The press there has more guarantees of freedom as well as more self-regulation than anywhere else I've heard of. — Vera Mont
User
Thanks. You write: "..rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience)." However, according to Searle the mental state is not a representational experience but a presentation of the perceived object (the intentionalistic sense of 'experience'). Do you agree or would you like to clarify what you mean by 'representational experience'?
Response
You raise a good point, and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify. In using the term "representational experience," I was referring to the idea that perceptual experiences represent or are about objects and properties in the world, rather than being mere sensations or qualia. This is a common view in the philosophy of perception, but you are correct that it may not align precisely with Searle's account.
Searle argues for a direct realist theory of perception, according to which perceptual experiences are direct presentations of the perceived objects themselves, not internal representations of those objects. On his view, when we perceive an object, the object itself is a constituent of the perceptual experience. This is what he calls the "intentionality" of perception - perceptual states are intrinsically about or directed at the objects perceived.
So in Searle's framework, it would be more accurate to characterize perceptual experiences as presentations rather than representations. The experience directly presents the object rather than representing it via some kind of internal content or vehicle of representation.
I think Searle's account captures important insights about the phenomenology of perception - the fact that perceived objects seem immediately present to us, not indirectly accessed via representations. That said, I'm not fully convinced that we can do away with representational content altogether in explaining perceptual experience. It seems we need some notion of perceptual content to explain perceptual illusions, hallucinations, and the fact that experiences can misrepresent the world.
But you are right that "representational experience" doesn't quite fit Searle's view, so thanks for pushing me to clarify that. Let me know if you have any other thoughts on this! — Claude 3 Opus
In his book "Seeing Things as They Are" (2015), John Searle criticizes disjunctivism, a theory in the philosophy of perception. Disjunctivism holds that veridical perceptions and hallucinations/illusions are fundamentally different kinds of mental states, rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience).
Searle's main criticisms of disjunctivism can be summarized as follows:
Disjunctivism fails to account for the subjective indistinguishability of veridical perceptions and hallucinations. Searle argues that from the first-person perspective, a hallucination can be identical to a veridical perception, which suggests that they are the same kind of mental state.
Searle contends that disjunctivism does not provide a satisfactory explanation for the common cause of both veridical perceptions and hallucinations. He argues that the most plausible explanation is that they are both caused by the same underlying neurological processes in the brain.
Searle claims that disjunctivism relies on a flawed understanding of direct realism. He argues that direct realism does not entail disjunctivism and that one can maintain direct realism while acknowledging the commonality between veridical perceptions and hallucinations.
Searle argues that disjunctivism creates an unnecessary and unparsimonious divide between veridical perceptions and hallucinations. He maintains that a unified theory of perception, which treats both as the same kind of mental state, is more coherent and simpler.
Overall, Searle's criticism of disjunctivism centers on the idea that the theory fails to provide a convincing account of the subjective similarity between veridical perceptions and hallucinations and that it unnecessarily complicates the philosophy of perception by positing two fundamentally different kinds of mental states. — Claude 3 Opus
Disjunctivism holds that veridical perceptions and hallucinations/illusions are fundamentally different kinds of mental states, rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience). — Claude 3 Opus
User
On philosophy of perception, how would you compare the stances of John Searle and John McDowell on disjunctivism?
ChatGPT
John Searle and John McDowell have distinct perspectives on disjunctivism within the philosophy of perception, although they both engage with the topic in significant ways.
John Searle: Searle is known for his direct realism and his critique of representational theories of perception. He argues that perception involves a direct, non-representational relation between the perceiver and the perceived object. Searle rejects the idea that perceptual experiences involve mental representations that mediate between the mind and the external world. Instead, he contends that perception is a direct awareness of external objects and their properties.
In the context of disjunctivism, Searle's views align with what is sometimes called "naive realism" or "anti-representationalism." He maintains that perceptual experiences are veridical and directly reflect the external world. Searle would likely reject the disjunctivist claim that perceptual experiences are fundamentally different in kind between veridical perceptions and hallucinations or illusions.
