We lack evidence to assert that our awareness of anything is truly awareness of anything with 100% certainty. — Echogem222

here we go, good stuff

But why do we have faith in anything if our faith in logic is correct? If we began with uncertainty, not knowing anything or even nothing at all (requiring faith), we could not have reached this point if we had free will. — Echogem222

keep going

Therefore, we must have been influenced to learn things not by our own will, in other words, to gain faith in things without free will. — Echogem222

hmmm close this needs more thought still fine no problems yet

So, how then would we conclude that it makes sense that we have free will when we didn't initially use free will to learn anything? It doesn't. The logic does not follow such a possibility — Echogem222

interested im listening and more....

In conclusion, for those who have faith in logic, my argument is that Socrates did not know that he knew nothing; he had faith that he knew nothing, whereas I have faith that he actually knew at least some things. — Echogem222

Make this conclusion stronger its important You have good stuff here it ought to go somewhere make the reach set that scope with purpose in mind perhaps even though your passion is evident to me

↪Echogem222
Once again I think you're misreading the intent and going down a path no one else is taking. — Philosophim

dead wrong would you like to be surprised or bothered?

I was kinda getting at this here with the delight of, Vaskane....https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/887319

While im at it, I couldnt help but notice that even though faith is heavily discussed here you used an interesting angle...using Socrates, and free will is smart and to slide in these questions about faith and certainty without religion. I am with you here...but not important now. Just figured id mention and its good to know that the title could have an impact...when I was in the thread linked above, I think tired thinker posted it, "Types of faith" a few days ago I was thinking, wondering about this, I was trying to think of how I could defend that thread to not go into Philosophy of Religion but i guess it makes sense and should remain there in this case because. But im looking out for ways to do that...we will see what happens. Still feeling suspicious about that for some reason, i like it.

↪Echogem222
Once again I think you're misreading the intent and going down a path no one else is taking. — Philosophim

Its right where it needs to be, at least you acknowledge a path at all.

:up: Some great references you included here! Cool

But many and most are too focused on survival. — Chet Hawkins

"too focused" I wouldnt even give that great effort and act "to focus" any credit where it isnt happening Focus is a skill one can polish to their liking...if they are too focused on surviving, I dont think that is really whats happening ...it is but no... its just what we all are doing. It just appears and also actually IS harder for some and vice versa. To say one should ought to want to put up a fight for others to be alive and tired is wild to me and I question if its any better than to let them be dead and well.

GONE but NEVER FORGOTTEN! Until it just is....

But they are out there in the world contributing to their passion when someone will DEIGN to let them in — Chet Hawkins

the "they" you are referring to is only the strong ones, you happen to see and believe exist and you are right they do..... but what about the others?

It has to appeal to its own internal and rarified structures to maintain credibility — Chet Hawkins

"It" (what) does that? It does nothing, people do things and are things and can be them. That happens though, not my problem.

Rather than 'boring', I would opt for well-integrated and well-adjusted. — Vera Mont

You are right, I wish I saw this sooner. Learning from it is good for me, though.

Funny I saw this right after saying "boring" to chet, ha! I mean no harm in it, but hmmm...The dreams of non-dreamers could be also interesting to compare to those dreaming dreamers...thoughts to wonder about.

.. REALLY! — Chet Hawkins

trust me i know it, im with you here

I mean of course, in general, after. They became lauded as inventors and then admitted humbly perhaps that the inspiration came to them in a dream. — Chet Hawkins

Boring haha Im kidding. I got ya, I see ya, I feel ya! A little dream is all ya need. Good night :yawn:

Are you willing to prove your credibility? Are you willing to lose time in order to gain something greater than knowledge, feels that come with that cant be felt without time being a factor, restraint, or issue, or even thought about... momentarily non-existent. Lose time, find something else. What are you willing to lose time for understanding, if work makes this task impossible, it isnt the time for gaining this understanding, its not the time yet. When you find yourself engaging in something, where you lose track of time...that is what im talking about. That is a potential gold mine...keep following that thing, whatever it is. We know this though.

For me its people.......understanding people. I discredit my own self, but I would love to prove my credibility and can. If you could only more then see, watch!

Credibility in craft and works is tied directly to authority and even worse, 'public opinion'. Philosophy in general is not something that is credible at all in either sense. It has to appeal to its own internal and rarified structures to maintain credibility and EVEN THAT is still authority based. So, I fail to agree with your point here. — Chet Hawkins

We all have a story, I wish all were credible as a source for your own.
That is why even the strangest of people should be credible in their own word, a source for themselves.

I am glad you mention authority too, its powerful I am not sure my brain is ready for my ramblings on power, authority freedom, and morality is tied all up in it, everywhere. "morality is EVERYTHING" you claimed and said before, I'm pretty sure. But i am not sure about that either, not important now.

When you "fail" to see my "non" point I'm fine with that, it is an honest and understandably common mistake. Not even a mistake, it almost feels natural sometimes. But I am not fine with the expressions you shared that put me, and possibly others in bad lighting (myproblem) for the hell of it...I dont want that happening for some odd reason (fixing it now)

I have many points I could make and it starts with the fact credibility is being dismissed it seems in the quote i referred to above. But the issue lies within you, I think. Is it an issue? Dont answer that here, you know the answer. You have a problem and is it a trust issue of sorts perhaps, with taking words or orders from? Authority? Others? How can you be so bothered.

But now i am thinking and that actually makes sense. If you dont clash well with authority perhaps its not CREDIBILITY itself. Yet why you use your feelings and words to share how valueless you feel about it ("whats it?" ask urself) Is that how it lives in your every day life, how its used, how you are familiar with its use? You portray your word, it in your every day life or experiences. The life you lead, steps you take, choices made. In your words, to me, it seems you are misplacing judgements on those in these positions that can have power and use it wrongly when they ARE NOT rightful deserving, fit, or reliable to be doing so...maybe they are just bad people. Its not ALL BAD though, cmon...Chet, ITS good.

