Remember Socrates, the father of Western philosophy, was executed! — Agent Smith

So, are these examples of philosophers who played the brinkmanship game and lost? or did they actually win due to a martyrdom card? You, for example have accepted the title of 'the father of western philosophy,' even though we have no actual writings from Socrates.
Would you call a character like Jordan Peterson a philosopher who likes to use brinkmanship?
He seems to suggest concepts like 'If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.' (line from a well-known Manic Street Preachers song.) Whereas, Sam Harris, Steve Pinker etc, not so much.
Is philosophical brinkmanship the only way to attract the majority?

No one is hated more than he who speaks the truth. — Plato

But how do we stop, 'truth is a question of who has the biggest stick!'

Yep, I agree. I might even say that some far-right wackos, perhaps even fascists, are wearing some interesting labels nowadays. What would a WPF badge signify to you? Is there a philosophical brinkmanship being currently championed? For good and bad purposes? Has this always been so?
Do you have fav philosophers that liked to take people to a brink of thought? Is Jordan Peterson a good example? Did Dan Dennet try to warn against such brinkmanship with his term deepities?

The money trick!
In my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes our human race ever made.
When enough people with power and influence fully recognise the mistake and want to change things then maybe humans will learn to nurture life and all living things and not something as destructive as the nurture of profit. Can humans create a stable, progressive, fair society? We have not been able to so far, or at least all attempts to do so have failed due to a corrupt few from the inside or due to an outside, already established plutocratic force, controlled by a few.
BUT, the struggle to succeed continues.

I am doing it good with the exception of going to therapy. — javi2541997

Personally, I probably would go to my doctor and say something like.
"I am worried I might be bipolar or something, what do I do about it?"
I think I would do so because my curiosity would overwhelm me if I strongly recognised myself in a particular list of symptoms for an ailment but then I could be a bit of a hypochondriac as well.
As long as you feel that what you are doing now, allows you to live a life that is significantly far away from one of horror, terror and a compulsion to become an unhappy, awkward, socially isolated hermit.
A socially isolated hermit is fine, but only if you can exist as a 'happy' one.

They just answered "You have crippling depression" and they prescribed me some pills that I am currently taking every morning — javi2541997

This might be worth reading, not for just you but anyone who can fully recognise themselves in this:

Causes
The exact cause of bipolar disorder is unknown, but several factors may be involved, such as:
Biological differences. People with bipolar disorder appear to have physical changes in their brains. The significance of these changes is still uncertain but may eventually help pinpoint causes.
Neurotransmitters. An imbalance in naturally occurring brain chemicals called neurotransmitters seems to play a significant role in bipolar disorder and other mood disorders.
Inherited traits. Bipolar disorder is more common in people who have a first-degree relative, such as a sibling or parent, with the condition. Researchers are trying to find genes that may be involved in causing bipolar disorder.

Symptoms
Symptoms can last over a few weeks, months, or even years. The symptoms vary during the manic and depressive phase. And without any symptoms, in between episodes of mania and depression.
The manic phase is characterised by:
Extreme happiness, hopefulness, and excitement
Irritability, anger, fits of rage and hostile behaviour
Restlessness
Agitation
Rapid speech
Poor concentration and judgment
Increased energy
Less need for sleep
Unusually high sex drive
Setting unrealistic goals
Paranoia

The depressive phase may include:
Sadness and crying
Feelings of hopelessness, worthlessness, and guilt
Loss of energy
Loss of interest or pleasure in everyday activities
Trouble concentrating and making decisions
Irritability
Need for more sleep or sleeplessness
Change in appetite
Weight loss/gain
Suicidal thoughts and attempts at suicide

Treatments
Bipolar disorder lasts for a lifetime, with treatments aiming at managing the symptoms by psychotherapy and medication.
Medication
Mood stabilizers: Helps control extreme mood variations.
Carbamazepine · Lamotrigine · Valproate
Antipsychotic drugs: Help reduce symptoms of psychosis such as illusion, hallucination, etc.
Olanzapine · Quetiapine · Lurasidone · Cariprazine
Antidepressants: Helps stabilise the mood swings.
Sertraline · Fluoxetine · Citalopram · Desvenlafaxine · Duloxetine · Levomilnacipran · Venlafaxine
Antianxiety drugs: Reduces anxiousness.
Alprazolam · Clonazepam · Diazepam · Lorazepam · Oxazepam
Therapies: Psychotherapy · Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) · Transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS)

some of us havta lose our minds just not to die. Imagine! — Agent Smith

Very enigmatic Mr Smith. Your full back story becomes more and more intriguing. I would like to know the details, but I think you won't do that as you prefer the enigmatic label.

