The difference lies in 1) their physicality and 2) the proof of their existence in the physical world.The issue is, it seems, rather simple: We don't question the existence of mud, but we're unsure of the existence of Golems. Why? What's the reason for this differential treatment of mud & Golems (mud beings)? — Agent Smith
Update
To put this thread back on track.
Define
1. Existence: That which can be perceived (with our senses & instruments( exists.
2. Physical: That which is matter and/or energy. Both are perceived (accurately) with instruments. — Agent Smith
I think this an incorrect argument. Let's see the meaning of the 3 basic elements involved here:I cannot justifiably say any claim is NOT data, nor can I say it's data that points to a precise meaning, therefore all claims are justifiable. — Varde
Good example. This is one aspect of the case. There are more. For example, an emloyer can do the job of the employee if needed. (It happens when his business cannot afford hiring more employees to cover its needs . But the opposite is rarily the case. E.g. in a farm, workers know and can do only their job --plowing, harvesting, animal caring, etc.-- but they don't know or can manage the whole farm, they don't have the money needed to maintain the business, etc. In other words, the employer, as the owner of the farm can do everyting if needed. Withoud him, most probably there would not be a farm. In a case of economic crisis or other adverse factors like Covid lock downs, those who get unemployed are the employees. The employer/owner of the business usually is still working and earns some money. So, who is more valuable: the employer or the employee? And in prosperous times, who is the one who is the only who offers jobs to people so that they can maintain themselves and their families?Are full-time employees or employers more important in the economy? ... there is a greater probability of survival for the economy the more there are employees — ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
Isn't this an arbitrary statement? It is not backed up with reasoning or any evidence. Normally, one would think that none of the two is more necessary than the other, since both are needed to reproduce a new life.Women are more necessary in biological terms than men. — ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
This is true. For instance, most of my habits never change! :grin:There may not be a static reality, but some things will never change. — Wayfarer
As I can see from the time stamps, I also posted that 12 hrs ago ... same time zone ...Its almost three in the night here... — Hillary
:up: :grin:I have seen a guy in English parliament smashing his writchwatch! Time's up! — Hillary
Funny ... I have stepped on "Al-Ghazali’s 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers'" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers). I have not read the article. It might be fun ... I just put it on my --ever growing-- TOREAD list!It would be called a discussion among continental philosophers, who use close readings of texts to buttress their arguments. Not so much on this site, though. — Joshs
I know. It's only logical that people do that. Yet, what happens, even when you just quote someone, is that one has to know the context in which this quote appears, and to know that one has to read one or more works of the referenced philosophers. And this is quite impossible in a discussion, esp. when many such references appear in it. This happened when I once criticized a Wittgenstein's quote, nbut with arguments and all ... Many then have suggested to me to read his "Tractatus" or even his work, in general. Godssake, man! Just tell me where I am wrong and why. Well, no one did! See what I mean?I quoted those people because I agree with their views and they make a good starting point for discussion — Joshs
No, this is not true at all. As I told you, I just ask you to tell me your personal opinion. You don't need to bring in philosophers or other authotities or experts to support your opinion.So if you don’t care what Bergson, Prigogine or Smolen think about this issue then you don’t care what I think — Joshs
I rarely do so. I don't need to do that. I have to clarify my position --and I usually do that-- myself. If I can't it means that my opinion or explanation is not good or I have not understood the subject. Einstein has said “If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” Here, I used a quote myself! :smile: (But only after I have made my point and because I love this quote! :smile:)I would love it if you used quotes to clarify your position. — Joshs
It can ... If take its battery out or I break it! :grin:The clock can't be stopped. — Hillary
I agree. Well, except that matter can move in all kinds of directions! :smile:There is no configuration of objects that stays the same forever. The global arrangement of matter always moves in one direction. — Hillary
Exactly. Isn't that what I have said already? You have even quoted me on that! :smile:But 'real for whom?' then raises the issue of subjectivism - that what is real is up to you or me. — Wayfarer
Everyone can and does change one's mind from time to time. And one's reality changes accordingly. What difference does this make? There's no stable, static reality. Even if one thinks of reality as the physical universe --which is wrong-- that changes too, in fact, on a constant basis. There's nothing static and never changing, except such abtract ideas as infinity, eternity, God, etc.But it can't be that way - what if I change my mind? Does something that was real then become unreal? It can't be dependent on your or my say-so. — Wayfarer
In Physics, "static" refers to bodies at rest or forces in equilibrium. That is, it refers to physical things. Time is not one of them. But even then, something static has the possibility to change state, like something "stationary" that I mentioned earlier.What if time is static, without the possibility to move? — Hillary
It is good that you know about these guys and their opinions. I also know of a lot of guys who have or had an opinion about time. If cite them, and then other TPF members cite from their own guys, would that be called a "discussion"?Smolin argues ... Prigogine contends ... for Bergson it is ,,, — Joshs
