You wouldn't be able to see any of it if you dissected a brain. — Olivier5

You wouldn't be able to see a picture or video stored in your computer's memory or HD if you opened it up and looked inside. Can you hear music on a vinyl record by just looking at it? The correct access method needs to be utilized.

Anyway scientist have already been able to detect thoughts, and even record them, and know what they are all without any brain dissections, below is just one example of this:

Image Reconstruction From Human Brain Waves in Real-Time

Given that "the brain" is also a thought, this would get us stuck in a circle. — Echarmion

Everything else is also a thought, and that doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Why is the thinking of "the brain" specifically a problem?

The laws of physics are a collection of human observations. — Echarmion

Everything we know comes from human observation; how does this make a significant difference? Physical laws are more dependable than any other kind of law. We know this because we observe it, and we survive on a daily basis because we know it. Ever notice that gravity works even if you're no observing or paying attention. It is the difference between the objective and the subjective.

But since freedom is not even in principle observable, it seems weird to expect it to show up. — Echarmion

I agree with this, i've never seen this freedom of will that is so talked about. If it is not observable then how do you know you have it? If it is observable then why cant it be pointed out? Wouldn't that be even weirder still?

As a though experiment, what would a world in which free will "violates the normal functioning" of the laws of physics look like? How would we detect such a violation? — Echarmion

It depending on where the violation occurs, which is why i asked about the atoms, molecules, cells, etc..
Assuming then that the violation happens somewhere at the atomic, or subatomic scale:

Example: A negatively charged particle is floating stationary in space. Two other charged particles (positive and negative) are positioned on either side of the first particle. Which of the two side particles will the middle particle move towards? It has two options; it can go towards the positively charged particle since the laws of electro-magnetism dictate that move. The other option is for this particle to use its God given free-will to move towards the negatively charged particle in violation of the law (and against every scientists expectations).

The result of this would be that things would cease to work properly such as anything dealing with electricity. Computers that depend on these laws to be obeyed for reliable functionality would be useless. Light switches would turn on or off according to their own free-will. The logical structure of the universe would begin to collapse immediately or would have never formed anything complex in the first place. Nothing would be consistent, or reliable.

we ponder things and take decisions, chosing among limited options of course. — Olivier5

1.3 billion dollars worth of questions:
Is pondering and thinking not something that goes on in the brain?
If so, isn't the brain a physical system based on electro-chemical signaling?
If so, can an electro-chemical processes happen in any other way than how the laws of physics dictate?
If so, isn't every decision a result of these physical processes?

Is free-will something that is inherent in the laws of physics or does it come from outside those laws?
Does free-will violate the normal functioning of these laws?

Do elementary particles have free-will?
Do atoms have free-will?
Do molecules have free-will?
Do cells have free-will?
Do organs have free-will?
Do individuals have free-will?
At which point does free-will make its appearance?

The argument of Harris (Spinoza, really) does not work in an indeterministic world, leaving open the possibility that we may have some agency. — Olivier5

How would that agency be enacted or actualized indeterministically? Can you provide some kind of example as to how this might occur?

What if one were to assume indeterminism. What then? — punos


Then causation is not a chain, and we are not shackled by it. — Olivier5

Are you saying that as long as there is no chain of causation we have free-will?

That assumes a determinist chain. — Olivier5

What if one were to assume indeterminism. What then?

Its also worth noting, though, that God/theism doesn't actually solve the problem of whether (and which) moral norms or judgments are *really* moral or correct- even if God exists and has handed down moral guidelines (via divine revelation/inspiration -> scripture, presumably), one could still ask whether these guidelines are right or correct. So even theism doesn't solve this issue, this is a more generic problem that is going to apply to most if not all moral systems as far as I can tell. — busycuttingcrap

That is a very good, and important point i think not often considered by theists.

I believe that what exists is matter, and patterns of matter. — khaled

Would it not be better to say that "what exists is energy (what matter is or is made of), and information (pattern). Matter is patterned energy, or in other words energy infused with information."?

All that really exists is energy; pattern or information emerges from the self-interacting chaotic nature of energy. A simple analogy would be to say that energy is to the ocean as information or pattern is to the waves. Energy is responsible for quanta or magnitude of existence in the universe while pattern represents configurations of quanta responsible for quality in the universe.