I don't think I need to explain that to someone of your caliber — Agent Smith

Very kind words! I hope I am worthy of them at some level. Like you sir, I fight to try to be wise and make sense of my experience and existence as a human being and my compulsion remains to celebrate life and reject the notion that life is a curse. It seems to me that you fluctuate between the pro and anti life celebration camps. I would love to convert you fully to a complete positivist/optimist with no pessimistic undertones at all. But ah don't fancy ma chances! :smile:
At least I can cite you as someone who is determined to keep Latin 'Vivus!'

So, what is the life lesson or point behind Zhuangzhi's dream that you were trying to use in response to what I have typed so far in this thread?
Was it your words:

some of us havta lose our minds just not to die. — Agent Smith

Yes. Well, I think when I wrote those lines I was medicated. I am even surprised how positive it was. Like it is weird that state of mind in my life. — javi2541997

Perhaps you need some 'thought detox,' as the title of the thread suggests. Perhaps you would benefit from retraining yourself out of your possible addiction to pessimism and despair.
You don't of course need to answer this, but are you bipolar?
Please forgive my impudence but I think in today's world, it's very very important that we all try to remove any stigma attached to talking about dealing with depression, despair etc. It needs to be an everyday, expected, normal subject to discuss, as the vast majority (if not all) of people experience such, regularly and for many, excessively.
Feel free to tell me to f*** off and mind my own business!

Did you hear the story of Zhuangzi who was confused about whether he was a man or a butterfly? — Agent Smith

No, I had to rely on google again. My knowledge of China is based on its political, natural and social history rather than its mythical history. From google I got "The Zhuangzi consists of a large collection of anecdotes, allegories, parables, and fables, which are often humorous or irreverent. Its main themes are of spontaneity in action and of freedom from the human world and its conventions."
For me, this strains any personal interest I have and reduces it to whatever interest I can muster for any fairy tale. Hans Christian Anderson, Walt Disney and Chinese Taoism. I find it hard to see anything in such apart from entertainment and possibly some life lessons based on scenarios exemplified in storytelling. Like the wisdom of Solomon examples or any other cautionary tale, wrapped up in a fable.
If any of my friends informed me of their concern that the issue of gender identity was never a problem for them, but they were unable to confirm what species they were, between hominid and invertebrate insect, then I would probably suggest they consult a psychiatrist rather than marvel at their dalliance with Chinese Taoism. I have two questions about Zhuangzi.
1. Did he have memories of time spent as a caterpillar?
2. Did he ever question why they were called butterflies? What have they to do with butter? Why are they not called flutterby's? As that is what they do! They flutterby!
Edit: I looked up the etymology of butterfly and it said the insect often consumed butter or milk left open. So, it could have been named milkfly or buttermilkfly. I think my 'flutterby' is better.

Solutions? — Agent Smith

Don't act like a moth to a flame! Humans are not moths nor do they have to act like them.

Positivism/optimism! :yawn: — javi2541997

Was that the yawn of a young man who sometimes needs to be a pessimist as that is an addiction he has developed based on his own 'thoughts and musings regarding the human experience?
On another thread, you were expressing your recent positivity/optimism. Are you often 'up the hill and down again?'

All the scenario's you exemplify are valid Tom. An addiction to a worthwhile cause such as altruism, life or truth seeking also requires wisdom and balance. Not easy to achieve perfect balance but its good to be addicted to trying to achieve such balance and 'prevent' any of the scenarios you caution.

Not all addictions are bad, such as addiction to life, truth seeking, fighting injustice, altruism.