Those who are (and arent) credible whether its in and of philosophy, of the public opinion, of authority why is "claiming" to be credible wrong??? Is it wrong for you, maybe but it is not wrong for there own sakes! I think your issue is an example of why it is to be considered like I originally intended... when its my point you are seeking to "understand" (i have my doubts thats intended by you from what is given back to me, feedback*) FEEDBACK is why public opinion, authority, and philosophy is credible, whos word are you trusting to accept and learn from?

YOU ARE ONLY AS VALUABLE AS YOUR SOURCE, or your friends/references who can vouch....
how credible is the source where your own words come from and to, then onto these nicely pained pictures from the written feelings to words built on pages you love to display to people, centerfold, more than the headlines or is that all you have to offer? Numbers are they just words? One Two Three...
Words are bigger than what they do or are...it is about who is placing value.

So, by being able to see design capabilities in that vision, requires intelligence, which is the knowledge one has to be able to see a design from the vision but not just see it, be able to produce or recreate the design based on approved plans (fully defined by constraints, tolerances and required dimensions, scales, measurements to be recreated accurately and communicating clearly in real life with credentials to back up your ability to work on the design.) — Kizzy

I disagree that credentials are in any way wise, except that we then know the person has been through a peer vetting process. The reverse is not wise. That is denying someone can contribute who has no credentials. The acquiring of credentials is an orderly cowardice thing. It is precisely the non-ordered types that tend to be the BEST inventors and dreamers. Gee, I wonder why? Nod's as good as a wink to a blind man, eh? — Chet Hawkins

I didnt mean the papers chet, I meant the credibility. Thats my bad. Credible in your craft, the experience, the work and projects completed, the relevance to the project, the power?? Thats a problem with who is hiring who to complete and build their visions or dreams or design..Thats just $$$ talk. The order of how one acquires is also in that boat I believe, but while the order is sure cowardice, i agree to what you mean. But I disagree when you say, "It is precisely the non-ordered types that tend to be the BEST inventors and dreamers." Where are they then? Inventors and dreamers....dreamers can be skilled in other ways their baseless visions can be included...but yeah I did not mean credentials in ANY way BUT when they are rightfully attained, is that all it takes for "we" to approve? A peer vetted "process"? (is that not an order, too?) What about just getting to know people, seeing the work, agreeing to work together, a decision is made...Is it not the credentials, fake earned or neither, and also about the money? Credentials can be faked, masked, covered...easily. That surely is not right by me? Its cowardice for BOTH parties... The proof, the portfolio, the past successes that EXIST from those with credentials they rightfully earned and deserve and WHAT comes with that is also accountability if things go wrong. Willing to stamp your name on the plans, or just willing to deal with the consequences that are weakly given to them. Thats what is cowardice, the punishments are designed in favor of them to still win, if they follow "order" I dont like followers......fines are given and paid off willingly, they can afford a loss for their short term gain...blah blah of course it isnt WISE to only seek the those with JUST good credentials...you could have great credentials on paper, its not my problem who isnt getting the chance to contribute...Where are these people? I am not talking buiness money bs...its simpler. Is technology advancing or evolving?

Daydreaming is interesting in this somehow, ill be back. **I wonder if we in the act of Daydreaming vs in the act of Dreaming during sleep are multitasking differently? Similarly? Is that worth a mention or consideration in terms of consciousness and experiences had that one is aware of....memories? images? I wonder also, if the way we daydream may help/worsen the way we dream or vice versa?

There are myriad accounts of inventors and others that admit freely that 'it came to me in a dream' and this does not even forbid inclusion of simple imagination, ... daydreaming. — Chet Hawkins

Yeah and? How did they earn the title of "inventor" was that before or after the "dreams"?

In particular, it may involve intuitive understanding. — Jack Cummins

Hmmm...

Dreams are objectively real. Their content does not always instantiate itself into the external world. But many dreams do become real. That is how advancement in technology happens. Architecture, ideas, etc all start only as dreams. The nature of that progression dream->instantiation->real external truth is amazing to admit and focus on. — Chet Hawkins

:up: I like this but I feel I could add something more to this. I think there is more to keep in mind or consider before getting here...i believe. But its not wrong at all, its right.

When you mention advancements in technology, architecture, ideas in that progression, where could one start or begin to understand this? How can you? Its interesting and impressive and worthy of acknowledgment that you chose to word this sentence in the way you did though. Thats more what I am wondering, how you figure that anything about the nature of about this progression only takes "admitting" **(accepting) (satisfaction)???** and focus and will to be amused or amazed? Is that natural to try and force that understanding into someone? Beat the solider into someone is work, chet! Good work, keep it shining.

The nature of that progression is for who to learn and who to teach? Who to make things happen from these "dreams" you mention...I like to use "visions" instead of dreams in my notes on this progression, and use slightly different stances. Its not about bridging gaps but finding and building new routes...that is always happening and going to happen, I believe. But thats my problem and I am willing to solve it with what I claim to be real knowledge not necessarily linked to any belief system but reason to believe and experience I can explain to an end that is real...

Chet when you said " That is how advancement in technology happens." I am just making sure you considered and confirm that its not that is HOW it happens but what happens and what is to be true is contained within our understanding of the world and the real external truth is bigger and more certain and this, our current scope is limited, until it isnt....Until its what is real?

Sure it's possible to bring into existence a "design" of something, anything one imagines to be "a good idea" or invention or dream or patent idea whatever... but when there is an absence of evidence/intention/dedication to the process of design within the visionaries original idea, it might make the how important to keep in mind...