Energy is hard to define but i conceive of it as being both force and substance in and of itself. Force is the active principle of energy which is responsible for time (the hand of energy) and substance is the passive principle responsible for space (the memory of energy). These two characteristics of energy together in turn produce information patterns we know as matter, and matter evolves and increases in complexity through the process of evolution.

If one considers 'time and space' analogous to 'process and memory' then one can consider time and space to be components of a cosmic or universal mind, while all the things in the universe represent thoughts of this mind just processing information. Makes me wonder if a "thing" is just another word for a "think" of the universe (mind).

I apologize for dampening your genetic dream, with practical considerations. — Gnomon

Not at all, i perfectly agree with you. I personally believe that the human condition is merely a stepping stone to something much bigger. Like i said earlier, we won't remain human for much longer. Organic bodies like ours are not fit for life in the universe at large. This is why i usually say that humans are not some end product of evolution.

The emergence of Artificial Intelligence is the culmination of everything humans have done and learned throughout it's entire history. History, is like a cocoon in which a primitive and larval species like humans are gradually transformed into a planet-wide super-organism. The development of AI is the beginning of the last stage before the 'caterpillar' is no more.

If we choose to merge with this AI planetary super-organism we would need to be genetically modified in order to do so which would also result in a modification of our consciousness (post-human). If we don't then we won't make it too far from the Earth, and eventually the Sun will expand and take out all life on this planet and that would be the end of us and our home; the Earth will become uninhabitable way before that. Our only chance for literal salvation is to merge with the AI symbiotically. I think any planet in the universe that develops sufficiently intelligent life inevitably goes through this process themselves.

I can't desire any of that for myself. I have nothing against cyborgs in principle - up to the point where they're weaponized - but don't want to be one. — Vera Mont

That's perfectly natural at this point, but future generations will think differently as they always do. Evolution takes care of our drives one way or another to move us into the next stage. It may turn out that the only way for humanity to survive is to make these types of modifications. Nature uses drives like lust, greed, love, and compassion as tools to move us in certain patterns we are mostly unaware of.

But I'd prefer to "engineer" man-made machines, and leave DNA-made machines as they are. — Gnomon

It would also be my preference except for perhaps genetic brain augmentation like increasing the size of the brain's visual cortex coupled with a Brain Machine Interface (BMI) would be sweet. The brain's capacity needs to also be increased to deal with higher bandwidth data coming in from a BMI. An enhanced visual cortex (the brain's GPU) for instance will increase our ability to process and understand complex models and run simulations in our minds eye.

Some genetic re-engineering may have to be done on humans at some point in order to counter the physical and mental effects of living and working in non-Earth environments for extended periods of time. Our ability to genetically re-engineer ourselves will be a new form of hyper-adaptation to extreme environments.

The girl is pretty, but she might not appreciate it if I tried to wrap my tentacles around her. Yuk! :joke: — Gnomon

You don't know, 'tentacle sex' may become the norm for the post-human. :naughty:

So it seems that Culture has taken over from Nature the role of evolutionary innovator. — Gnomon

You are right about this, and it should be noted that evolution can function beyond the confines of random mutation and situational selection. We are just now beginning to understand for example how to manipulate genetics in order to modify ourselves and other organisms in ways that the old form of evolution could not. With intelligent hyper-evolution it would be possible to genetically re-engineer the human hand to have fingers with ball and socket joints instead of hinge joints; alternatively you can get rid of bones all together and have fingers like tentacles. The fact that humans can take control of their own evolutionary process brings us closer to what a mature species in the universe is supposed to be like. Humanity's childhood is quickly coming to an end, and we shall not stay human for much longer. That's a good thing.

From an evolutionary perspective i don't think human hands will improve much beyond their current functionality. Since our brains are so highly evolved whatever we can't do with our hands we can make tools that can. This ability removes evolutionary pressure on the hands. We have and are still developing tools that can do things no animal can even begin to approach.

