Comments

  • What is metaphysics? Yet again.

    Its specific to Philosophy and Science. Using Hypotheses is how we do Metaphysics. We hypothesize.
  • A first cause is logically necessary

    -"5. Infinitely prior, and infinitely looped causality, all have one final question of causality that needs answering. "Why would it be that there exists an infinite prior or infinitely looped causality in existence? These two terms will be combined into one, "Infinite causality."
    - First of all causality doesn't exist. Its an abstract concept we as observers use to identify the order between interactions among entities and forces. Causality is a real phenomenon enabled by the EXISTENCE of those entities and forces.
    Secondly "why" questions are useless when we deal with a fact of natural.There aren't any answers for "why" teleological questions about nature.
    Why previously aroused electrons "create" new particles out of thin air?.....Becausssse....This is how nature works at its fundamental scale. This is what energy does.....produces work. Work causes things.
  • A first cause is logically necessary

    -"I have concluded that the nature of existence necessitates a "first cause"."
    -First of all you should use abstract concepts to philosophize because you are making judgments irrelevant to the actual phenomenon in question.
    Now you first need to define this nature of existence in order to argue about it.
    Lastly I don't know if anyone can demonstrate non existence (nothingness). Based on our current epistemology we can not verify "nothing" as a possible......."state?". Nothing is the absence of all states.
    From a scientific perspective our observations of quantum fluctuations point to a cosmic substrate(cosmos) that could easily always exist.
    What we label "first cause" are just random fluctuations in this cosmic energetic field that force a local change of state resulting to the emergence of temporal and spatial properties. This change we call the existence of a universe.
  • What is metaphysics? Yet again.

    I agree and disagree in many points.

    -"On this forum, I've been struggling to separate "Metaphysics" from its "Supernatural" heritage in Western Religion. That's why I have suggested going back beyond (meta-) Christian Theology to see what non-religious Aristotle was actually talking about."
    -Correct The first word refers to claims that are beyond our current knowledge and the second refers to claims that are Above nature.

    -"As you noted, it certainly wasn't about anything supernatural or spooky, but about making a philosophical distinction between Qualia & Quanta, between Potential & Actual, and betwixt Cause & Effect."
    _Well metaphysics is ANY claim that makes hypotheses beyond our current knowledge.It isn't limited to any specific philosophical distinction. Those are conversations based on metaphysical hypotheses on the differences in the ontology of those phenomena.
    -the big bang cosmology before its verification was metaphysics.
    -Germ theory was metaphysics and it was assumed a supernatural one (Agents in addition to nature)
    -Continental drift theory was metaphysics until we measured the shifting of tectonic plates.
    etc.

    -"Unfortunately, to this day we still portray Mind metaphorically as a Brain, which leads some to think that only Matter matters for thinking."
    -Well that is not metaphysics for Neuroscience. The Mind is what the brain produces. Its like. Material structures and their function are Necessary and Sufficient explanations for the emergence of mental properties and states. The total sum of all those mental properties are labeled "Mind".
    Metaphysics (working hypotheses) are the frameworks that are tested in order to find how symbolic thinking, or specific consicous states or pattern recognition abilities emerge.

    "His metaphysical category could be interpreted as "more comprehensive" or even "transcendent", in the sense that he thought of Philosophy as going "beyond" the Space-Time & Thermodynamic boundary of Physics into the realm of Mind & Ideas, that are only limited by Logical laws. Thus, adding Philosophical science to Physical science. Aristotle even tried to fit Plato's ideal Forms into physical Shapes, by insisting that Forms do not exist independently of Things."
    -Today we identify such "transcendent" type of metaphysics as pseudo philosophy when our new data do not offer evidence for such hypotheses. We have a decent amount of epistemology and a constantly verified Scientific Paradigm to evaluate claims that are in conflict with what we currently know and can verify. Any claim that is

    And that is equivalent to the notion -- common among Information scientists -- that what we now call "Information", is physical, in the sense of embodied ideas. But, in my holistic view, Information is both Physical (effect) and Meta-Physical (cause). That's a delicate distinction, but it could clear-up millennia of misunderstanding in Philosophy and Science.
    PHilosophical science already exists in Science. Science began its life as Methodological Naturalism. In its core it is just Philosophy on Naturalisitc principles with an empirical set of methodologies.
    The problem of Philosophy starts every single time one decides to either ignore our current epistemology, go against it or use Non naturalistic principles.
    Then we are dealing with Pseudo philosophy

    Meta- :
    Original Greek meaning — Meta (from the Greek μετά, meta, meaning "after" or "beyond") is a prefix meaning "more comprehensive" or "transcending."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta
    -Well "beyond" in Greek is 'Πέρα από". "Beyond" is implied. i.e. After two exits you turn left....so your destination is beyond those two exits.
    The main confusion is with the word Physics.It refers to our work in science (Physika is the actual word) Aristotle did his "physika" (studied the world) and after he reflected on the new findings. The philosophical endeavor that tries to understand and glue new data, old epistemology or philosophy with new philosophical frameworks through reasoning is labeled Metaphysics.

    Potential :
    "Aristotle describes potentiality and actuality, or potency and action, as one of several distinctions between things that exist or do not exist. In a sense, a thing that exists potentially does not exist, but the potential does exist."
    -I don't find such ideas useful because we humans have shown that we are really bad in our ontology.
    Great examples are Alchemists wasting resources for ages to chemically produce valuable metals, Chemists delaying the evolution of atomic physics by insisting in the existence of Phlogiston, People conned or dying while believing in Miasma and Panacea....and Biology refusing to tackle for ages emergent phenomena like Life or Mind.

    Note -- even physical science finds the meta-physical notion of not-yet-real Potential to be useful in the Real world. For example, the Voltage of a battery is nothing-but Static Potential, until it is actualized into Active Amperage. We can't see or touch meta-physical Potential with our senses, but we can imagine it with our minds.
    -It isn't a metaphysical notion from the moment it is observed and can be quantified in everyday phenomena. Stored energy is the potential to produce work...so its nothing metaphysical about it. i.e. As a cyclist I understand the potential energy I gather when climbing a hill.
    Again Physics (physika) in Metaphysics has nothing to do with Physical properties(spatial). It refers to our epistemology gathered and refined by science.
  • What is metaphysics? Yet again.