I can do some good by testifying at the Oregon Legislature after the first of the year. I am really excited about what I might do. — Athena

I have no doubt about that and believe the above quote to be quite accurate. You seem a tour de force.
I just wish others with power and determination would rally to you. Look at the women of Iran right now!
They have had enough of backwards misogynistic shit from religious antiques, and they are protesting and burning their hijabs. When you look at the protesting crowds, there are as many men out supporting the women as there are women. 6 people killed so far but this has not stopped the people. I so hope this grows into a serious challenge to the horrible regime in Iran.

I am reminded of a geology professor's explanation of exponential growth. That last doubling of the population makes manageable problems unmanageable and no one saw it coming because it seems to happen all at once. If we didn't have such a severe housing shortage we wouldn't have such a serious problem with homelessness. If the person I am trying to help could rent a bedroom for $400 there would be no problem. Many homeless people have a monthly income. It just isn't enough to pay the high rents. We don't have the land for more houses and the cost of building is extremely high. :lol: I don't know if a math lesson would help the legislature understand the problem. That is not the emotional story that motivates people to take action. — Athena

An irresistible movement for serious and permanent change can also grow exponentially as well if people have had enough of injustices such as homeless in a land of plenty such as the USA. People get tired of lining the pockets of greedy landlords whilst their tenants live under rules which the landlords don't live under. The few can only steal the cream for so long. If you give people few reasons to live, then their fear reduces more and more, especially their fear of retribution if they revolt. They have little to lose but the controlling few have a great deal to lose.

Just stop using that insider talk when speaking with someone who is not an insider. And like a miracle, people are finally giving us written information that is useful. — Athena

Couldn't agree more, once you get past all the trained monkeys, and the strange sounds and movements they make to distract you from the organ grinder, you reach the truth of the matter and can then clearly reveal how unfair and unfit for purpose the system is. Then you and your supporters can demand change, on threat of political deselection/destruction/removal of those currently in power.

You begin by saying the person is homeless and they ask for the person's address. You explain the person has brain damage and they want a phone number. They will gladly send information to a person's email and s/he can print it. Like they seem to have no clue of what it means to be homeless and brain damaged and without resources. — Athena

As I typed, the distracting monkeys are well trained. They are perfectly aware that their system is front loaded with as much BS info as possible and as many 'up the hill and down again and around and around we go' pathways, to compel most applicants to go away and stop bothering them for help.
They know EXACTLY how to help each person but many local authorities would much rather spend their budget on maintaining the surrounding and services they provide for the 'well off,' people, not the challenged, needy people they consider a drain on their resources. The only hope for such challenged people is people like you!

what is happening is a real horror of unmet human needs. — Athena

I will back off Athena. I don't want it to seem like I am trying to manipulate your heartstrings to compel you to keep doing what you have always done. You have battled in support of those which our current society ignores and discards, you have done enough, regardless of what you decide to do next.

I don't like that representation. An only, unique, solitary monolith is what makes a lot of debate.
When you see a lot of them you feel outrageous — javi2541997

Yeah, I love sci-fi, especially Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars etc but some storylines have been visited tooooooooooo many times!
2001 was rubbish when I first saw it at around 15 years of age but I began to appreciate it as I got older.
2010 was an okay sequel but the 'alien first contact' storyline and the 'terraforming' monoliths was a bit disappointing.
I remembered the storyline incorrectly however. (see the clip below) The monoliths get together and 'ignite' Jupiter creating a small second sun in our solar system and I think they also terraform some of jupiters moons for use by humans so not Mars and Venus as I suggested. BUT they also warn humans not to land on Jupiters moon Europa. It's like a throwback to the garden of eden where the humans can do as they like but they must stay away from one of the big trees! :lol:

Did you see the sequel, 2010?
In that, the monolith had a lot of duplicates, and the suggestion eventually was an alien source.
In the film, many monoliths turn up and 'terraform' Mars and Venus (I think) and very quickly make them Earth like, to give two new liveable planets for us humans to expand into. With various warnings and complaints from the 'alien' source that we better improve our behaviour with these two added planets OR ELSE!

To me, it always signified the Christian stone tablets (commandments) but this had nothing written on it.
So, all the hominids stared at its smooth, designed, cuboid shape and knew none of their kind could have created it so ........ gods?