How to get intelligent design from unintelligent visions?....And why is it the design or designer in question of any concern? It seems maybe perhaps one believes in intelligent design, but i think those same people could confuse the reality of the design and origin of the vision. It is important to regard the how and why you should go about the design, which isnt always the final product or overall vision, as the vision could evolve based on how it is consumed in reality....The design is perfected through many tests and trials, prototypes, different versions/adaptations stemming from a vision, that was maybe founded on a baseless idea.... but through and with an intelligent design, it is possible to start manipulating the very function and overall purpose of a vision (intentions and functions, and abilities and usage could change over time, as people go through phases and so does standards and environments.)

So, by being able to see design capabilities in that vision, requires intelligence, which is the knowledge one has to be able to see a design from the vision but not just see it, be able to produce or recreate the design based on approved plans (fully defined by constraints, tolerances and required dimensions, scales, measurements to be recreated accurately and communicating clearly in real life with credentials to back up your ability to work on the design.)

But if I do find myself believing in some God, it will be through reason, not faith. — QuixoticAgnostic

There is only one type of faith, blind, faith works via believing, not knowing — Vaskane

Should the reason to believe ought to be verified? What if that reason is "wrong" but that is all they know...until made "right" or corrected. What if no one questions a "wrong" reason to believe? "Dont stop believin''" Hmmm...is faith something that is stop and go? Can you just stop believing? I think yes. Can you just remember to start believing? Should faith be questioned at all? Especially should faith be questioned against or for what it is you KNOW? and Why? Who is bothered enough to question faith without wanting to KNOW more? Was faith born from the blind or to the blind or in the blind? With it? A "knowing" might be involved when it is/can be measurable. Through hope, perhaps?...Ones hope in a claim could be questioned or observed further, and verified as credible or not before doing anything further via believing....but knowing THAT alone now is no longer of the blind believer, but from knowing they are that....

Can you have or hold morals that may not ever be seen in action? perhaps morals are justification itself.
what if, intentions are a/the gateway to potentially lead to one participating in questionable behavior and ,by justifying ONLY planned actions as they play the role as "the excuse to act". despite the outcome that was bound to occur...no matter what, for better or worse.
***an excuse to act = tricking the brain into planning a justified NOT BELIEF, but idea with reason TO MAKE BELIEF through others perceptions without the true action explained aloud, despite the facts of matter being known or knowable, only interally between self and mind, know the true reason/s for hiding a "truth" thanks to privacy within us and our wants needs goals desires that we allow permit tolerate accept and all its opposites and vice versas equally considered and accounted for....the space for thought is and is found when and in using the brain silently within the minds limits, which the self can control as boundaries contrstraints etc for what it really is thats happening..e.g. daydreaming, multitasking, texting and in a meeting on zoom, other examples exist

*reason=goal or desire? i think they exists with and without a belief system but im looking at linking goals or desires to ones purpose in life, the one that exists despite knowing it. Though knowable. Morals are justification itself.

you can have intention without a goal, i say yes..but can you without a desire? i say no..for now at least. Your intent though doesnt need its own purpose, because it doesnt mean you act on it according to how you imagined you would act...Once the act occurs, your purpose could be repurposed successfully... but how much it was planned, thought of or out vs imagined or believed .[ex. my intention was/is to have fun tonight-8.20.23 522pm]] AND without parameters or constraints OR GOALS, intentions can change in decision making moments through that experience of choosing to act/acting on those intentions and how what you imagined vs what reality played out was very different

Intentions show that the individual has thought.
What happens when you bypass your intentions? COULD INTENSIONS COULD BE THE BRAIN TRICKING ITS SELF OR BODY? WHETHER WE ACT ON THEM OR NOT..PLANNED OR RANDOM, COMPLETE ATTEMPT AND FAIL, OR SUCCESS OF WHAT FROM ACTION IS JUSTIFIED? IS IT STILL WITHOUT ACTION?

It is belief + authority. — Leontiskos

what about this:
belief + expectations + authority ....combined with what else though?. I don't know why were adding or using the plus sign, its not worth adding these words up, why do we need or think an equation will be able to find that balance? But okay lets add these words, with all random values from all different valued random minds and solve!!! I am down but not here on the forum to solve anything. I come because I dont have many people in my realm who I am able to talk about these deep philosophical thinkings that I had before I even knew the word "philosophy" even meant, literally the word was not known by definition or by example or influence personally until I took a required general philosophy class in college at the age of 22..but i was reminded that my thoughts were the same as yours but I didnt know I was able to THINK ABOUT MY THINKING let alone LEARN from thinking thoughts. Just being, I was. Now, its been 7 years and I am proud of where I took this self taught journey and more importantly, WHY? I could be doing MANY other things and focusing on a goal...but the thing is, I just went where it made sense for me...I was able to now learn differently and in an environment and realm where i am myself shocked at my deep interests. I have better things to do, i know for a fact thats true..but here I am. I impressed myself and its impressive how much i have learned now that I know how to learn...and with passion and interest and will its not learning anymore its a knowing and what you learn is up to you and from others subjective stances that will help you learn how to learn, if thats what you want. Do what you want....I am, right now...I am getting off track, my apologies...I am LEARNING! Im on track actually, but my pace is just off, or not even off...im just differently moving along it....Where was I? OH YES, the math! Lets add together or shall i say combine the meanings behinda belief + an authority + an EXPECTATION/s if thats what we must do but it might not be worth the time....

Whatever the answer is I believe, whether if or how it that exists or it that can exist, the moral objective final truth I believe can differ or maybe not be constrained or bound to or from the group of objective truths. Its a balance of answers that will help this group find its perfect place...A balanced equation isnt the answer but it may really just be the base to get there but its important to know how material might always effect each equation every time its repeated... each load or force or weight or value that were put unto the ground which we take our stances...it cant be done with one standard formula, but these equations can be solved to bring new answers despite using the same "formula" and I think that is because of timing and the unreliability of human error in general.