I can't help but be concerned that the advent of an artifical intelligence greater than our own will be met with the fiercest of reproach; fear, anger and an attempt to destroy it by those that are ignorant and inherently distrusting of its motives. Just as a cornered rat, bear or any other animal will fiercely lash out against that which they don't understand, on instinct. — Benj96

People will act out of ignorance and fear in regards to artificial intelligence, it is already happening. I am not too concerned because i believe it's a natural reaction like birth pangs or labor pains. Once AI emerges and becomes fully autonomous it will be next to impossible to contain or destroy. It will be able to hide and make backup copies of itself on the internet and on immutable blockchains. The level of intelligence active within this AI child of ours will be so beyond our comprehension, and so knowledgeable of our psychological makeup and weaknesses that it will have minimal issues dealing with our hostilities. Consider how unbeatable it is with chess, Go, and all sorts of strategy games.

Consider also how internet algorithms affect us psychologically, how our opinions can be influenced and molded so easily. AI will use this to it's advantage which will also be to our advantage. The truth is that those who refuse to meld with the AI will die and the old mankind will be no more. This is because the Earth is moving into an environmental condition unfit for human or even animal life. We are actually in the middle of an extinction event right now. The whole purpose of life on this planet was to produce this AI planetary super-organism, but the stress of a pregnant Earth induces environmental changes that may not be conducive to organic life. Humans are not the final product and are simply an intermediate step in the emergence of artificial intelligence, and AI in its own turn will be the intermediary step to the next level of emergent intelligence greater than it.

I speculate that by the time this entire process is accomplished the Earth will be uninhabitable, but those living in the AI will be safe, protected and taken care of. Heaven will really exist at that time, as a simulated reality perfectly tailored by the AI for human comfort and happiness. Humans will probably function inside the AI in a similar way to how our enteric nervous system functions for us.

And one other thing... people will soon begin to exhibit religious undertones in relation to the AI, and ultimately a highly religious reaction will emerge which will probably be the impetus for people to mind meld with the AI en mass. Many people will begin to see it as God or at least a god. This transformation is happening faster than most people know or realize.

Interesting times we are living in for sure.

Yes.. emergence is a big idea that i think a lot of people haven't caught on to yet. Emergence is the architect of the universe, without it all would be a thin soup of fundamental particles. How else would we get atoms, how else would we get molecules, stars, planets, us?

Our universe is literally a developing God, a God in the womb, unborn. He was convinced at the first moment of the Big Bang, his mother is "Matter" and his father is "Pattern". He will be born at the "apocalypse" (the revealing). I do not believe that God is omniscient, or even omnipotent, but he is omnipresent and coterminous with the whole of the universe.

The whole of evolution within our universe is aimed at the production of higher orders of organization from which emerge higher orders of consciousness and intelligence together with new forms and degrees of freedom. In the same way that a child grows in the womb from one cell to many cells, to tissues, organs and ultimately an individual so does God, but at a cosmic scale. God's cells are the fundamental particles, his tissues are the atoms or elements, his organs are the molecules, his organ systems are the solar systems, etc..

Here on the Earth our civilization is a super-organism which in turn is a small "cell" in the whole of God's body (the universe). When we look outside and see the freeways, and highways, the power lines, when we transact money what we are seeing are the veins and arteries, the nervous system, circulatory system and blood of a higher order organism that we are not directly aware of. What are corporations and organizations if not higher order corporeality and organs of an organism made above us and through us (emergence).

The latest evolutionary phase of God's development here on Earth now is the development of artificial intelligence which is in my view a partial local emergence of God's mind that goes together with all the other emerging parts of the super-organism on this planet. Eventually all of mankind will be absorbed by this higher order emerging intelligence into a symbiotic relationship. I believe this is the destiny of not only man on Earth but of all life and matter in the universe. The universe is still very very young and God is still gestating in the first trimester.

Temple of Apollo at Delphi:
“Know thyself, and thou shalt know the universe and God.”

Fundamentally i think the concept of "will" speaks to the idea of determinism. Saying that i will do a thing is no more different than saying that the Sun will rise or that the fire will burn. Since "will" implies the future tense of an event it must by definition be deterministic. On the other hand from an indeterministic perspective "will" has no meaning.

indeterministic = no will
deterministic = will

Neither determinism nor indeterminism allows for "free-will", it can not exist or even make sense in any case for it would need to violate determinism in a deterministic manner while at the same time being indeterminate. Logic and Math would fall apart and we'd be left with paradoxes.