    -"This is an interpretation of the meaning of "metaphysics" I've never heard before. Based on the limited amount I have read, I don't find it very convincing.''
    -Well this is the official meaning of the word in Philosophy. The philosophy that projects beyond our current epistemology.
    There is good metaphysics, where one reflects on the new findings of science and tries to puzzles together our previous epistemology and the new implications and there is bad metaphysics where one starts from unfounded assumptions/ existential claims (theism, idealism) and ends up with more unfounded assertions.

    -"Even for a word such as "metaphysics," where there is such confusion and disagreement about it's meaning, this seems clearly wrong to me. Your argument sounds a lot like the one @Gnomon was making previously in this thread."
    -Its not an argument. I describe facts. I came in Greece in an early age. Here they have an obsession with the legacy of their classical Philosophers so from early age we start learning the basics.
    I understand that people and time tend to distort words and common usages but that usage is the original, official and only useful, since for almost any other usage we already have words for them.

    There is a great talk by Richard Carrier on why philosophy isn't stupid and why most scientists think it is. In order to build his case he provides definitions on many basic terms. There you will find a clear definition of this word.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLvWz9GQ3PQ
  • What is metaphysics? Yet again.

    No it doesn't mean "outside physics".
    That would be the term "υπερφυσικός" or supernatural (beyond nature).
    The term Metaphysics from the Greek "μετα"(Αfter) and "φυσικά" (physika) was first coined by Andronicus of Rhodes who was organizing and publishing Aristotle's work.(~100 years after the death of Aristotle).
    He stumbled upon Aristotle's thoughts on the implications his work "Physika" had in his philosophy, so he literally labeled that work "Meta/After (Aristotle's) Physika".
    Now the term Physika(φυσική) back then was synonymous to "επιστήμη"/science since the study of Nature(Φυση) was literally the first discipline. When more disciplines were created Physika/physics took its place as one of them.

    So in plain words "Metaphysics" just means: The philosophical work we do AFTER we have finished doing our scientific investigations. Its labels our philosophical efforts to understand what those new scientific data mean for our understanding and what are the implications on our current epistemology and the world.
    This is why Aristotle included Physika(Science) as the second most important step in any philosophical inquiry. He knew that our philosophy should include our epistemology and our science in order for any of our hypotheses to be meaningful or reasonable.

    Any hypotheses of science is nothing more than Metaphysics. Only after we verify or falsify them, they either become Theories(part of our Epistemology) or they are dismissed.
  • The Decay of Science

    " Which similar expressions you refer to? You think QM can be applied to sea waves or oil drops?"
    No I didn't say that. I said that similar phenomena described and predicted in QM can be observed in the classical world.
    https://thefutureofthings.com/3698-the-wave-that-changed-science/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIyTZDHuarQ

    -"Not sure what you mean by projecting advanced properties, (mental properties) to the quantum level."
    -when people believe that quantum fields can produce mind properties,chemical properties, biological etc...while they can only enable kinetic properties.
    You mean explaining consciousness by QM (with which I disagree), or projecting classical macro propertiesGraveItty

    -" You mean explaining consciousness by QM (with which I disagree), or projecting classical macro properties to the quantum realm (with which I agree)?"
    -Both.

    -"What is the verified scientific paradigm? "
    -The naturalistic paradigm that verified the need of low level mechanisms(structure and function) in order for new advanced properties to emerge. i.e. properties like chemical, biological and mental are contingent to specific structures and functions.
  • The Decay of Science
    those described by Quantum Mechanics
    The following article of Britannica it mentions more of the properties we can measure.
  • The Decay of Science
    No worries,I only wanted to avoid strawmanning your position. Sure, we can even observe similar expressions in far larger physical structures (i.e. sea waves, oil droplets etc) so our ability to describe similar kinetic properties in physical interactions expand beyond the quantum scale.
    The problem arises when people go beyond those kinetic/energetic properties by projecting Advanced Properties (i.e. mental properties) at a quantum level. That is in direct conflict with our verified Scientific Paradigm.
  • The Decay of Science
    in QM calculate and predict the mechanics of particles. We calculate different characteristics of the smallest packets of energy (quanta/the minimum amount of any physical entity) detectable and measurable through their interactions.
    Quantum mechanics deal with subatomic entities and their discrete quantity of energy.
  • The Decay of Science


    -"No. The statement goes like this, that QM theories are speculative which poses a danger to scientific activities. You live long enough in speculations, you get the dismantling of scientific evidence."
    - The longevity of any speculation can never be a threat for Science. Scientific evidence can only be challenged by new evidence.

    -"No it isn't. Probabilities are put in place of exact measures -- because if we're not relying on absolute space and causality, then what's left to prove one's point? To say QM is ontologically probabilistic is good to include in this discussion. It needs to be discussed. If you claim that it is just the observer that's doing the probabilistic calculation, then do you or do you not support the classical physics?"
    - I don't really get your point, maybe you use a different definition for QM and Probability.
    Can you provide your personal understanding for those concepts?

    These are mine and Science's.
    Quantum mechanics are mathematical formulations that allow us to produce accurate Mechanical descriptions for the "behavior" of quantum elements. QM can accurately predict a spectrum of values for random "expressions" displayed by energetic glitches that seem to display an inherent fluctuation.

    The notion of probability has been developed as a scientific tool to describe uncertain phenomena in science. By calculating probabilities we introduce a "countable additive measure" for systems displaying "randomness", either due to hidden non local variables or due to incomplete information.

    -"No, I don't think there's a definitive answer to the "wrongness" of quantum theories, I think what the critics are saying is, there shouldn't be multi-ontological theory depending on the size of the world we're investigating. There is just one world. "
    -We don't have any falsifiable theories on how larger scales emerge from the quantum world. So talking about right or wrong is meaningless.
    If we take in to account the property of Emergence in matter's structures and properties ,we might never get an answer to that question.
    What we have is more than 10 competing Interpretations but none of them are a threat to the Principles of Methodological Naturalism or our current paradigm. They are all at the state of "not even wrong".
  • The Decay of Science

    -"Well, if we find evidence that natural mechanism change over time - constants and laws - then they are challenged."
    -Yes this is the actual observation (under specific conditions) that we need to verify in order to justify any challenge, but as I said, I am not sure that we currently have any indications to even think about it.