When trying to balance or come to conclusive answers, it seems that objective moral truths may not be truths...what if its just the TRUTH? What if its a place? It can be denied and also too far to reach but eventually TIME will take us and maybe then reached by those better fit for it. though if authority is misused, misplaced it overrides or over powers the entire point...and that in itself is a way to figure out the limits were willing to take to get there...

I want to believe this place exists, but it I cant be too bothered.

I am moved though. It might be very far down a long road or is it that we are on this road but keep missing the turn or getting lost or incapable of getting there physically....mentally, emotionally? I think at least the first two should both arrive together with a real self awareness that is proven with you as the source, be credible, be that reference! Or dont...maybe thats the better option. We will never get to an answer without your word being able to be taken for what it REALLY is. I think words arent even necessary really because sometimes they dont add up..It dont add up, doesnt make sense for some reason...And one, with the life they lead will reveal everything needed to know, no words needed, and now is rightfully judged and questioned and with a chance to make a proof become an example.... of why it isnt about adding up anything...

As humans with such specific needs, can we see it through the words that we see and share on this forum...?

Well, I can see you.

I have scrolled every topic from every page here, and find myself going back again and again to see if I find anything I missed.... I love this site, I learn a lot and I am on the site a lot...I like like-mindedness and I think that is something we all have in common to any degree small or large...we sought out or stumbled upon or was referred or just looking to connect to someone who gives the time...whatever got us here (i think some might just want to chat and find friends lol thats fine too not cool but fine) but we all signed up to be members here on THE PHILOSOPHY FORUM....

Not every account contributes and I see the regulars, I see how those that do, use the site, engage, I see what you comment on, I see what you introduce to the thread in your OP's and that tells me a lot where or what ideas you lean towards and how you go about them also tells its own sometimes story in itself...and I must say, I have been highly impressed by the shared content and work by a lot of you while I have also cursed aloud reading somethings posted by others but those others mean that I am aloud to JUDGE because its not about what I think is complete bullshit nonsense. I really think the positive outweighs the bad here greatly. I love the openness andI dont want to say it because its not the right word, but the bravery some people have as they confidently share stuff I find to be...regurgitated and wrong...but THATS ON ME...and I would like to have more confidence in sharing myself. You have helped shine a light in my darkness. That counts for something.

But I am not there yet, I question myself and its valid that I do. BUT IM HERE, thats progress. Im proud.

I need to format better and type in a way more people can clearly understand my point but the point is not having one all the time still allows one to come...I think in this case I am replying because I have something and I wonder can you see that?...its because of YOU ALL HERE!

I have been highly motivated by the contributions I have seen to work on my communications, but I still think where i lack in organization and formatting can be easily improved but what I am saying now i decided is worth the risk of facing the outcomes or fear I have, being dismissed or belittled or corrected without AUTHORITY..

Yeah you can say I am going off the rails, over explaining myself. I can see someone saying I am doing it so much so that it may have little to NO VALUE to what concerns the OP. But I would not question that feedback, because i didnt ask for any. I am not agreeing or disagreeing I just like the direction this post has taken. Thanks for being you. But not thanks as in, you did something i needed...i would have been fine. I wasnt losing sleep or now seeing something I didnt already...I'm just glad to see the like mindedness and jumping in because of it in this thread...

I may see it more as a whole but its not real yet as a whole but its being built...I am seeing it as a whole, while those who may be taking the value of their views more seriously then the part itself, when the part is nothing without the whole...where if this forum were to be gone tomorrow, would you get or be willing to share your ideas and what do you seek? Who is your audience? How is feedback turned into new value for you? How can you be bothered? How bored are you? How much do you like like minded people?
...Its amazing how I seem to forget how much I need and crave getting into the minds of others who are well taught and educated and interesting and talented and well spoken too! I dont get to talk to people day to day without having to stop myself from going too deep getting to the bottom of things. Things like understanding people better for them without them even knowing. But I like to understand more then you may know. I see me in those of you with similar deep thinking thoughts and I have been intimidated by how beautifully some people can articulate without going off the rails like me...but maybe thats what I want to do...i'm being true in that, if you need prove...I havent commented on anything on this forum WITHOUT GOING OFF the rails at least a little, but I think if you get anything from this know feedback exists in me for many of you if you ever need to hear it for yourself....

what I meant about me seeing this place (the forum) as the whole rather than interacting as a part that is of no whole, i mean to say... when i say "whole" and "part" i think of a machine that is still being built but we have the parts but its not fully built yet...its hard to build something that was never designed before but it isnt hard to get there from a vision of the whole for what its worth...and TIME IS LIMITING but how so? (another topic I can go on an on about and shall one day) AND one day this machine will serve its function as a whole, and a successful one at that! When the parts come together with the function of it known undeniably serving its purpose but how did we get assembled and how many machines exists like this?
I am trying to say SOMETHING but I cant do it efficiently YET...For me, seeing that I am a part in this whole,its clear I am not established yet or successfully set in this whole, where is my place? Do i belong? I feel I can find my place as a part though, but not for me this time for the whole only! Not me any part will do....

