Those who ignore the lessons of history (past times) may well be doomed to repeat them! But as you suggest 'You reap what you sow.'

Those who try to survive in the middle ground between two such historically implacable enemies, are either very brave or very foolish.

The middle is usually the most ignored by both sides. — Benj96

Neutrality is not as threatening as the contrasting side as it embodies a partiality of agreement whilst the opposite is the greatest threat. My arms shall remain un-pulled. — Benj96

Only complete fools ignore the middle ground. They can often tip the balance. If you don't feel the pull from either side, then I predict you soon will, if you remain positioned as you are. No mans land is a dangerous place to wander or try to exist in.

My flag is planted firmly in the middle of the democracy-tyranny spectrum — Benj96

Good place to get both arms ripped off. One arm to each side! :gasp:
I will try my best to stop the other side from forcing you over to them but holding on to your arm from my side too strongly might mean I am left with your disembodied arm only. Should I just let go and watch you be grabbed by the other side?

So, sounds like you have to pick your side, plant your flag and fight for your cause. Agree? or do you see a less binary more nuanced range of choices?

Yipes I am late to a very important date- sorry I got to run. — Athena

Said the white rabbit, staring at its big watch! :rofl:

Did we really believe George Washington cut down a cherry tree and when his father asked about the tree did he literally say "I can not tell a lie. I cut down the cherry tree." or is that a story told to make a point about the importance of being honest? — Athena

Do we really believe that an apple fell and hit the head of Newton and then he repurposed the word gravitas into a crucial shift of meaning of the word gravity. George might have cut down that cherry tree and the story might be true, it's at least credible but Noah's ark remains impossible. This is an important difference imo.

I want to appeal to your right brain, not just your left brain. — Athena

Your appeal permeates me(Rcomplex), myself(limbic system) and I (Cerebral cortex). Left and right can work in harmony and unison when they find common cause.

George Washington cutting down the cherry tree and Abe Lincoln walking a mile to give someone a penny, are examples of the American mythology that was transmitted through public education. Stories of Ben Franklin and Danial Boon and others were part of that mythology. Because this mythology was transmitted by grade schools it united us. We stopped transmitting that mythology and we are now very divided. — Athena

I think all those plausible stories of folklore are alive and kicking in the American Psyche but some do have to diminish to make room for depictions such as 'to kill a mocking bird,' 'The grapes of wrath,' 'Inherit the wind (the scopes trial), 'Watergate,' 'The Kennedy assassination,' and my own musings which sees Donald Trump looking in a mirror and the reflection is Vladimir Putin which morphs into Xi Jinping which morphs into Kim Jong-un which morphs into Elon Musk etc, etc. Yeah, I know I need a chill pill! :flower:

h boy, that is a challenging question! :cheer: :grin: One difference is Athena's temple still stands and was restored but the statues that should be in it are in Briton. — Athena

I hear that more effort is being made to return the Elgin marbles from the UK so, you never know what else may be returned from whence it came, soon enough.

From Wiki:
Athena or Athene, often given the epithet Pallas, is an ancient Greek goddess associated with wisdom, warfare, and handicraft, who was later syncretized with the Roman goddess Minerva. Athena was regarded as the patron and protectress of various cities across Greece, particularly the city of Athens, from which she most likely received her name. The Parthenon on the Acropolis of Athens is dedicated to her. Her major symbols include owls, olive trees, snakes, and the Gorgoneion. In art, she is generally depicted wearing a helmet and holding a spear.

Perhaps we could put a statue of Athena beside one of Jane Goodall, Carl Sagan et al and perhaps have a statue of some homeless folks and some other needy folks sitting under such statues in all sorts of well thought out relevant poses. We need new messages! But I agree we should not abandon some useful ancient ones.

I think as a matter of principle we need to respect property rights. This is another subject and if you want to debate it let us start a thread for that. — Athena

How about 'What property do you need? and how private do you need your property to be?' as a thread title? I leave it to you to relate such effectively to one of the philosophy categories listed on TPF.
I would like to hear about them BAMS! who stole from you and how that affected you.

He also said mythology is about teaching the young how to be adult members of the group. — Athena

I understand, but I think we can achieve the same goal through the use of truth, and I think the results will be better than the results of using mythology. We can continue to story tell but we don't need to rely so heavily on numinous or supernatural suggestions. We can simply extrapolate and stretch real science.
Star trek proposes a lot of future tech which is not impossible. The flip style mobile phone was so like the communicator posited in Star Trek. Fantasy characters like Ironman are not impossible. An omnigod is impossible. Getting two of every species onto an 'ark,' is impossible.