I think Kubrick was also trying to say, 'yeah you lot wish you could get some useful supernatural advice written on stone tablets but the best you are ever going to get is sci fi stories like this one. The rest is on you, it's your burden to figure it all out, including all the mysteries. There are no gods to help you!'

The 'unsullied' as portrayed in Game of Thrones? Could such a group be easily created today?
How accurate is this song from one of my fav bands, MUSE!


Can a particular morality be indelibly marked on humans? I think the answer is no. I think there is some small aspects of 'what you are born with,' that influences morality. The majority of an individual's morality does come from nurture and the social/economic/cultural/political/traditional influences they experience BUT some 'inherent' aspect can also assert itself at any point such as an inherent cruelty or empathy, no matter how deep down it has been pushed.

Are we born with a certain set of morals or an inbuilt moral code or does this need to be learned, taught by experience? — David S

I think this can be angled as 'to what extent could newborns be indoctrinated/moulded from birth?'
Could a powerful totalitarian/autocratic organisation/group/individual, mould humans 'EXACTLY' to their specification. To install a belief system and a morality that was exactly as required by the will of the controlling source. Would there eventually be anomalies? Would one or two fully manipulated human minds from birth eventually understand that the imposed morality need not be blindly obeyed, it can be questioned and would such anomalies be inevitable and would eventually make the original intentions untenable. Even in the matrix films, the intended 'batteries,' rebelled.

'Promession,' is a method of the disposal of dead bodies. You freeze the body to a very low temperature and then you pass a powerful sonic wave thought the body and it shatters into a very fine white powder.
The process was supposed to be much more friendly to the environment in comparison to burial or cremation, but I don't think science is yet able to create a viable promession system, yet.
You can visit a grave 'in memoriam,' you can also do so to a much lesser degree based on a crematoriums memorial garden or by visiting where cremated or promessed ashes/powder is deposited.
Death rituals have been with us since our hominid species arrived and technology offers us different ways to 'handle' dead bodies, mainly human but beloved pets as well.
The 'in memoriam' aspect of death is so wrapped up in cultural/tribal/religious/national tradition that it will probably be unlikely to impose a 'one method fits all' system. Perhaps in the future the idea of 'burying' human bodies and marking the grave will be phased out. I for one would support such a move for a myriad of reasons related to the 'in memoriam' issue. I think I probably hold minority views on 'the philosophy of death' label/concept.

Attempt some crowdfunding and perhaps you could post the details here and perhaps some TPF members would contribute to a support fund. I would.
If I lived in Oregon I could help more, but I live in Scotland, so I do what I can when I can here and from here.

I am so aware of turning a blind eye to the suffering of others. I do feel guilty when I pretend someone
in need is not there. We have many beggars on our streets so this happens daily. To survive I just have to limit the people I engage with. That is why I become politically active from time to time. There is so much unmet human need out there that charitable organizations are not enough. Only the government is large enough organization to manage the problem, and the problem is increasing daily like global warming. This is overpopulation and I so regret religions that argue against the things we can do for birth control. — Athena

You did not create the circumstances that some people live in. You REALLY have to remind yourself that you are not responsible, WE ALL ARE. You are trying to hold your hands up to try to deflect some of the blows that are being rained down on some people. YOU ARE AT LEAST DOING THAT. Most people do less than you, a lot less than you, especially amongst those who DO have the power, position and wealth to make a significant difference. I fully agree that you should continue to try to get as much help as you can from ANY other group/organisation/network/individual you can, to try to alleviate some of the pressure on you. Even something as enigmatic as crowdfunding may be a source of help for you.

15,000 CHILDREN UNDER 5 years of age die EVERY DAY from preventable conditions such as hunger, curable/preventable disease etc. That's a Jewish holocaust EVERY YEAR! (15000x365=5475000).
Innocent children! We can't act like theists and say things like 'god works in mysterious ways.' But in truth, I think that only satisfies very few people. Probably only quite self-absorbed, narcissistic people.
We must try to do what people like you do and add our hands to your hands where and when we can.
It's very hard when we are trying to deflect waves coming towards people with our hands, but many hands make light work. You are a tiny row boat in an ocean of need, yet you will still try to pull one or two people out of the water, even risking yourself, falling into the water.
If there is a god and folks like you don't get into the heaven you imagine, then the vast majority of all who call themselves Christian or Moslem etc, etc ad nauseum, won't get in either, including most kings, queens, popes, priests, nuns, ministers, imams, guru's etc etc.

