-"Sure, but the idea that laws are timeless and universal can be challenged. Which means they weren't necessarily wrong before, but the conclusion that they were built permanently into the fabric of the whole universe could be incorrect."
-Sure, any idea can be challenged on reasonable doubts and objective facts.
First of all we need to distinquish the concept of laws as "human narratives" and the Regularity of the processes driving Phenomena in nature(attempted to be described by our laws ).
Human narratives can change due to new evidence. So we can challenge the longevity of our descriptions. I am not sure that we can successfully challenge the regularity or longevity of natural mechanism and properties.
Regularity is a basic quality in Nature and both concepts of timeless and universal are in agreement with that. Sure we can not prove or disprove this claim, so I look it more as a Pragmatic Necessity due to our limited observations. Its like the logical absolutes and any other axiom to be honest. They are all accepted as such.... as long as we are keep verifying them with every use.
I see what you say but I can not really challenge them solely on the lack of a mathematical type of proof. In science we use induction and the power in this type of reasoning comes directly from the risk we take to predict things. Tautologies(deduction) do not offer valuable predictions at all!
So we can agree there is a risk in that "assumption" but it is a beneficial UNTIL it is unable to produce predictions.
-"IOW what you write here is not relevant to the issue I was raising.
Our frameworks were never considered as "absolute truths", again science doesn't play the "absolute truth" game."
-You are right, this is why I stated:"The above remarks are not necessary in conflict with what you stated, I only included them as additional information in the discussion."
My point was that since science doesn't deal with "absolute truth"...we need to expect changes in our frameworks since they are only the product of our current observations and understanding.
-"What you just presented here is a position that some scientists have (only humans can have biases and positions) but others do not. I'd say I am a kind of Pragmatist so I don't have a problem with your position here, in fact, I would say I agree with it. More than that I think that was what I was saying to Caldwell, though I am not sure exactly what his position is."
-Those "scientists" who don't share this position are not doing science...its that simple. They are either using the Principles of Methodological Naturalism or they are doing some kind of "philosophy".
So from your writings I see you understand how science sets our limitations in our philosophical interpretations and thus protects our epistemology from any pollution by low quality intellectual artifacts
-" But it seems to be that QM includes theories (or hypotheses that he considers unjustly accepted) that go against things like clearcut causal laws, so this is decay.""
-Well that is a misconception. After all QM is science's most successive formulations offering predictions with up to 99,999...up to 14 decimal places....accuracy.
So the "noise'' in our observations of the QM (btw by "observation" we mean crashing bozons and fermions to figure out their spatial/energetic properties) is there but we can verify the Regular Nature of Reality and we have the ability to make predictions (in a probabilistic way) with high accuracy. IT's not the first time in science that we have to represent our predictions by using a "bell curve". (its a first for physics).
Observation Objectivity Collapse( in playing English...meshing with the system we try to observe) is around Social sciences for way too many decades...but when we experience it in other physical systems it somehow becomes a problem for causality.
This is long conversation but one thing is sure. QM verify our current Scientific Paradigm even if we can not figure out its relationship with the rest of the physical scales.
-" I understand that absolute knowledge or truth as Science's goals are popular beliefs,but they couldn't be further from the truth. — Nickolasgaspar
I'll just say you seem to be assuming things about my beliefs or the position I presented which are not the case. And again, Science can't have goals. Only living organisms can. (with a proviso that future evidence might alter my position on this:joke:)"
-Sorry again I should have placed that disclaimer on the top. I was just adding arguments to your comment.
-"I claim no expertise about Newton, but it has been presented to me from hundreds of (perhaps weak) sources that he did in fact believe in absolute time and space."
-I was only referring to Gravity to be honest.
-"Time, in this conception, was external to the universe, and so must be measured independently of the universe. It would continue even if the universe were completely empty of all matter and objects, and essentially represented a kind of container or stage setting within which physical phenomena occur in a completely deterministic way. In Newton’s own words: “absolute, true and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external”."
-I wouldn't interpret Newton's idea on time as being external to the universe...more like a governing force of the universe. Either way he was wrong. Time is a phenomenon created by evolving processes and affected by other processes.
-"Great. I have to add that I really wish this was the way scientists, in general, acted. You are talking about 'the default position' Science can't have a default position, people have them."
-Well I am talking about using the Null Hypothesis to arrive to the Default position on a specific ontological topic. So Logic should force those people who do science to adopt a specific position as Default. Sure science is just a methodology and a bunch of philosophical assumptions(MN). Logic is what should guide Scientists.
-"n fact ironically Caldwell's reaction (which I may be misinterpreting) to QM seems like what I experience in my interaction with the majority of scientists I've met: they don't withhold beliefs. They evaluate intuitively or deductively beliefs that contradict or seem to contradict or might contradict or just seem weird based on their sene of current models, ontologies and theories. And they often rapidly dismiss things that, were your sense of the default in praxis accurate IRL, they should not given what science is. And they do this with peers also. To bring back Newton, there is a lot of inertia when encountering new and 'strange' ideas. Bodies at rest and in motion and all that...."
-Well to be honest, QM is just counter intuitive and that is mainly caused by our language.
i.e. We use the word "particle", a concept that for centuries was used to describe an entity in the Classic World. Entities of the classic world have specific spatial and temporal behavior. Now we use the same label to describe an energetic glitch in a field but our expectations for its behavior are borrowed by the classical world! We shouldn't maintain the same expectations from matter at such an energetic state and we should take in to account the way we make observations at that scale!
So most interpretations read far more things from our observations and they attempt to deduce directly one scale of reality to an other. I am not sure that a different approach without any hard evidence would be helpful or meaningful.! Maybe I miss some facts.
-"But that's nothing new and not a sign of decay unless someone can show it has gotten worse."
-As I mentioned before the Quasi dogmatic principles is a real thing in science and its responsible for the inertia at any change of our epistemology. Verification is a time consuming process.
-"Of course one could then ask if it is science that has decayed or scientists who have deteriorated."
-I could easily agree on that.! I even have a long list of scientists practicing pseudo philosophy with a white cloak.
-"But I can't fully separate out a Platonic form science from the in situ mediated form I encounter, much as I try to point at the Ideal form when encountering some scientists and more commonly their groupies (not a dig at you, you know way too much to be categorized that way. In fact the people who annoy me would likely in practice go against your defaults with regularly and thus have problems with you also.) "
-Natural philosophy turned in to "science'' because of this issue. Our methods and standards of evaluation is what protects our Science(epistemology) from Science (Establishment).
I don't really disagree with what you say. I can only see my self adding to your statements or going a bit deeper. The only point I don't really get is your position on QM. What observation in QM do you think creates the biggest trouble for our current paradigm?