When we began education for technology we destroyed our national heroes and the culture that united us and made our liberty possible. I think that is a big mistake. — Athena

Give me an example of a 'destroyed national hero,' and 'a destroyed cultural aspect that united us and made our liberty possible,' that would exemplify your point here.

I think we should do all our power to restore her temple with all the statues returned and put in their places. This is far more important to me than rebuilding the Jewish temple. — Athena

That's a step way too far for me Athena. How would that be different to calling for a new temple containing statues to a modern manifestation of the fabled Hercules or biblical Samson in the guise of The Hulk? I also have no attraction towards rebuilding Solomon's temple. If I had the power and democratic permission of the majority of stakeholders, I would convert the dome of the rock mosque, Westminster abbey, St Paul's Cathedral, The Vatican, Buckingham palace and every other church, chapel, kingdom hall, Hindu/Buddhist temple, into 'people property.' Units that can be used by the hungry, the homeless etc. The theists, theosophists, royalists can still run them as they do now, but they would not own them, and the main function of such places, would have to demonstrably be, the physical support of those in desperate need. If a homeless person is on the streets, then the local theists/theosophists, would have to explain why they are not helping that person.

Athena is portrayed as our Statue of Liberty holding a torch and a book, symbolizing the Enlightenment. She also stood in courts as the Lady of Justice and she holds scales for the balance of justice. — Athena

So, such fabled characters are presently, still represented in American culture, fine. So, let's make the path you are tracing here, from the ancient gods and goddesses to theism, as it manifests today. A reason to insist that such historicity, gives all theist groups/organisations and all of the associated current wealth and access/ownership of property, a legislated responsibility, to directly aid the worlds needy and suffering humans, much much more, than they do at the moment. Their main purpose must be to help alleviate all human suffering and need.
They must use the majority of their wealth and assets to achieve this, or else, the wealth and assets of a particular organisation, such as the Roman Catholic Vatican City can be seized and turned into funds to help the worlds poor and needy humans.

I ask you to consider reading the books and seeing if they change your perspective. — Athena

I am sorry I cant offer to do that, as I have such a long list of books I want to not just read, but fully understand, and I don't have the lifespan, to add your recommendations to my currently way overburdened list.

We all have to go to Hades from time to time to get a sense of meaning. People who do not go to Hades are totally frivolous and I think that is a waste of our lives. But, we should never go to Hades without the help of the gods and goddesses because it is so easy to get lost in Hades. That is to experience depression or even more serious forms of mental dis ease such as psychosis — Athena

I agree with you here, but I don't think we ever have to 'go to hades,' as I think it regularly comes to visit us, whether we are ready to face it or not.

Being totally opposed to the gods and goddesses is very Christian and very atheistic and lacking in a philosophical perspective. — Athena

I think our detailed approach will continue to differ and I suspect you would fight against many of the details of my suggestions about what legislated responsibility, I would lay at the door of all current theistic/theosophist/royalist organisations, along with the serious actions, I would take against them, if they did not comply with the responsibilities I would impose on them.

I suspect neither of us will be allowed to fully reboot the world and have human society function in the way you or I would make it function. BUT, I also think that we would be able to find a great deal of common cause between us and we both scream from the same humanist platform. I am probably more firmly in the 'totally secular/irreligious camp,' compared to yourself.
I would only favour mythology which was not 'scientifically impossible.'

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he (or I assume she) lay down his (or I assume her or even somewhere in between.) life for his/her/hesh friends.

LOL, I am a registered organ donor, but for that to work, one must die in the hospital and that is not something we can always arrange. Hit me with a truck and make my brain dead and get me to the hospital while my blood is still circulating so my organs can live on in other people. Or I consider my mitochondria that has given me life and dying someplace where the birds and other creatures might consume my mitochondria and give it life. — Athena

What more can one ask for? Individual human morality can invoke as high a standard as anything suggested in the bible.

I struggled with superstitious fears when I was young and this became an extremely serious part of my life when I was in my early 30's. — Athena

I am very glad I decided those superstitious ideas were false. — Athena

:clap: You smashed it, you saw through the bullshit, you denied the demons they tried to convince you existed and you called their bluff. Satan, God, Jinn, Demons, Angels, Hell, are all powerless fantasies.
I challenge all of them, to affect me. I exist! so I am much more powerful than any of them. Only objects in the material/physical universe can affect me.

