For why?

Because it is the only thing that is certain and I think we have to find some way to come to terms with it.

my own grandmother is close to passing and she is a devout Christian, and I can tell she is absolutely terrified of the end. I believe this is the case for all rational animals, — MojaveMan

This is not true. You're talking to the wrong people.

I shouldn't have made an umbrella statement, but have you met someone who is (perhaps you yourself) who is not afraid of death? Maybe it goes with age but as a 25 year old I think about it often.

To accept it will happen is to stop being preoccupied with it. The clock is ticking. This is the part of the show where you are alive. Don't waste it on fear.

I understand your position and your mother's too. Sooner or later, we all want to die and that's a fact. But I dont think is a "rational" act but a sense of boredom. There a few people who are afraid to die because of uncertainty of death, but even these end up wishing a peaceful death. What is the cause of keep living with suffer and pain? Just a waste of time.

But it's the only thing we can really expect, so why not spend ones entire life preparing for what is certain?

It can be taken away from you at a moment's notice.

Preparation for death makes sense if you believe what you do now will change a future outcome. But that cannot be a certainty but only a belief. If you do not believe that is the case, there is nothing to prepare for.

We do not prepare for what is certain, we prepare for what we anticipate, a meal this evening, a hot date tomorrow, the stone wall I will build next week, the writing I hope to understand in a year's time. Etcetera.

I shouldn't have made an umbrella statement, but have you met someone who is (perhaps you yourself) who is not afraid of death? Maybe it goes with age but as a 25 year old I think about it often. — MojaveMan

I'm 71. I'm not ready to die, I'm having a pretty good time, but I'm not afraid. I'm not the only person like that. Here are some statistics from the web. I didn't check the validity of the source.



Here's a link:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/959347/fear-of-death-in-the-us/

We should have a poll of forum members.

Also - I forgot to welcome you to the forum.

But it's the only thing we can really expect, so why not spend ones entire life preparing for what is certain? — MojaveMan

Because it's a huge waste of time. If you want to win at a sport, or succeed in business or master a craft or become expert in a field of study, you have to learn and practice the particulars and perform them well. If you want to fall off a log, you just climb on a log and lean over - no practice required. So, you spend 80 years practicing for something that a PhD in chemistry who is also an accomplished dancer, chess player and stamp collector, who has enjoyed a full life of work, leisure activities, family and friends can do effortlessly, with a simple stroke. You might more usefully have been a cement parking block.

We humble homos seek meaning and purpose and in the process project it onto the world and pretend that we have found it! — MojaveMan

We don't "pretend" that we have found meaning and purpose. In a grandly meaningless universe, it's our task to create meaning and purpose. A person may or may not have done a good job creating meaning or purpose.

There are two things which people may fear about death: One is the period of dying -- the final illness. It might be a prolonged period of suffering. The other is being dead, and what the alleged afterlife might involve. Depending on the variety, deeply held religious ideas may intensify this fear.

I'm 76. Death from one cause or another is probably not in the distant future. What comes after death is logically like what comes before birth: nothing. In the meantime, life remains interesting. I don't want to hurry death along.

So is this the suggestion - because we fear death we should want to die?

Non comprendo.

Non comprendo. — unenlightened

Yea, me neither.

I've always thought that fear of death - for those who are so afraid - largely consists of fear of the unknown ... with death being the ultimate unknown. As in: "if death is not an absolute nihility of being, then what awaits given who I've been?"



At any rate, as a slight spin off: why should those who don't fear death on account of their conviction that it in fact is an absolute nihility of being thereby want to not be?

Doesn't jive well with the way humans are.

It's not fear; it's greed. I like sunshine and trees, music and beer, being able to walk and see and taste and hear; I like affection, pleasant sensations, learning things and doing stuff and interacting with the living world. I want as much of it as I can get. When I don't enjoy it anymore, I will be ready and willing - nay, eager - to die.

I've always thought that fear of death - for those who are so afraid - largely consists of fear of the unknown — javra

Well that's something I don't understand - the unknown as far as I'm concerned covers all manner of wonderful, boring, delightful, agonising, unimaginable curiosities that I cannot respond to in any way at all because it is all - unknown. What I think one can more successfully fear is the loss of the known, which seems to be more or less in line with @Vera Mont

In my work I've spent a lot of time in palliative care and end of life services. It's interesting that many religious people I've seen derive no comfort from their faith. They are terrified of dying. Perhaps it's the fear of hell which is so much a part of the Christian story. In the case of my mum, when she was dying she became very angry and refused to see the Pastor. "What's the good of prayer now... it's a done deal,' she fumed. She was absolutely furious not to be part of the ongoing story of her friends and family and felt like she was being taken away from all she knew and loved.

What I think one can more successfully fear is the loss of the known, which seems to be more or less in line with Vera Mont — unenlightened

Interesting. Thanks for the perspective. Might I in good faith ask why?

