It actually stands for Simple Con Idea! :lol:
3mReplyOptions
— universeness

Logical conclusion: physics=simpleconideagod! Forget your money! :lol: — Hillary

:rage: :broken: Who told you such lies?????
Of Course, SCI is short for science. I hope it wasn't that fallen exSCIgodian @Agent Smith who told you this totally FAKE BS that I typed that SCI stood for Simple Con Idea.
He just makes stuff up! Our lawyers are going to sue him.
Join us brother. Join our happy family. :halo:

Of course. But many scientists can't and will stick to the woo woo no matter what — Hillary

But those few scientists that are in that category, remain at the fringe or are even ridiculed by the main scientific community.
In the vast majority of those cases, the science community is correct but sometimes they are wrong and when that happens, we normally have a very welcome breakthrough and a complete change of direction and focus. All hail the very very very rare scientist whose idea seemed like looney tunes but actually proved to be correct.

You mean the woo woo of many worlds? — Hillary

The multiverse theory is not woo woo, it has many advocates amongst established cosmologists.
I am not a fake news peddler, I don't ignore those who are established experts in their field because some individuals or groups of malcontents in society, advise me to.

They can suck my eternal di... oops! :lol: — Hillary

And I don't wanna get lost in the dark eternally! — Hillary

Careful sinner! Lest you shall reap the whirlwind and be damned by your own utterances.

What awaits me in that case? Eternal awareness in the light with a lot of input? — Hillary

No cash no cure! You think SCIgod is a charity? What level of salvation in the afterlife can you afford?
Abandon all hope. Utter darkness has no meaning of its own. It is hungry for your eternally aware presence. Your damnation and the damnation of your like, will sate its hunger.
One special introductory offer of £34.99 will rise to £55.99 next month.
Choose wisely Mr Physics man :death:

Hopefully today, at least here in Scotland, Diogenes would get some assistance from the welfare state, and the NHS. Hopefully, he would be assessed by mental health professionals and receive the medication he needs. Consultations with a psychiatrist would also be on offer.
Charities and foodbanks should not be needed and only exist because of economic imbalance.
This must be stopped. In my socialist/humanist future, Diogenes would thrive.
Alexander would probably be serving life in a high-security jail.
Be careful about any insults (with humorous intent) you make towards @Agent Smith. If he is true to his character, he can send one of his many matrix replicants to take possession of your wife and then goodness knows what he as she, might do to you! :scream:

SCIgod
— universeness

The Holy Trinity (science)

1. Mathematics
2. Rationality
3. Experiment — Agent Smith

:lol: Don't tell @Hillary this as I think I can probably get a lifetime subscription out of him for the SCIgodians. I would normally only reveal this to my most trusted upper circle of the SCIgodian leadership structure but SCI has nothing to do with the word science.
It actually stands for Simple Con Idea! :lol:

But that's up to the people and not for you to decide. And the truth in science of today might be the woowoo of tomorrow. You only have to look at the history of science to conclude that. If some discipline uses woowoo, it's science — Hillary

Can you not distinguish between science that turns out to be wrong and complete woo woo that started off as woo woo and always will be woo woo?
You have invented a space in-between scientific hypotheses, which have been accepted as 'possible' within the scientific community and complete woo woo BS. Is this where your polytheism lives?

I don't need your SCIgod to know physics... The true gods already informed me about the stuff they used.. Sounds very attractive though, and the price is good! Better than the 4 dollar our friend Carroll asks to ask him a question of which you're not even sure of answer! I knew what I would choose for my money! :halo: — Hillary

If you want to join the SCIgod chosen then don't blaspheme!
SCIgod is physics. You are of the Orga and the Mathaphys.
Respect and live the SCIgodian life or be damned to your existence of eternal unsated wants and needs
Eternal awareness in the dark with no input stimuli forever.
At least in the false christian hell you can hear yourself scream.
We have not yet received your first payment and cannot progress your application until we do!

Science has power without it having asked for it! — Hillary

Truth has power as its fundamental quanta. Science searches for truth, theism settles for woo woo!

