Perspective on Karma

ThinkOfOne

"You make your own karma". For the most part, seems like the current concept of karma is as a system of reward and punishment wherein "good deeds" are rewarded and "bad deeds" are punished. In conjunction with reincarnation, individuals ultimately get "what they deserve". Even if it takes many lifetimes. As with the Christian "trinity", I've yet to come across an explanation of karma's workings that holds water.

That said, from what I gather the original concept of karma was stated in the following:
Now as a man is like this or like that,
according as he acts and according as he behaves, so will he be:
a man of good acts will become good, a man of bad acts, bad.
He becomes pure by pure deeds, bad by bad deeds.
And here they say that a person consists of desires.
And as is his desire, so is his will;
and as is his will, so is his deed;
and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.
---- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5-6

Now we're getting into something…

Essentially the concept is that the unconscious mind is conditioned by ones thoughts and actions. And, most importantly, it can be reconditioned. Ultimately ones unconscious mind is the result of self-conditioning.

As an example, desire for salt or sugar works this way. Some years ago I had pretty much cut out salty foods from my diet. About six month later, my employer provided box lunches that included a bag of potato chips since we were working through. As I'd always loved potato chips, even though it wasn't in my diet, I figured I had the bag, might as well eat them. Upon placing a single chip in my mouth, I wanted to spit it out. It was revolting. Left the rest uneaten. It was really surprising. Prior to this, I'd always really liked salty foods - even often craved them. Chips. Salted nuts. Whatever. Bring them on. I still have no desire for them. A friend of mine said that she had had a similar experience with sugar.

Insofar as I can tell, pretty much all unconscious desires and behaviors work this way.
Seems like most believe their unconscious mind to be largely, if not completely, static. It isn't. "You make your own karma".

Thoughts?

As an aside, one should note the wide gulf between the underlying concepts of the original and the current and ponder the impetus for such a dramatic corruption. A similar wide gulf can be seen between the gospel preached by Jesus during his ministry and the "gospel" believed by the vast majority of Christians.

praxis

Essentially the concept is that the unconscious mind is conditioned by ones thoughts and actions. — ThinkOfOne

That’s quite a leap. How exactly were you able to make it?

And, most importantly, it can be reconditioned. Ultimately ones unconscious mind is the result of self-conditioning.

Obviously it is not the case that our unconscious is ultimately self-conditioned, though we certainly can consciously condition it to an extent.

180 Proof

Essentially the concept is that the unconscious mind is conditioned by ones thoughts and actions. And, most importantly, it can be reconditioned. Ultimately ones unconscious mind is the result of self-conditioning. — ThinkOfOne

I interpret "karma" in a pragmaticist's way (re: Peirce, Dewey): actions-reactions where the reactions are – become – good/bad habits, or virtues/vices (i.e. adaptive/maladaptive), in which the latter are self-immiserating (i.e. "dukkha") in the long run.

praxis

Karma necessarily includes what we have no control over, which in reality is a great deal. Why was I born into a particular set of conditions? Buddhism says it’s the ripening of past karma. Why am I on this jet that’s doomed to crash? Buddhism says it’s the ripening of past karma.

Tom Storm

↪praxis

So if true, what does this matter? Any unfortunate ripening seems to be predestined, right?

ThinkOfOne

↪praxis

That’s quite a leap. How exactly were you able to make it?

I was referring to the underlying concepts of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5-6. How was that "quite a leap"? It's pretty much a distillation of what it says.

Obviously it is not the case that our unconscious is ultimately self-conditioned, though we certainly can consciously condition it to an extent.

How is it "obviously..not the case" in regards to "pretty much all unconscious desires and behaviors"?

Pantagruel

Karma is the law of cause and effect. I always thought it was a pretty straightforward concept.....

Amity

"You make your own karma". For the most part, seems like the current concept of karma is as a system of reward and punishment wherein "good deeds" are rewarded and "bad deeds" are punished. In conjunction with reincarnation, individuals ultimately get "what they deserve". — ThinkOfOne

And that's what I find troubling.
When people only do good for some future reward, not for 'good in itself'.
And some are judged as deserving of their illness or misfortune because they must have been bad in a previous life. 'What goes around comes around'.
The linked concept of reincarnation I find unacceptable.

