Indeed the (mathematical) method I propose is far from perfect, but it's much better than what we have at present - wild shots in the dark! — Agent Smith
There’s something else going on here too. Where the already existing people can’t help but try to endure the stress of existence, by putting a new person in the fray, it’s creating yet more harm and harm-overcoming upon someone else in order to try to fix the current problems. The ultimate case of using people. — schopenhauer1
But it’s even worse cause it’s combining the two. I’m having a problem, therefore I will force recruit yet more people into the pyramid scheme operation that creates another person to endure harm itself. It actually solves nothing but to further continue the creating of victims. — schopenhauer1
What I sought to convey was that procreation breaks some rules that many procreators themselves would consider the basics of moral interaction between individuals. — Tzeentch
Go ahead and argue that not causing irreversible harm to others without their consent isn't a basic moral belief most people hold. — Tzeentch
I'll give you that. :up: — Tzeentch
I think suffering is inherent to life. It even seems to be inherent to happiness (does happiness still have meaning without suffering to contrast it to?). — Tzeentch
I think the objection would be that many here believe us not just to be victims, but also beneficiaries. Would that change the nature of the pyramid scheme? — Tzeentch
More of the antinatalist goalpost shifting. — Isaac
How are we to judge what matters morally - intention or outcome? Pick one and then we can have a discussion about how it relates to antinatalism. Keep shifting which depending on the argument and discussion become impossible.
I think suffering is inherent to life. It even seems to be inherent to happiness (does happiness still have meaning without suffering to contrast it to?).
I genuinely cannot imagine what a life without any pain looks like, and I wonder if it wouldn't make the whole ordeal more meaningless? — Tzeentch
The decision to procreate is always one of force recruiting. — schopenhauer1
I think your neo-liberal hyper-individualism has been quite well expounded. I have no problem with the logic of your conclusion, given the premise that we are all selfish bastards who ought have no obligation at all to look after each other. I think it quite satisfying, in fact, that if one posits such a culture the logical conclusion is that it ought to wipe itself out. — Isaac
Are we really coming down to nothing more than that the antinatalists want to be able to morally judge others but don't want others morally judging them?
You get to judge us for our actions, but your inaction is off limits and whatever your reasons are must be assumed good. — Isaac
The antinatalism vs. natalism debate can be resolved if we can actually calculate the probability of someone being happy/sad with life. The math will speak for itself I believe. — Agent Smith
If you're born and you don't like life, you can always kill yourself — Agent Smith
Insofar as an existing person maladaptively interprets / relates to her environment, she suffers. — 180 Proof
Of course it was, and still is, maladaptive. They were mistaken and consequently acted on that mistake. Short-term efficacy – scapegoating, genocide – at the expense of long-term sustainability (i.e. forming habits / institutions for 'othering' even their own because (some believe) "that is a way to end their suffering").For example, once certain people decided that the way to end their suffering was to kill all the Jews. And for at least some time, it worked. Per your formula, that _wasn't_ maladaptive. — baker
If you're born and you don't like life, you can always kill yourself
— Agent Smith
This is what is so dismal about the pronatalists.
If life is so great, why can't they give a good reason for it? Why the exhortation to kill yourself if you don't like it? Why the implying that you're mentally ill if you have second thoughts about having children? — baker
pain now for glory later. — Agent Smith
But people who procreate don't typically seem to see it that way. What do you make of that? — baker
But many natalists are doing the exact same thing. Just look at the severe judgment with which the antinatalists on this forum are being met. — baker
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.