    -''I think the complaint is that qm is ontologically probablisitic, for example. Also that 'things' can be in different potential states at the same time. Of course the evidence is unbelievably strong or they never would have accepted QM and initial resistance was strong. It's that it points, as does relativity theory, to ontological ideas that went not only against common sense but against assumptions in science in general. I have no problem with this, but some do.'
    -Well probabilities are calculated by thinking agents in their efforts to predict the outcome of a system,so its more of an observer relative term than an intrinsic feature of the ontology of a natural system.
    I can not see any meaning in the statement "qm is ontologically probabilistic". We as observers calculate probabilities in order to make a prediction.
    QM doesn't have an ontology...its a methodology in a specific discipline of science. If they refer to the quantum world, well its ontology is materialistic since QP studies matter in its energetic form.

    -" Also that 'things' can be in different potential states at the same time."
    -That is an other misconception on what QM says. The actual statement is that the states of fundamental particles have many probable values Until we do our measurement and pinpoint that actual value. The "wave function" that derives from our formulation inform us for all those possible values that a specific particle might be. When we do our measurement we can point out the specific value and get rid the rest of the probable values that our math were predicting.
    ITs bad language used to describe a really simple thing.
    Let me give you a real life example.When playing hide and seek in a room there is a number of potential hiding places one can be. When you start searching for him,at that "same" time he can (potentially) be in any of those places. That doesn't mean that he "occupies" all of them at the same time. The term "at the same time" is statistically speaking!

    -" Of course the evidence is unbelievably strong or they never would have accepted QM and initial resistance was strong."
    -The resistance was strong because we had to wait for many years in order to be sure that the "inexactness" we get was not a measurement issue, but an intrinsic feature of the system.
    This noise and fuzziness exist when we try to measure highly energetic fundamental elements of matter.

    -" It's that it points, as does relativity theory, to ontological ideas that went not only against common sense but against assumptions in science in general."
    -Either than the counter intuitive picture we receive for the behavior of those entities, nothing that we observe goes against the basic principles of science.
    As I said, its a problem of language, not part of our actual observations.

    -"Sure, though aren't they getting qm effects at larger scales."
    -Correct, but those phenomena are Similar....not QM effects that bleed over larger scales.
    i.e. we have observed that sea waves can draw "energy" from their neighboring "peaks" and produce monster waves. We have measured such monster waves at oil rigs and it is something that we observe in the quantum world. This resembles quantum tunneling (veritasium has an episode on that).
    We observe "entaglement" type of phenomenon when two floating objects "ride" the same ripple of the wave. By looking at the first object we can automatically know the state (amplitude , wavelength etc) of the second one.
    Chaos theory introduces "inexactness" in classical systems too....

    These phenomena are similar but with serious differences so we still need to understand that we are not dealing with the same "stuff".

    -"And since organisms as large as birds use qm effects this means that large things are visibly affected by small scale processes...."
    -Yes this is a different phenomenon than the one in your initial statement :" getting qm effects at larger scales."
    This phenomenon is more like: " quantum mechanism being part of biological functions".
    Quantum biology was founded based on our need to investigate such functions. Bird navigation and photosynthesis are two well known examples of those mechanisms.

    Again I have to stress the need of correct language( I am not a native speaker and that might sound arrogant and silly but bare with me). Saying that "the birds use qm" or that leaves "utilize" qm to produce energy, that alone introduces intention and purpose when its nothing beyond the principles of evolutionary biology! In addition to that, there is nothing "spooky" about those mechanisms to begin with.
    Magnetic fields act on many things not just on birds! We have crystals on rocks revealing us the history of changes in the direction of the magnetic north of earth.
    Leaves(photosynthesis) are not the only classical organs that utilize the abundance of photons in nature . Our eyes do it every time we "see".
    If you "connect" those sensitive elements to a nervous system you get bird navigation and animal vision...simple.
    So there is nothing weird or anomalous about those mechanisms and nothing about them goes against our current scientific paradigm or causality...we literally talking about quantum particles causing things!
    We even build technical applications that use quantum particles to harness their "causality".


    -"I am not sure what 'our current paradigm would refer to' but it was Caldwell who I think has a problem with QM. I think, but I am not sure, he sees it as having concluded (a little anthropomorphism tossed in) that classical causation does not hold (at least in some processes or at a certain scale so (important jump here)it represents a decay in Science."
    -Even if classical causation didn't hold on...that would say nothing since quantum systems are not classical....they are just far more "fuzzy" to be predicted with accuracy.

    -"Since classical causation must apply, then at least the conclusions in qm must be wrong. Not the data, but any conclusions and any new ontology"
    -Again that is an unfounded assumption in my opinion. Its like expecting the same behavior from liquids and gases. We are talking about two different scales with their respective elements being a product of different ontological mechanisms.
    Again the issue behind these misconceptions are 3.
    1. language 2. language 3. limitations in our observations.
    I stress language as an issue and I provide this last example.
    We say "Electric current flow"...while in reality the movement of electrons don't resample a classical "flow"...not to mention that the motion we observe has nothing to do with flow.
    So we need to reflect on the wording we use to identify things that we find "weird" or counter intuitive or in conflict with science.

    btw we have the same issues with our language in cosmology! Black hole...not a hole, Dark matter...not sure we deal with matter or an emergent property of matter, big bang...not big and it didn't bang!
  • The Decay of Science
    As I discussed with Bylaw, the main error we make is assuming "particles" in the quantum scale should display the same characteristics and properties with objects also called "particles" in the Classic world. Quantum "Particles" are not just much smaller and speedier objects/entities....they are not objects in the classical sense. They are energetic glitches.... that we can detect and quantify their different properties so accurately that we can even produce technical applications.
    Our language which was evolved to describe our world and the baggage our concepts carry create a counter intuitive picture for a scale of reality that has fundamental differences from all other scales.

    I guess in this case the term "quantum particle" is the cockroach.....one cockroach on the kitchen table renders the whole pizza disgusting while a slice of pizza can never "make" a ball of cockroaches eatable.
    People argue that we need to throw the whole pizza out(the scientific picture of reality) for a cockroach that we created by our language and the expectations this word suggests.