Satanism became very popular and some years later, my daughter had a friend who went to prison with another friend for their satanic killing of one of the girls. — Athena

The evil that people are capable of is terrifying. The human mind can become very sick indeed, we need to find better preventions and cures, as praying just does not work.

I think it is sad that we all do not have a sense of oneness with the universe. — Athena

There is no question that you, me and every other person is part of the universe. It is my 'universeness.' Most of what you are made of is a result of supernova explosions. The death of stars meant that you could become.
How spectacular is that? I am made of starstuff not godstuff! Yeehaaaaa!

Bottom line, my thinking is only as good as yours. — Athena

Bottom line for me when it comes to you Athena is that YOU DO GOOD!
You are reasoning and tracing a path from historical theism, to a democratic humanist imperative.
I am fine with the path you are tracing and the characters you invoke, because, you regularly confirm, that you are not suggesting the gods of the ancients were real. You describe them, as exactly what they were used for, imitation/virtual manifestation/simulation/emulation of observed aspects of humanity and human behaviour and human intrigue.
The only difference between us, in the path you trace, is that I think, that the 'benevolent' consequences of the use of god characterisations, is, in the final analysis, outweighed by the 'pernicious' consequences.
But any small divergence we have in the details of our interpretations of the effects and consequences of historical and current theism, pales into insignificance, when I know that what you DO to help other people, makes me so, so grateful that folks like you exist and have always existed in every generation. May it always be so!

We are 100% responsible for what will be. — Athena

:clap: We can no longer afford to scapegoat nonexistent gods.

We have gone from Socrates' mandate to know ourselves as individuals, to knowing ourselves as a species. — Athena

:clap: I don't need the fake hope of fictitious god's to help me in my life, I just need good people like yourself to exist.

You are engaging in what fundamentalist theism is most afraid of, reason and rationale, and in doing so, you add to my hope for the future of our species.
Don't doubt or question, keep their faith! Believe and be saved (after you die) or be dammed eternally!
That's the theist 'trump' card! You have to sit in the dark, alone, knowing that one day you must die, and you must tackle your own primal fears and your overwhelming, inherent, survival instinct, against that currently inevitable fate. This makes many folks engage in Pascals wager.
No atheist can guarantee you the peace and unawareness of oblivion. They can only use evidence such as all of time before you were born. You were aware of no existence before you were born so why would you be aware of time passing after you die?
So, which path will you choose?

For me, I truly believe that all human lives are formed from that which is OF THE UNIVERSE.
Gods have and still have no existents at all.
We are of the universe, not in the panpsychist sense, nor did the universe have any intent to create YOU, or ME as in the person of you or me.
YOU are a 'happenstance' but WE were always potential happenstances, as we did come to be.
Our lives are unique, we will disassemble and become 'spare parts' again.
BUT, In this sense, we are all part of each other.
I find great personal contentment in that. My life has purpose, meaning, value and a spectacular sensation of wonderment. I want to contribute to secular, humanist, socialist, democratic progress in everyway I can, as long as I live.
That is the legacy I want, but my revered remembrance, is not a pre-requisite, of my want for such a legacy.
I see nothing in theism that offers me more. Science and transhumanism are the only avenue that could offer me more options, than I have now. Prayer, is forlorn bullshit by comparison, in my opinion.
As Lawrence Krauss once stated, alongside Richard Dawkins when debating with theists.
'If you are choking, I can either perform the Heimlich manoeuvre on you ,or I can pray for you, which would you prefer?'

VR/AR/Future Holotech might mean we can each experience the world as we would personally make it, quite soon. Maybe that will be better than the good feelings and fantasies experienced under substance abuse. Perhaps it will even be cathartic for many, perhaps it will also confirm, that the REAL world is the only one that can offer each person REAL experiences that the best and most convincing holotech never will.
Humans WILL travel every possible path. Such is our nature.
We live in very exciting times, perhaps it has been ever thus for every human generation. Such is the nature of relativity.

Do Baptists believe in demons and angels and how much is Satan a part of the religion? — Athena

The Christian 'sects' cannot even decide if they believe in monotheism or not.
An angel or a demon or even an Islamic jinn are not humans, so what are they?
Is Satan a lesser god? are angels, demons, jinn's etc lesser gods compared to humans?
If so, then Christianity's monotheistic claims are open to question, are they not?
Perhaps they could claim there is a 'godhead'/leader/originator but, according to Christians, it seems to require not only deference to it but also to its other supernatural creations such as angels!