I agree that YOU as a combinatorial system, no longer exists after death. 'Nothing is destroyed,' only relates to mass/energy equivalence. Any functional system will be destroyed via entropy and will no longer exist in its current form. Death does 'destroy' you in that sense.

Do you get no comfort from the suggestion that we are all connected via the components we are made of? Conservation laws? Only the form changes, nothing is destroyed or created. We disassemble after death and what we were become universal spare parts again. How many atoms in you right now were once part of other life forms? All newborn humans are made from components which have existed in different forms, since the origin of the universe. Maybe some sub-atomic bits of you were once bits of Aristotle, uggar the now completely unknown friend of Lucy the Homo Sapien, a tree, a comet, a star and Adolf Hitler.

:up:

I accept your honourable intentions, but I remain concerned about the samurai tradition of obedience to superiors without question. You know such authority can become utterly corrupt, just like some of the politicians you mention. My advice would be to completely abandon that part of Bushido, only be loyal to those who have proven worthy of your loyalty and even then, only for as long as they remain worthy.

BANZAI! Brother :sparkle: :fire: — javi2541997

I fully applaud your intent to fight against despair and I absolutely call you brother in that. I will willingly shout/scream BANAZI with you as we charge with gleaming bayonets drawn, against our common enemy .... despair.
BUT I would have fought whole heartedly against the fascist Japanese in WW 2. I would have killed the guy in the picture, in battle (or at least, I would have tried to) and I would seek to free the subservient looking female in the picture from what seems to be an imposed cultural subservience (but only of-course, if she consented to my interference and help.)

The idea itself is easy to debunk. — apokrisis

So go ahead and do so.

My particular reason for calling Hameroff a charlatan was the transparency with which when he saw I wasn’t buying his quantum coherence in microtubules story, he then switched to his earlier speculative theory about microtubules as cellular automata computers of consciousness. — apokrisis

So, you have a personal or professional association with him?
You would need to offer more details or risk the label 'crank dissenter,' or 'disgruntled dissenter' because he didn't answer your email in the way you wanted him to, or a scenario like that?

I agree that the general neuroscience community and the current main forces in the quantum physics community have not offered much support of the Hameroff and Penrose proposals, on the workings of human consciousness but most of the dissention I have read about so far is just broad based, off hand dismissal with counter scientific points being made. The main dissentions seem based on claims like 'that's unlikely and here's why,' but nothing that convincingly proves Hameroff and Penrose wrong.

It seems to me that most folks contributing to this thread would advocate for a sociopolitical system that did not allow homelessness or people who had mental or physical challenges that they received no help for and were left to 'make do or die,' in a dark corner somewhere, without 'bothering' or 'inconveniencing' the lives of anyone else, especially the rich, powerful and privileged.
Evil persists when good people do nothing.
Humans cause such circumstances; humans allow them to persist, humans have the collective power to change such circumstances.
YES, I KNOW, such change IS much easier to type about than to make into a reality and by doing so, improve the human experience. BUT it must still be constantly stated, screamed, voted for, insisted upon and finally perhaps even physically warred for. One thing is for sure, preventing the kind of situations @athena et al reports, and it's many, far worse variations, such as famine, continuing human slavery etc, etc. will not end until humans organise themselves into the kinds of political and social movements that will force them to end by hand or by brain or both.

To be honest... I think that the only way to face future is attitude and maturity. Keep fighting against the obstacles! :fire: — javi2541997

BANZAI!

(Hyper)sensitive peeps, among which number antinatalists, are for me canaries in coal mines - their hyperalgesia is kinda a superpower, buying time for "normal" folks to respond to imminent danger. You could say, in a sense, that hyperalgesics/antinatalists are the nociceptive system of the superorganism that is humanity. — Agent Smith

Yeah, I feel pity for them too, who wants to be a caged canary? The first to die if the gas escapes, but yeah, perhaps they don't die in vain. We can learn to work harder to solve excessive human suffering due to their complaints regarding their own conceptions of what they regard as their own intolerable lives or what they exemplify as the intolerable lives of others.

