Jesus, Nickolast. If that's the world you like to be part of... We are no computers! — Hillary
No , you need empirical verification to identify the correct criteria and principles.Ohh come on now... we need fantasy and imagination to establish our criteria for evidence... they are themselves not evidence based you see... — Tobias
-"Manipulate"!!! ? lol so according to your reasoning Pointing out the weakness in people's reasoning by replacing their flawed assumptions with an obvious false assumption that they care more is manipulation?Sounds to me that you are trying to justify attempts to manipulate people by stealth. This is one reason why few of us trust politicians anymore. Even the ones who are in truth, genuinely trying to be part of the solutions. — universeness
-Why are you hiding behind generalizations? Trickery in arguments IS NOT the same with being dishonest of your demographic or your expertise. The first can easily be part of the tools of Logic and Philosophy provide, while the latter is just what cons do to gain things.For what it's worth, I believe you, but if you practice 'trickery,' then you might get to like it too much if it achieves the results you personally desire. There are only very very rare cases in my opinion when the end justifies the means. — universeness
-Yes and this is why I pointed out that "generalizations" are not helpful. i.e. I can construct a situation where killing an other individual can be the most moral thing to do. Does it mean that it was a trickery or the legal term (Murder) of killing other people should color all acts that have the same outcome?It's probably got to be on a case by case basis — universeness
Again that is an irrelevant statement. It doesn't support your wrong accusation of being dishonest because I exposed someone's irrational standards through a specific example on questionable values.I think it's better to be honest with people, especially with those who you find out are being dishonest with you. — universeness
-If yo declare it as such...sure. But that is an Observer dependent declaration...not an intrinsic feature of the "cause" necessarily. Again you will need to demonstrate the cause and its nature...not just assume it.An irreducible cause can have no deeper natural explanation or explain it's own cause. — Hillary
-An example that is designed to "shock", provokes thinking and expose the gaps in an argument has nothing to do with the value of "right/wrong" or "role playing" or "hate speech". Its a tool that shifts the argument made by the interlocutor to a different topic where his previous biased do not apply.If you roleplay as a misogynist to counter Hillary's tendency to obfuscate then I think two wrongs don't make a right. — universeness
At least the arguments are weaker than the Kalam argument, which itself is not fully convincing. — spirit-salamander
-Hillary...you are really bad in reasoning. Its not for you to decide whether your claim comes with a burden. EVery claim has a burden, whether you want to meet it or not.And neither do I accept the burden to prove gods. You might feel the urge to prove, but something so obviously clear doesn't need proof. — Hillary
Where do I force it on you? If you don't want to believe it's completely up to you mr. Strawman! — Hillary
The point is, I argue from knowledge — Hillary
YOu can only know what our Systematic Epistemology allow us to know. SInce I am also informed of that epistemology, gods are not mentioned or demonstrated objectively or empirically.I know how the universe works, how it came to be, what there was before the big bang, etc. — Hillary
I am not convinced you understand the meaning of the work "logically". Logic is a tool that works with facts and describes their analogies, differences equations and relations in general.The only thing to logically conclude is that gods made it. — Hillary
That can never be default. I suggest you to study Parsimony and the Null hypothesis.The default state is gods plus the universe. — Hillary
lol...hahahahahahahahaha. In order to define the Default Position you need to know how the Null Hypothesis work.Basic logic is great! So when I start from the default state as being true, I don't need to prove it. — Hillary
Thank you Tom. Acceptance and Rejection inform people of my position towards a claim.↪Relativist
I think Nick's point may be that one is not convinced there are good reasons to accept the proposition that gods exist. This is not the same thing as saying they do not exist or are false. — Tom Storm
Again, you are Correct.(Legally a person is found not guilty which does not mean they did not do it, only that the case for their guilt was not made.) — Tom Storm
Me too. I don't need an indefensible burden...no matter how desperate mr Hillary is to force that belief on me.I would say this model amounts to being an atheist regarding your belief, but an agnostic in terms of your knowledge. This a position held by a lot of atheists I know, including me. — Tom Storm
No I only point out that you are an irrational individual for accepting god claims that you can not Objectively demonstrate to be true.You claim they don't exist. Then prove it. You can't. — Hillary
What I reject is your terminology. I explained what I meant, and you seem to insist I use the words the way you choose to use them. — Relativist
"Sure, but the standards jurors apply to verdicts do not prevent a juror from privately forming a belief based on a lower standard. — Relativist
-Correct, I agree, but that doesn't change that acceptance and rejection ONLY describe how we react to a claim and says nothing about the reasons behind our reaction.In everyday life, we form most of our beliefs on a much lower standard than that. — Relativist
-Again what you allow to a jury in a trial with different standards of evidence is irrelevant to the basic rule of logic. I don't accept/I reject A can only inform you on whether I accept or reject A.Consider a civil trial in which jurors are instructed to base judgment on a preponderance of evidence (i.e.slightly more evidence in one direction). Do you allow them to form a private belief on that basis? If so, you should allow them to form a private belief on the same standard in a criminal trial. A private belief needn't correspond to the jury instruction. Belief formation doesn't work that way. — Relativist