That's ok, it's easily explained. The matrix is a series of sci-fi movies, starring Keanu Reeves. You could easily get a synopsis of the plot from a wee google search, if you have never watched them.
Yes! VR/AR is virtual reality/augmented reality. VR is a total simulation. AR uses the real world as the background and augments your experience by adding virtual characters and events.
If you have never experienced a good quality VR headset experience, I would highly recommend it.
It really can completely fool your senses, your brain can have real difficulty not reacting to what you are experiencing, as if it was really happening. VR/AR is still in it's infancy but it's possibilities are very powerful indeed. Perhaps in the future, we may achieve holodeck tech such as:

Do you realize the philosophy of that time, the conviction of reason making life better, triggered the Awakening. The Awakening is the birth of Evangelical Christianity. It is theologians defense of religious doctrine and I mention this because I think that is one of the barriers to fully manifesting the New Age that needs to be corrected — Athena

Every silver lining has its cloud!

BUT!

We can not get rid of religious notions that prevent progress without raising awareness of what reason has to do with a high morality and democracy. — Athena

If reason, rationality, exemplification and even demonstration, fails, after many attempts, and we are (I hope) barred, from forcing an individual to support all efforts to create a progressive, humanist, secular, global, society which is benevolent to all species and all universal objects that come into the sphere of influence of the human race. Then I think the best we can offer the dissenters(and the criminal or nefarious), is regular or perhaps even permanent (matrix style) existence in a VR/AR world where they can experience the 'rapture,' of their choice, until they die.

Amazon

You might also watch:

I would stop drinking that particular single malt that was causing me to see characters from fables.
BUT, if it was real, then I would tell it to do it's f****** job and stop trying to pass it's chores onto me!

We have been in transition ever since we left the wilds.
Humans are far more curious than cats. We want to know where every path leads., so, after a few thousand years of trying to, we have not got there yet but we will.
I have a very simplistic overview of human beings. I see two main types.
1. Those who care as much/more about that which exists outside of themselves as they do about themselves or they can be convinced to.
2. Those who only care about their own lives and those they love.

When we do unite and organise and push for change, it works very well and progress is made.
It's true that this is often short lived, corrupted and even reversed at times but overall, we are progressing. I am in the Pinker camp with:

Steven Pinker urges us to step back from the gory headlines and prophecies of doom, which play to our psychological biases. Instead, follow the data: In 75 jaw-dropping graphs, Pinker shows that life, health, prosperity, safety, peace, knowledge, and happiness are on the rise, not just in the West, but worldwide. This progress is not the result of some cosmic force. It is a gift of the Enlightenment: the conviction that reason and science can enhance human flourishing.

I don't think he is suggesting we can all rest comfortably in the knowledge that the human race IS slowly breaking through into a better way of life for all humans and for all objects in the universe that come into our sphere of influence. But I really dont think our species is totally toxic, do you?
I really think we need to talk about all the positives and not always focus on 'the gory headlines.'

I think some people here have no knowledge of the rest of the world and how lucky they are to be in a democratic society where human rights are protected and the quality of life is high compared to some more conservative countries where might makes right, not the rule of law. — Athena

:clap: and if you look back into the history of the most democratic nations today, their 'upper class,' used to refer to the majority of people who lived there, as 'peasants' or 'serfs,' or even just 'scum.'

Every project team needs someone whose main contribution is to point out the flaws and say it'll never work. — Cuthbert

I have no problem with constructive criticism or even outright condemnation, when its deserved.
The nefarious do not react to deserved criticism in the honourable way you suggest. They normally react in true Donald Trump style. I agree with you when you are referring to people who have the best interests of all other people at heart.
I don't and won't defend those who moan about their existence as a human and who moan about how toxic all humans are, when their attitude and their behaviour day to day, is part of the problem. Antinatalists, misanthropes, fundamental theists etc, etc.

