Gateway-philosophies to Christianity
SUBTOPIC:
※→ emancipate; et al,

I agree. Most of the time, the Westerners don't understand it at all.



Depending on who you listen to, you might get a story like this:

{EXCERPT} t is significant of the degree of their ignorance that the story of the Buddha filtered through in such a garbled form that the founder of Buddhism was believed to be two godly persons, Barlaam and Joasaph, who were duly canonized as saints in the Eastern Church and were venerated as such.
SOURCE: Encyclopedia of World Religions, © 1974 BPC Publishing Company 30 North Terrace, Kent, Australia

The idea "probably" being that if you follow the Saints (canonized) you come closer to the ascended.
Most Respectfully,
R

Not “preaching” anything. Simply interested in exploring the connections between classical philosophy and Christianity is all. Idc what religion anyone is.

Wasn’t thinking of an analogy like that but it’s interesting. In short I think that the concept of Logos applied to God becoming Jesus, in a Kierkegaardian sense, is interesting. That’s why I see all the aforementioned schools of thought as pointers to Christianity but that’s just an opinion. One could study Stoicism and become Buddhist. One could study Platonism and find himself a practicing Hindu and so on.

If all roads "lead to Rome" then it must be a static fixed dead place. Not a location that is so dynamic and fluid that, it changes by the time you perceive it.

If all roads point to Rome then its quite possible Rome is pointing to these roads.

Therefore it shouldn't be hard to see one can discard the location and the roads, can one do it? Break the box? The God box or the Atheist Box? Let's say the box of any/all beliefs?

However, I really believe that there are other systems of thought that predate the church can pull one towards Christ if the individual lets himself. — Dermot Griffin

That is true. Socrates could be seen as a pre-Christian martyr, for example. But let's not get carried away. Early Christian thought and theology was heavily influenced by texts and philosophies that already existed. It's perhaps not surprising that the New Testament is packed with fulfillments of ancient prophecies. Christianity is not alone in this. Newton stood on the shoulders of giants. It's not so amazing that Copernicus and Kepler foreshadowed Newton or that Archimedes came within a whisker of inventing calculus, missing the mark by only a couple of thousand years.

Preach on brother.

Just curious: Why would you come to a philosophy forum to preach your religion? — Jackson

Not “preaching” anything. Simply interested in exploring the connections between classical philosophy and Christianity is all. Idc what religion anyone is. — Dermot Griffin

Preach on brother. — Jackson

Disguising pejoratives by calling it "curiosity" doesn't make it any less evident. Anything wrong with your attitude here? Who the heck are you to question his intents or his right to post here or any other forum he so pleases. For a 5 month old account you talk big. How many accounts you have in this forum? Where does your authority to talk to him like this or to censor him come from? And how did you come to the conclusion one cannot include religion in discussions of philosophy? Perhaps you might consider working on releasing whatever is stuck inside you, or chances are someone may take it out for you.

In short I think that the concept of Logos applied to God becoming Jesus, in a Kierkegaardian sense, is interesting. That’s why I see all the aforementioned schools of thought as pointers to Christianity but that’s just an opinion. One could study Stoicism and become Buddhist. One could study Platonism and find himself a practicing Hindu and so on. — Dermot Griffin

With the exception of the short mention of the Logos at the beginning of the Gospel ascribed to John, the last Gospel written, there's nothing connecting the Logos as defined by the ancient pagan philosophers with Jesus (I confess I haven't read Kierkegaard, who has always struck me as too distraught for my taste). I think it's likely its mention in that Gospel is part of a later development in the history of Christianity, along with its claim that belief in Christ is the exclusive means by which we can approach God.

Why do people come to a philosophy forum to discuss religion?

Early Christian thought and theology was heavily influenced by texts and philosophies that already existed. It's perhaps not surprising that the New Testament is packed with fulfillments of ancient prophecies. — Cuthbert

No question. And another way some people look at this is to see Christianity as a derivative belief system that has cannibalized and borrowed from other religions and mystery cults to manufacture yet another faith system.

As I understand it, the exclusion of other views of the divine characterizes the Pauline version of Christianity.
So, the question of what might be seen as included has the problem of being cast out at the beginning..

I really believe that there are other systems of thought that predate the church can pull one towards Christ if the individual lets himself. — Dermot Griffin

I don't believe that Buddhists would agree there would be any soteriological benefit to them in revering Christ. In this verse from the Pali scriptures, the Buddha, after the Awakening, wonders to whom he owes 'reverence or deference'. However, he reflects, it would be 'for the sake of perfecting and unperfected aggregate of virtue' (rather an awkward translation, I admit) that he would revere or defer to another. But he sees no other brahman or contemplative 'more consummate in virtue', so concludes that the only thing which deserves reverence is 'this very dhamma' to which he has fully awakened.

I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One [the Buddha] was newly Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "One suffers if dwelling without reverence or deference. Now on what brahman or contemplative can I dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him?"