And there are non-believers becoming believers too! Im one of them. Precisely because I know about the fundamentals of modern physics — Hillary

Then send your monthly subscription to your brothers and sisters, waiting for you here at your nearest SCIgodian branch. We are your true family or at least those who would love to become your family.
We can explain the physics you don't understand. Believe in us and we will save you from your impending self-aware eternal oblivion. The feeling of hunger that persists for eternity but is never sated, the thirst never quenched, the human needs never met. Just you alone, after death, In a dark immortal madness.
All this horror can be avoided and all the enlightenment you will ever need can be achieved at our fabulous bargain introductory price of £34.99.
You know it makes sense. :halo:

Still, you write it with capital c. Now it could be me, but that looks like worshipping — Hillary

I agree with you, it is just your interpretation. Capitalisation can be used as a mere measure of emphasis with no reference to any aspect of worship at all. For me, the label 'worship' is akin to irrational religious need or a rather obsessive aspect of human love or/and addiction.

You even see it as the purpose of being human. But what's so important about Knowledge? It has brought the world at the brink of extinction! You can say humans did that but that's the same as the theistic argument that humans are responsible. — Hillary

What is 'purpose' got to do with 'sacred?' Sacred is another label that relates to the god posit.
It is backward thinking nefarious humans in global positions of power and influence that has brought the human race to the brink of extinction. Those who are xenophobic, territorial, racist, culturalist and mentally imbalanced. I have stated many times that ICBM's don't kill people. They have to be fired at people by other people.

Then it's no free thinking street at all! I just kick back on his pompous ass! — Hillary

Part of the human experience so far results in a so-called 'winners' and 'losers' system
Economically, that must be utterly smashed, globally and permanently.
You are free to think what you want but you cannot action your imperatives if you have no mandate to do so.
Debate/dialogue/discussion and then I hope, the outcome best suited to the needs of the majority involved. The minority will hopefully not become bitter and twisted due to the imposition of the solution decided upon if they at least have economic freedom.
I think theism will continue to dissipate and will reach a similar token status to the current status of monarchy in the not-to-distant future. Good riddance! That's what I mean by you are losing and will continue to lose on the issue of theism. The most avid speakers that theism can offer, get trounced, in my opinion, every time they publically debate atheists.
Theists are the most fertile at producing atheists because theists speak about why they are theists.
All you have offered is the panto response of 'oh no they are not and oh no they don't.'
Meantime, believers are becoming nonbelievers at an ever-increasing pace. Especially when those who are rather lost in life begin to understand the SCIgodian mirror of their belief system and they are offered adequate secular humanist help in their lives.

Yez, but the point is, you follow a theology just the same. You have a sense of wonder in walking through the material universe, which makes the universe itself god or something you worship — Hillary

No, I cant worship that which I am an integrated part of. Does my heart worship my brain?
Do my neurons worship my imagination? The word worship involves deference. The Cosmos is full of wonders that I don't understand but I don't 'worship,' it. I am part of it.
I leave such concepts as worship to insecure theism.

Especially the so worshipped knowledge gathering, which is just wanting to know god. — Hillary

Again you conflate religious labels with scientific pursuits. Knowledge gathering is a natural process of being human, there is no worship involved. Wonder, happiness, frustration, satisfaction yes but not silly labels such as worship. It certainly has nothing to do with knowing that which does not exist.

But how can something so wondrous exist in the first place. A mindless spark seems to render life mindless just the same. Mindless stuff stays mindless, no matter how much you combine of it. Mind is no holistic property od death. — Hillary

Well you will find no final contentment in polytheism, if you did you would come across as a much more contented individual rather than one whose wife lovingly considers you a nutter.

You probably see this as a clever trick to convert you, but that's not gonna happen. — Hillary

:smile: eh.......No.

I just defend my "theology" or religion from Dawkinskian attack. If the guy knew a bit more physics, he would realize science has no answers, as he thinks. And his silly selfish memes and genes even less! I guess I know it... He's a frustrated physicist, bullied at school and taking revenge! — Hillary

IMHO, you are losing, and Dawkins et al, are kicking your ass up and down the streets of free-thinking humanity.

Yes, but it will probably be the only group interested. — Hillary

Hah! they could easily make me rich and powerful, they are all I would need for my rise to power and influence!