:up:
:up:
:up:
Thanks for the fresh air your words offer.
How many people now dead and gone, do we still reference and revere? (Legacy!)
How many good concepts such as democracy, fairness, justice, love, honesty etc are still the main drivers that we value most.
The three posts just made by the folks above, make me personally feel good. The fact that there are many other people, alive NOW, who DO NOT think life and living are pointless, makes me personally breathe a little more cleanly.
I would suggest that such people, are actually in the majority of the 8 billion mentioned.
Life offers the most incredible experiences!
If YOU think life is pointless, then either make room for those who don't, or get busy doing what you can to make better what it is in your power to make better. That would at least be a useful way to use up the life force you have.
If you choose to live your life as a curse, then you fast become USELESS! to yourself and to anyone else.
15,000 children die everyday for preventable reasons and our current stewardship of the Earth is pathetic. But, don't just shake your head, declare your species toxic and then permanently retract your head into your shell.
Do whatever you can do TO HELP CHANGE THINGS!!!!!
Misanthropes are like omnigods, Completely useless!
PICK A PURPOSE! (preferably one that's part of the solutions) GET INVOLVED!
Be all you can be @niki wonoto, leave a positive legacy. Make your entry in the story of the universe, a good one. Knowing you helped, can be one of the best feelings you will ever experience.

Human beings maybe the rarest of its kind, in a universe of 200 billion trillion stars.
8 billion, is a splash in the biggest ocean you can imagine!
Legacy, is what is built upon from each human generation.
The lifespan of the universe is vast indeed, so if it all feels pointless, then perhaps you need to look beyond your musings regarding your own mortality.
The greatest story ever told, is the story of the universe, and your part in it, is quite unique.
I don't understand those who think that's not enough? Especially when science may well offer us so many more options in the future, via transhumanism (lifespan extension).
The fact I wont be there to see a better future for the human race, does not mean I am justified in making no effort to help drive towards it, for those who will be here, when it happens.

It's the public communication that seems paramount to me.
I need to communicate what I want to the seller.
I can simply point to an apple by referencing my stored image of one. I can then hold up two fingers or take the two apples myself and hand them to the server or I can say 'two' or I can even communicate some indication of 'repeat' or 'again' after I point to an apple and want to indicate 'two.'
It seems to me that its the public communication that matters between me and the seller.

Would I need the concept of 'two,' if I had no-one to communicate with?
Does it matter what my private concept of two is when I have to communicate it to another?
My goal is to get two apples so my goal is to communicate that to the server in a way that achieves my goal and broadly satisfies/ is acceptable to the servers notion of two apples.
Whole numbers are either 1 or multiple replicates of 1. That matches my private concept of 'two.'
You might conceive 'two' to be its own amount, rather than as multiples of 1.
'Can I have two apples please?'
'Can I have an apple and then can I have another apple?'
Both would have the same result but the second one is just a bit less efficient.
If there are 'private' notions of what 'two' is, I don't think they matter as much as your personal ability to communicate 'two,' publicly.

I had an Uncle who I used to go drinking with. He would often go to the bar and order a small packet of peanuts. After he finished them he would go get another bag and then once more.
He did this routine on many occasions. So of course people would ask him, with some incredulity and annoyance, why he did not just 'f******' ask for three bags of peanuts? He would just say 'that's just me!'
Maybe he had some strange private notion of 'three,' which clashed with the public notion of three.

No. She is good at employing lay terminology, which helps interested amateurs like myself, gain a better understanding of physics/cosmology. I did buy Sean Carroll's recent book 'Space, Time and Motion,' and I intend to buy the other two books he intends to release, in this series of three, he is planning.
I don't know of any leading edge work that Sabine is or has been directly involved with.
I would certainly read book's by Sabine but I would need to add her to my long list.
I tend to go back to books and read them again to try to maintain and deepen my knowledge of their contents. I am currently trying to re-read Brain Green's 'Elegant Universe' and Carl Sagan's 'Demon Haunted World.' Too many great books, not enough time!

And doesn't the existence of dark matter sort of naturally follow in CCC as well? — busycuttingcrap

Well Roger's candidate for dark matter is the erebon.

You might enjoy Sabine's opinion of CCC given in the clip below. She mentions the erebon. It's only around 15 mins long.

Very interesting stuff! I will continue to try to understand all of the aspects of it, better than I do at the moment.

Roger continues to say that the cosmology community have yet to affectively respond to his evidence of the 6 'hawking points,' he has identified in the CMB. I think the Planck and WMAP data back up the existence of these 'hawking points.'