I interpret "karma" in a pragmaticist's way (re: Peirce, Dewey): actions-reactions where the reactions are – become – good/bad habits, or virtues/vices (i.e. adaptive/maladaptive), in which the latter are self-immiserating (i.e. "dukkha") in the long run. — 180 Proof

That makes more sense to me. A practical life philosophy. Being more of a help than a hindrance.

Can you @180 Proof or anyone explain to me the belief in the 'Karmic banking system'?
@ArguingWAristotleTiff spoke of it recently in the Shoutbox.
It's the first I've heard of it.

Apparently, it is when you make karmic deposits and withdrawals.
The goal is to make as many deposits as possible and as few withdrawals as needed.

How does that work?

praxis

So if true, what does this matter? Any unfortunate ripening seems to be predestined, right? — Tom Storm

It matters because it puts the reasons for your fate in the hands of religious authority. If you question that authority, for instance, that authority may explain that the eventual result of their being questioned by you is you being reborn as a dung beetle. It also matters in regards to social status and upward mobility if you happen to deserve being, for example, an untouchable in the Middle East.

praxis

I was referring to the underlying concepts of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5-6. How was that "quite a leap"? It's pretty much a distillation of what it says. — ThinkOfOne

Because the underlying metaphysics include concepts like the twelve link chain of dependent origination, etc etc.

How is it "obviously..not the case" in regards to "pretty much all unconscious desires and behaviors"? — ThinkOfOne

I might have a better idea of where to begin if you explained more, if only a little.

180 Proof

↪Amity

Sorry, that woo is above my pay grade. :smirk:

Amity

Sorry, that woo is above my pay grade — 180 Proof

You don't know your woo?
I was counting on you :groan:

180 Proof

You don't know your woo?
I was counting on you :groan: — Amity

Well, at least I know what I don't know. :sweat:

Amity

Well, at least I know what I don't know — 180 Proof

Well, at least I now know that you know what you don't know.
Is there anything else that you know that you don't know that I should know? :smirk:

Never mind, it's all a load of bull anyway...but I was trying to keep an open mind and let someone blow the woo mist away. A mystery it can remain :sparkle:

Yohan

Can you 180 Proof or anyone explain to me the belief in the 'Karmic banking system'?
@ArguingWAristotleTiff spoke of it recently in the Shoutbox.
It's the first I've heard of it.

Apparently, it is when you make karmic deposits and withdrawals.
The goal is to make as many deposits as possible and as few withdrawals as needed.

How does that work? — Amity

The less pleasure you indulge in (consume), the more sensitive you become to pleasure, and less is needed to feel pleased, then less resources must be used up for it.

The more pleasure you indulge in (consume beyond need), the more insensitive you become to it, needing more resources to feel pleased, making for a higher cost. Creating a downward spiral of less and less ability to feel pleasure at greater and greater cost.

That model could make for a pretty good hedonic philosophy: The art of deriving maximum pleasure with minimum consequence.

But were you looking for every day example, or were you asking about withdrawing from past lives and depositing for future lives?

Edit (I left out the deposit side... I guess the less one has to use up one's time and resources to satisfy one's carnal needs/desires, the more time/energy can be deposited toward creative things.
So maximum creativity and minimum consumption.)

Amity

↪Yohan

Thank you. That has given me something to think about.
The pleasure angle I hadn't considered.
I'd been thinking along the lines of banking of good deeds for some future reward. Benefit.
And confused about the meaning and method of 'taking as few withdrawals as needed'. Cost.

That model could make for a pretty good hedonic philosophy: The art of deriving maximum pleasure with minimum consequence. — Yohan

Is that karma, though?

But were you looking for every day example, or were you asking about withdrawing from past lives and depositing for future lives? — Yohan

I am looking for what it means in the here and now, the practical world.
For example, how does that fit in with crisis management or counselling?

180 Proof

↪Yohan

Quite Epicurean.

↪Amity

Consider the tetrapharmakos ... or cognitive behavioral therapy.

Amity

Consider the tetrapharmakos ... or cognitive behavioral therapy. — 180 Proof

Yes, that's Greek philosophy and CBT, I understand.
Where is the connection with Karma?

sime

If karma has to be taken seriously, then it is to sensible to identify Karma with causality and then recall the practical impossibility of knowing causal relations with any certainty.