    Probability is explained by the uncertainty principle (Ungenauigkeit /inexactness in German), the characteristic of quantum glitches to display regular and quantifiable fuzzy properties.
  • The Decay of Science
    Does it really do that? What is the actual observation that manages that blow to causality?
  • The Decay of Science

    -"Sure, but the idea that laws are timeless and universal can be challenged. Which means they weren't necessarily wrong before, but the conclusion that they were built permanently into the fabric of the whole universe could be incorrect."
    -Sure, any idea can be challenged on reasonable doubts and objective facts.
    First of all we need to distinquish the concept of laws as "human narratives" and the Regularity of the processes driving Phenomena in nature(attempted to be described by our laws ).
    Human narratives can change due to new evidence. So we can challenge the longevity of our descriptions. I am not sure that we can successfully challenge the regularity or longevity of natural mechanism and properties.
    Regularity is a basic quality in Nature and both concepts of timeless and universal are in agreement with that. Sure we can not prove or disprove this claim, so I look it more as a Pragmatic Necessity due to our limited observations. Its like the logical absolutes and any other axiom to be honest. They are all accepted as such.... as long as we are keep verifying them with every use.
    I see what you say but I can not really challenge them solely on the lack of a mathematical type of proof. In science we use induction and the power in this type of reasoning comes directly from the risk we take to predict things. Tautologies(deduction) do not offer valuable predictions at all!
    So we can agree there is a risk in that "assumption" but it is a beneficial UNTIL it is unable to produce predictions.

    -"IOW what you write here is not relevant to the issue I was raising.
    Our frameworks were never considered as "absolute truths", again science doesn't play the "absolute truth" game."

    -You are right, this is why I stated:"The above remarks are not necessary in conflict with what you stated, I only included them as additional information in the discussion."
    My point was that since science doesn't deal with "absolute truth"...we need to expect changes in our frameworks since they are only the product of our current observations and understanding.

    -"What you just presented here is a position that some scientists have (only humans can have biases and positions) but others do not. I'd say I am a kind of Pragmatist so I don't have a problem with your position here, in fact, I would say I agree with it. More than that I think that was what I was saying to Caldwell, though I am not sure exactly what his position is."
    -Those "scientists" who don't share this position are not doing science...its that simple. They are either using the Principles of Methodological Naturalism or they are doing some kind of "philosophy".
    So from your writings I see you understand how science sets our limitations in our philosophical interpretations and thus protects our epistemology from any pollution by low quality intellectual artifacts

    -" But it seems to be that QM includes theories (or hypotheses that he considers unjustly accepted) that go against things like clearcut causal laws, so this is decay.""
    -Well that is a misconception. After all QM is science's most successive formulations offering predictions with up to 99,999...up to 14 decimal places....accuracy.
    So the "noise'' in our observations of the QM (btw by "observation" we mean crashing bozons and fermions to figure out their spatial/energetic properties) is there but we can verify the Regular Nature of Reality and we have the ability to make predictions (in a probabilistic way) with high accuracy. IT's not the first time in science that we have to represent our predictions by using a "bell curve". (its a first for physics).
    Observation Objectivity Collapse( in playing English...meshing with the system we try to observe) is around Social sciences for way too many decades...but when we experience it in other physical systems it somehow becomes a problem for causality.
    This is long conversation but one thing is sure. QM verify our current Scientific Paradigm even if we can not figure out its relationship with the rest of the physical scales.

    -" I understand that absolute knowledge or truth as Science's goals are popular beliefs,but they couldn't be further from the truth. — Nickolasgaspar
    I'll just say you seem to be assuming things about my beliefs or the position I presented which are not the case. And again, Science can't have goals. Only living organisms can. (with a proviso that future evidence might alter my position on this:joke:)"
    -Sorry again I should have placed that disclaimer on the top. I was just adding arguments to your comment.

    -"I claim no expertise about Newton, but it has been presented to me from hundreds of (perhaps weak) sources that he did in fact believe in absolute time and space."
    -I was only referring to Gravity to be honest.

    -"Time, in this conception, was external to the universe, and so must be measured independently of the universe. It would continue even if the universe were completely empty of all matter and objects, and essentially represented a kind of container or stage setting within which physical phenomena occur in a completely deterministic way. In Newton’s own words: “absolute, true and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external”."
    -I wouldn't interpret Newton's idea on time as being external to the universe...more like a governing force of the universe. Either way he was wrong. Time is a phenomenon created by evolving processes and affected by other processes.

    -"Great. I have to add that I really wish this was the way scientists, in general, acted. You are talking about 'the default position' Science can't have a default position, people have them."
    -Well I am talking about using the Null Hypothesis to arrive to the Default position on a specific ontological topic. So Logic should force those people who do science to adopt a specific position as Default. Sure science is just a methodology and a bunch of philosophical assumptions(MN). Logic is what should guide Scientists.

    -"n fact ironically Caldwell's reaction (which I may be misinterpreting) to QM seems like what I experience in my interaction with the majority of scientists I've met: they don't withhold beliefs. They evaluate intuitively or deductively beliefs that contradict or seem to contradict or might contradict or just seem weird based on their sene of current models, ontologies and theories. And they often rapidly dismiss things that, were your sense of the default in praxis accurate IRL, they should not given what science is. And they do this with peers also. To bring back Newton, there is a lot of inertia when encountering new and 'strange' ideas. Bodies at rest and in motion and all that...."
    -Well to be honest, QM is just counter intuitive and that is mainly caused by our language.
    i.e. We use the word "particle", a concept that for centuries was used to describe an entity in the Classic World. Entities of the classic world have specific spatial and temporal behavior. Now we use the same label to describe an energetic glitch in a field but our expectations for its behavior are borrowed by the classical world! We shouldn't maintain the same expectations from matter at such an energetic state and we should take in to account the way we make observations at that scale!
    So most interpretations read far more things from our observations and they attempt to deduce directly one scale of reality to an other. I am not sure that a different approach without any hard evidence would be helpful or meaningful.! Maybe I miss some facts.

    -"But that's nothing new and not a sign of decay unless someone can show it has gotten worse."
    -As I mentioned before the Quasi dogmatic principles is a real thing in science and its responsible for the inertia at any change of our epistemology. Verification is a time consuming process.

    -"Of course one could then ask if it is science that has decayed or scientists who have deteriorated."
    -I could easily agree on that.! I even have a long list of scientists practicing pseudo philosophy with a white cloak.


