Ich und Du, Martin Buber (1923)

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/782810 Any thoughts on this contribution to thread from The Lounge posted back in March titled, "Cinderella Problem. Anyone understand it?" My interpretation and take on this is coming from a clean slate as this was the first I have heard about the problem ...This view or twist I add to the problem involves not waking up on Wednesday at all, death is the outcome..but is it the only outcome?...The other outcome that WILL ALSO occur in this experiment is of a fair coin toss...two definite outcomes a H or T result and never waking up again.
What if she was never suppose to wake up again after either just Monday (Heads on fair flip) or Monday and Tueday (tails on fair flip) How lucky would she be to get two days instead of one to be alive for one more moment? What if she couldn't wait to die?....unlucky gal.

:grin:

I agree with Tired Thinker, in the way that I am not fully seeing the problem or even "a" problem at all.

Lets say...There is no problem....Okay. Why? Because Sleeping Beauty (referred to as "her" in the following comments) volunteered...(per youtube video that was linked in OP proposing the problem)

What if only 1 option really exists but it just might occur twice sometimes?

Perhaps this is less about the numbers and more about a possible pattern in the surety of the answer, despite the outcome and if her intuition is aligned with her faith (if any) and the answer she gives.I am not sure exactly, this is just my thoughts after the first minute after watching the linked video (I stopped at the reaction of the guy in the video and was uninterested in it to be honest) about a minute in.)

Maybe the test is being done and is for measuring the subjects prediction over (or instead of) the literal probability of the odds... with faith being a component of the subjects answer and if the answers are true or false literally by guessing the result or outcome because of luck, chance or intuitively...

What If she is correct in her answer (eg.coin was flipped and landed on heads was heads and she guessed high probability on Monday making her correct on the flip and the way she answered was with excitement, calmness and acceptance...I then ponder the options further myself, asking questions like Did her faith influence her answer and did the answer come intuitively or did it come with doubt? (for example coin lands on heads, she guess low probability that it was heads therefore she was wrong about the flip because of self pity or other ways she might see her self, self doubt... eg. "no way I am that lucky" "no chance i am right" "I never guess the right answer" that would be reasonable for her to have the wrong answer to the question because without really feeling the answer it was less influenced by intuition if any...

Can there be any "hope" in the answer without the backing of faith? Is she RIGHT TO BE WRONG? And does that align with the actual outcome of the toss? Are there any patterns? Can she feel Tuesday coming or not? Hope without faith, is that relevant to the answer even if her intuition isnt the force behind the answer? Can you tell if it was? How strong of an influence does faith have on the surety of self in the answer? Is she right for doubting her self and answer perhaps? Is the problem somewhere in or about faith being questioned at all?

Why would this be a problem?

-Are the subjects with the right answer (guessing if the coin toss was heads or tails and guessing correctly) actually wrong for having the RIGHT answer?
-Or is the wrong answer in having to prove everything she is doing is right?
-Is there a problem with answers that are seemingly only stemming from faith, intuition? neither?
-Is it doubt?
-Is she wrong or right to doubt her self?
-Is she right or wrong to be so sure in her answer?
-Is it right or wrong to be either but the problem is volunteering in the first place?
-Is the problem volunteering with and having something to lose despite feelings of subject?
-Are they wrong to feel right in this? or vice versa.....

Also, how much does she believe she is going to never wake up again, is that answer a display of her hope in that? Is she showing signs of attitudes, mindset, behavior and appearance that align with the answer given, when right and when wrong literally?? (sleeping beauty meaning or whomever is the subject of study) excited or calm nervous or scared? and if the results of the flip align or follow through with the intuition, faith, display of emotion are involved in the answer maybe could that be shown in this specific study, by using a coin with 2 sides that can portray the reality of just 1 option that happens to presents itself twice?... 5050 odds that they (subject being studied and asked the question) are actually correct in the flip and the surety in the correctness of the answer...when right and when wrong....

What if its not about necessarily about the numbers but how the numbers present and align with personal feeling with or without intuition being surely relied on or of faith or belief or lack there of, these are what might tweak the possibilities of odds, not outcomes.....the attitude and tone of the answer is worth observing along with the literal 2 options 50/50 chances...the odds are HOW THE ANSWER AND , the guess, the surety in the guess and the actual turnout relate or if they do or if a pattern presents itself...

I may ask if it is possible to feel it coming? It being aware of being close to death...knowing it is happening soon? Never waking up ever again? Also I consider this.... if volunteering for this experiment is a problem...meaning one wanted to partake in the study.. then it isnt unreasonable to consider/keep in mind that those applying to do this study/volunteering might be suicidal? do they have anything to lose or feel that way (that they have nothing to lose, when that is not true or when it is...)? How can one feel that? Is the fact I just asked that last question the problem?

It feels right asking these questions even though they could all be the wrong... I am just thinking as if I were there, being studied and studying.... This is the first time I have seen this problem, I thought it was interesting.