John McDowell: McDowell's approach to disjunctivism is more nuanced and complex. He acknowledges the disjunctive nature of perceptual experiences, recognizing that there is a difference between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. However, McDowell does not endorse the radical form of disjunctivism that posits a fundamental gap between veridical and non-veridical experiences.
McDowell's version of disjunctivism is more moderate and is often referred to as "epistemological disjunctivism." He argues that while there may be differences in the causal origins of veridical perceptions and hallucinations, they are nevertheless part of a seamless, unified perceptual experience. McDowell emphasizes the rationality and responsiveness of perceptual experiences to reasons and justificatory norms, even in cases of perceptual error.
In summary, while both Searle and McDowell engage with disjunctivism within the philosophy of perception, they approach the topic from different perspectives. Searle adopts a direct realist stance that rejects the need for mental representations in perception, while McDowell offers a more nuanced account that acknowledges the disjunctive nature of perceptual experiences while emphasizing their rational and epistemic significance.
User
In his book Seeing things as they are (2015) and in articles and interviews that are available online, Searle criticises disjunctivism. Can you summarise Searles criticism of disjunctivism?
ChatGPT
John Searle criticizes disjunctivism in the philosophy of perception primarily by challenging its central claim that there is a fundamental discontinuity between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. His criticisms of disjunctivism can be summarized as follows:
Rejecting the Discontinuity Thesis: Searle argues against the disjunctivist claim that there is a fundamental difference in kind between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. He contends that all perceptual experiences, whether veridical or non-veridical, involve the same basic perceptual mechanisms and are part of a continuous spectrum of conscious experiences.
Maintaining Direct Realism: Searle advocates for direct realism, which posits that perception involves a direct, unmediated awareness of external objects and their properties. He criticizes disjunctivism for undermining the directness of perceptual experience by positing a radical discontinuity between veridical and non-veridical perceptions.
Challenging the Role of Mental Representations: Searle rejects the idea that perceptual experiences are mediated by mental representations that stand between the mind and the external world. He argues that such representationalist accounts fail to capture the immediacy and directness of perceptual awareness, leading to an unnecessary ontological and epistemological gap between the mind and the world.
Emphasizing the Role of Background Knowledge: Searle emphasizes the role of background knowledge, context, and conceptual frameworks in shaping perceptual experiences. He contends that perceptual experiences are influenced by our beliefs, expectations, and prior experiences, which play a crucial role in determining how we perceive and interpret the world.
Overall, Searle's criticism of disjunctivism centers on its rejection of direct realism, its reliance on representationalist accounts of perception, and its failure to account for the continuity and richness of conscious experience across different perceptual states. He argues for a more unified and integrated account of perception that preserves the directness and immediacy of perceptual awareness while acknowledging the role of background knowledge and contextual factors in shaping our perceptual experiences.
— Chat GPT 3.5
Yes, but that "what we in our scale see as cars" depends on us (and our sense organs) and is an essential component. — Michael
The notion that a car is reducible to atoms and the forces that bind them together is a false one, but is unavoidable if you try to remove humans from the equation. — Michael
Collections of atoms exist independently of us, but that this collections of atoms is a car is not independent of us. — Michael
Some relevant science:
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..Kohler wear a pair of hand-engineered goggles. Inside those goggles, specially arranged mirrors flipped the light that would reach Kohler's eyes, top becoming bottom, and bottom top. — wonderer1
I'd argue that it is this type of reasoning that has led to the politicalization and delegitimization of much of media where you go only to your own personal trusted news source for any information. — Hanover
This isn't to say there's such a thing as a view from nowhere and that objectively can be established, but balanced reporting, where competing viewpoints are presented would be the goal. — Hanover
Authoritarianism has always been seen as the cure for the failure of the democratic institutions. — ssu
How do you know that it is in fact orange if you never see the orange?suppose the thing in the world is in fact orange, yet I always perceive it to be blue. It is true that I can never experience the thing in the world as it is, but this is irrelevant to my relationship with the world, as I always perceive the thing in the world to be as I perceive it to be, in this case, blue. — RussellA
I'm trying to extend it from the usual notion of "institutions" to something a bit more anarchic, but still reasonable. (at least I hope) — Moliere
The aesthetic attitude is restless, searching, testing - is less attitude than action: creation and re-creation.