180 Proof

↪Amity

"Karma" means action-reaction (i.e. cause-effect) and, as Yohan points out, the more pleasure gained the more pleasure needed – hedonic treadmill – leading to dissatisfaction (dukkha), or pain (ponia). Both the Epicurean "tetrapharmakos" and "CBT" are methods of managing expectations (i.e. habits of thought which reinforce habits of action-reaction). The analogy works, I think, if you take a naturalistic rather than supernaturalistic view

↪180 Proof

.

Amity

"Karma" means action-reaction (i.e. cause-effect) — 180 Proof

That is a quick, easy and basic definition; virtually meaningless.
There is more to it than that. There is also the element of justice determining who we can be or become in this life, or the next.

The causal relations of personal interactions with a cycle of effects...ad nauseam.
Apparently as transactions in a 'Karmic banking system':

when you make karmic deposits and withdrawals.
The goal is to make as many deposits as possible and as few withdrawals as needed. — Amity

Still puzzling over the withdrawal side of karma.
How are these drawn down and from where?
It sounds like there is a need for a certain type of 'negative' action or reaction?
Is that right @ArguingWAristotleTiff?

I've been searching around and found this:

Karma is like opening a bank account. We have choices on how much money we want to put in to add to our balance, or how much we want to withdraw. We can choose to put different investments that result in interest to increase what we have available in our account. We can also choose to use credit card in which we pay interest on what we spend. The choice is ours to make.

Similarly, we have a karmic account. Each day we can choose whether we want to engage in thoughts, words, and deeds that are going to result in good that comes back to us. We can also engage in thoughts, words, and deeds, for which we must pay the consequences. Beyond creating good and bad karmic accounts, we can also choose to do things that create a balance of zero so that we do not have to return to this world to either reap the benefits or pay the consequences.

Everything we do is recorded in the karmic accounts. There is a strict accounting of our every thought, word, and deed. It is wise to make sure that we do not commit any actions, thoughts or words that can rebound to us with consequence. Instead we must have thoughts, words, and deeds that are good so that good can come back to us.

However, if we are on the spiritual path, we do not want to return to this world to reap the rewards of what we do. There is a better plan. We can do good, but do so without having to come back to reap the rewards. This means we are doing good in the world, but the credit is being passed on to God. We only want to accumulate spiritual benefits and the love and pleasure of God. These are termed acts that are neh-karma or karma-free.

How can this be done? We can have good thoughts, words, and deeds in life but we pass on the credit to God. We do good things because it is the right thing to do, not to make name for ourselves or earn money. We say good things to others because it is the kind and loving thing to do, just out of goodness of our heart, without expecting anything in return. We think good things about others as an expression of the spiritual love we are developing in which we recognise all people as members of the same family of God.

We still do good, but our deeds are selfless without us wanting any material rewards. We do get benefits, but they are of the spirit. These benefits come in the form of spiritual progress, the love of God, earning the pleasure of God, and the burning of our karmas without creating new ones.
— SPIRITUALLY SPEAKINGTHE PRINCIPLES OF KARMIC ACCOUNTING

https://thedailyguardian.com/the-principles-of-karmic-accounting/

So, this is the supernaturalistic or spiritual view not the naturalistic.

I am still puzzled and have questions:

If anyone holds the karmic banking system as a strong belief, how does that fit in with crisis management or counselling?
Is it used as part of the counselling process?
If so, how do you manage the acute mental health crisis of someone who cares nothing for karma?
Or is it more about the trained professional bringing a personal attitude and philosophy of kindness and loving care? In that case, what extra does karma bring to the table?

praxis

In terms of homeostasis, Buddhism and stoicism may be similar though I think the latter may have the view that we are less in control than the former, Buddhism being of a religious nature and therefore including faith (in authority) and a good amount of magical thinking. Stoicism values reason.

180 Proof

There is more to it than that. There is also the element of ~~justice~~ determining who we can be or become in this life, or the next — Amity

Well, from a naturalisric perspective, "the more" is woo-woo ... :sparkle:

sime

If you hold the karmic banking system as a strong belief, how does that fit in with crisis management or counselling?
When you are dealing with someone with an acute mental health problem and who cares nothing for karma? — Amity

My impression of Indian culture before it underwent westernisation, is that it's belief in reincarnation encouraged slower and more sustainable lifestyles, but that it's belief in karmic justice encouraged social neglect of the downtrodden.