How much are we able to improve from the mistakes we make? Mistakes can highlight capability. Mistakes can go unmentioned, be erased, redone...they can be re-written, overridden, and forgot about the moment one realizes the error before anyone else notices... Mistakes are made to remind. Mistakes are made to prepare.

1... instead of how many mistakes, how big of a mistake will teach X?

Why do we make mistakes? Maybe we never learn.

I do apologize, you are right I do appear to be attacking you not rightfully but not unreasonably. I do think I would've judged you differently if you used the climate change example instead, I dont think I would have responded to this post at all actually if you used that. Which makes me glad that I "attacked" your comment because it brought out something in me. I am reminded that I have to work on formatting my ideas and thoughts in a better way to be understood, if that is of course what I want to come from those ideas. I'm not here for that yet, i just wanted to question you personally Sir2u.
What I wrote was directed towards the person who might believe in that example you used...I think what you choose to be picked up by others says something about you. But you are right, I should be careful when judging, and of course...I can only judge so much through a forum and a single comment on the forum at that. (obviously you are more and represent way more than what you express in a single comment) I did stray off topic, but because I was moved by your contributions. I am not apologizing for attacking, because I meant to attack whomever stands by your example...I am sorry for losing you in my attack, and will work on finding better ways to address people who post triggering examples. I didnt have anything really useful or worthy enough to post before reading for comment, and clearly I need to work on formatting my thoughts better... I am aware. But my thinking stemmed from a feeling I felt after reading your contribution to the OP and I think that means something. I am learning, thanks for responding.

is anyone worried or just curious for their own sake?

where did you originally post? or where did you mean to post this?

We should try in some cases, for example "People should not vote for presidents like Trump". But trying and succeeding are again two different things. — Sir2u

If you force things like that, you will miss out or make it more difficult being able to weed out people like you mentioned in your interesting, specific, and overrated example of "people who want to vote for Trump" [get over it already]...if you want to vote for trump and wear his merchandise and put stickers and flags hanging off your belongings and being, that is one thing, if you need to vote for him is another and that is just the surface of a problem started long ago.

Want>Need i think.....want vs need, need is a force so how do you need things you dont know what you even want?........

Force is a word ive been honing in on and mentioning a lot when it comes to nature and the earths natural occurrences everyday..its not something to be measured or scaled but noticed and noted. I think forces can be dangerous and unjust. Avoidable or a prevention to forces should be to take serious. With force comes a natural balance or order to maintain, to be determined and settled ultimately within nature and timing, good or bad both equally.

...force and initiation are different, soooo close though but close doesnt cut it here...you cant just round up, like you can in school in math and make it even!!! Just a decimal place, no biggie. That sounds convenient and depends on who is asking. Math is numbers, numbers are words and words are forces, forces are everything, then where is the balance? Oh yeah, right here...

Nature doesnt read and or listen to words, it is and it is just, and so unbothered by any forces an individual may possibly bring. People are predictable, when their emotions are rightly accounted for along with their beliefs and whereabouts/current living status/mindset then we have power to not force but show and guide and initiate without FORCE.
A negative force, will come to an equilibrium by the balance of natures laws and what is naturally supposed to happen, justice will be served and there is no judge, jury, miracle that can undo it.

I understand cause and effect could together be a force and they together lead to the same end, on good or worse terms.

Do your best today, you will still die with a great imagination.....but in your case,Sir2u, from the example you CHOSE and seem to direct focus' on is what is expected of you and those very people.. and that issue you seem to think is important here...isnt a problem. Its the forces you pretend people NEED to take to positively make a change in politics because its a topic you WANT to get into.
Again..wants>needs. i didnt want to know the political stance you take, but fortunately i was able to notice your emotions through your comment about peoples emotions you have a problem with....your emotions arent far from your beliefs, you said so. AND EVEN IF you dont believe in your example, you just used it because you find it relatable and relevant, well in that case, I learn a lot more...you, Sir2u, are making my point i am realizing as i tend to ramble, i really thank you. I am writing all this for me by the way, no one else, as these are my immediate thoughts upon reading the thread and I'm actively dissecting my own emotions and beliefs, and I know nothing except everything I need to know right now.

Knowing those specific people (and now knowing you a little better from your tone and choices of examples with little insight and seeming very sure of your thoughts on forcing people)
.......Knowing these things, as triggering as they really are [biting my tongue,even though im typing...i write how i speak...(a little about me since you shared so much lol)

...Knowing those people who vote like its nothing (people that should be forced because of a political opinion) lol also (trump wasnt the only joke of an option but was probably the most funny/entertaining --joke of a position, what better person to fill the role than a comedian which he is...lol) i digress......
Same goes for people having babies with multiple partners giving life like its nothing....they are better targets, or to put it not as harshly, they are unnecessary necessities. (is that less harsh? oh well) Nobodies that make you somebody. Their emotions are what matter and if people knew themselves others wouldnt have to worry about forcing others to do things like vote...thats insane. And not a worry i feel of importance..force is bigger than this example its not controllable.