From https://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/node/36137:

Recent analysis of the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) by Roger, Daniel An, Krzysztof Meissner and Pawel Nurowski has revealed, both in the Planck and WMAP satellite data (at 99.98% confidence), a powerful signal that had never been noticed previously, namely numerous circular spots ∼8 times the diameter of the full moon. The brightest six (Figure 1) are ∼30 times the average CMB temperature variations seen at precisely the same locations in the Planck and WMAP data. These spots were overlooked previously owing to a belief that the very early exponentially expanding inflationary phase of standard cosmology should have obliterated any such features.

Well they certainly seem to be able to say nice things about the utterly nefarious god described in the christian old testament, but despite that, it is certainly true that many good theists have saved the lives of many people in the past, and many of them have given their lives to protect the innocent.
I do accept that the umbrella term should be good and bad people rather than good and bad theists or atheists. Both theism and atheism probably have an equal share of good and bad people.

:halo: Yeah, getting a bit like that for me to, in the past few years. Still, probably just as well, considering the old measuring stick, of when you are getting to where it takes you all night, to do what you used to do all night.

Clearly not. And if you do not have a problem, I can offer no solution. — unenlightened

I don't recall expecting you to. I tend to look to those who I think are capable of offering solutions, or who are capable of supporting the solutions myself and those like me would champion.
If I cant convince you to support me than I don't deserve your support, that's one of the main tenets of democratic socialism. Support is given from the people and only when the majority supports an action, should that action be taken. I believe in that approach, whenever it is feasible to employ it.

because good people do not do bad things, bad people have the advantage of being able to be good when it suits them and bad when it suits them more. — unenlightened

But I think that does not describe the real situation. Some people, that I would still consider good, will do bad to bad people. Often, as a 'taste of their own medicine,' or as revenge, if some of their heinous acts were against people you personally cared about. I understand if you would not consider a person who did bad to bad people, good. I would judge on a case by case basis.

But your problem is that you are trying to incorporate a moral framework into a crude scientism, and failing to do it, and then just inventing the frankly contradictory notion that good triumphs over evil on that material, self-interest level. Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. — unenlightened

But it's not a problem for me, other than I don't have you as a supporter of my position on these issues.
I can continue to try to convince you otherwise or I can look for support in others or I can do both.
Such is life!
For me, Science and the scientific method provide me with a foundation for my life values and strongly compliment my morality infused, socialist/humanist political viewpoints.

If you choose not to know how many good people are swept up in the actions of 'bad' countries, or what the governments and armies of 'good' nations do in war, I'm sure you're happier. — Vera Mont

Are you being self-referential here or just making a general statement of opinion about the approach of many or most people? I assume the 'you' you are referring to above, is not me, as I don't see how you could conclude that I am, from what I have typed so far in this thread, someone who would do what you suggest in the quote above.
When the nefarious are on the rise Vera, I do think that a kind of cold 'necessity as the mother of invention,' will often come into play. Are you not suggesting something similar yourself?

I am here for the incredible constant waves of all consuming positivity that shines forth from TPF members like a warm welcoming blanket in a freezing dark night. How happy and content with the human experience you all are and what fantastic role models you all are for the next up and coming generation of keen young minds. Or have I missed something?

Including the wankers and cunts. — bert1

Probably because like most men, including me, you do both!

The key difference is that the observation of Bertlmann's socks is explained by the pre-measurement colors of the socks. Whereas the observation of the entangled qubits can't be explained by pre-measurement values, as shown by Bell's Theorem. Which is why quantum interpretations become relevant (note the Local dynamics column). — Andrew M

Ok, It seems to me that your the sock example you site is similar to the glove example.
So if both gloves are individually boxed and are sent a great distance away from each other, then the moment I open my box, I know instantly, the contents of the other box, based on one left and one right handed glove, regardless of the distance between the two boxes. I understand that in this sense, the two gloves are set at their creation. Is SPDC simply asserting the same for these two entangled photons?
So, when you locally open one of the boxes, that act, does not affect the state of the gloves.
But a qubit can have more that two states due to superposition states. A qubit does not just resolve to 1 or 0, it can be in a superposition of 1 and 0.
The nature of the gloves as left or right handed is there from the beginning, just like in QFT, a coordinate in spacetime can manifest any of the known particle states/field excitations (almost like an interdimensional vibrating superstring). Entanglement may 'correlate' (as a field excitation 'travels') the states of two spacetime coordinates, regardless of the distance between them.
What's wrong with the imagery I am invoking, if it's incorrect.