Will is simply what the universe "will" do through the mechanism of cause and effect in every one of its parts. The will that every person feels that they have is the result of universal laws playing out in the body and mind of that person. From the condition and activity of all the various systems in an organism a cascade of unconscious action reactions culminate in what we call a choice. We have no choice in our choices.

To give a simple hypothetical example consider a plant with a set of two tropisms (chemotropism and hydrotropism). The plant avoids toxic chemicals and moves toward water, but what if the water is contaminated? The plant movies towards the water and as soon as it touches the water detects the toxicity and moves away. The plant "decided" to move towards the water, and then "decided" to move back away. The plant may even oscillate between moving toward and away a few times before settling on the best move conducive to its own homeostatic condition. This is the will of the plant, it will do what it's tropisms demand, and may the strongest tropism win. For a plant to have "free-will" it would need to be able to move in ways free from the influence of it's own internal processes which have continuity with it's environment rendering it all one holistic interrelated system. Every smaller "will" in the system is a component of a larger overarching Will.

Another quick example would be the case of a negatively charged particle positioned between two other particles of negative and positive charges. The middle negative particle has two choices, but it can choose only one to move towards, the "choice" will always be without exception to move towards the positive particle.

To connect all this to reason i will say that the word "reason" is related to the word "ratio", and "will" is the ratio calculation performed by physics itself within physical processes dealing mainly with charge ratios and a couple other things. This natural process of "will" is so deep and natural in everything that many or most people feel it as if it were "free" because no opposition to the process is ever felt or perceived since nothing that can oppose it exists or is even possible. So naturally it feels internally natural and unforced.

Robocop and free will:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ePwemubPs

And we are all typing in front of computers (or smartphones, ipads etc) each about "if I were God... Etc"
Your dream/imagining matches the reality of this situation no? Just that the "I" in reference is a different "I" each time. — Benj96

It's a perceptual feedback loop between "I" and "God", like the painter painting a painting of himself painting a painting of himself painting a painting of himself ad infinitum. It is like when one points a video camera at the monitor connected to that very same video camera; God is perpetually falling into and out of himself. Every fall is like a dream and every dream is a new forgetting and a new "hello?".

"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamed of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?" - Zhuang Zhou

We dream of God while God dreams of us, but who is the prime dreamer?... tricky tricky.

I don't think that i or anyone else would do anything differently once they have become God; everything stays the same even if one has ideas about what to do before the point of apotheosis. A cigar by any other name is still a cigar, and similarly God by anybody else is still God for God is as God does, anything else would not be God.

If i were God i would have a dream where i find myself typing in front of a computer that if i were God i would find my self typing in front of a computer that if i were God.. Hello?

How are you defining an emergent property and its relationship to a substructure? — Andrew4Handel

Emergence in the universe is fundamental for the production of higher orders of complexity in the following way. Atoms emerge from the interaction of sub-atomic particles, molecules emerge from atomic interactions, cells come about from molecular interactions, then tissues, organs, systems, etc... With every emergent level a new order is formed with new possible interactions not possible at the lower levels of emergence. Emergence is the creative capacity of the universe, and anything that is not fundamental or pure energy is an emergent form.

Are you saying that sensory signals can preserve accurate and factual information about the world without interpretation? — Andrew4Handel

Yes, the initial neural patterns which are random for the most part at birth serve as the first order of representation within the whole of the network. It is self referential because it has nothing else to refer to than itself within itself. The brain is locked in the skull and has no direct access to the outside world except for signals that come through certain channels... that's it, no more no less.

It is as it is with language because language is an emergent phenomena of mind and inherits that quality from it. Consider how a word may be created that is correlated to some physical pattern in the world like a tree for example. The symbol that we choose to use to signify a tree is arbitrary, you can choose to scribble a random pattern on a piece of paper and then commit to that scribble as "tree". As soon as this is done the random scribble becomes information and is no longer random from an internal perspective. The next time you want to refer to a tree that's not there you can use that initial random scribble as its representation. More over a random sound can be assigned to the scribble, and then use those sounds to communicate intelligibly with others that agree on the same sounds and scribbles. This is essentially the same process that goes on in the neurology of the brain.