What, though, distinguishes such aesthetic activity from other intelligent behavior such as perception, ordinary conduct, and scientific inquiry? One instant answer is that the aesthetic is directed to no practical end, is unconcerned with self-defense or conquest, with acquisition or necessities or luxuries, with prediction and control of nature. But if the aesthetic attitude disowns practical aims, still aimlessness is hardly enough. The aesthetic attitude is inquisitive, as contrasted with the acquisitive and self-preservative, but not all nonpractical inquiry is aesthetic. To think of science as motivated ultimately by practical goals, as judged or justified by bridges and bombs and the control of nature, is to confuse science with technology. Science seeks knowledge without regard to practical consequences, and is concerned with prediction not as a guide for behavior but as a test for truth. Disinterested inquiry embraces both scientific and aesthetic experience. — N. Goodman, Languages of Art (1976), p. 242
Yet Sweden is a perfect example of that huge transformations can happen without revolts and political turmoil and blood on the streets. — ssu
The poverty of peasants isn't at all a reason for there not to be peasant revolts, I'd say it's on the contrary! People that have nothing to lose can lose it. What would they lose if they have nothing to lose? Land ownership is something that makes people to take care of their property. Extreme poverty leads to a very shaky and violent society. — ssu
Objects become art through the artworld participating and dubbing them so. — Moliere
you aren't just seeing raw reality as it is — flannel jesus
What about the other illusion i mentioned? The one that doesn't involve a physical change of light, and must only happen in the brain. — flannel jesus
In Sweden there aristocracy was never dominant, they had to take into account the strong position of the peasants, who were independent. You can notice this from the fact that the Swedish peasantry have never revolted. — ssu
Ok well the scientific understanding of perception is very aware of the illusions I mentioned, so does that mean science is inherently self refuting? — flannel jesus
Maybe Philosophy of Art is an inquiry into why and how what is shown or is done by artists effects us as it does. — Ciceronianus
From time to time, I've wondered what art is, what an artist is, what the Philosophy of Art or Aesthetics is, for that matter. — Ciceronianus
What are others views on such topic from experience!? — Born2Insights
a definition — Arbü1237
Intentionality is typically defined as a certain type of conscious mental state, so intentionality requires consciousness either way. — Lionino
Is there in fact any substantive difference between PDR and Indirect Realism? — RussellA
-From the same SEP articlesomething like whiteness is instantiated, but in the experience itself, not a presented thing.
I don't think you're making a very compelling case that indirect realists need to have any special skepticism in regards to what they see. — flannel jesus
Direct Realists are immune to eye problems? — flannel jesus
The direct realist doesn't have BETTER reasons to think the red dot in their visual experience is caused by mars — flannel jesus
Disagree. Indirect and Direct Realism are part of epistemology. — RussellA
I think everyone should be sceptical, whether the Indirect or Direct Realist. Who wants to unquestionably believe everything they are told. — RussellA
I would think the representation is some collection of neurons in our brains firing with some relationship to a brainwave phase. However, I don't think it makes sense to say that "I see such a representation." At best I only vaguely imagine such a representation. — wonderer1
When looking up at the night sky, if the Direct Realist doesn't literally see dots in their visual field, what do they see? — RussellA
Similarly, the word "is" can be used in different ways in language... — RussellA
The problem with Direct Realism is that it assumes an identity between what is seen and the cause of what is seen. It assumes an identity between the bright dot and the planet Mars, such that the bright dot "is" Mars, otherwise the Direct Realist could not see the external world as it really is.
And if this is the case, in that the bright dot "is" the planet Mars, how can a bright dot in the visual field have a mass of 6.4∗1023kg? — RussellA
I really still don't 100% understand what direct realists mean when they say that they directly experience mars. — Ashriel
Searle defends direct realism.Does that place representationalism among direct-realist ideas or indirect? — flannel jesus