-No it isn't. Don't focus on why we demand to demonstrate guiltiness beyond reasonable doubt (its for obvious reasons....the freedom and life of the defendant are in stake).A judgment in a criminal trial is a bit different. I may believe a dependent guilty based on it seeming more likely than not, but acquit because there is reasonable doubt. IOW, I can believe something without being absolutely certain. — Relativist
-Correct.If I accept a proposition, that means I believe it true. — Relativist
Sure , but in reality you reject A (god exists) and accept B(gods do not exist) which is a different claim.On the other hand, I do not reserve judgment as to the existence of gods. I believe these things don't exist. — Relativist
-lol not really.... Do you use the standards to verify whether you are a billionaire or not ? lolThe important thing is if gods exist in someone's experience. If so, gods exist. — Hillary
To me atheism does not make sense. What it tells me is, atheists don't believe in something that never existed in the first place. It's a circular argument. — L'éléphant
A god hypothesis would require atheism to be invalid. We look and that is what we see. Atheism as a non-belief in something never shown to exist is intangible in itself. Atheism is if anything a product of the Bible, a rejection of religion. — Gregory A
-Gregory...you haven't studied the topic, haven't you!Theism offers an explanation for our existence, atheism offers no explanations of its own, a weaker position. — Gregory A
Gregory!!!!(Philosophical)Naturalism is the counter-position of Supernaturalism. You are doing a category error. While Theism is part of Supernaturalism and Atheism only focus on the rejection of the theistic claim.Naturalism is the counter-position to theism, atheism occupying a non-existent middle ground. — Gregory A
-Gregory!!!! you are making a fallacious arguments from false authority. The metaphysical beliefs of humans who happen to work in Scientific field are irrelevant to the evaluation of those beliefs!The majority of the world's scientists, academics, etc. are not atheists accepting religion for what it is, Stephen Jay Gould's non-overlapping magisteria an example. — Gregory A
-Gregory!!!! lol....validity has nothing to do with the reason why a position exists! People make unfounded supernatural claims and other people through reason are free to evaluate them and reject them as irrational!If atheism were valid, atheists would not be able to open their mouths. They would have nothing to talk about. Atheism is in being a-theistic making them a-theists. — Gregory A
The invalidity of atheism does not validate theism, as naturalism may still be right, but atheism needs to be invalid for theism to be right. — Gregory A
You shouldn't ! You should use logic and reject theism as an irrational, not as a wrong belief.Anyhow, why should we listen to those who reject a God (a relatively simple addon) but then continue to believe in mermaids, unicorns etc. — Gregory A
Your claims become weirder and weirder. Atheism has nothing to do with free speech. After all in many countries of this world you can lose your life if you say openly you are an Atheist.Atheism is a rejection of free-speech (primarily another element of the Left). — Gregory A
The Kalam cosmological argument is an argument for the existence of a creator that is often used by theist. it is most notably used by William Lane Craig. I think this argument is a false argument and I will try to explain why here.
First, what is the argument?
Premise 1: "Whatever begins to exist has a cause"
Premise 2: "The universe began to exist"
Conclusion: "The universe has a cause" — Magnus
It could have been such that the universe started in reverse at infinity. But it didn't. — Hillary
↪Nickolasgaspar
It's a very old internet story, isn't it.
You can be unfortunate enough to be exchanging/communicating with a seriously sinister character or an organised group with their own fixed, perhaps even nefarious agenda.
Imho, Hillary is not in either of those categories and I think there are more sinister posters on this site than him but I do also think their numbers are very few. — universeness
Oh, sorry! Were you enjoying your roleplay as a female irrational polytheist with Nickolasgaspar? — universeness
The "plurality" of a claim(ad populum) doesn't benefit the epistemic or philosophical value of it. — Nickolasgaspar
Yes, it does. If not theoretically, then practically. In science we see a theory as accepted when there is a consensus. We don't require 100% acceptance but a reasonable threshold. And I wouldn't call it "ad populum" because we require the consensus among experts not the populus. — ArmChairPhilosopher
Of course there is. Its like saying there is no logic in Philosophy....There is no Null hypothesis is philosophy. And as long as we don't know if we have to tackle the god problem with science or philosophy, we can't require to use the Null hypothesis. — ArmChairPhilosopher
"Exactly. And since I only get contradictory claims from the believers, I don't know how to address the claims. What I do know is that the claims are inconsistent. And I can't conclude that they must be talking about different things as one of the claims is that there is only one god. — ArmChairPhilosopher
You're not even able to understand a tiny part of my cosmology. Let alone the big picture. Sorry Nickolas, but you will continue to live in the dark till you die... :lol: — Hillary
_Why i feel like a dodged a bullet?I can't help it they don't understand my cosmology and I have no intention telling you about it! — Hillary
-that's even better try a new age or a theological forum!I have better means than telling that on a philosophy forum! — Hillary
On the contrary! It provides the most sound arguments. — Hillary
-good luck providing evidence for that assumptions.But the point is that all motion in the universe could be opposite to the motion we observe. — Hillary
-This is the quality of philosophy you have when you ignore the whole epistemic framework on why processes unroll at one direction....Particles will experience the same forces, the universe shrinks, and wavefunction collapses are reversed. — Hillary
-No it only opens question that have already poisoned the well with the fallacy of teleology..but I know logic and soundness is not part of your philosophy..... Saying that there is no place for questioning why this is the case closes the road to comprehension. — Hillary