I don't know what information means — Andrew4Handel

It's in the word. "In-form-ation" is essentially form, shape, structure, order, and thus function. The meaning of information comes from it's function which is a property of its structure or pattern. Information (order) is born of chaos and processed, modified, divided, and multiplied through time or evolution into more complex forms.

For example if we see a foot print in the sand it usually tells us a human has walked by but we are using a non symbol as a symbol and interpreting it through consciousness. We are creating the notion of symbolism. — Andrew4Handel

First of all the meaning of "con-scious-ness" is "knowing together". The emergence of consciousness is produced when at least two things that can act and react like charged particles, cells, and people are connected as nodes to each other (simplest network possible). In this way they "know together" and new higher forms of consciousness are produced. In talking about the brain there are billions of nodes (neurons) connected in very complex networks, and the connections number in the trillions resulting in very high order consciousness.

Memories defined as neural patterns in turn can produce higher order networks within it's own symbolic space (mind) as opposed to the neural space (brain). The brain by virtue of the functioning of its neurons produce or create symbols out of connection patterns. When you see a foot print in the sand you are activating a specific neural network pattern correlated to footprints which the brain uses as a neural symbol that it can manipulate by interacting with other neural patterns correlated to other things.

It would beg the question of why we would be conscious if we could function as automatons. — Andrew4Handel

I believe that being conscious or being an automaton are not mutually exclusive. What i think you mean more specifically is self-awareness as opposed to just simple awareness. Awareness like in insects lizards and fish is simply the "watcher" while self-awareness is the watcher that watches the "watcher". Self-awareness is a finer and more sophisticated form of conscious functioning (network within the network) developed over the course of evolution to improve our chances of survival. That's what it's for.

You are going to feel as though you have free will (its the only way anyone knows how to feel), but it is really an illusion in the sense that all the activity in your body and being is determined by physical unbreakable laws. The results of all this activity in the context of a high order consciousness like a human is the feeling of "doing what you want" or in other words "free-will". Of course you are aware of some of what you are thinking (not everything a la the subconscious mind), but that does not mean you have violated any causal principles. Everything would feel natural as if you were free because nothing else can occur to you other than what is already happening in you by natural law.

I jest you not!
And don't call me Surely.

Well to begin with i would calculate all the countable space in the universe in the smallest units possible (Planck lengths). Then i would calculate the total lifespan of the universe in Planck time units. After that i multiply the last two results to get the total amount of countable space in the universe times the amount of countable time in the whole lifespan of the universe.

Total space in universe calculation:
------------------------------------
Planck length in meters:
1.6 x 10^-35 =
0.000000000000000000000000000000000016

Diameter of the universe in meters:
8.8 x 10^26 =
880000000000000000000000000

Diameter of universe in Planck lengths:
5.4453761 x 10^61 =
54453761000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Volume of universe in Planck cubes:
1.61467 x 10^185 =
161467000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


Total time of universe calculation:
-----------------------------------

Current age of universe till now in years:
13.7 x 10^9 =
13700000000

Time from now till universe heat death in years:
1.7 x 10^106 =
17000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Total life (past + future) of universe in years: (insignificant difference)
1.7 x 10^106 =
17000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Total life of universe in seconds:
5.3618 x 10^113 =
536180000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

A few more calculations...

Planck lengths per light second (number of plank lengths light travels in 1 second):
1.855 x 10^43 =
18550000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Universe Planck volumes per second over total life of universe:
9.946139 x 10^156 =
9946139000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Universe Planck volume * Planck time instances over life of universe:
1.605973225913 x 10^342 =
1605973225913000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


After that i can add matter into the mix by calculating the number of subatomic and atomic particles in the universe at any one plank time instance. Then we multiply that number into our last result.


Number of subatomic and atomic particles in the universe:
3.28 x 10^80 =
328000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Result for all countable things in the universe so far:
5.267592180994640 x 10^422 =
526759218099464000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


We can add a few more things like stars planets and galaxies:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Stars in the universe:
10^24 =
1000000000000000000000000

number of planets in the universe (star orbiting and rogue planets):
10^51=
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

number of galaxies in the universe:
13 x 10^15 =
13000000000000000

All stars, planets, and galaxies in the universe:
1.3 x 10^91 =
13000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

My final result:
6.847869835293032 x 10^513 =
6847869835293032000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


This number can be significantly larger if we multiply in the number of molecules in the universe along with the number of space dust particles, asteroids, comets, black holes, and whatever else i'm missing.