Your theology is incoherent, incomprehensible, completely random, directed to power and money, threatens with a terrible afterlife, morally superior towards other gods, and scientifically dubious, to say the least. In short, a theology like most at the moment. It shows the shortcomings of modern theology (of which Dawkins rightly says that a university degree in it doesn't mean shit!). — Hillary

You miss the point, I have no theology, I am an atheist!
But I could easily manipulate the primal fears and personal frailties of lost men and women and theists if that was my nefarious intention from the days of my youth.
Personal wealth, power and influence at any cost was not, is not and never will be my intent.
But then all truly nefarious b******* would say that wouldn't they!
So how do we prevent such people from gaining power and influence without repeating the mistakes of the French and Russian revolutions as dramatised by Orwell in Animal Farm and 1984 or prevent other dystopian dramatisations, such as Huxley's 'Brave new world,' or H.G Wells and 'The shape of things to come,' etc. Humans still have a lot to improve, we don't need the distractions offered by woo woo BS.

Indeed. They make even more miney from atheism than the woowoo salesman of gods. Instead they offer another woowoo under the so-called objective guise of scientific woowoo. Dawkins books are all based on the dogma of molecular biology... More woowoo it can't get. Life being controlled by selfish genes and memes? Ooookaaaaay! — Hillary

All YOU have to do my poor lostboy is join the SCIgodians they will help you much more than your polytheistic gods. :death:

If I now drop my roleplay I would simply say to you, surely! you see how truly nefarious humans operate!
If you think Richard Dawkins is one of the nefarious, then In my opinion you will remain one of the lost boys and you will remain easy meat for the SCIgodians theists or something like them.

It appears that you've left the conclusion of your argument unstated. That's ok by me.
I'd say, belief formation occurs via two ways:
1. Rationally: I'd grill you like a chicken. :chin:
2. Emotionally: If your story stirs the right kinda feelings in me, I might ignore your logical errors. :smile:
The charioteer does have two horses [one, all brain, the other all heart; have you come across xin (heart-mind)] according to Plato. — Agent Smith

I posted some of my reasoning for my roleplay in my previous post to this one.
Your point 2 is one of the main human weak points.
Tao, Zen etc they are all fine but we need to pay more attention to the everyday Realpolitik!!
The nefarious genius is probably the most dangerous member of the human race.
The nefarious genius who also has a deep understanding of human psyche is also incredibly dangerous.
Theism can often be a route to power and influence for such.
Politics is another.
Powerful checks and balances at every level of human society is the only defense that could really stop such individuals.
The Ukraine situation must be made as impossible as possible.
The election of nefarious people to power such as Trump, Putin etc must be made as impossible as possible.
Are the Filipino people really going to go through the 'son of Marcos,' sequel? For f*** sake humans!!

:rofl: Have I sent you all away to have a cup of reflective coffee?
I haven't gone mad or anything, quite the opposite. I think it's important to fully understand how the woo woo can be employed by the nefarious to manipulate primal human fear and personal frailty.
Theism (or more specifically religion) has not been called pernicious by the like of Richard Dawkins for nothing. I am only roleplaying a nefarious peddler of woo woo.
I know that if I had serious intent and I gathered nefarious but intellectually powerful, knowlegable manipulators of human weaknesses around me that I could create a 'terrible' group that could become powerful and influential just like the Christian or Islamic dictates or at least get as far as groups like Scientology but only because far too many of us feel so lost in their own personal lives.
I am not lost and I just want to try to help those who seem to be so.
I believe that the human race can and will do better and I agree with one point Steven Pinker makes most times he is involved in discussions. He always offers examples of how we have improved compared to the past.

OR -- Am I completely off track? — Rocco Rosano

Yeah, you forgot to include SCIgodian proof.
You will experience this proof when you can enter the sanctified dreamstate.
But you need to join first! :naughty:

In the lhbtg community, your bistat god will be embraced! — Hillary

Well, it would be silly to ignore a potential revenue stream wouldn't it!

Ten minutes to conjure up a coherent consistent heaven are not enough, brother Uni! You'll have to come up with something better than bistat fantasies, entertaining as they might be. The human gods, especially your god counterpart, will laugh about it in amusement! But I think the public sees through your trickery! But who knows... In the lhbtg community, your bistat god will be embraced — Hillary

You are a confused non-believer in the truth of SCIgod, my poor sad lostboy human.
We can save you! We can breathe wonder, vitality, purpose, love, loyalty, strength, truth and meaning into your rotting, despondent, depressed persona.