Then the thought occurred to him: "It would be for the sake of perfecting an unperfected aggregate of virtue that I would dwell in dependence on another brahman or contemplative, honoring and respecting him. However, in this world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans and contemplatives, its royalty and common-folk, I do not see another brahman or contemplative more consummate in virtue than I, on whom I could dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him. ...

..."What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" — Garava Sutta: Reverence

Christianity was influenced by and borrowed extensively from virtually every philosophy and religion popular in the Roman Empire. — Ciceronianus

That's pretty generous.

Christianity actively demolished the philosophical schools of Athens and Alexandria, destroyed philosophical texts and persecuted teachers of philosophy. The detrimental impact of the Christin hegemony on intellectual life was not reversed for a thousand years. The classical texts were so utterly destroyed in Europe that they had to be "rediscovered" in the east, mostly from Islamic sources.

It is foolish to do away with what is good in other systems of thinking. — Dermot Griffin

Indeed.

Christianity actively demolished the philosophical schools of Athens and Alexandria, destroyed philosophical texts and persecuted teachers of philosophy. The detrimental impact of the Christin hegemony on intellectual life was not reversed for a thousand years. The classical texts were so utterly destroyed in Europe that they had to be "rediscovered" in the east, mostly from Islamic sources. — Banno

Trashing that shit and corruption was for the good of humanity. Look at how much further we are ahead today, in our knowledge, than if we would have kept up the ancient Greek traditions.

I appreciate the defense. I think it’s crucial to examine connections between philosophy and religion (hence why I posted this topic in the “Philosophy of religion” section). It’s evident that “proselytizing” is not something that I’m for. In fact, I’m openly against. There’s a verse in the Old Testament regarding this (I think in Exodus and this gets restated again in the Prophets but I’ll have to look back). The morality behind proselytizing is a whole other discussion, though.

And personally I don’t know of all roads lead to Rome. When Christianity entered China one could say it was a union between Jerusalem and Khanbaliq (or rather “Beijing”). When it entered India there was a union between Jerusalem and Magadha. What’s interesting about Christianity is that it adopts whatever culture it mixes with, not destroying what is good.

Christianity actively demolished the philosophical schools of Athens and Alexandria, destroyed philosophical texts and persecuted teachers of philosophy. — Banno

Longing for the good old days of pervasive ableism, classism, misogyny, and pederasty? Those evil Christians! /s

If you ain't doing your basics right then you will get what is coming to you.

:100:

If you ain't doing your basics right then you will get what is coming to you. — Moses

Yes, things haven't changed much since the fifth century C.E. monk Shenoute said "There is no crime for those who have Christ." Better get your mind right.

The absence of any appreciation of irony is impressive.

What’s interesting about Christianity is that it adopts whatever culture it mixes with, not destroying what is good. — Dermot Griffin

Just ask any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. But perhaps there was nothing good there before the Christians arrived.

Heraclitus
Platonism
Pythagoreanism
Aristotelianism
Stoicism
Confucianism
Daoism
Buddhism
Vedantism
Nyaya
Zoroastrianism
Sapiential Books of the Bible (Psalms, Proverbs, Sirach, Wisdom, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes)
Hillel the Elder — Dermot Griffin

Funny thing though, Dermot, almost every ex-Christian I've ever met or read was, by their own accounts, "pulled away" – liberated – from the Christianity of their upbringing / education by several of the pre-Christian traditions on your list. Some of my liberators (in the 10th-11th years of my 12 years of excellent Parochial school education) are indicated in bold above.

Christianity actively demolished the philosophical schools of Athens and Alexandria, destroyed philosophical texts and persecuted teachers of philosophy. The detrimental impact of the Christin hegemony on intellectual life was not reversed for a thousand years. The classical texts were so utterly destroyed in Europe that they had to be "rediscovered" in the east, mostly from Islamic sources. — Banno

Yes, though the schools weren't formally closed by edict until Justinian. But things became especially bad for pagans--and of course Christians deemed to be heretics--starting with the reign of the first Theodosius.

I think that the Latin western part of the Empire and the Roman successor states there, and the medieval kingdoms of Western Europe, were especially "cleansed" of pagan knowledge and culture. I attribute that in large part to Augustine, who, after some waffling, condemned the pagan philosophers though they couldn't have known of Christ, and of course popularized the notion of original sin.

I'm not a Christian. I'm not here to defend all things Christian, but the more I look into ancient Greek culture and philosophy and literature the grosser it becomes.

It's like the opposite of the Judeo-Christian tradition; the Greeks on their surface look decent but dive in a little deeper and it's a hard pass. The bible looks terrible on its surface but dive in a little deeper and it becomes more palatable.

What’s interesting about Christianity is that it adopts whatever culture it mixes with, not destroying what is good. — Dermot Griffin

I'm not sure what you are saying is supported by history. But as you might know i have no skin in the religion-anti religion game so i will leave this subject alone. My concern is something else and i have mentioned it in the last para of my initial post.