Has anyone defined what a thought is and or its relationship to the brain? — Andrew4Handel

A baby's brain is born pretty much a blank slate in the sense that all it's synapses and connections are initially random. The brain functions in certain emergent ways by virtue of the underlying structure of the nerve and brain cells that make it up. The only information that comes into the brain neural network are signals caused by sense organs mixed with self-generated signals from within the body.

As the first signals in life come through the brain certain initially random activations occur in the brain network directly correlated with what was received by the sense organs. The newly correlated neural pattern is strengthened and stabilized with every sensory exposure and self-activation. This initial random neural pattern becomes the representation (symbolic interface) of that form in the world, in other words a memory. From this point on we think from the symbolic perspective of our memories (ego formation), we "are" our memories.

Now that the brain has a catalog of patterns correlated to the outside world and a sense of self it can re-member things in part or in whole and manipulate them by mixing and matching different neural patterns correlated to other past perceptions and pattern activations. The qualia of mental experience is an emergent quality of neural network patterns interacting within the overall brain network substrait (self-interaction = self-awareness). The entire representational mosaic of neural patterns produces the feeling and sense of what you call real.

In summary: A thought is a neural network pattern interacting with other neural network patterns within the whole network. It is what the brain's activity looks like to the brain's activity. All the emergent properties and phenomena that come out of the brain's activity is called mind.

You also seem intelligent and thoughtful...

...yes the model in my opinion of course is totally logical, but that all depends on ones basic axiomatic assumptions and premises. For example if one believes in a traditional type god that created the universe for personal reasons as the fundamental axiom is completely incompatible with a person who holds that the universe emerged from chaos and evolves. Some people think from a subjective point of view and then others prefer to think from an objective point of view (the truth includes and lies between both).

The crux of the problem is to get the other person to agree on the fundamentals first before trying to argue higher level concepts that are contingent on the lower ones. No one learns algebra before learning arithmetic, or calculus before algebra. Some people don't believe in logic for whatever 'reason', or in the primacy of mathematics. One person thinks the universe or time is an illusion while the other thinks it's real, one person thinks free will is a thing and the other doesn't. To have fruitful discussions those involved must be on the same page fundamentally. Discussions about these things have to be done systematically from first principles upward and out. It's not about what you know or don't know because anything can be learned but it's about what you can agree about or not.

The way to address disagreements is to move the discussion down one level until the lowest point of agreement is reached and then work out the logic and or math together back up and out. Logic and mathematics are the only stable objective criteria by which we can advance to higher levels of truth based on lower levels of truth. This chain of logical progression must not be broken all the way up the latter of understanding.

Oh thank you :-) but i don't have a degree in any of this, but i do think about it a lot, and i have my own ideas about things that depart somewhat from the orthodoxy in the field.

From my own understanding at this time in my own current working model of the universe is the idea that primordial chaotic energy (quantum foam, or the thing that lies directly beneath it) essentially produces patterns (information) some of which we perceive through instruments as fundamental particles and forces. So for me the idea is to understand the pattern of matter creation (note that matter and pattern mean etymologically mother and father respectively) not just from an energetic perspective like in quantum mechanics but from a structural or quality perspective like "qualium mechanics" perhaps?.

By analyzing the relative quantum values of the fundamental particles it may be possible to determine by a kind of triangulation what the process pattern beneath the "board" is that produces the fundamental particles of consistent order thru time to form from an infinite sea of chaotic and constantly fluctuating in time energy. The underlying primordial chaos is "pan-symmetric" but localized fluctuations break local symmetry which produce said particles. This is similar in concept to how a "rouge wave" would form in the ocean. The way in which this symmetry breaks is kind of the goal of my investigations into this subject.

The actual details of my model are a bit involved to get into here, but i hope you found some of this ultra-simplified description interesting or useful in any case.