    -"But I can't fully separate out a Platonic form science from the in situ mediated form I encounter, much as I try to point at the Ideal form when encountering some scientists and more commonly their groupies (not a dig at you, you know way too much to be categorized that way. In fact the people who annoy me would likely in practice go against your defaults with regularly and thus have problems with you also.) "
    -Natural philosophy turned in to "science'' because of this issue. Our methods and standards of evaluation is what protects our Science(epistemology) from Science (Establishment).

    I don't really disagree with what you say. I can only see my self adding to your statements or going a bit deeper. The only point I don't really get is your position on QM. What observation in QM do you think creates the biggest trouble for our current paradigm?
  • The Decay of Science
    Many points to agree with and many that I find a bit off.
    All scientific laws are descriptive...this means that if they stop describing our observations accurately they are challenged by default. Our frameworks were never considered as "absolute truths", again science doesn't play the "absolute truth" game.
    Science produces data and offers descriptive law like generalizations based on Naturalistic principles...not because of a philosophical bias but due to Pragmatic Necessity since they are the only testable and objectively falsifiable.

    I understand that absolute knowledge or truth as Science's goals are popular beliefs,but they couldn't be further from the truth. Science offers tentative positions because our observations are based on our technology. Our technology advances so our observations always change and new facts become available. The Quasi dogmatic* principle can only slow down the process of replacing old successful frameworks but that is only because we need to have and study a "black box" in order to see why a theory crashed and burned. (*Paul Hoyningen: Systematicity the Nature of Science).

    The fact is that most of our new observations and facts, refine our frameworks, they do not really change much of the picture and this is why we are confident having the same Scientific Paradigm and the same naturalistic principles for almost 500 years now.
    The above remarks are not necessary in conflict with what you stated, I only included them as additional information in the discussion.

    -" Conclusions that seem to challenge traditional ontologies are not decaying science."
    -"If the research, data collection, protocols and so on were unsound, that's a problem, which might or might not decay science if endemic."
    - "Science is a set of methodologies. They lead us where they will. And they may lead away from some folk theories that seemed obvious to the consensus of scientists for a long time."

    -I agree in all three of the above statements.

    -"Or we could call some of these ontological assumptions/conclusions 'heuristics' that are not useful in certain contexts. I mean, we know from Einstein that some of Newton's ontology was incorrect."
    -Well to be fair towards Newton, he never included any ontology in his mathematical formulations. To be more precise he never published a theory, his Theory of Gravity is not a theory! Its a law in the form of a mathematical description!. There is even an anecdote informing people to call the phenomenon whatever they want (energy, force etc)...
    Others rushed in to ad their narrative on what his equations implied.
    Now Einstein's theory does make ontological claims about Gravity. Erik Verlinde's new Theory on Emergent Gravity suggest an new ontology. Newtons math just describes what the phenomenon actually does.
    In science, ontological explanations are descriptive.....they are not speculative of entities or substances etc. And even when they suggest an existential claim (in the for of Hypotheses) they really informed and based on known entities that display similar qualities and properties. (i.e. Higgs Boson,).

    -" We have repeatedly shown this via what seem like sound protocols. That's just fine. We can still use Newton's formula's in many contexts, but let go of the ontology, not that most people do. "
    -Agreed.

    I feel the need to highlight an important distinction.
    Science deals with ontological descriptions within the observable reality and we don't know if its unobservable part (if there is one) is capable to hide a different ontology. So the default position is to accept the ontology we know it is possible and withhold belief to any unfounded claim.
    When people try to talk about that "part of reality", we are dealing with Meta ontology.
    Science, philosophy and this conversation for that "meta" part of reality are not at the same ball park.
    So non naturalistic principles(an assumed meta ontology) are not and shouldn't be part of our philosophical narrative inside or outside of science. We need to be careful with our principles when we try to interpret new facts and evidence. i.w. A Natural law is not in question or under fire when people decide to interpret the available evidence by using unfounded principles(non natural). Those principles need to be verified...not assumed.
  • The Decay of Science
    why are you confusing physicalism with science? The philosophical views of scientists are irrelevant to their work or their methods and standards of evaluation.
    -" The jury was out on God, and it still should be."
    -Why are you including religious artifacts in a conversation about science?
  • The Decay of Science
    how those standards are challenged? How does "Duality" challenge the scientific standards of evaluation?
  • The Decay of Science

    Its easy to answer that question. Name one framework that isn't compatible with the principles of Methodological Naturalism and doesn't meet the standards of evidence demanded by science (objectivity/independent verification, Demarcation/ tentative nature etc)and unable to offer Accurate descriptions, testable predictions and technical applications.
    Just one will prove the decay of science as a real threat and a fact.

    IMO most people who make that claim don't really understand the scientific procedure and the self correcting mechanism that is included in its methodologies.
  • The Decay of Science
    You will need to define what you mean by "science".
    "Science" refers to 3 main aspects:
    1. The Academic Establishment
    2. The Set of Methodologies and Standards of Theoretical evaluations.(what we wrongly refer as Scientific Method)
    3. The produced outcome (scientific epistemology).

    If one of those aspects decays...it will take the rest of them with it.
    From your comment I understand that you are pointing to political and economical practices misrepresenting science. That is a completely different issue and has nothing to do with how science functions.
    If you refer to Medical Science I will point out that you are addressing a commercial application of Science , not an Academic discipline like Biology.
  • The Decay of Science
    You are confusing Science with Economics and Politics.
    Any type of knowledge fuels our commercial practices, but that is not Science's intrinsic goal.
    Are our current establishments using Science for their own benefits and agenda. Sure they do.
    Does that mean that they can introduce their "epistemology" as science, no they can not.
    Science as a method can't be affected or decay.
  • The Decay of Science
    Here are simple example on the problem and its extensive implications.
    We have Consequentialism the main philosophical principle behind Secular Morality and our ability to produce objective moral evaluations, but we still have "philosophers" arguing and publishing papers on Divine or Absolute Morality (vs. authoritarianism / absolutism).
    We have Aesthetic Relativism explaining different human preferences but we still see philosophers arguing in favor of cosmic aesthetics or confusing aesthetics as an extension of morality.
    We have Evidentialism and Objectivism still giving a fight against mysticism, authoritarianism, dogmatism, a priori facts, faith. (I see disagreement falling in this category)
    We have real life Political( and economics) Ideas ignoring Human rights and well being. ( exploiting humans as a mean to an end... for backing up a specific social organization system and meeting economic markers).
    We have Naturalism still fighting against the epistemically failed principles of Idealism and Supernaturalism....and of course the pseudo idea of "free will" justifying unscientific social practices.