There's no concept of "measurment". Measutement is an action. (Look up both words, "measurment" and "concept".)Measurement presupposes a concept of measurement, — Joshs
Right. I have said that already.Time understood according to certain long-standing assumptions shared by philosophy and science is just a dimension. — Joshs
Well, I respect their opinion. For me this doesn't make any sense at all.But to philosophers like Bergson and the phenomenologists it is the structure of reality itself. — Joshs
I'm not sure what you are asking here. Anyway, for one thing, the universe is not a human invention. Or, if you are talking about words/language, these are human inventions. But this is too obvious ...If time as dimension is a human invention, what features of the world can you point to that are not human inventions? — Joshs
"Stationary" means "not moving". The possibility of moving is implied. Water can be stationary. A statue is stationary. Inflation can be stationary. They can all move but they don't.There are only irreversible particle processes. Don't they move in a stationary time? — Hillary
I don't know about these persons. And good for them if they believe that "time is fundamentally unidirectional". (BTW, does "fundamentally" mean that it can also be otherwise?)Not according to Ilya Prigogine or Lee Smolen. For them time is fundamentally unidirectional.. — Joshs
I didn't say that we have created time. That would be totally ridiculous. I talked about the concept of time. In fact, in bold letters. I couldn't stress it more ...We didnt create time, although we create various theories about time. — Joshs
We are not "attempting" to measure. We are measuring them. Time is just a dimension. As is length. They do not actually exst.The things we are attempting to measure are in themselves incoherent without the prior being of time. — Joshs
I didn't say only that, did I? I also said that time does not move at all. My whole point was that!Well, I don't. I don't know that time is unidirectional.
— Alkis Piskas
Don't you think time goes forward only? — Hillary
I would add "occurring", since "existing" limits things to static ones.according to today's empiricist philosophy only that which can be conceived of as existing in time and space is considered real. — Wayfarer
Well, I don't. I don't know that time is unidirectional. That is, I don't know that time is moving in one direction. In fact, I don't think that time is moving at all. The wind moves in one direction. The water in a river moves in one direction. The earth moves around the sun in one direction. All these things have one thing in common: they are physical. Time is not. Thus it cannot move. It is itself movement. In the sense that it represents movement and change.We all know it. Time is unidirectional — EugeneW
I can't solve it as a paradox, but I can as a sophism! :smile:This is a paradox one might come across if they consider God's omnipotence. If the answer is yes, then there is one thing he can't do (lift a heavy enough rock), which contradicts the definition of omnipotence (being able to do anything). The same applies if the answer is no. How would you solve this paradox? — Cidat
Well, AI is among my programming fields and interests! :grin:AI is AS, artificial stupidity — Haglund
Indeed. How "unscientific" this is, eh? :grin: A big irony, isn't it?And the people who take it seriously are even assumed scientists, — Haglund
I'm much impressed with science too, but one has to put things in their right perspective ... "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar ..."People though are impressed by science somehow and continue the myth — Haglund
Right. Let them try ... (Although they could invest their time in much more productive things...)just let it evolve, instead of trying to accomplish it by a hyperspeedy clocktime and massive quantities of data, following sophisticated programs. — Haglund
Oh, I see. Certainly there are. But, as you say, they "think there's something more to mind ...". Well, I don't consider this enough, i.e. a "solid" awareneness, but it is certainly better than not thinkg that at all! And we are speaking of people in the West. Because in the East, people are more spiritiual and have a quite "solid" awareness regarding this subject. One can realize this from the difference between Western and Eatern tradition, philosopy, etc.I have in mind ordinary people, say many who are religious, which may amount to more than half of the world population. It's my impression that they often do think there's something more to mind than brain. — Manuel
Exactly. And this is what worries me. I find it somewhat "unnatural" ...Of course, in a forum like this, it's going to be very rare. — Manuel
True. I don't know though when "things" started to change and why ... It's something worth exploring ...It was very much alive in the neo-Platonist tradition up until, roughly after Newton. — Manuel
Right. As a cartoon maybe ... :smile:Dreams are great! Let them try to program one! — Haglund
Oh, where? Not in here I guess ... I have met only a couple ones here ...for many people, there is such a thing as a soul, to which we can attach certain aspects of mind. — Manuel
Are you indeed "your particles"?the particles being you, can never be you again. — Haglund
Interesting point.he Ship of Theseus. What if we reassemble your brain parts. What then? — Agent Smith
Yet, it seems that a lot of people prefer dreaming ... It's more thrilling! :smile:Replace one half of the brain by a synthetic. Dream along... — Haglund
I just gave a look about the book and saw that it talks about AI.book, "Artificial You"? It was written by Susan Schneider, — Bret Bernhoft
Not if one considers that consciousness is separate from the body. Death and rebirth concern the body. Although I believe that such an experiment would create such a shock for the individual that he could not survive it.I agree, so what happens when that continuity is broken by periods of non-consciousness? Death and rebirth? — RogueAI