Thanks for sharing that. All potential suicides should read your post and reflect on how such an action can affect the lives of others. I hope your best moments of joy in life are yet to come.
Maybe reading a post such as yours could even stop a suicide. Let's hope so.

Argh! Hameroff is a charlatan. I don't say that lightly.

Neurobiology certainly is quantum in interesting ways. Science has established that. But Hameroff is peddling a different level of bullshit. Penrose gullibly is along for the ride. — apokrisis

You would need to provide a lot more evidence than your typed protestation above.
How about debunking the content of:
Consciousness, microtubules and the physics of the brain.

The Kalam argument says that "whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence, (ii) The universe began to exist, and (iii) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence". Which is undeniably true of anything within the cause & effect chain of Space-Time. But, it implies that the First Cause is external & eternal, hence not subject to the restrictions of space-time or matter-energy-entropy. — Gnomon

I think it's now more commonly known as the completely debunked Kalam cosmological argument.
William Lane Craig is all smoke and mirrors. Even the most basic counter destroys it. If the universe must have a cause then so does your first mind. The infinite regression continues. I also already stated that in quantum physics, retrocausality is possible.

in the same sense that the Big Bang Singularity is "Preternatural" (prior to space-time). Hence, both are "ascientific" in Hossenfelder's terms. — Gnomon

No, as the proposed singularity 'contained' spacetime. The point is that we don't yet know the origin of the universe story but your first cause mind BS is a higher intensity of BS compared to any origin posit suggested by science. I doubt the Kalam total BS is supported by Sabine Hossenfelder.

Astrophysicist Ethan Seigel :
Contrary to recent headlines and Penrose’s assertions, there is no evidence of “a Universe before the Big Bang.” — Gnomon

Penrose posits 'hawking points,' as evidence of a previous universe or aeon. The evidence he cites is fully supported by evidence from the Wmap data and the Planck data. He suggests the evidence he and his team has found and published has a 96% confidence level and has, to-date, not been adequately responded to by the current science community. The Penrose Bounce is like the vast majority of scientific posits, not as you suggest 'philosophical BS' but is based on the rigour of the application of the scientific method. Your first cause mind on the other hand, is like the Kalam, theistic BS.

So, you consider the existence of sentient humans just the luck-of-the-draw? — Gnomon

There is no draw and your synonyms of happenstance do not preclude me from disassociating 'accident' and life being produced as a result of random combination of fundamentals and composites over 13 billion years of time. No god mind required, apart from the need of people like yourself to make forlorn special pleads for it's existence. Many humans feel inadequate, a god mind helps them feel a little more secure. It's just the fantasy superhero image who they want as their benevolent creator and protector. William Lane Craig obviously feels inadequate without it.

If Natural Selection has no future-oriented "intent", — Gnomon

Natural selection has no intent, but human minds do! You have an intent to explain the universe origin story by positing an eternal mind creator. We are products of the process of evolution via natural selection, but WE DO have intent. You can argue that the Universe now has intent via lifeforms such as us but that for me, is a form of panpsychism or (as a bone for the theists), an emergent pantheism.

Why did Darwin feel the need to postulate "Natural Selection" if not
to provide a hypothetical alternative to "Supernatural Selection"? :halo: — Gnomon

Because, it was not a hypothetical alternative to woo woo, (no wonder you include an appeal to a halo emoticon, even you know you are typing nonsense comparisons.) it was the discovery of the fact of natural selection based on overwhelming empirical evidence, including the fact the 99% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct.

You seem incredulous. Is that because Sabine's frame is different from your own faith-frame? Just kidding. :joke: — Gnomon

You demonstrate your own personal need for others to have a 'faith frame.' You reveal your personal wish that a first cause, supernatural, superhero, mind that cares about you is REAL and exists.
No kidding, good luck with that fantasy, if it helps you sleep easier.

Quantum Fields are imaginary metaphors. So there is no hard "evidence" of creative "fluctuations". — Gnomon

The theory of quantum fields is arguably the most successful scientific theory of all time. In some cases, it makes predictions that agree with experiments to an astonishing 12 decimal places.

