Trump’s continued attacks on the Department of Justice and the judiciary are another assault on the democratic state, aided and abetted (although clumsily) by his congressional sock-puppets. I think he should be held in contempt of court - as he so obviously does hold courts in contempt - and threatened with a custodial sentence if he keeps it up. He is after all arraigned in a criminal case, and should be treated like any other defendant who attacks the Court whilst subject to its jurisdiction.

Hopefully lots of other indictments follow, particularly the Georgia “perfect phone call.”

Been a criminal flouting the rules for years, thinking he’s above the law.

Next up: George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, and other war criminals/international terrorists.

Next up: George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Barack Obama, and other war criminals/international terrorists. — Mikie

Yes. I can hear the Atlantic-reading champagne Liberals clamouring for those crimes to be prosecuted...

... any minute now ...

... just waiting ...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/03/iraq-war-us-invasion-anniversary-2023/673343/

Oh, apparently they were all great.

I think you guys try to psychoanalze the elusive American mind in trying to understand the resistance to this particular indictment, as if there's something Martian with this perspective.l, but it's really not all that complicated.

Al Capone was a ruthless murderous mobster. Everyone knew it, but he was smart enough not to get caught red handed and no one would testify against him. The government came after him because he was a terrible person, and they'd have charged him with anything to take him down, whether that be not keeping his dog on a leash or tearing the tag off his mattress. They eventually got him for tax evasion. That crime is not malum in se, but is a regulatory crime and a convenient excuse to take him down. No tears were shed for him because of who he was, and the level of scrutiny he was brought under for his every misdeed did not bother anyone.

Had Capone been a civil rights leader, a union organizer, maybe with some communist leanings, but also a stand up hardworking man, but just a thorn in the side of the government and he was imprisoned for tax evasion by what was thought to be an aggressive prosecution, you would have seen protests and "Free Capone" signs all around.

The reason for those protests would have been allegations of pretext, selective prosecution, and political expediency. Yes, tax evasion is a crime, but there would likely be truth in why this prosecution occurred., that it was for the wrong reasons in trying to silence unwanted change.

Back to Trump.

10s of millions of people voted for and support this man. He is viewed as a thorn in the side of government. And now we're prosecuting him for a malum prohibita, a law created by the government, which is seen as an expedient way to shut down the left's public enemy number 1. This feeds directly into the Trump narrative, that this drainer of the swamp must be stopped by any means.

This is all to say let's charge Capone in this instance with murder. That is, if he tried to crush American democracy with voter fraud, let's get him for that, not this lie he told so that we wouldn't know who he fucked.

The Georgia fraud issue is the real crime, not this NY one, and it will appear to some that the NY crimes are BS, and now they just keep taking stabs trying to get one to stick.

a law created by the government — Hanover

Isn’t that all laws?

Isn’t that all laws? — Michael

Pay attention to the malum per se and malum prohibita distinction. That was the point.

Hey, a man can dream.

The nature of Trump’s supposed crimes are invariably of the verbal variety. Word crimes. No violence, no criminal intent, just that his mouth made certain sounds at certain times. They don’t like what he says or the way he speaks, this much is obvious, but his voice can bring about the end of Democracy herself. But it is their reactions to his voice that threaten the republic.

Pay attention to the malum per se and malum prohibita distinction. That was the point. — Hanover

So any law that prohibits something that isn't, in itself, an evil, is an unjust law that shouldn't be a law and so shouldn't be punished?

They eventually got him for tax evasion. That crime is not malum in se, but is a regulatory crime and a convenient excuse to take him down. — Hanover

So are you saying that tax evasion shouldn't be crime? That nobody should be punished for not paying their taxes? That taxes should be optional?

The Georgia fraud issue is the real crime, not this NY one, and it will appear to some that the NY crimes are BS, and now they just keep taking stabs trying to get one to stick. — Hanover

I can't quite understand the reasoning here. Is it that if someone has committed some greater crime then they shouldn't be punished for their lesser crimes? That committing some major wrong somehow absolves them of some minor wrong?

Like, I'm a murderer, so you shouldn't imprison me for stealing that car?

A crime is a crime. Either argue that the crime shouldn't be a crime (for anyone), or accept that people who break it should be prosecuted.

I don't think there's any good reason to argue that the average guy who embezzles money should be punished for it, but a rich, powerful ex-President who embezzles money shouldn't be punished for it because he might have done much worse.

Trump's punishment will probably be a small fine that he won't even notice.

But it is their reactions to his voice that threaten the republic. — NOS4A2

The threat to democracy, which at its most basic level is the power of the individual vote, is what Trump directly threatened. He fought to overturn a legal and fair election by attacking individual precinct officials, pressuring state officials, filing countless lawsuits, empanelling fake electors, pressuring his VP not to certify the results, and then assembling a posse to physically interfere with the certification process.

The reason he failed was due to a robust opposition party, a few noteworthy objectors within his own party, and an immovable judiciary.

His response has been to attack the opposition with fraudulent conspiracy theories, to purge his party of those not lock step loyal, and to condemn the judiciary. If given another shot, he'd appoint loyalists as judges and not just conservative theorists.

The Democrats are not angels and they're not great strategists, and I disagree with much of their economic policy, but, no, they don't threaten the republic. That honor goes to Trump.

And now we're prosecuting him for a malum prohibita, a law created by the government — Hanover

Right, election laws are created by the government, as are laws against falsification of records.

The case is likely to be based on combining the two. The latter is a misdemeanor in New York law, but:

To elevate the crime to a felony charge, Mr. Bragg’s prosecutors must show that Mr. Trump’s “intent to defraud” included an intent to commit or conceal a second crime.

In this case, that second crime could be a violation of election law.

NYT

Like I said, word crimes. He spoke and I felt some way, therefor it’s a crime.

His opponents (who are of both parties) fundamentally altered election laws and changed how elections are run. And now they are abusing the justice system in something resembling Stalinism. If Trump did any of that you might have a case, but all you can do is try to make the sound of his voice and words that come out of his mouth into something they are not.

You can murder (commit the act), attempt to murder (try but not complete the act), and conspire to murder (plan but not try to complete the act). All are crimes, with the modifiers of "attempt" and "conspire" being as much crimes as the other. Such are defined in the criminal code. Calling them "word" crimes doesn't accurately describe them and doesn't diminish them. That you tried to murder and failed or that you planned to murder and failed makes you no less a criminal in terms of intent. We fortunately don't need a dead body to charge a crime, but we can prosecute those who took affirmative steps and failed. Incompetence is not a defense.

Trump's level of intent couldn't have been higher. He was thwarted by those who wouldn't allow him to interfere with the election. He tried to recruit a governor and Secretary of State to literally invalidate the will of millions of voters. For that he should be in prison.

His opponents (who are of both parties) fundamentally altered election laws and changed how elections are run. And now they are abusing the justice system in something resembling Stalinism. — NOS4A2

They increased voter participation by having drop boxes and allowing greater use of absentee ballots. The courts upheld those democratically created laws, many by Republican led legislatures to assure voting during Covid. Stalin was not known as the guy who allowed greater voter participation and who supported an independent judiciary.

Stalin was known as the opposite, and as one who often purged his party of those he decided weren't loyal.

This isn't to say Trump is like Stalin, but that was your hyperbole. I recognize that 10s of millions are not dead on Trump's account.

The voting machines worked as well, as the multi-billion dollar lawsuit seems to be proving. Maricopa County should have put a nail in the coffin of the voter fraud arguments even by the staunchest believers in the voter fraud arguments. There was no voter fraud, just fraudsters peddling fraud and marks being defrauded.

At least his new orange jumpsuit will match his lovely and so natural-looking skin tone.

Like I said, word crimes. He spoke and I felt some way, therefor it’s a crime. — NOS4A2

Word crimes were as far as it could go because the Joint Chiefs of Staff were determined that his coup wasn't going to succeed. Don't really need a deep state to explain your failure when the US Military is against you.