Now send me some of your f****** cash every month and follow us or else you will be damned to an eternity of self-aware oblivion. You will inherit UTTER darkness after death and you will not be able to interact with anything or receive any sensory input at all! Yet you will remain self-aware, FOR ETERNITY. BE AFRAID! MY POOR DAMMED FOOLISH LOSTBOY!

Alternatively and for one week only! You can purchase our level 0 introductory .truthatxt file, not for the incredible, glorious cost of £100, Not even for the unbelievable bargain of £50 but for a mere £34.99.
Come my poor lostboy. Find yourself, find who you are and what you are. Join our loving community of SCIgodians.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna be rich! Waddyafink?

How can that be if the universe is no older than 13.8 billion years? — Hillary

You have to become a glorious, enlightened, intelligent, loved and revered SCIgodian to find out brother!

It would only show that you prefer your own god and want everyone to accept them — Hillary

Do you accept your gods and assign them existence? Am I not allowed to do the same by your rules of play? Are you denying the revealed word of the truth that is SCIgod. It's not my fault you don't understand the physics that demonstrates SCIgod is real!

It would expose tyrannical tendencies — Hillary

If you accept SCIgod then all your confusion will abate. SCIgodians reject all tyrannies, they offer you love, brotherhood, support, family, decency, and purity as long as you live as a SCIgodian.
Yeah, That sounds quite plausible. I am sure I can gain a few subscriptions from that.
Waddyafink?

Consider this. Unicorns, dualcorns, pentacorns, etc. are nice fantasies but gods are no fantasy — Hillary

There are no Unicorns, or Pentacorns, only deluded fools talk about such. There was in fact a Duocorn but the blessed story of the duocorn can only be understood by level 2 SCIgodians.
You my poor, poor, pain-filled lostboy who could gain so much love and support from your fellow SCIgodians, only have to agree to experience the glory of level 0 and level 1 to then be ready to receive the wondrous truth about the Duocorns.
Surely I can earn some dosh with that!

You get points for creativity.
All I can say is you manged to effectively highlight the point I wanted views on. What is a foolproof criterion to determine existence/nonexistence. Remember there are 4 things one has to possess the capability to affirm or deny:
1. Existence
2. Nonexistence
3. Physical
4. Nonphysical — Agent Smith

Yeah, but what do you think about the existence of SCIgod. I don't need to convince all of the people all of the time but can I convince you, for starters?

Why are you giving me points for creativity when I am merely one of SCIgods relays. Will you accept my relayed data that SCIgod exists and can choose to be physical or nonphysical. If you become a SCIgodian and accept his love then he will physically appear to you when you are in a sanctified dreamstate!
Surely I can easily equal the validity of the Scientologists and with enough storytelling (which of course I will set way in the past.) I can even do better than L Ron Hubbard.

At the instant of the creation of our Universe, SCIgod had to employ a portion of his essence. He wanted to give humans freewill so he called upon the TauBal. TauBal was good but its sanctified use caused a tiny glitch in the singularities that SCIgod triggered from nonexistence. Although this interaction was needed to create Orga and Mathaphys, error or flaw became possible. Subatomic impurity became a threat to the sacred merging of Orga and Mathaphys. If the human race does not understand this threat by becoming SCIgodian and thus be able to know and live their lives in accordance with the love and the purity of intent as offered by the glory that is SCIgod, then our entire species could be damned to an oblivion of awareness of self after death but with no sensory input whatsoever, for eternity.
Do you think I could bite into some of that Christian cash, if I went in that kind of direction?

Do you have any level of conviction that if an object manifests in human thought then it gains 'existence,' under any definitions of any 'labels' or words you choose, such as 'physical,' 'existence' etc

Do gods or unicorns gain 'physical' or 'metaphysical' existence 'FOR A PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR GROUPS PERSONAL REALITY,' because their own imagination has conjured such?

I just spent 10 mins conjuring creatures and fables, sorry, truths, in my head. I started easy, from the 'duocorn' (two horned flying horse) to the 'bistat,' (a humanoid which can be in any one of two states, whenever it chooses, male or female). I will employ them in my 'creation revelations' at some point.
I also started to commlink with the 'first one!' I have just received this signal, It's been traveling for 26 billion years of our perception of linear time. I have only received it today as 'that's just how the physics involved works,' only I can understand this!
I will write about the 'truth,' I have received regarding the origin of ourselves, the Universe and everything in my book which I will call (oh I don't know?........) 'SCIgod,'The truely truely true revelations.'