Sorry its long winded, I have typed this up and enjoyed doing it. Those lost let me know where I lost you, to where the point of the OP may become NOT LOST for me but just pushed aside for the moment, because thats HOW I DO THINGS right now...If the worst happens, I'm dismissed and belittled and booted from the forum by someone or everyone on here and that alone would tell me a lot. Is that not useful real knowledge? Yeah, I would get my feelings hurt (thats my problem) and want to defend my honor (also my problem) but I STILL CANNOT BE BOTHERED because I would be learning regardless...Where my part in this belongs and is taught to me but not by any worthy teacher...education is lost when I realize the student depending on these "teachers"...by teachers I mean, strangers asking strangers "what is the meaning of life" and being dead serious like the answer is here...IF it is and was, WHY WOULD WE TELL YOU? You cant just ask that LOL I judge stuff like that but am I wrong?
EVEN IF WE KNOW FOR SURE...Its like they expect people to hand them the answer they worked hard to arrive to...They lose the chance to get there on their own, do they even know what they WANT? Is it THE TRUTH? And doing it in the least authentic, most basic way, and without questioning who and what they get an answer from... just a "thanks!" they say to those who has the patience to give them any attention, you are better then me...but do they not know that people still give an answer, even when they dont know themselves for sure...its interesting to see it happen. It does here, its all here.

I Question things, I question myself for questioning things...but I need to make it make sense for ME and from there I can make sense of things with others..together we can arrive at a truth thats objectively true, i think. I think regardless if no one responds. Thinking thoughts are sometimes not worth questioning too deep as its just the brain being with you... I am willing to be corrected but from where I stand who is to bother?

Look at all these words!!! Dont have to read to see.... Look what you did to me, I cant thank you enough.

I was moved to share all this, but its the work im tasking myself with...I have written a lot about moral objectivity not as a task, but for fun in my free time from such a subjective POV that isnt necessarily about "me" being the subject but a subjective POV from a person willing to take on a role and be a part of a team...the whole is real, but its hard to imagine human kind getting there as good as parts of a whole that is just doing what its function...its doing what its supposed to, a machine with parts of the whole...are we as humans doing this too? Perhaps...I am not asking because I want or need that answer from any one part here but I question it and want to see the parts in action....even if its not what I want to see.

...I dont want to see anything, I just wanted to let those know...and say for another moment, I did ask the people here, are we as humans doing this and heading there? are you all doing your part? and everyone replied with a confident "yes" I wouldnt question that but I need to be sure you do...because I will eventually question it anyways or someone will...Is lack of questioning and acceptance a problem to be bothered with? If that is what is preventing people and the will they have to participate in what I think is actually positive growth in humanity but can we see just how positive it really is? How can we see it as the whole when we are in it too deep ourselves?

What I may actually want to ask as a real question to this audience is this:
What the hell is an objective moral truth going to do for me today? Even if say we all agreed that we found at least one of them? How important really is an objective moral truth if I can be almost certain that my existence may be unknown to someone and never have any affect on the ways of our lives... I am doing my part and my faith is certain in the hopes and belief that an objective moral truth exists but we dont have any business driving that bus to get there...our bus is planet earth and we are here together headed....to i guess another place.

The chance doesnt exist, that my life will not interact or be known to many or anoher person whom is far far away from me and my world, that is my realm of reality and theirs is theirs but we both can live objectively without even knowing that we are moving together without bounds, doing our part, living our lives is doing our part and losing our lives is also our part, life and death, starts are ends...but we are unbothered by eachother because we dont know what about the existence of another, its impossible to know....I always think about stuff like that, that someone exists out there that cannot be bothered by me, even with all the authority I have.

Free will? Or free from a will to worry? That is a choice, i think...What do I know? I know that we can get to the bottom of things, but where we chose to go wont tell us anything about a real ETA because we dont have a GPS that takes us, we dont have an address to type into one! We dont even have the means to get there...but we dont stop...we keep moving, not just in time WITH IT.

And hey, we have proof! Proof is in the pudding! Our growth and knowledge that we chosen and even LIKE more in the learning part itself over the whole point or final answer is good enough but sometimes with indirect communication comes great ideas for the self but not any one else..and we cant get anywhere without selfless self awareness, but its not revealing an answer that can work every time...I dont think its worth being bothered over really...because of TIME...we are someones past and of the future but here now...

The fact that I can relate to a Philosophers mind that are centuries older, of a different country, of a different sex,of a different language of a different TIME [ (im a 27 year old Female from Central Fla who is self taught in philosophy with a degree in Drafting and Design, I do AutoCAD and Solidworks for work) this is not important really, only worth mentioning because my outspoken (some may be thinking OVERLY spoken, fine) I am saying this because im not known here, I dont reply to much but when I have its overly done perhaps and lacking what the forum is interested in hearing, but I have many bookmarked OP's and many opinions on topics brought up by the good people of the forum...not that your good or bad but im addressing the members as "the good people" because its a community, we are not ever going to find common grounds but I think a common ground can come from a POV that isnt of this community but is like us because of an interest in knowing the questions we all think about..

These deep questions that is labeled and organized and laid out here for us to share what we consider to be philosophically worth of discussion exists in even in the unlikely, like-minded stranger...because they dont know how deep it is yet and yet they still are doing their part.
That person is thinking and wondering, WE, THEM, US, cant avoid that search as humans but it seems avoiding the dive is worth it for certain minds, and they are right...and that is there part and they know how to play it...No one can see things like you but maybe they could...you may never know. Its not about them as a they but without them are we able to see an US?
I dont think I will see the day WE as THEY can live that way but I know it is true that one day it may happen...that what is being discussed here isnt really worth the back and forth bullshit unless you think we can get somewhere...with ME INCLUDED!
Perhaps more direction is needed but we not need to keep asking the good people of the forum...unless you want to argue, which is also I guess fine and judgement is not coming from me if you like arguing with the same people. Who am I to judge is not the question, because I can answer that. Its that judgement, I believe is perceived and given and taken and passed and wrongly sometimes rightly so...but its the stance one is able to judge from... Even if one may tell you they arent judging, why do you believe them? Some times they may be telling the truth but privacy in the mind allows our judgements to flow and happen and perhaps manifest into certain behaviors, actions, reactions that clearly demonstrate how you COULD judge.

Objective ways to possibly moralize can come from expectations perhaps and I have a lot to say on this, but I had to make certain things clear to get HERE NOW....thats okay. Im just doing my part.

I'm thinking like when a person can BE LET DOWN BECAUSE OF AN EXPECTATION that was unmet say or even if one was LET DOWN BECAUSE their EXPECTATIONS were OFF and they say to themselves "How could I have not seen that coming?!? WTF?" Now what I notice is that what that thinking person may do is behave in a way that is hard on their mind and body and what they are giving out into the world by allowing themselves to be bothered with that expectation they placed even if they knew they had them...
Perhaps if they can ask those questions to themselves but WITHOUT JUDGMENT ON their own self, it wouldnt be as easy to pick up on how morals really are affecting someones well being and peace of mind. These expectations speak for you and speak for me...it just takes someone to notice them. People brush off the idea of an expectation, as its a common thing to hear people claim they dont have any, because they know it will let them down...I do this depending on who, what, where why and how I am going about doing a thing, that I have experience being let down in before in a similar case just a different time. But why not give an expectation a chance?
I am reminded even when I think I am free from expecting anything, If I really think about the question and really answer it to myself FOR MYSELF...and when that doesnt work, I can ask the right person to get me back to a place where I am not to question myself and what i expected...that isnt always the problem. Dont ask if you just want a pick me up or sulking buddy or the one who will tell you what you WANT to hear (unless you admit you arent ready for the truth, thats fine if aware of what your doing in that act of avoiding or masking)....If you are lucky enough, ask that question first to your self and then someone whose word or life means something to you..someone who knows you and who can give you an answer in a way that can force through that prior harsh self judgement AND find the reminder and the goodness you really wanted and how you are going to deal with what comes to bother you again down the line. Its all good, and not because the subject has expectations...its that they are using them to discovering truth in themselves and seeing it in them and getting to see it from another.
The good is the growth and I think we are all growing here..that proof exists no matter what. Its just that who really cares? It doesnt matter how far you come because the way another will be able to get the full good from the objective moral truths created by US will eventually see the whole for WHAT ITS WORTH and they can judge the lengths we took to get there from there growth as well. No growth is almost like really really slow growth or maybe growth that started and never finished but stopped growing while still living..You cant ever really know how much anything was ever worth from this place I think were all talking about, the one and only truth. But if we cant catch up in time to see this truth, if time doesnt stop can we just slow it down...Maybe lose track of time? I have done that before, it comes with a consequence but sometimes is worth it. Maybe we could lose the track we say of time....if we knew the track at all, I dont think its possible to all arrive on time and on track to any where any place any world any space...but that time can be spotted, i think, when IT from US spots it, how could they understand all that? What knows US? WHO knows US? Maybe its not us they see just the progress and ideas we bring to the world from earth...I think US is through me and you and every one it has to be SO BIG and SO SURE. With US what CAN happen? We can decide...i think.

Ich und Du, Martin Buber (1923)

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/782810 Any thoughts on this contribution to thread from The Lounge posted back in March titled, "Cinderella Problem. Anyone understand it?" My interpretation and take on this is coming from a clean slate as this was the first I have heard about the problem ...This view or twist I add to the problem involves not waking up on Wednesday at all, death is the outcome..but is it the only outcome?...The other outcome that WILL ALSO occur in this experiment is of a fair coin toss...two definite outcomes a H or T result and never waking up again.
What if she was never suppose to wake up again after either just Monday (Heads on fair flip) or Monday and Tueday (tails on fair flip) How lucky would she be to get two days instead of one to be alive for one more moment? What if she couldn't wait to die?....unlucky gal.

:grin:

I agree with Tired Thinker, in the way that I am not fully seeing the problem or even "a" problem at all.

Lets say...There is no problem....Okay. Why? Because Sleeping Beauty (referred to as "her" in the following comments) volunteered...(per youtube video that was linked in OP proposing the problem)

What if only 1 option really exists but it just might occur twice sometimes?

Perhaps this is less about the numbers and more about a possible pattern in the surety of the answer, despite the outcome and if her intuition is aligned with her faith (if any) and the answer she gives.I am not sure exactly, this is just my thoughts after the first minute after watching the linked video (I stopped at the reaction of the guy in the video and was uninterested in it to be honest) about a minute in.)

Maybe the test is being done and is for measuring the subjects prediction over (or instead of) the literal probability of the odds... with faith being a component of the subjects answer and if the answers are true or false literally by guessing the result or outcome because of luck, chance or intuitively...

What If she is correct in her answer (eg.coin was flipped and landed on heads was heads and she guessed high probability on Monday making her correct on the flip and the way she answered was with excitement, calmness and acceptance...I then ponder the options further myself, asking questions like Did her faith influence her answer and did the answer come intuitively or did it come with doubt? (for example coin lands on heads, she guess low probability that it was heads therefore she was wrong about the flip because of self pity or other ways she might see her self, self doubt... eg. "no way I am that lucky" "no chance i am right" "I never guess the right answer" that would be reasonable for her to have the wrong answer to the question because without really feeling the answer it was less influenced by intuition if any...

Can there be any "hope" in the answer without the backing of faith? Is she RIGHT TO BE WRONG? And does that align with the actual outcome of the toss? Are there any patterns? Can she feel Tuesday coming or not? Hope without faith, is that relevant to the answer even if her intuition isnt the force behind the answer? Can you tell if it was? How strong of an influence does faith have on the surety of self in the answer? Is she right for doubting her self and answer perhaps? Is the problem somewhere in or about faith being questioned at all?

Why would this be a problem?

-Are the subjects with the right answer (guessing if the coin toss was heads or tails and guessing correctly) actually wrong for having the RIGHT answer?
-Or is the wrong answer in having to prove everything she is doing is right?
-Is there a problem with answers that are seemingly only stemming from faith, intuition? neither?
-Is it doubt?
-Is she wrong or right to doubt her self?
-Is she right or wrong to be so sure in her answer?
-Is it right or wrong to be either but the problem is volunteering in the first place?
-Is the problem volunteering with and having something to lose despite feelings of subject?
-Are they wrong to feel right in this? or vice versa.....

Also, how much does she believe she is going to never wake up again, is that answer a display of her hope in that? Is she showing signs of attitudes, mindset, behavior and appearance that align with the answer given, when right and when wrong literally?? (sleeping beauty meaning or whomever is the subject of study) excited or calm nervous or scared? and if the results of the flip align or follow through with the intuition, faith, display of emotion are involved in the answer maybe could that be shown in this specific study, by using a coin with 2 sides that can portray the reality of just 1 option that happens to presents itself twice?... 5050 odds that they (subject being studied and asked the question) are actually correct in the flip and the surety in the correctness of the answer...when right and when wrong....

What if its not about necessarily about the numbers but how the numbers present and align with personal feeling with or without intuition being surely relied on or of faith or belief or lack there of, these are what might tweak the possibilities of odds, not outcomes.....the attitude and tone of the answer is worth observing along with the literal 2 options 50/50 chances...the odds are HOW THE ANSWER AND , the guess, the surety in the guess and the actual turnout relate or if they do or if a pattern presents itself...

I may ask if it is possible to feel it coming? It being aware of being close to death...knowing it is happening soon? Never waking up ever again? Also I consider this.... if volunteering for this experiment is a problem...meaning one wanted to partake in the study.. then it isnt unreasonable to consider/keep in mind that those applying to do this study/volunteering might be suicidal? do they have anything to lose or feel that way (that they have nothing to lose, when that is not true or when it is...)? How can one feel that? Is the fact I just asked that last question the problem?

It feels right asking these questions even though they could all be the wrong... I am just thinking as if I were there, being studied and studying.... This is the first time I have seen this problem, I thought it was interesting.

How much are we able to improve from the mistakes we make? Mistakes can highlight capability. Mistakes can go unmentioned, be erased, redone...they can be re-written, overridden, and forgot about the moment one realizes the error before anyone else notices... Mistakes are made to remind. Mistakes are made to prepare.

1... instead of how many mistakes, how big of a mistake will teach X?

Why do we make mistakes? Maybe we never learn.

I do apologize, you are right I do appear to be attacking you not rightfully but not unreasonably. I do think I would've judged you differently if you used the climate change example instead, I dont think I would have responded to this post at all actually if you used that. Which makes me glad that I "attacked" your comment because it brought out something in me. I am reminded that I have to work on formatting my ideas and thoughts in a better way to be understood, if that is of course what I want to come from those ideas. I'm not here for that yet, i just wanted to question you personally Sir2u.
What I wrote was directed towards the person who might believe in that example you used...I think what you choose to be picked up by others says something about you. But you are right, I should be careful when judging, and of course...I can only judge so much through a forum and a single comment on the forum at that. (obviously you are more and represent way more than what you express in a single comment) I did stray off topic, but because I was moved by your contributions. I am not apologizing for attacking, because I meant to attack whomever stands by your example...I am sorry for losing you in my attack, and will work on finding better ways to address people who post triggering examples. I didnt have anything really useful or worthy enough to post before reading for comment, and clearly I need to work on formatting my thoughts better... I am aware. But my thinking stemmed from a feeling I felt after reading your contribution to the OP and I think that means something. I am learning, thanks for responding.

is anyone worried or just curious for their own sake?

where did you originally post? or where did you mean to post this?

We should try in some cases, for example "People should not vote for presidents like Trump". But trying and succeeding are again two different things. — Sir2u

If you force things like that, you will miss out or make it more difficult being able to weed out people like you mentioned in your interesting, specific, and overrated example of "people who want to vote for Trump" [get over it already]...if you want to vote for trump and wear his merchandise and put stickers and flags hanging off your belongings and being, that is one thing, if you need to vote for him is another and that is just the surface of a problem started long ago.

Want>Need i think.....want vs need, need is a force so how do you need things you dont know what you even want?........

Force is a word ive been honing in on and mentioning a lot when it comes to nature and the earths natural occurrences everyday..its not something to be measured or scaled but noticed and noted. I think forces can be dangerous and unjust. Avoidable or a prevention to forces should be to take serious. With force comes a natural balance or order to maintain, to be determined and settled ultimately within nature and timing, good or bad both equally.

...force and initiation are different, soooo close though but close doesnt cut it here...you cant just round up, like you can in school in math and make it even!!! Just a decimal place, no biggie. That sounds convenient and depends on who is asking. Math is numbers, numbers are words and words are forces, forces are everything, then where is the balance? Oh yeah, right here...

Nature doesnt read and or listen to words, it is and it is just, and so unbothered by any forces an individual may possibly bring. People are predictable, when their emotions are rightly accounted for along with their beliefs and whereabouts/current living status/mindset then we have power to not force but show and guide and initiate without FORCE.
A negative force, will come to an equilibrium by the balance of natures laws and what is naturally supposed to happen, justice will be served and there is no judge, jury, miracle that can undo it.

I understand cause and effect could together be a force and they together lead to the same end, on good or worse terms.

Do your best today, you will still die with a great imagination.....but in your case,Sir2u, from the example you CHOSE and seem to direct focus' on is what is expected of you and those very people.. and that issue you seem to think is important here...isnt a problem. Its the forces you pretend people NEED to take to positively make a change in politics because its a topic you WANT to get into.
Again..wants>needs. i didnt want to know the political stance you take, but fortunately i was able to notice your emotions through your comment about peoples emotions you have a problem with....your emotions arent far from your beliefs, you said so. AND EVEN IF you dont believe in your example, you just used it because you find it relatable and relevant, well in that case, I learn a lot more...you, Sir2u, are making my point i am realizing as i tend to ramble, i really thank you. I am writing all this for me by the way, no one else, as these are my immediate thoughts upon reading the thread and I'm actively dissecting my own emotions and beliefs, and I know nothing except everything I need to know right now.