So, if not due to "that which already has existence", what is that mathematical-point-of-origin (Singularity) evidence of? Existent Something from pre-existent nothing? — Gnomon

WE DONT KNOW YET! 'Nothing' has no demonstrable example in this universe, nor in science. Even the symbol 0 is not nothing. A singularity is just 'something' that the fundamentals came from. It is simply a label for THE fundamental source, it is a mindless spark that no longer exists. We have NO IDEA what a singularity is. I for one, am totally convinced that it certainly IS NOT a first cause mind.

Thanks for lending me your sharp weeding implements. That's what philosophical forums are for : sharing of ideas & experiences & beliefs & opinions & theories. — Gnomon

:up: I agree, btw, imo, solipsism is nonsense.

My website & blog attempt to make "crystal clear" why I have concluded that an intentional First Cause is necessary to explain how a heuristic process (evolution) could produce an effect (sentience) that can conceptualize its own heritage. — Gnomon

I prefer to follow the work of Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose on the question of human consciousness. The posit that a 'supernatural' (first cause) mind took over 13 billion years to reproduce something with a mind is rather mindless and akin to such nonsense as the kalam cosmological argument.

And you know this how? — Gnomon

I assign more credence to life created through natural happenstance than to your first cause mind posit.
My 'know' is no more powerful than this.

Could the seed of that conclusion have been in the original belief in creative accidents? — Gnomon

I don't consider happenstance or random combination, accidental. Everything that can combine will combine as time passes. If it can happen, it will happen somewhere at some time.

What you see depends on your frame. — Gnomon

Sure, so we are aware of that. I don't see how that adds to the credence of a first cause mind.
Perhaps is a failure of your frame of reference which causes you to give more credence to a first cause mind than I do.

Evolution is creative of novelty, not because of random Mutations, but due to functional Selection. A selection is a choice. And, by definition, a choice is not accidental, but intentional. A choice is a Cause. Life happened, not by stance or chance, but by Causation. — Gnomon

Not functional selection but natural selection which has no intent. Selection is based on the other species getting wiped out due to happenstance changes in environmental conditions. Simple law of the jungle conditions. Real accident can then play a small role, yes, most lifeforms have intent so accidents then become possible as a phenomena, that might be conceptualised as such, by lifeforms.

A cause-and-effect relationship is claimed where the following conditions are satisfied: the two events occur at the same time and in the same place; one event immediately precedes the other; the second event appears unlikely to have happened without the first event having occurred. — Gnomon

In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause

Of course. As true believers, they would be offended by the accusation of "ascientific" faith. But Sabine says "show me the evidence" for imaginary worlds or 'verses beyond the one we can test empirically. — Gnomon

Like Sabine, Sean and Allan 'seek and require the evidence,' that does not preclude them from assigning a high level of credence to the many worlds posit or inflation. Just as Sabine disagrees with that high level of credence. You pick your team, and you raise your standard in that camp. It has always been and always will be thus. I see no credence in the evidence you have provided for your first cause mind with intent posit.

The Anthropic book actually calculates the likelihood of directional motion without an intentional mover. It's analogous to a pool-cue-ball accidentally putting the eight-ball in a side pocket without intention or aiming. :confused: — Gnomon

So, what evidence from the random chaos of quantum fluctuations within quantum fields do you suggest supports the anthropic principle?

Ironically, that's exactly why I concluded that creative ability requires can-do Mind. Your programming mind does not "manifest" to me, except in its effects : the programs themselves are the evidence of the intent. We know the "mind" of the programmer by examining the program. In my example, creative Evolution, which modern programmers are learning to emulate. — Gnomon

The ability to mimic that which already has existence and is knowable and can be studied and analysed and reverse engineered, is no evidence that the process was started by a first cause supernatural mind.
Such posits are just the anthropocentric musings of some humans. It is just intuitive to them that consciousness can only be produced by that which has been eternally conscious. But, we already know that intuitive thought alone will not explain the origin story of the universe as it cannot even explain quantum entanglement, superposition or quantum tunnelling yet.

Can your programs calculate the answer to universal questions? If not, maybe they need to be reprogrammed by a Universal Programmer. — Gnomon

No, scientists just need more time to answer such universal questions. A few thousand years of scientific enquiry is merely the beginning. Ask your question again 7 .5 million years from now (deep thought time to answer with 42.)