All must accept SCIgod or be doomed to "ignorance of the true purpose of your life and you will suffer oblivion after you die.'
If any of you wish to become a SCIgodian then I can give you the details of the monthly subscription and send you the first sacred .truthatxt file which will explain the beginning of your astounding journey towards the truth of who and what you are.
This first revelation is the truth about how Scigod first created the mathaphys and combined it with its second creation of truth, the orga. This sacred combination created the first humanoid, which SCIgod named 'godseed.' Scigod then created his companion wogodseed.

Anyway my main question remains. Are there any 'labels' or philosophical definitions or theistic tenets (classical or current) which for you, adds or assigns any aspect of existence to my above suggestions?
Would such labels or definitions help me fool and con, sorry, I meant, to convince some/most people of the truth of my revelation, if I drew/painted some pictures of godseed and his wife and the place they were created? Do you think that would help?
I have lots of things I want, sorry again, have been commanded to go forth and perform so I need the cash to start to flow in!

:up: You wiseguy you! :naughty:

Don't forget to sing along to my drifter's song as you read the OP!

What thread? — Hillary

I just told you! Its called:

The wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger' — universeness

oh boy the level in here is way to low to waste any more of my time — Nickolasgaspar

I see there are more god-based threads recently posted.
I thought you would have posted by now on
'The wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger'
The OP reads as something you might agree with.
I had a giggle at the thread reference as it was used by Bruce Lee at the start of 'Enter the Dragon.'
I quoted it for a point I was trying to make on a thread a while ago and I got told off by @180 Proof for using quotes from Bruce Lee on TPF :lol:

Oh well, I think he has gone back to digging into the dirt with his hind legs and flicking the dirt backward whilst snorting that Bullnose at my 'Universeness' handle. I am sure he will be back to charge at any red flag he thinks or contrives that I have displayed!

You came back with your silly argument "what crime do you prefer".
The answer to that is NONE. — Nickolasgaspar

You think that binary choice between two evils as the only choices available are not possible?
That's because you stick your ostrich-sized head in the sand and reject that human beings have had to face such dilemmas in REAL life. Its often called damned if you do damned if you don't. Your philosophical manipulations create your own self awarded license to handwave away such historical realities of the human condition which makes your philosophy completely compromised as it ignores inconvenient truths. Your philosophy is fake.

I guess...YOU ARE DONE on this topic too — Nickolasgaspar

you are done sir — Nickolasgaspar

Yeah run away gasbag, run and hide in one of your inFerior designs!

You won't going to answer.......aren't you? — Nickolasgaspar

I see you need help again. Are you trying to type: You're not going to answer are you?
How about an answer to my yes/no question sherlock!

They are irrelevant to the topic of discussion...but I guess you are not capable to understand it or your cognitive dissonance is trying to keep you away from it — Nickolasgaspar

You think you decide what's irrelevant to the topic of discussion and I will follow? :rofl:

Argumen from Ambiguity. Reflecting on the Historical implications of a event is History.
Reflecting on which act of crime is preferable is Garbage Philosophy and its off topic — Nickolasgaspar

Another BEPO bleat from the philosophy of the naive.

NOT INTERESTED in how many were killed and how they were — Nickolasgaspar

Who cares what interests a fake interlocuter like you?
and if you truly don't care about such then you are nasty.

his arguments are not better than yours. You both don't have arguments and you retreat in name calling and logical fallacies.
You never address or acknowledge the point made...you tap dance trying to appear as wiseguys... — Nickolasgaspar

And you just engage in barefaced dishonesty!

this is NOT a historical forum. We are not analyzing the implications and make projections on hypothetical scenarios.
This is a philosophical forum. We reflect on moral evaluations on ACTUAL acts. — Nickolasgaspar

Yeah Sherlock, human history has no relevance to philosophical musings. Another pearl of wisdom from the BEPO school of philosophy.

who told you that those are the only choices — Nickolasgaspar

Where is your evidence of the alternate choices available at the time BEPO?