Question: To what extent do the metaphysical beliefs of a culture become determined by the practical necessities of it's society? Clearly they must be correlated to a certain extent, but do they converge in the long run?

For example, if modern society is to survive then it needs to adopt environmentally sustainable lifestyles together with long-term ecological investments that will benefit future generations more than today's. Does this necessity imply that society's environmentally unsustainable belief that "You only live once" will mutate towards a belief in reincarnation that encourages people to work for tomorrows generations rather than today's ?

Amity

Well, from a naturalisric perspective, "the more" is woo-woo .. — 180 Proof

Yeah, I know dat cause you effected that in my GC :sparkle:

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Amity

My impression of Indian culture before it underwent westernisation, is that it's belief in reincarnation encouraged slower and more sustainable lifestyles, but that it's belief in karmic justice encouraged social neglect of the downtrodden. — sime

Interesting.
Do you have an example to support your impression of the effect of the reincarnation belief?
Perhaps taking care of any kind of life in the countryside because that could be your late Auntie?
I think I have a little understanding of how there would be little sympathy for the downtrodden.
After all they deserved it...right...

Question: To what extent do the metaphysical beliefs of a culture become determined by the practical necessities of it's society? Clearly they must be correlated to a certain extent, but do they converge in the long run? — sime

Good question. What are the practical needs of society? The basics as per Maslow?
If they are not met, then how would that affect any metaphysical beliefs?
Why metaphysical and not personal, economic or political beliefs...?

Unmet practical needs will lead to a less than happy populace.
How will they react? And what is the tipping point for action at individual, local or global level...?

For example, if modern society is to survive then it needs to adopt environmentally sustainable lifestyles together with long-term ecological investments that will benefit future generations more than today's. Does this necessity imply that society's environmentally unsustainable belief that "You only live once" will mutate towards a belief in reincarnation that encourages people to work for tomorrows generations rather than today's ? — sime

Some might question the need for survival of modern society.
Some might question the methods and whether the results would be of benefit.
It's not everyone that holds the belief; religious or selfish attitude that "You only live once" so let's party and trash the place :party:
Some want to love and live in the moment with care, still considering the future.
Some people work for themselves and future generations because they care about their families.
Nuclear and beyond.
More are becoming aware of the effects of their action/inaction only because they are seeing it.
Here and Now.

I don't think this implies a kind of spiritual awakening or belief in reincarnation.
But it might...for some...

Well, that was thought-provoking. I don't even know if what I've written makes sense.
GC has shut down. That's what happens... :yawn:

praxis

↪sime

No. Religious followers are devotedly at the mercy of their leaders whims and leaders with that much power tend to be corrupted by it.

Amity

It doesn’t.

No agenda, theory, philosophy, just simply be 100% present with them. — ArielAssante

Yes, I understand that any distressed individual requires close and careful attention.
But it takes more than simply being there.
And it does involve a philosophy, way of thinking or looking at life.
That's the human element.

A counsellor's own strong beliefs in e.g. karma, God, are important to recognise and clarify.
Any strong, absolute or dogmatic belief has the potential to affect their action/reaction, even as they maintain a professional practice.
And it's not always possible to be 100% there, physically or mentally.
Counsellors can be at the end of a phone...with no visual cues...or at the end of their tether.
And so on.

ThinkOfOne

↪180 Proof

How are the underlying concepts of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5-6 not "pragmatic"? It incorporates how you interpret karma. Plus is much deeper and profound.

ThinkOfOne

And that's what I find troubling.
When people only do good for some future reward, not for 'good in itself'.
And some are judged as deserving of their illness or misfortune because they must have been bad in a previous life. 'What goes around comes around'.
The linked concept of reincarnation I find unacceptable. — Amity

Seems likely that the underlying concepts of karma, as it's commonly understood today, are rooted in a fear of living in an "unjust" world.
Seems likely that the underlying concepts of reincarnation are rooted in the fear of death.

Neither hold up to scrutiny. They are the products of irrational thought as a way to alleviate the anxieties of those fears. Many believe them today for those very reasons.

On the other hand, the original underlying concepts of karma, as given in the OP, are reasonably sound.

Perspective on Karma

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