...the better you can target these individuals, the easier it could be to force or better yet SEE the problem that is PEOPLE "thinking" they are powerful enough to FORCE a large group of others, is in fact, A FORCE, especially when you have no one or bad references to vouch for you. Credibility, likeability, and other qualities may help the force seem natural and needed. Force is sometimes disguised as suggestions especially with dominating technology, which should not be looked at in a negative light when distinguishing educated people... education as a department is a force..in a way. But its structure, which i think is somewhat important, and another topic of grand discussion....

Force is unintentional sometimes, that i find more interesting.

How do you go from feeling a feeling to being detained and forced medication.....something happened in between to get to that point.

of course they will sit her down and talk through concerns, they soon may realize there are bigger issues hidden below the surface and this outburst was a sign for help....plus they need to figure out which medication is best for her and whoever is paying for that help so obviously they will start to figure her out one way or another. She doesnt know the answer, shes the only person that should.....how can she learn then? Has she always been slow at communicating feelings and explaining her actions? No rush if so.........but lessons to be learned. Stay out of trouble, especially trouble that your own body cant seem to handle? Self awareness, lack there of. Know your limits, know your boundaries, and if you cant act right then you better be able to explain eventually. Or dont. And be held against your will taking forced meds? It doesnt happen like that. To get to the point of being put on meds, takes more than a few unjustified encounters with people who were concerned. Meds might not even help. Maybe they will? Whats the problem? You can be delusional without acting out. Explain yourself or someone will do it for you. Whats worse?

What is ones truth if no one asks? Is that learnable? I am no teacher...

Then who is asking? Why?

You could be fully aware without having to spread or share any knowings. Are you aware or becoming aware? Is it happening simultaneously? Are you always becoming aware of new things or can you turn it on and off? or both? Are you aware of when you are being unaware? I feel like an "ultimate awareness" could be reached after self awareness is mastered but the end of awareness is unforeseen...certain attributes can make you better at being aware of things, surroundings, scenarios or being able to become aware of certain or even specific things but ultimate awareness.. its like using the body and mind together to learn about its own self.

Awareness could also be a reminder of a truth one has known to be true all along, despite all possible outcomes and oppositions faced. Like one can "spread awareness" while being unaware at the same time. Examples: surroundings arent fit to be receptive of information, dangerous conditions, bad audience "read the room", a person could have a hidden agenda maybe while promoting a promising message thinking people cant see through the lies etc. The "Ultimate Awareness" one can have doesnt have anything to do with a whole truth, I dont think... because it is up to the aware person to let the unaware know how aware they really are. Or however they want to be perceived. Ultimate awareness requires knowing who is listening and who is just talking or asking things to just say something because they want to engage in general, despite the topic of discussion, despite the answers...unaware people sometimes dont know what they want to hear. Or they ask the person that will give them the answer they know they will give and want to hear. Thats awareness but If they want to hear one answer, one they already know to be true to them and arent willing to see things differently, then why even ask? Maybe thats the point. No stupid questions, i guess.

But really...Who asked? Whose truth do you seek and who are you to them? That says a lot. Ask yourself what it may take to be reach "ultimate awareness"...and if you think you are capable of getting there, that is it. I dont think you could find a better answer, are you really looking for whole truth? Why do you deserve any sort of truth, when you dont even know who to ask? When you dont know who to ask, the truth might not then be true at all because of such unawareness of the self who is seeking answers to baseless questions they didnt even want to know answers to in the first place. Make it make sense...for you with the help of others whoms answers actually matter to you, and with good reason as to why they should.... Or accept your own answer. Ask yourself and accept it. Or dont and wait for the answer that fits best in your reality. Thats valid enough.


At least look at this as spreading awareness about how people are so unaware of who they are and who they are seeking answers from, yet somehow thinking they can handle or are deserving of any sort of truth? If you dont have self awareness you are lucky to end up with a psychiatrist. If you arent capable of putting the trust in anyones hands to tell you what is best for YOU when YOU should know the answer or how to get to the answer....Being that unaware that you cant explain what you are doing and why you do what you do is dangerous, and there are cases like the one presented above in the OP where the woman needs to be institutionalized and deserves to be heard but can she explain herself and feelings are they reasonable? Who is she asking to validate? Is she helpless? I think not...she didnt get put there automatically. It takes $$$, family, whatever, someone is taking your burden of life and adding it to their own burdens, trying to help the best they know but you can only help yourself, we know this already and this is a "What if" scenario that takes more context and details to make it make sense...We only know what YOU tell us. Who are you? Why do we know you more than you? That shouldnt be true, you can make it not true. Also, I am delusional.

Are they engaging in any way or trying to get into contact with you? How do you know they are obsessed?