    All the above Philosophical clashes are not limited inside the pages of philosophical journalism.Unfortunately they fuel and provide justification to outdated and unscientific solutions by which we insist to organizeour societies....so the implications are serious far more extensive and affect all of us.
  • The Decay of Science
    -"Well, I do not read bad philosophical articles."
    -You may not, but many do. Metaphysics specifically suffer by bad non naturalistic speculative frameworks from philosophers and scientists who find a way to publish their ideas outside the difficult "audience" of science.

    -"Why do you think academia is flooded by bad philosophy?"
    -Again its not my personal thought. Its a fact that many philosophers point out.IF you subscribe to Academia.edu you will receive all kind of "news letters" on new publications spanning from "the role of intuition"(while Psychologist Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel in Economics by exposing intuition's untrustworthy nature as a heuristic) to papers about the " improper implications of an improper undertanding of genesis 1-1 and arguments on Ockham's razor simplicity(when its all about necessity).

    -" It is also a tough proposition to test because there is less of an agreed upon method in philosophy than in the natural sciences."
    -Not really , because its not about the method, even if Aristotle has defined the philosophical method almost ~2200 years ago. Its about epistemically failed and unfounded non naturalistic presumptions that people use to guide their interpretations.
    Science has far more high numbers in its methodological approaches but the Principles(Methodological Naturalism) and standard of Evaluation are all the same. i.e. Sting Theory may not meet those standards(Objectivity, independent verification, falsifiability etc) but the principles behind its conclusions are naturalistic, in agreement with the current scientific paradigm and there are ideas on how to be tested with possible future technologies.

    -"The problem is that you use similar criteria to judge the two enterprises, I think that is not productive. Studying the natural world is a different enterprise from studying the social world, let alone question our deep seated assumptions."
    -This is what I argue. This is the reason why Philosophy only has a handful of major advances to display while Science as a philosophical category is enjoying a long lasting run away success in epistemology.
    This is the main reason why most people still lose their time with pseudo philosophical principles .
    Well we also have social sciences studying the "social world" but you don't see they using theology or idealism or supernaturalism to produce knowledge or wise claims on what we try to explain or solve.
    Again the problem rises because of that Special Pleading you mention. The standards of logic and evaluation plus our principles SHOULD be the same for ALL our intellectual endeavors.
    Sure Philosophy tackles a far wider spectrum of questions but that should not let it off the hook from obeying logic, verified epistemology and epistemically successful principles and presuppositions.

    That is a common misconception many people hold about Philosophy. For some weird reason, the rules , criteria and principles of Logic shouldn't apply on our Philosophical inquiries. Verified knowledge can be ignore for the shake of people presumptions and Objectivity and evidence based evaluations are viewed as unnecessary in our conclusions.
    All those attempts to free our thinking from the rules of logic and credible methods of evaluation are responsible for the see of pseudo philosophy that floods our philosophy daily.

    -"They have pointed out the intertwinement of politics and science, where politics is understood in a broad sense. The nfluence of epistemic communities, different schools of thought, the importance of aqcademic prestige and the influence of publication pressure on the rigour of the scientific process. We see that in action in the corona pandemic. The science is the same right, however every country chooses different paths and virologists from Sweden disagree with those from the Netherlands and both are held in high regard in the scientific community."
    -All those are true...but again in order to prove that those affect our body of epistemology you will need to point out cases where pseudo science has been accepted as scientific knowledge for respectful period.
    You will not find any due to science's self correcting mechanism that philosophy doesn't have.
    Independent verification is needed for any claim to be remain as part of our epistemology so any attempt to sneak in an idea (cold fusion,Sheldreak's woo) all fall short in the long run.

    -"I do not know which journals you read... I do not see philosophy dealing with an outdated metaphysics."
    -You need to investigate it. Try subscribing to some of them.

    -"This result oriented view is actually exactly what might be criticized. You say "we should always judge a procedure by its outcomes" but whether we in fact should is a philosophical quetion not a scientific one. "
    -Actually this is a criterion we use to identify pseudo philosophy..."philosophical" conclusions that insist in using epistemically failed principles or outdated knowledge in their interpretations.
    So of course we should judge a philosophy when it doesn't offer WISE claims about our world. When the claims are for "other worlds or dimensions" the we are dealing with religious claims, not philosophical ideas that can assist us in understanding this world.

    -"Good god, the screaming is hurting my ears. Luckily you do not get to decide what philosophers should do no matter how hard you wag your fist and how many capital letters you use. Of course learning can never harm, but you seem to buy into the iddea that there is one sort of criterion according to which every endeavour should be judged. It is an open question whether there is such a criterion."
    -So IMHO you are part of the problem. There is not an open question about it. Its something that Bunge and Hoyningen and Richard Carrier and many others have being pointing out and it is something that can be verified by the results. ITs the reason why many scientists accuse Philosophy for not contributing to our advances...while they are doing philosophy to conclude to that position.
    So Philosophy is not the problem here but how people tend to do philosophy!

    -"Or we shpuld read people like Latour, Daston and Beck who take a sociological approach to science. That way science learns something about itself and that in the end is I think the goal of philosophy. It is a hermenutic endeavour and not as you seem to think a descriptive one."

    -That is an irrelevant aspect that has nothing to do with the main problem of Philosophy. You are arguing about a completely different topic. Nothing of what I say keeps us from doing philosophy of science. And again... any hermenutic endeavour should be interpreted by the same standards and principles.
    Tobias
  • The Decay of Science

    -"I am not saying science is decaying, I am saying that, if we want to answer the question we have to come to terms with what we mean when we speak of science."
    -Correct in every philosophical discussions all definitions should be offered before talking past each other.

    -" Sure, academic scientific endeavour has a review procedure, so does philosophy.. "
    -Yes but philosophy's procedure is inadequate to keep bad philosophy away from its published material.

    -"You seem to hold on to some ideal of value free science, but it is not there."
    -No I am not going to absolute claims. I only state that the scientific establishment makes a far better job in monitor its peer review procedures by using far more strict rules and standards...that's all.

    -"Philosophers and sociologists of science have pointed that out time and again. "
    -They have pointed what?