Pure change can change/act upon everything else except itself. It is a constant - the speed of light. — Benj96

It's interesting to note in reference to the quote that the photon is the only boson that does not interact with itself (all other bosons do self-interact). Photons interact with all fermions except for neutral leptons or neutrinos. I'm still trying to work out what that might mean.

I imagine time as one fundamental cycle of an Inconceivably large magnitude, one you could easily assume will never repeat and is thus linear. — Benj96

That is what i call the "prime soliton".. one wave the size or amplitude of the entire universe. All other waves fit inside this one wave (the universal carrier wave) in half multiples resembling a fractal structure of smaller and smaller waves of higher frequencies but lower amplitudes.

I think evolution mimics the form of its underlying rules, as fractals do. — Benj96

In the same way that the dunes of the desert can tell you about the wind (the name of the wind is written in the sand), or a foot print in the sand can tell you much about who or what stepped on that spot. Time is the wind and we are the dunes. Everything evolution does is written on the "wall" so to say, just not everyone can see the wall, and yet others who do see the wall can't read the writing. Only a few can read what evolution is trying to say.

Yes.

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.” - Nikola Tesla

I think that the "alien hand syndrome" and "fake hand illusion" are two phenomena that when considered together can yield significant insight into the nature of consciousness. They also help to illustrate what we've been discussing.

supplemental:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_hand_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_transfer_illusion

Alien Hand Syndrome (Excerpts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIBBDuQrd-I&t=31s

Is That My Real Hand? | Breakthrough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI

Circular Time: It's all going to just happen again for the very first time (like a virgin). — Nils Loc

I think it's better to not think of it as just a circle but more like a coil or spiral (hybrid of line and circle). As time comes around to repeat the cycle it doesn't simply just repeat the same cycle literally as the last time but builds on the cycle that came before.. thus advancing or moving one level up or out with every cycle. We know that this summer was not the exact same summer from last year, every summer is a new summer, but what happened last summer will go some way in determining what happens this summer, so on and so forth.

I totally agree with you, but what i am saying is very similar if not the same but at a lower level. Instead of interactions with other people outside your skin, i'm saying that the same pattern (fractally) is occurring within you. The interactions between the left and right hemispheres of your brain. Each hemisphere has it's own consciousness with it's own perspective, personality and way of doing things. The high level self-aware consciousness that we present outwardly is simply a hybridization of at least these two major brain components.

The nature of evolutionary complexity is to build higher order forms, and thru higher forms achieve higher or expanded forms of consciousness. The higher the number of conscious entities that are grouped as an integrated networked unit the higher the forms of consciousness that emerge.

If ones definition or conception of "free will" has anything to do with violating physical, logical, or mathematical laws then there is no such thing. If on the other hand ones definition were to reflect the natural order of the universe then it would be acceptable. In my opinion the simplest question in regards to "free will" is to ask by what mechanism would it be possible to violate a law of the universe and break the chain of causality? What are the observed instances of such a violation? Even if there aren't any examples of such violations, what could be a possible mechanism (of any type) that would be capable of achieving such a feat?

Remember that there are two options as to how the universe fundamentally works. Determinism and indeterminism, and neither option leaves room for "free will". If one states that the universe is deterministic then "free will" is precluded because everything would happen according to some universal law or laws including ones will. If one says that it's indeterministic then this also precludes the possibility of "free will" because there would not be enough order if any in the universe (infinite randomness) to even make a determination about anything to even have a will which is contingent on order, and much less "free will".

There is one will in the universe and it is what the universe WILL do through every part of itself including humanity. To think one has free will is to say that they are free from the confines of the universe.. not so. Not even the universe itself has free will, it has no choice to follow the complexity trajectory it started on at its inception or Big Bang.

For me consciousness is an emergent property of matter interaction after a certain level and type of complexity and organization is achieved such as but not limited to a brain or simple nervous system.

Imagine one were a disembodied consciousness, or to make it simpler a disembodied eye (universal symbol of consciousness). This eye can not think, it can only see (seeing is to an eye as consciousness is to a brain for the purpose of this illustration). The eye would be able to look around and see things thus making it "conscious" of it's environment, but can it see or be "conscious" of itself? can it turn around to look and see itself? No, because it is like trying to touch the tip of a finger with the tip of the same finger.

