Not if they are at different locations. — Janus

Is the position important? How else can there be two?

Not if they are at different locations. — Janus

I mean in a superposition. Their identities merge.

; I said two different descriptions could be of the same thing. — Janus

Yes, obviously.

I'd say two different things cannot be the same. — Janus

Two electrons are exactly the same.

As to your 'force/ mass x accelaration example" is that a claim of identity or proportionality — Janus

Identity. F=ma.

Other examples might be cases of different descriptions of the one thing — Janus

How can different descriptions be the same?

Like I said. The pilot wave is a real wave, pushing the particle determined along within it's bound. The particle always has a well determined position and momentum. No consciousness involved during collapse. The wave just shrinks simultaneously over it's extent. But feel free to think what you like. I have stated my case and retire in my cave.

Is that supposed to be a punishment? How lovely it would be to be just buried, get your food and drink, and just lay back... only the pile of excrements will gonna be smelly...

I'm dubious about his hidden-variables theory, but let's not get into that - it's a guaranteed de-railer. — Wayfarer

The hidden variables would destroy you whole view on the consciousness related view. It sweeps the relation between consciousness and QM under the carpet. So I can see why you not want to go into that... :smile:

I can imagine closing an infinitely small hole with a point, like adding one point closes an open interval. But throwing points in a bag...?

started to fall into question. That's why many of the first-generation of modern physicists — Wayfarer

Which is why Bohm posited non-local hidden variables. His talks with Krishnamurti show his involvement with Eastern philosophy which so emphasize the relation between the parts and the holes. In his book "Wholeness and Implicate Order" he gives us a glimpse in his fascinating holographic universe.

If we are talking about beginnings- nothings becoming something's, why does nothing auto become the universe? — Varde

There had to be only a simple entropically timeless 5D quantum spacetime to let it all happen. On this space, the only thing that can happen, is the emergence of two two closed real 4D mirror universes one of which is ours..

We have to raise almost impossibly deep levels of presupposition in our own thinking and imagination to the level of self-consciousness before we are able to achieve a critical awareness of all our realistic assumptions

"rajse impossibly deep levels", which means the levels don't exist. And if they could be raised, they should be raised to "the level of self-consciousness", which means they are a part of the self, which is the question, "before we are able to achieve a critical awareness of all our realistic assumptions", which means we must have a frame from which we criticize. From where did we get this frame? It resides in the same impossibly deep level.

To be the same is the logic of being the same. What else could it be, since it's not a physical relation? — Janus

But how can two things be the same logically then?

How can A=B if they are different? What's the logic behind it?

If A is the force, and B is the mass multiplied by the acceleration, how come they are the same?

For Aristotle dialectic was the pursuit of truth and rhetoric is the art of persuasion. They are opposites. — Jackson

To persuade you must know to speak the local dialect in your rhetoric.

that just because to be the same is a matter of logic, and there is no unnecessary logic; it is entailment all the way down. — Janus

To be the same needs the logic of being the same?

As far as fossil evidence is concerned, there is abundant fossil evidence to validate in broad outlines evolutionary history — Wayfarer

To which ID-ers say that the evidence was designed.

Points come in sizes?

Those are your personal, impressionistic locutions. Real analysis doesn't have such terminology. — TonesInDeepFreeze

You got some way of putting it, I have to admit! "Impressionistic locutions. Sounds like a new art form.

The philosophical concept of "Dialectics" originated with the Greeks around 2500 years ago with an Anatolian/Ephesian philosopher named, Heraclitus. It was Heraclitus' paradoxical proverbs-("A road going up and a road going down are one and the same" & "War is the Father of all things"), that helped to influence a popular movement within Greek philosophy for many centuries. However, with regard to the examination, analysis and teaching of history and economics, the ancient Greeks did not incorporate dialectics. For the Greeks, dialectics was both rhetorical, as well as philosophical, though had no relation to the historical or the economic.

Marx took Greek and Hegelian Dialectics and applied it to Economic Theory. He coined a phrase that remains synonymous with Marxism...."Class struggle".

Your question suggests that you are not familiar with the basics of the subject. — TonesInDeepFreeze

How many points do I have to throw in the bag to fill it?

When he described coding all facts in the universe I quietly arose from my seat and left the theater. :cool: — jgill

I would have quietly followed you. To watch that movie in the theater next to it and drink some beers. Maybe we stumbled on some truly interesting stuff. In the complex plane... :cool:

You can throw as many points in the bag as you like. It's never filled.

>. By definition, every real number is a point — TonesInDeepFreeze

But how you glue two points together. How can you construct a continuum with points as building blocks?

Ah! Found it!

"In modal logic, the necessity of identity is the thesis that for every object x and object y, if x and y are the same object, it is necessary that x and y are the same object."

Well, never mind indeed!

To be the same it's necessary that they are the same. Weieieird....

logical necessities of identity, — javra

What are those?

The delayed-choice quantum erasure as just one example which I'm personally astounded by. — javra

That's not that difficult to understand. It involves backward collapse. The present collapsing the wave in the past. Example: a double slit. If the wave has passed through two slits and arrives at a large distance screen, you can alter the state by closing a slit.

Secondly, your reply doesn't seem to address the logical necessities of identity, of noncontradiction, and of the excluded middle — javra

The law of the excluded middle stems from physics.

Seems like a bit of a non sequitur ... Can you either cite references of this being "the magical teleportation of quantum particles which they willfully enact" or else independently provide rational evidence for the same? — javra

The wavefunction can be seen as made uo from hidden variablds. Bohm was called names because of this in his time (foolish Trotskyan, mindless child, etc.). One can even say its the make up of space itself. The wavefunction aids the particle to explore space around it instantaneously. To find other particles. To interact, to love, to hate. Quite a purpose...

A Chimera (from Greek mythology) can magically teleport itself or it cannot. — javra

A quantum particle hops non-locally between different position, within the bounds of the wavefunction.

The diagonal argument is constructive and intuitionistically valid — TonesInDeepFreeze

The argument only goes to show that the continuum cannot be broken up in points. Leading to confused notions of infinitesimals or differentials.

BTW, brother Smith is not ad confused as you suggest. His contribution is a welcome addition to the body of philosophy. He makes the face of philosophy laugh.

Who that then? Mr. Clark? Nu nu, cant be. Mr. Clark said that I said that he said I might be raight actually. I like sushi but mi mouth cant take too hot. Though Robbie from first will deny that.

It's just that she can't reflect about it.
9mOptions — Olivier5

She can act though. The jealous little lady once faked a painful hindleg when I paid attention to another dog. She just dropped to the ground, crying like a little baby. She got mad at me when tried to help her! Poor thing... What a bitch!

Not external. — Jackson

What does the program say. Where in the brain it is situated? If there is such an internal program, how dies it apply to the process in the brain? From the inside or from the outside is both separated.

What is the program in the process, if any? What's the program in a fire? What says the program? What are the steps in the program?

Then where is the external program in our brain?

but if it can't be tested — T Clark

Of course. But you can test to confirm also.

Which I do not agree with. — Jackson

It's not a matter of opinion.

The program is the process — Jackson

The process is not a program. A program resides external to the process. That's exactly my point.

And yet, something does. A physical system, the body, the brain, underpins conscious thought — Olivier5

But there is no program guiding it.

The way the brain functions. It's a finite object. — Jackson

Yes, but where is the program directing the process?