Then they are no different from bad people. If there is no difference in behaviour, what is the difference? — unenlightened

There is a massive difference in the outcome for the majority of the stakeholders involved.
No-one is 100% good or 100% bad.
We are all capable of being judged as either good or bad, based on the act being judged and who is doing the judging.
For example. I personally judge Winston Churchill as being an evil man. But I would have made the same decision he did, regarding the evacuation of Coventry, he could have ordered, before it was almost bombed into nonexistence during WW 2.
The difference between us, is that I don't think I could have continued to live, after the war. I think I would have killed myself for that particular decision.
I would act like an evil man and would accept my own destruction and utter condemnation, if it meant that I destroyed the nefarious in the process and significantly improved the lives of the majority who were hitherto subjugated by them. If many innocents died because of my method of destroying the nefarious then I think I would still do it, but I don't think I could survive it.
I leave the judgement of who is nefarious and who fights the nefarious to others such as yourself.
We each develop our own moral compass. Others will judge the legitimacy of your moral compass, whether you agree with them or not.

Fascism is alive and well. — Vera Mont

It's global rise and it's ability to organise and co-ordinate was smashed, and the fact that it still has little national embers, and manifestations, does not explain how is was so significantly defeated, despite your claim. that the nefarious cannot be defeated by the good and the good have had no significant victories.
In the West, significant peasantry and serfdom no longer exists. These are significant Victories. Free medical care systems, Free education systems and welfare state systems are significant victories over the nefarious. The list goes on.

But the aspiring German empire was smashed not by good people doing good things; it was defeated in a bloody, brutal, wasteful, horrible war, by other nations using the very same method as the aggressor. — Vera Mont

So, no 'good' people were involved in the defeated of the Germans, Japanese, Italians etc in WW 2?
That's just BS!
The defeat of fascism was indeed achieved by good people doing good things, like destroying the ability of the enemy to exist, in any form, which is able to act as a force.

Good people can use nefarious people against nefarious people.
— universeness

And then they themselves become nefarious. — Vera Mont

Some can and do, many remain 'good' but a little conflicted. The point is that good people will get in amongst the mud, the blood, the guts and the shadows to defeat the nefarious, if they have to.
The 'good' cannot defeat the nefarious!!!!! Hah! What utter tosh!

Did you side with the scientifically elegant bombs? — Vera Mont

I side with choosing the better of two evils if there are no other choices.

That's not the choice for values. That's a simplistic depiction of a long and complex moral development. — Vera Mont

You are just engaging in superfluous wordplay Vera.
Putting together all the parts of the internet involved a long road of complex creations and developments. The internet is the result. The 'complexity' involved, is of little interest to the users and is treated as a black box. We can now each choose our base values from all the inputs, processes and outputs we observe and experience everyday. How much you choose to drill down into the complex historical development of each IPO, is a matter for each individual. Those who are inspired by, and aspire to, the scientific method, will probably drill into the historicity of IPO's, more than theists will.

That is odd. It seems quite undeniable that the power of the good is reduced by moral scruples and the nefarious have more options available; if it were not so, there would be no difference between them. — unenlightened

How come fascism was so soundly smashed then, when those who supported it tried to take over the planet? Good people can use nefarious people against nefarious people. The 'good' people are perfectly capable of being as devious as the nefarious, if they have to. They will still champion the good, after they have did what they had to do, to smash the nefarious. I have had the 'were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs better than a mainland invasion of Japan' debate, many times.

One can point to the cyber wars where security is always playing catch-up to hackers, for example. — unenlightened

The coming 256 bit encryption available with quantum computing will reduce cyber crime and may even wipe it out!

These values are not demonstrated by science, but presumed. The 'success' of science might recommend these values to pragmatists, but that is also not part of the scientific project; such recommendations might equally come from pop-stars or monks or successful psychopaths. — unenlightened

The only values we truly know and understand, are human values, yes that's true. So, It's up to all humans to decide if they want to base their personal values on the inputs, processes and outputs of theism (Including monks), pop-stars, psychopaths or science. I have already made my choices to base my values on. I assume you have too. I further assume we are both well cooked by now. But, how we advise the next generation ........ now that does really matter.

I also enjoy watching and listening to Sabine. The branes in Mtheory are also suggested as a possible source for a multiverse. When two branes interact, a new universe starts. I also like CCC from Roger Penrose.
All more interesting and likely than god posits imo.