Now I know you are reversing the bullet (and his linguistic bullet carries way more contempt than yours!) but don't lower yourself to that boring, pseudo-logical, imbecillic, BEPO dimwit talk of that moronic gasbag! A single hole in the bag suffices! Psjsssshshsh.... — Hillary

:rofl: Good advice but I don't mind the sparring with such a poor logician.
Perhaps behind all the rhetoric and snorting, he is actually learning! We can only hope :smile:

Here you are.
Would you have preferred the death of many more American soldiers and goodness knows how many Japanese civilians during a full invasion of the Japanese mainlands. The evidence from the time suggests that the Japanese would not have surrendered easily.
— universeness

You are making the act of killing civilians a matter of preference. You are using a hypothetical as a made up better evil.
We are judging the act ..and you are trying to justified with hypotheticals.
You sound like American cops who violate people's rights in order to keep them safe and .....free.
I can not believe someone can be that stupid...I think you are a troll — Nickolasgaspar

If you interpret my typing above as advocating for war crimes then you simply demonstrate your idiotic thinking. Can you not read the words
'and goodness knows how many Japanese civilians'
did this not give you a clue that I was suggesting that more Japanese civilians would have died due to a full invasion of their mainlands compared to the number that died due to the two bombs.
Remove your BEPO costume, climb out your pram, put your big boy pants on and join the grownups!

Try this for a hypothetical:
Approximately 20 million civilians were killed in the soviet union in WW2 due to CONVENTIONAL WAR.
The Japanese culture of the 1940's was based on fanatical loyalty to the emperor.
Its not a simplistic hypothetical that millions of Japanese civilians would have died its very very likely that such would have been the case. I answered your yes or no question Sherlock are you too scared to answer mine? Don't hide behind your HypAthetical label.

You just can't address the point in question. You are just incapable to have an honest conversation.
The point in question isn't whether ending a war is less preferable than war casualties.
We are exposing your immoral preference to end a war at all costs...even if it means to use weapons of mass destruction on civilians. Do you really stay behind your initial statement??????? (simple yes or no question) — Nickolasgaspar

Yes dimwit! When the choice is between the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and the death of millions of innocent civilians and hundreds of thousands of soldiers on both sides. Which is what would have happened if the allies had to end the war with Japan through the invasion of its mainland. In that horrific reality, the choice would be as terrible as a numbers game.
In such a horrific circumstance would you vote for more civilian deaths than those caused by the two bombs? Yes or no Sherlock? Show us all your moral genius!

not by committing a war crime and killing people who do not participate actively.
You keep making the same immoral claim....and you are unable to realize it lol

-"Some soldiers are not volunteers..."
-I don't care about this irrelevant stupid argument.....I am interested in your immoral act to justify the use a weapon of mass destruction on civilians(women, kids, infants, old people, special needs etc).
Are seriously going to stand behind this position....do you want to change it like you did with your first slip on statistics????? — Nickolasgaspar

Nothing I have typed is in support of war crimes you complete fool!
You just conflate and obfuscate because you are a dishonest person who holds up big shiny's to distract others

but to justify the mass killing of the population which is not taking part in the war you are just proving that you are not just irrational but an immoral thug too. — Nickolasgaspar

It's merely your skewed projections that conclude I am doing what you suggest when in fact its just your own dishonesty and imbecilic interpretations which are surfacing. Your approach to logical interpretation is as sinister as the likes of Donald Trump and his rag tag bag of fake news peddlers.

-I am just exposing your strawman — Nickolasgaspar

No, you are exposing your idiotic thinking.

You made an immoral and silly statement which also happens to be a war crime. — Nickolasgaspar

Based on what? Your dimwitted judgment.
You are very entertaining BEPO :rofl:

You made it clear that it is more preferable to bomb civilians than losing soldiers — Nickolasgaspar

Let me help you further with some of that brain fog you suffer from.
It's better to end a war as quickly as it can be ended. The ways open to you to achieve this are often very complicated and there are no 'good ways,' available. Extreme horrific terrible circumstances may only offer evil, extreme, horrific, terrible alternatives and the only choice you have is between horror and what you and your advisors have judged the 'lesser evil.'
Some soldiers are not volunteers they are conscripts, they did not choose to be soldiers, they are civilians in a uniform holding a gun. I wouldn't like to have you as the father of a soldier and a civilian.
Would you mourn your civilian dead son more than your conscripted soldier dead son?
Is that your logic?