Really! You hold all the cards, yet I bomb your restaurants and buses, murder and outrage your people, wage wars against you, make clear I want you dead and gone and in any pause still fire rockets at you and commit any mayhem I can. And you think you hold the cards? Just who do you think is in control of the chaos, making it happen? If I bash you on the snout with a club, is it the fault/cause/responsibility of your nose? Are you a villain if you defend your nose? Have you nothing at all to say about the depredations by the Palestinians and their friends?They're also the ones who have held all the cards for the past 40 years. — Tzeentch
Really! You hold all the cards, yet I bomb your restaurants and buses, murder and outrage your people, wage wars against you, make clear I want you dead and gone and in any pause still fire rockets at you and commit any mayhem I can. And you think you hold the cards? Just who do you think is in control of the chaos, making it happen? If I bash you on the snout with a club, is it the fault/cause/responsibility of your nose? Are you a villain if you defend your nose? Have you nothing at all to say about the depredations by the Palestinians and their friends? — tim wood
And the consequence of ignoring their role is to reduce them, implicitly making them just vermin and rats, vicious and beyond any possible responsibility, not even worth mentioning. And further implying your own thoughts are suspect or compromised, being victim to clever, unconscionable, very costly propaganda. — tim wood
But you're right, the Israelis have got to do or die. But what right you to criticize what under necessity they have to do?! — tim wood
Not really. Hamas acts in the way resistance movements always act. Like the Viet Cong, the Taliban, etc. It's a given. Israel won't be the first nation to find that out that moral whinging won't change the facts on the ground. — Tzeentch
Israel on the other hand has had, certainly since 1991, the world's most powerful nation on its side and could have solved this situation if it wanted to. It of course sabotaged the solutions, most notably it sabotaged the two-state solution which it was called upon to enact via UNSC resolutions. This sabotage is explicitly mentioned in the relevant UNSC resolutions. — Tzeentch
So yes, Israel holds all the cards for a solution, but refuses to act, instead opting for hard liners like Netanyahu in the hopes that one day Palestinians will magically disappear. Remarkably foolish and worthy of the harshest criticism. — Tzeentch
So yes, Israel holds all the cards for a solution, but refuses to act, instead opting for hard liners like Netanyahu in the hopes that one day Palestinians will magically disappear. Remarkably foolish and worthy of the harshest criticism. — Tzeentch
They're not doing what is necessary. They're digging themselves deeper into a hole with every bomb they drop on Gaza. — Tzeentch
Did history not exist before the last twenty years? — schopenhauer1
Israel's refusal to enact and sabotage of UNSC resolutions towards a two-state solution started all the way back in 1967. — Tzeentch
Never the Palestinians any responsibility; never did they reject anything. Maybe neither wanted/wants a two-state solution. Your blinders are on and working very well. Answer this: to your mind, in your own thinking, never mind anyone else, do the Israelis possess any right to be where they are?and could have solved this situation if it wanted to. Israel of course sabotaged the solutions. — Tzeentch
do the Israelis possess any right to be where they are? — tim wood
Then a decent respect for those rights ought call for the inclusion of some acknowledgement of them and the attacks on them. For the rest, I agree.do the Israelis possess any right to be where they are?
— tim wood
Of course. — Tzeentch
Then a decent respect for those rights ought call for the inclusion of some acknowledgement of them and the attacks on them. For the rest, I agree.
Edit: As to the VC and the Taliban, the VC do not belong in this group - a separate discussion. But in glossing over who and what they are - e.g., the Taliban - you implicitly excuse them. And excusing without cause is imo a great mistake. Aesop covered this in his fable of the frog and the scorpion crossing the river, and no doubt a story even older than that. — tim wood
Resistance movements are simply a result of an occupation. — Tzeentch
It goes without saying that neither side deserves any prizes in that regard. — Tzeentch
First of all, do notice what the South African charge was.Do you mean that the pro-Palestinians can be happy for such ruling? It didn't demand an immediate ceasefire nor it condemned Israel for committing a genocide. — neomac
Why didn't the ICJ demand a cease-fire? — RogueAI
The UN continues to beclown itself.
What’s the failure?
I'm well aware that this is a problem - perhaps the central problem. Equal rights for Palestinians is not compatible with the idea of a Jewish nation state.
In a sense we have reached a pivotal point here in the development of civilisation. Do we finally grow up and act as a global community to help these people out and build a stronger United Nations. Or do we fail again, remain divided, tribal, to sit by and watch the continual spread of failed states across the world. — Punshhh
It’s a moral argument. An argument about the concept that the Jewish people have been wronged by the world (civilisation). That the current conflict is a symptom of this wrong and that to resolve this crisis this wrong will need to be put right in some way.
“Modern civilisation” for me is the human world of the last 2000yrs or so. Or perhaps from the point of the exile of the Jews in 800 BC, or thereabouts*. This whole period of civilisation was involved in the wrong and the evolution of the psychology and narrative of the state, or geopolitics of this time. — Punshhh
If one doesn’t accept this moral argument then we are not anymore addressing the moral argument applicable to this crisis. That’s fine, but we will be ignoring an important facet of the issue. — Punshhh
The problem I would focus on is not the horror of zillions of Palestinian kids exploding under Israeli bombs or the historical traumas of the Israelis, but why we are powerless over this conflict.
Quite, and what do you put it down to?
* I accept that civilisation over the last 2000yrs or so is complex with a dynamic geopolitics and is not confined to The West. However I would argue that this whole period is involved in the development of the current global zeitgeist. — Punshhh
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