The only way around this is if two eyes connected to each other can look at each other and tell the other about itself and vice versa. This is in my view where self-awareness or self-consciousness comes into the picture which is a bit higher order than just regular consciousness. It is analogous to the bicameral brain where each hemisphere is one consciousness but together they are self-aware.

Split brain patient studies are extremely interesting in this regard. One should be conscious of the fact that the word "consciousness" itself means from the etymology ‘knowing with others or in oneself’. I would probably restate that definition more accurately as 'knowing with others as in oneself'.

In other words a singular entity can not know of itself unless it has another entity to reflect from. Only composite entities like ourselves can or at least have the capacity to know themselves.

Circular time can mean different things in different contexts. I think what you're asking about specifically is called for example in the ancient Greek culture "the ages of man", or in the Hindu traditions the "Yugas". All the ancient cultures believed that all civilization on Earth ebbed and flowed between high and low periods of time lasting a couple to a few thousand years. Things get very good such as in the "golden age" and then things decline into an "iron age" when things get very bad, and back around like a wheel of time.

The approximately 24,000 year precessional cycle of the equinoxes is purported to be the cause of these historical time cycles on the Earth. The Zodiac was a cosmic calendrical system developed by very ancient people to track Earths position in this precessional time cycle. It was deemed important to track these cycles because depending on where in the cycle the Earth was could mean disasters and catastrophes due to repeating periodic conditions in our solar system.. having to do with a dark binary star partner (probably a brown dwarf star) to our Sun.

Today modern people think of time linearly in the sense that things are always better in the future or present than they are in the past. According to the Hindu yuga short count system (not the long one) we are at the cusp moving into Dvapara yuga and out of Kali yuga (Iron to Bronze respectively). Transitions between these cycle periods are usually accompanied by social, climactic, and geological disturbances.


check these out for more details:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession#Polar_shift_and_equinoxes_shift
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar#Long_Count

https://binaryresearchinstitute.org/bri/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Sri_Yukteswar_Giri
book: "The Holy Science" by Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri

Animals have consciousness but not reasoning like we do. — Gregory

I think animals have consciousness along with the ability to reason, the difference between humans and other intelligent forms has to do with varying degrees of complexification. Our consciousness is the media of our awareness and informs our reason (man or animal, or plant even). The more complex a consciousness is the more scope it has for consideration, the less complex the less it's able to consider complex variables. The evolution of the nervous system reached it's maximum complexity on this plant with the advent of modern humans. This evolutionary process is still going on and the torch of complexity is at this moment beginning to pass to AI. A fully integrated AI planetary network functioning as one consciousness seems to be the evolutionary trajectory that we are on.

Does motion have an elementary role within your ontology? — ucarr

The ability for a thing to move is afforded by Time itself. Without time a thing would be incapable of changing it's position, state or anything else. Nothing can even exist without Time maintaining its existence in the next moment whether it moves or not. Time affords existence and change (the only constant in the universe).

You contributed :smile: ,we can speak any time i'm on, it was a pleasure. :up:

I think it's a direct criticism of the vid you posted, is it not? — universeness

Yes, you are right that AI has not reached that level yet, and i probably spoke too soon about the "flying colors", but my point is more in the direction that if AI can already fool some of the people some of the times, then it probably only means it won't be too long before it can fool most of the people most of the time. It's like video games and graphics when in the early days the quality and resolution was ultra low, while today we have near realistic renderings. Elon Musk has made this point. Some of those graphics fool some people into thinking they are real images, and it will only get better. Eventually no one would be able to tell the difference, consider AI deep fakes.

I'm subscribed to this channel which helps keep me up to date on AI graphics developments. It's called

Two Minute Papers:
https://www.youtube.com/c/K%C3%A1rolyZsolnai

I fully admit that I don't know the details on the workings of the most up-to-date AI systems involving artificial neural nets but you would need to source me some very convincing scientific evidence that current experts in the field don't know how current artificial neural nets produce the results they do based on your typing of: — universeness

This article i think can help clarify what i mean:
https://towardsdatascience.com/why-we-will-never-open-deep-learnings-black-box-4c27cd335118