    -"I suggest reading the work on what they call the 'science policy interface', sheila Jassanoff and Jeremy Ravetz come to mind."
    -We should always judge a procedure by its outcome and science has enjoyed a huge run away success on epistemology while Philosophy still deals with pseudo philosophical worldviews masquerading as valid principles behind many publications.
    We know that in a system where profit is the main player we will always experience drawbacks and delays, specially in scientific fields that are also commercial applications (Medical Science).
    BUt the problem is identified and addressed by removing (better late than ever) anything that sneaks in as "knowledge".
    The issue with Philosophy is that we don't even see any attempts to deal with the problem.

    -"Latour and Woolgar wrote a very interesting book on how 'facts' are produced in laboratories in 1979. Science too rests on arguments of auuthority, paradigms, prestige and citation indices."
    -Yes many philosophers or bitter scientists have accused Science for ignoring the Normative lane.
    BUt again we should judge the procedure by its success not by "how it should be done".
    In other words we should be focusing on Descriptive Science (why it works) not on Normative Science.
    Paul Hoyningen-Huene in his amazing series of lectures on philosophy of Science highlights the lack of interest by many philosophers to focus on what makes Descriptive Science so successful. HIs conclusion identifies 9 main dimensions of the procedure holding Systematicity on top of the list.

    Philosophy SHOULD learn by the strict evaluation standards of science and show equal respect to the rules of logic.
    You keep referring to historical critiques...and I keep referring to established success and why that is the case.
    We should listen to Philosophers like Hoyningen and Bunge that point out the problems in the current Philosophical procedure.
  • The Decay of Science

    Who said they are competitors?
    -"Philosophy and science aren't competitors. In philosophy we find avenues which in the end bear no fruit, but in science we do as well."
    -Why are you mentioning that?

    -"We find articles about subjects that were once hotly debated and have been forgotten nowadays, such as the substance 'Flogiston'."
    -This is before our current scientific paradigm. What "chronicling" has to do with the problems I point out ...which by the way they are not just my observations. Mario Bunge, a philosopher, in his book highlights the same issues and even more


    -"Maybe the same will happen to substances like 'dark matter'.
    -Substance? No the label dark matter doesn't necessary imply a "substance". Have you heard the new theory on Gravity by Erik Verlinde called Emergent Gravity. A new working hypothesis suggest something beyond a specific substance which is in agreement with emergence.
    Either way the phenomenon is observable and the label won't go away like phlogiston did.



    -"The philosophical gaze is different from the scientific one. Philosopy traces concepts taken for granted in science, such as objectivity. See the work of Lorraine Daston and Peter Gallison for an illuminating trip through the history of science and the concept of objectivity. A philosopher such a Latour also points out how science becomes possible due to the specific constellation of people and things."
    -You are off topic. I am pointing out that publications that attempt to explain reality and ideas at the limits of our epistemology and beyond, constantly introduce supernatural principles in their interpretations. That is unacceptable.

    -"To get a grip on the question whether science is in decay we need a firm definition of what science is. Are we speaking about a practice, a method, an institution, or a certain kind of authority? "
    -Science is NOT decaying, neither as a method or an establishment or as a final product ( knowledge/theoretical frameworks). Being an institution within a corrupted economical system will always have its drawbacks but its self-correcting mechanism and monitoring of its peer view process and publications will protect the body of our epistemology from being polluted, something Philosophy can not do.
  • The Decay of Science

    -"Sorry, but it's not the philosophy's fault that there exist useless large volume of publications that are based on unfounded presuppositions. Just like in all schools of thought, or field of study, there's gonna be works that are useless, or unfounded. Don't blame philosophy, though. "
    -We don't find such types of publication in science...so its the fault of Academia for allowing "free inquiry" and unmonitored publications under its name.
    We are talking about the publication of theoretical model based on epistemically failed principles like supernaturalism, theism or idealism
  • Why being anti-work is not wrong.
    However, I think it is a human condition. Hunting-gathering or anarchism or communism or whatever non-industiral-capital form won't change the condition of the needs of survival. It is life itself that puts (de facto) us all in a position of need, and work is one of the biggest (de facto) inescapable set of needs that cannot be overcome without dire consequences."
    -I will agree with your conclusions. Its a condition that all animals(including us) must follow...except from our pets and livestock (maybe parasites too).
    One problem though. Not all humans work since economic inequality is currently one of the last if not the only form of discrimination that's still acceptable by human societies. So human condition is defined by the position one has in his "environment".

    We constantly have been inventing technical solutions that have alleviated or render human effort unnecessary for specific tasks and jobs. Unfortunately our economic system doesn't allow human ingenuity to offer technical solutions that could render repetitive boring works a thing of the past.
    Working or to be more descriptive... doing a specific activity to earn your living might appear to be a human condition, but it is the main reason behind the collapse of our societies and the distraction of human relationships and our ecosystem.,

    -"You don't want more people put into this injustice, don't procreate more people (workers) then."
    Its nice to see that you also identify this injustice!...and yes consciously me and my wife took the decision not have children for this exact reason and I am amazed that other people also see that as a solution to this ethical dilemma.
    schopenhauer1
  • Why being anti-work is not wrong.
    The best way to understand what work is within modern human societies is to check the Greek word.
    Δουλειά=work
    Δουλεία=slavery.
    the only difference is at the intonation of the word.Within human societies the act of working was always a way for a third person to gain profits from other people's efforts.
  • The Decay of Science
    Science is not a just A methodology with a clear structure.
    I will agree that our interpretations of facts are based on logic and our Auxiliary Philosophical Principles are Standard(that of Methodological Naturalism)but no one in science follows a specific set of steps.

    -"In essence we understand consistency, repeatability and predictive value as the core of what is “true” about the natural/ physical world."
    -Well science doesn't claim to be in the business of truth. Science sees those criteria as indications of knowledge.Truth is an evaluation used by science at far earlier points in the process, when we screen claims on whether they are in agreement with current facts.
  • True or False logic.

    -"Or the final judgment is not a binary yes, no, true false. IOW we could decide that viruses are something in between a lifeform and not a lifeform. That it would be wrong to categorize it as one and not the other. "
    Correct. As I said there are cases where we don't have the facts to make a judge for the truth value of a claim.
  • Is anyone else concerned with the ubiquitous use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse?