For me the known too comes in a wide variety of flavors. Some knowns are quite pleasant while others are the converse. Learning to forget, from where I stand, can be an important aspect of life. Of course, at issue here from my vantage is that not all knowns are of beneficial value. Deep insights, acquaintances with beauty, and the like one one hand; grotesque violence as intense qualitative experience can serve as one example of something best left behind. As to holding on to the past, we typically do so only to better serve our future. Which is to say I find empirical knowledge to always be of instrumental, rather than intrinsic, value. So why fear loss of knowns if it comes via the form of nonbeing?

Maybe I rambled a bit. All the same, in honesty, if the presumption is that death equates to nonbeing, this has never bothered me as a possibility; nonbeing would be an absolute liberation from all ills were it to be real. Still, I don't currently take this scenario of death to be certain; I nowadays find it rather unlikely, personally.

BTW, , I forgot to link my post to you. (it was intend as a reply to the OP rather than to unenlightened per se)

What I think one can more successfully fear is the loss of the known, — unenlightened

When one doesn't believe an afterlife, that's pretty much all there is. Why would you spend all this potentially wonderful time preparing for oblivion?

My mother had some non-denominational faith; I think she sort of believed in an afterlife. When she learned that she was dying, she didn't show any fear; she just said, "I hoped it would be longer."

So is this the suggestion - because we fear death we should want to die?

Non comprendo. — unenlightened

I'm saying that because the fear of death is what drives humans to do everything. (Terror Managment Theory https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/terror-management-theory) What I'm suggesting is replace the fear with want, flip it on its head, fear life by making our lives full of suffering and pain, and love it when we are finally free to die.

It's not fear; it's greed. I like sunshine and trees, music and beer, being able to walk and see and taste and hear; I like affection, pleasant sensations, learning things and doing stuff and interacting with the living world. I want as much of it as I can get. When I don't enjoy it anymore, I will be ready and willing - nay, eager - to die. — Vera Mont

That's kind of what I'm getting at, but unfortunately many people aren't ready when they die. But if they had lived hopelessly painful lives they would have always been ready.

I'm 71. I'm not ready to die, I'm having a pretty good time, but I'm not afraid. I'm not the only person like that. Here are some statistics from the web. I didn't check the validity of the source. — T Clark

Thank you, happy to join it!
The reason I used my grandmother as an example, and I have a few others from personal experience, is because she is a devout christian. To her belief system she shouldn't be afraid to die, she acted in the passed like she wasn't, but now that it is at her feet she is breaking down emotionally. I'm saying that most people may say they aren't afraid, I can say that right now I'm not afraid, but if I think for a moment to try and comprehend the end, or really think about what it means to not exist, and overwhelming terror comes over me that my mind quickly pushes away and seeks distraction from.
As my suggestion above why not simply seek to create the largest amount of suffering and pain possible to oneself in order to be more afraid of life than death?

But if they had lived hopelessly painful lives they would have always been ready. — MojaveMan

So you advocate that everyone have hopelessly painful lives as a preparation? Doesn't sound all that clever to me.

For me the known too comes in a wide variety of flavors. Some knowns are quite pleasant while others are the converse. Learning to forget, from where I stand, can be an important aspect of life. Of course, at issue here from my vantage is that not all knowns are of beneficial value. Deep insights, acquaintances with beauty, and the like one one hand; grotesque violence as intense qualitative experience can serve as one example of something best left behind. As to holding on to the past, we typically do so only to better serve our future. Which is to say I find empirical knowledge to always be of instrumental, rather than intrinsic, value. So why fear loss of knowns if it comes via the form of nonbeing? — javra

It is because we want for these positive "knowns" and run away from the negative. What I'm trying to ask, and I fear I am failing, is why shouldn't we simply run towards suffering and pain, all these negative knowns in order to want death? Because you can have the most vibrant beautiful life full of fun but at the end of it all it's gone and that's horrific, to me at least. Other's have said that is not the case for them but it's my living experience that suggest otherwise.

So you advocate that everyone have hopelessly painful lives as a preparation? — Vera Mont

I'm not advocating for it I'm asking why not advocate for it. And not necessarily make your lives painful as in self harming per se but seeking, discomfort, I suppose, or have such grim outlook on everything in life that death seems like a gift. Why does the human want to live a happy life instead of a miserable one if they lead to the same end?

Why does the human want to live a happy life instead of a miserable one if they lead to the same end? — MojaveMan

Because it is more fun.

Why does the human want to live a happy life instead of a miserable one if they lead to the same end? — MojaveMan

Because he's sane?

Because he's sane? — Vera Mont

I'm saying it may not be sane to seek happiness and possessions, etc. if it will all get taken in an instant as you trip going up the stairs. (Knocking on wood for you!) But if you had actively cultivated suffering you might think, as your face hits the concrete, that this wasn't such a bad thing after all.

I'm saying it may not be sane to seek happiness and possessions, etc. if it will all get taken in an instant as you trip going up the stairs. — MojaveMan

Fine. You go your way; I'll go mine.