Knowing those specific people (and now knowing you a little better from your tone and choices of examples with little insight and seeming very sure of your thoughts on forcing people)
.......Knowing these things, as triggering as they really are [biting my tongue,even though im typing...i write how i speak...(a little about me since you shared so much lol)

...Knowing those people who vote like its nothing (people that should be forced because of a political opinion) lol also (trump wasnt the only joke of an option but was probably the most funny/entertaining --joke of a position, what better person to fill the role than a comedian which he is...lol) i digress......
Same goes for people having babies with multiple partners giving life like its nothing....they are better targets, or to put it not as harshly, they are unnecessary necessities. (is that less harsh? oh well) Nobodies that make you somebody. Their emotions are what matter and if people knew themselves others wouldnt have to worry about forcing others to do things like vote...thats insane. And not a worry i feel of importance..force is bigger than this example its not controllable.

...the better you can target these individuals, the easier it could be to force or better yet SEE the problem that is PEOPLE "thinking" they are powerful enough to FORCE a large group of others, is in fact, A FORCE, especially when you have no one or bad references to vouch for you. Credibility, likeability, and other qualities may help the force seem natural and needed. Force is sometimes disguised as suggestions especially with dominating technology, which should not be looked at in a negative light when distinguishing educated people... education as a department is a force..in a way. But its structure, which i think is somewhat important, and another topic of grand discussion....

Force is unintentional sometimes, that i find more interesting.

How do you go from feeling a feeling to being detained and forced medication.....something happened in between to get to that point.

of course they will sit her down and talk through concerns, they soon may realize there are bigger issues hidden below the surface and this outburst was a sign for help....plus they need to figure out which medication is best for her and whoever is paying for that help so obviously they will start to figure her out one way or another. She doesnt know the answer, shes the only person that should.....how can she learn then? Has she always been slow at communicating feelings and explaining her actions? No rush if so.........but lessons to be learned. Stay out of trouble, especially trouble that your own body cant seem to handle? Self awareness, lack there of. Know your limits, know your boundaries, and if you cant act right then you better be able to explain eventually. Or dont. And be held against your will taking forced meds? It doesnt happen like that. To get to the point of being put on meds, takes more than a few unjustified encounters with people who were concerned. Meds might not even help. Maybe they will? Whats the problem? You can be delusional without acting out. Explain yourself or someone will do it for you. Whats worse?

What is ones truth if no one asks? Is that learnable? I am no teacher...

Then who is asking? Why?

You could be fully aware without having to spread or share any knowings. Are you aware or becoming aware? Is it happening simultaneously? Are you always becoming aware of new things or can you turn it on and off? or both? Are you aware of when you are being unaware? I feel like an "ultimate awareness" could be reached after self awareness is mastered but the end of awareness is unforeseen...certain attributes can make you better at being aware of things, surroundings, scenarios or being able to become aware of certain or even specific things but ultimate awareness.. its like using the body and mind together to learn about its own self.

Awareness could also be a reminder of a truth one has known to be true all along, despite all possible outcomes and oppositions faced. Like one can "spread awareness" while being unaware at the same time. Examples: surroundings arent fit to be receptive of information, dangerous conditions, bad audience "read the room", a person could have a hidden agenda maybe while promoting a promising message thinking people cant see through the lies etc. The "Ultimate Awareness" one can have doesnt have anything to do with a whole truth, I dont think... because it is up to the aware person to let the unaware know how aware they really are. Or however they want to be perceived. Ultimate awareness requires knowing who is listening and who is just talking or asking things to just say something because they want to engage in general, despite the topic of discussion, despite the answers...unaware people sometimes dont know what they want to hear. Or they ask the person that will give them the answer they know they will give and want to hear. Thats awareness but If they want to hear one answer, one they already know to be true to them and arent willing to see things differently, then why even ask? Maybe thats the point. No stupid questions, i guess.

But really...Who asked? Whose truth do you seek and who are you to them? That says a lot. Ask yourself what it may take to be reach "ultimate awareness"...and if you think you are capable of getting there, that is it. I dont think you could find a better answer, are you really looking for whole truth? Why do you deserve any sort of truth, when you dont even know who to ask? When you dont know who to ask, the truth might not then be true at all because of such unawareness of the self who is seeking answers to baseless questions they didnt even want to know answers to in the first place. Make it make sense...for you with the help of others whoms answers actually matter to you, and with good reason as to why they should.... Or accept your own answer. Ask yourself and accept it. Or dont and wait for the answer that fits best in your reality. Thats valid enough.


At least look at this as spreading awareness about how people are so unaware of who they are and who they are seeking answers from, yet somehow thinking they can handle or are deserving of any sort of truth? If you dont have self awareness you are lucky to end up with a psychiatrist. If you arent capable of putting the trust in anyones hands to tell you what is best for YOU when YOU should know the answer or how to get to the answer....Being that unaware that you cant explain what you are doing and why you do what you do is dangerous, and there are cases like the one presented above in the OP where the woman needs to be institutionalized and deserves to be heard but can she explain herself and feelings are they reasonable? Who is she asking to validate? Is she helpless? I think not...she didnt get put there automatically. It takes $$$, family, whatever, someone is taking your burden of life and adding it to their own burdens, trying to help the best they know but you can only help yourself, we know this already and this is a "What if" scenario that takes more context and details to make it make sense...We only know what YOU tell us. Who are you? Why do we know you more than you? That shouldnt be true, you can make it not true. Also, I am delusional.

Are they engaging in any way or trying to get into contact with you? How do you know they are obsessed?