    -"Definition as navigational aid, not as destination. Meaning as destination. "
    Well definitions should be based on direct descriptions. Only then they can be used as navigational aid.
    Meshed up definitions can be equally damaging to definitions promoting a "destination".
  • The Decay of Science

    No I don't misunderstand the methodology and quality of theoretical building in science. I just criticize the objectively low quality of logical standards of those methodologies and the whole evaluation process of the Academia. Those are the reason why pseudo philosophy parades side by side with credible philosophical ideas.
    Rigour is non existent in the academia allowing logical fallacies to play a foundational role in philosophical auxiliary assumptions....under the excuse of ''free inquiry''.
    Most people forget that Science is a philosophical category that produces theoretical frameworks with an unpresident epistemic success, not so much because of its empirical methodologies of investigation but mainly because of the Auxiliary Principles of Methodological Naturalism, the standards of Objectivism and Evidentialism and the absolute obedience to the rules, criteria and principles of Logic used on any scientific finding and interpretation.
    Its not just my personal understanding on the topic. As I already wrote Mario Bunge has recorded far more many issues in our philosophical inquires tin his book Philosophy in crisis.
    Many Naturalists Philosophers point out the epistemically and philosophically useless large volume of publications that are based on unfounded presuppositions that will always remain irrelevant to the rest body of knowledge and wisdom.
  • True or False logic.

    So we don't have the facts to make a final judgment!
  • The Decay of Science

    -"The philosophers of science are the scientists themselves"
    -they are philosophers...but even if they are scientists...they are doing philosophy.

    -" In the philosophy of mathematics, they are the mathematicians themselves."
    -they can be physicists....but again in the philosophy of mathematics...they do philosophy, not science.

    -"Logic, logicians. In my opinion, the rigour of theory building in philosophy requires much more than assiduous research. It is analyzed, debated, proofed, and debated again, then criticized."
    -And what is your point?

    -" I think it's a misconception that physicists change hats between doing physics and doing philosophy. There's not a break in the rigour of their analyses -- they build on the works of past philosophers, not reinvent the wheel"
    -Again you are confusing "science" with what scientists do!
    I stated "Science is guarding its field of publications rigorously with the peer review process, something that Philosophy isn't doing at all."
    This means for a hypothesis to become science, it needs to be objectively verified.
    Unfortunately in philosophy not many care about verification and on top of that their hypotheses can be based on all different types of auxiliary presuppositions.(Supernatural, theological etc).
    In science that is not permitted.

    -"There's not a break in the rigour of their analyses -- they build on the works of past philosophers, not reinvent the wheel."
    -That isn't an argument against Science's monitoring methods of its publications.


    -"No. I disagree very much. This is again misinformation."
    -Then you are wrong. Your philosophy can never be credible if the epistemology you have used to produce your conclusion was not credible too.

    -"I mean, how do we even begin talking about this when the part and parcel are all of the wrong specifications, so to speak. Some members in this forum are well equipped, not to mention eloquent, to tackle this sort of a mess. "
    -You can not argue against a fundamental fact of Philosophy(At least successfully!). Even the philosopher who systematized logic and Philosophy acknowledged that condition. Aristotle refers to the need of our metaphysics to be the product of credible up to date epistemology through the second most important step for every philosophical inquire. That term is Physika (science).
    Logic on its own can not provide wise claims about the world. The GIGO effect is always a threat for our syllogism when we don't have a way to keep "garbage" off our data.
    This is not even a controversial idea.
    Philosophy is the study and production of wise claims about the world(Love of Wisdom) .A claim can not be wise if it isn't the product of knowledge.
  • Is anyone else concerned with the ubiquitous use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse?

    Νah...I don't think so.
    My remark was irrelevant to the OP. I will continue my discussion on it soon. You were asking definitions about the words I use and I just asked your definition about the nature of your questions.
  • Is anyone else concerned with the ubiquitous use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse?

    Define=explain what you mean by that word.
    Definition= your explanation on what you mean by that word.
    This is the only definition we need to start a conversation.
    Whether someone's explanation qualifies as meaningful ....this is what we are discussing here.
  • Is anyone else concerned with the ubiquitous use of undefined terms in philosophical discourse?
    well I guess this is the job of any interlocutor ...to provide the most suitable and clear definition in his attempt to remove any vagueness from the term he uses.
    Recycling a vague definition and pretend it is adequate enough to start a conversation on it...that is an issue.
    I can only speak for my self but I always try to include empirical foundations in all my definitions on abstract concepts...as concrete as a definition of a chair.
  • The Decay of Science

    -"Description can only go so far in providing for prediction. It used to be the case, that prediction was the means of validating the hypothesis (description), as the scientific method. Now, prediction itself is what brings in the money, so no one really cares about the description (hypothesis). And, the mathematics of probability is what enables prediction, so that's where the focus is."


    -The truth is far more complex than those simplifications.
    Scientific Theories have the power to fuel 3 basic aspects of epistemology.
    1. Accurate Descriptions.
    2. Testable Predictions
    3. Technical Applications.
    The No. 3 is what has the power to generate wealth (bring money) ...but that is only possible if a theoretical or a mathematical framework have first the power to produce accurate descriptions and testable predictions. IF not ...we can not produce any applications.

    QM checks all three aspects even if we currently lack a theoretical framework...that to be far has nothing to do with describing the phenomenon but more with our intuitive expectations of how nature should work in relation to our classical world. In QM ur math describe accurately what we observe(99.999999999999999%). Unfortunately "our observations" are not exactly ....observations. We need to crash particles in order to gain any measurement and that means that we need to interact with the system we try to observe.

    Complexity science, emergence and chaos theory etc are some new "tools" that we have develop to study and quantify emergent phenomena that are far more noisy and messy. Statistical probabilities and the presence of ''noise'' were always part of our scientific observations, specially in social sciences...but for a weird reason, when physics reached that point (where our objective observations were compromised and the noise is a notch higher) everybody found an opportunity to push their meta ontology down people throats....and accuse science for letting this happen!
    Nothing is wrong or fabricated or because of money in probabilistic Science!
    Like the reductionistic method....probabilities JUST one more Method available to Science and now Physics needs to use it too!
    Philosophers of sciences tell us again and again, that science is NOT "a method" but an intellectual procedure with numerous methodologies!

Nickolasgaspar

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