Trump's punishment will probably be a small fine that he won't even notice. — frank

Which will come out of loyal donations for his defense that will exceed his costs many times over. If anything, this window dressing of prosecution for a relatively minor offense of an ex president will serve to support his claims of political persecution by the opposition party. His history of being a pig will bounce right off his teflon suit.

Not forever, though. It will be remembered that he attempted a coup.

Changing election laws before an election is not suppressing a vote; it’s to ensure voting. All that dark money, those Zuckerbucks, were used to help voters, just like they helped people by suppressing stories that made Trump’s opponents look bad. Not to mention the belligerent groups conspiring to riot should Trump have won. After a full year of violent riots, surely none of those threats led to an alliance of Big Business, Big Tech, and Big Woke to fundamentally alter American elections in the lead up to one of the most important elections ever held, and all behind the backs of voters. It’s no surprise that all of it favored one candidate over the other. Meanwhile a Trump supporter was just convicted of election interference for sharing a meme on Twitter.

The Stalinism was in reference to the politicization of the justice system. Stalin’s chief of his secret police famously said “you show me the man, I’ll show you the crime”. The New York AG campaigned on getting Trump. DA Bragg frequently brought up the numerous times he sued Trump and his family. Trump has been raided while Biden gets away with the same thing for over a decade, and treated with kids gloves. Don Junior and Ivanka are sued into oblivion while Hunter Biden, a corrupt crackhead and philanderer, who left a hand gun in a garbage can next to a school, with photographic evidence of innumerable crimes, is not.

I would rather they gone after him on the Georgia case. This is small-time paperwork stuff.

I would rather they gone after him on the Georgia case. — RogueAI

It’s not an either-or. The New York prosecutors are prosecuting him for alleged crimes committed in New York, the Georgia prosecutors are investigating him for possible crimes committed in Georgia, and federal prosecutors are investigating him for possible crimes related to classified documents.

I know, but the NY case is not a very good one.

... the NY case is not a very good one. — RogueAI

It is too early to tell. We have to wait to see what the criminal charges brought against him will be.

That's true. I'm just going by the reporting so far.

He tried to recruit a governor and Secretary of State to literally invalidate the will of millions of voters. For that he should be in prison. — Hanover

:up:

But because it didn’t happen (because others had the decency to refuse), it’s “just words.”

Trump apologists are hilarious.

THE RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS HAVE LIED, CHEATED, AND STOLEN IN THEIR MANIACAL OBSESSION TO “GET TRUMP,” BUT NOW THEY’VE GONE TOO FAR, INDICTING A TOTALLY INNOCENT MAN IN AN ACT OF OBSTRUCTION AND BLATANT ELECTION INTERFERENCE. HOW MUCH MORE ARE AMERICAN PATRIOTS EXPECTED TO TAKE???…AND ALL OF THIS WHILE OUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL!

:rofl:

This was posted by Trump in 2018, showing his political adversaries behind bars for imagined 'treason'.



(Reproduced in Washington Post)

Throughout his presidential tenure, Trump repeatedly called for his critics to be tried and jailed for treason. Remember this is from the same man who stood on the world stage with Putin and said he would trust Putin over his own intelligence agencies:



And who is credibly accused of fomenting the January 6th secession, for which hundreds of people have already been sentenced to jail and for which Trump will likely be the subject of another (and far more serious) indictement.

During his time in office, Trump actively tried to recruit the FBI, IRS and DOJ to do his bidding and attack his opponents. Remember the 'lock her up chants', directed at Hillary Clinton, and on one occasion notoriously lead by Michael Flynn, who is now one of the MAGA Republicans most vocal in calling Trump's prosecution a 'weaponisation of the justice department'?

Hypocrisy, thy name is GOP.

And who is credibly accused of fomenting the January 6th secession — Wayfarer

There was no secession. Secession is when a state leaves the union.