Thanks for the questions & challenges. They help me to weed-out my own self-justifying opinions. — Gnomon

You have a lot more weeding to do but you are certainly not alone in that venture.

I agree, as do most, if not all rational people imo. Excess suffering remains a problem to be solved and human science is clearly motivated to continue to try to solve it. Advocating a solution of extinction or non-existence, is simply stupid.

Amazing quote, friend. If you do not mind I will keep it with me. I feel it so motivational :up: — javi2541997

YOU CAN WIN AGAINST DESPAIR! AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!
Decide/demand/command and FEEL differently! FLIP IT!
When I get those down, desperate, depressing feelings for whatever reason, I will get PISSED OFF and I will FLIP THEM. I will fight them in my head, they will return and I will fight them again and eventually I will win. I will distract myself, I will write, paint, go on to forums, look for old hero's who inspired me and will read or watch them again. I will go out and walk, fast and long, I will........ spend that hour fighting despair and the next one as I know those hours will pass regardless so I choose to fight my inner demons and I can, have and always will defeat them. From hell's teeth I will spit at them!
I CHOOSE LIFE!!!!!

I am in favor of private ownership and control. However, not laissez-faire economics. A policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering. have been mentally lazy and ignored all the issues of economics and we are not well-informed voters. — Athena

Then you must continue your struggle with your landlord as regards your rent for living where you live and with his/her power to evict you and make you homeless. I will continue to fight for what I believe is a better way.

I think if you were aware of how technology has changed our expectations and our values and how we think you would see the social change more clearly. — Athena

I am aware of such and the 'we' you refer to does not include me. I see technological advancement as a sword which cuts both ways. It can be a tool to make the rich richer but it is also a tool that can free the majority from crap jobs and allow them to educate themselves and communicate globally and organise resistance globally.

We all have our favourite books Athena and our favourite commentators and comments from the past.
The only system that is truly about rule from the top is one which sustains a totalitarian monarch, autocrat or self-proclaimed divinity. I would be in armed revolution against such a system if I lived under it. Free market capitalism based on some pseudo-democratic voting system such as the 'first past the post,' system I live under in the UK (although we have made some progression in Scotland with our re-established parliament/government based on a PR voting system), is more common in the west.
Free market capitalism is a much-diluted version of a plutocracy, and it will, inevitably be replaced by a humanist/socialist system imo and technological advances will eventually assist in bringing down free market capitalism as the money trick becomes fully revealed to more and more people.

I will hold you accountable for keeping your word and under that condition you may be more concerned about what I think of you and how I will react if you are not a good person. — Athena

I fully agree with you here and this must be the measure of everyone who is given authority over people's lives and who represents their interests.
If socialists/humanists do not or cannot do what they said they would do before they were elected, then they cannot continue in power. I personally would not be concerned about what you or anyone else thinks about me as I would hopefully be too busy trying to ensure I do exactly what I promised to do.

I do not think we should provide for individuals without good cause because then we have people with weak character, doomed to be dependent on others. It is the parent's responsibility to raise children to become independent but they can not do this alone. The parent's efforts must be supported by the school system and youth programs and how about good media all focusing on a good culture and human dignity? — Athena

I advocate for 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.'
People are very complex, we have to have a very smart, fair, balanced, compassionate, sociopolitical system which is very very difficult to con or abuse. Not easy to achieve but that remains the goal and always will be the goal if the human race is ever to become able to evolve into a species which is benevolent to the universe it exists in and become an interplanetary and interstellar species.

I came across to think that suffering from failures doesn't help anyone. It is a very complex task to accept how we are and how we can better persons both professional and personal. — javi2541997

Anyway, I feel better whenever I share my thoughts and problems around here. It is better to just keep it them only with myself. — javi2541997

For me, It was such a vital moment when I deeply understood that an hour will pass anyway, regardless of my mental state. I CAN CHOOSE to experience that hour as a curse, or I can struggle against such with the intent to defeat it. I choose to fight despair anytime and every time it attack's me. I have experienced more happiness in my life so far than I have experienced despair with this approach.
I will leave it to Captain Kirk to express his and my opinion of personal pain: