Comments

  • Ukraine Crisis
    Russian combat effectiveness seems to have plunged. They're using reconstituted regiments now, forming new units out of ones cut down far from dull strength. Conservative US estimates are 5-6,000 KIA, which would mean an additional 10,000-15,000+ wounded.

    This is borne out by the recruitment drive in Syria, consideration of using unreliable Belarusian forces, and use of Chechen irregulars and mercenaries like the Wagner Group as frontal assault units for their main effort on Kyiv. Also the abandonment of Kharkiv.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    Speaking at a meeting of Russia's security council, Defense Minister Sergei K. Shoigu claimed that some 16,000 fighters from the Middle East were ready to join the battle. President Vladimir V. Putin ordered the Russian Defense Ministry to help thousands of volunteers from the Middle East join the war in Ukraine.

    (Officially, they are volunteering to "defend" the separatist Donbass.)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Well Putin expressly talked about antisemitism too in denouncing the Ukrainian government.neomac

    Which is another sign of how hypocritical and divorced from reality this Nazi rhetoric is. Just before the invasion, Dmitry Medvedev (former PM and the chairman of Putin's Security Council) gave a speech in which he disparagingly referred to Zelensky's "particular nationality." The expression doesn't translate well from the Russian, but to any Russian, particularly one who've lived in the Soviet Union, that is an immediately recognizable antisemitic dog-whistle.

    But yes, let's spend 30 more pages discussing whether Putin's war propaganda has a grain of truth in it. That is obviously the most important question now.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Do you know how genocidal the war in Checnya was?ssu

    Yes. And tragically, after some initial restraint, that is the tactic to which he has defaulted in Ukraine: heavy bombardment of cities intended to break the morale of the resistance and drive out the civilian population that might lend support to them.

    But here I was thinking about Putin's domestic concerns. The real threat to his power comes not from NATO, but from his own surrounding. However cracked he might be at the moment, anyone who clawed his way to the top of the power hierarchy in Russia and stayed there for 22 years has this knowledge in his bones.

    Many in Russia still don't believe what's going on and believe instead the propaganda on TV. But that can't last forever. A North Korea-like isolation cannot be instituted in days or weeks (although the authorities are taking steps in that direction). Information will filter in eventually. Perhaps more importantly, people will feel the full brunt of the sanctions within the next months (not soon enough for Ukraine though).

    Putin's social contract was to deliver stability, relative prosperity, and a sense of national pride (at the expense of freedom and much else). He has tried to compensate for the gradual loss of the former by doubling down on the latter. Crimea was a major coup for him, but that has since evaporated, partly due to the sanctions. And now, in the space of just a couple of weeks, he has ruined it all. Lies about the NATO threat and the dastardly Neo-Nazis can only go so far, and the economy will soon be in ruins. So what does he have left? He will have to reformat the arrangement. His only chance to stay in power and secure a lasting legacy is to fashion himself into a new Stalin, if he can. Which is to say, terrorize the population into awe and submission. And that will go double for the occupied Ukraine. Soviet-era persecutions of "Ukrainian nationalists" come to mind...
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Many Russians fear that marshal law will be implemented, which Putin has denied. Just like he denied that he had any intention to attack.ssu

    Don't believe a rumor until it has been officially denied.

    Joking aside, I fear that Putin, cornered and desperate, will turn to the tried and true solution - perhaps the only one that he has left: terror, the likes of which we haven't seen since Stalin.

    I doubt that he is suicidal enough to go nuclear, as some suggest, but then after so many unthinkable things have come to pass recently, nothing is out of the question.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Putin is a Stalinist not a Nazi. They are different but still forms of fascism.

    Nazi is more or less distinguished by the idea of a superior race.

    The term ‘Neo Nazi’ is often used are a pejorative term to smear fervent patriots and more right leaning policies.
    I like sushi

    Putin clearly favours the opposite extreme rather than holding a far right nazi view. It is no secret that the Russian’s HATE Nazis due to the conflict in WW2 with Germany.I like sushi

    This is true, as far as it goes. Soviet victory in The Great Patriotic War (WWII) was of great importance to Soviet ideology, and in Putin's Russia it has been amplified into a veritable cult. So of course, anything "Nazi" is taboo in Russia. This is why Russian propaganda loves to smear their opponents as Nazis. And this is why they came up with this ridiculous lie that Ukraine is being run by Neo-Nazis.

    However, don't confuse an attitude towards words and symbols with a genuine, deep-seated ideological stance. (Russians also HATE war... so the government forbids calling the war in Ukraine a "war," and instead refers to it as a "special operation." Problem solved!) As @ssu has pointed out, Putin's government and pro-Kremlin elites have enjoyed a very warm relationship with European far right. As long as they don't literally call themselves "Nazis" and don't wear swastikas on their sleeves, they are kosher, as it were. As you acknowledge, under their uniforms, Stalinists and Neo-Nazis aren't that different.

    The exceptions to this ideological camaraderie are Ukrainian and Polish far right. Not because they explicitly associate themselves with Nazism or employ Nazi symbols, but for historical reasons.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Indeed, we are seeing the consolidation of authoritarianism and the retreat and retrenchment of "Western values" ... not some sort of pyrrhic victory for those values.

    For example, what did the West do for the rest of the world, in particularly economically, during the pandemic? Basically nada, and it's a fools errand to expect loyalty and honour in return for none.
    boethius

    Belarus's handling of the pandemic was disastrous, but that had nothing to do with what the West did or didn't do. Lukashenko's "solution" for the problem was to deny it.

    The events of the past two years to which I was referring were the violent crackdown on the opposition and the hijacking of a Ryanair plane, which led to an irreparable break with the West. The sanctions and ostracism that followed were like a rehearsal of what's happening now.

    As I said, war seems entirely justifiable if the neo-Nazi element is above some critical threshold. It is definitely, from my point of view, uncomfortable amount of neo-Nazi elements to easily argue against his justification. So, that doesn't make me happy, nor the EU doing absolutely nothing about it.boethius

    Ukrainian "neo-Nazi elements" are not much different from European far-right parties and movements, and they arguably have less power and influence there. Yes, they are nasty, but I don't know what you think the EU could and should have been doing about them.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    What does Belarus have against Ukraine anyway?
    At least I'm not aware of any threats or some such (except maybe Putin has threatened Lukashenko).
    jorndoe

    Lukashenko is holding on to Putin for dear life. Until recently he was eking out a living by skillfully maneuvering between Russia and Europe, keeping both at arm's length while feeding off handouts intended to buy his loyalty. But due to the events of the past two years, that racket is history. Putin owns him now.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It won't interest anyone outside of the small circle of opera lovers, but... Never mind nukes. Anna Netrebko, very big-name Russian diva, just got kicked out of the Metropolitan Opera in New York for her continuing loyalty to Putin--probably permanently. A joint project with the Bolshoi was also dropped.Bitter Crank

    And Valery Gergiev has been kicked out of everywhere. Two of the greatest musicians of our time. Sad. (Although, truth be told, they sold their souls to the devil a long time ago, and I've been avoiding them ever since - not that it mattered to anyone but myself.)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Incidentally ssu, in previous episodes Aimen Dean dismisses the inside job conspiracy theory about the Russian apartment bombings, and he's a person who knows a lot about the North Caucasian jihad.jamalrob

    I listened to that podcast earlier, and I don't know what to think of it. Not that I was fully on board with the "conspiracy theory," but the way they presented the story was just bizarre. They were talking about a bombing in Moscow as if it was the only one. In fact, there were a total of four apartment bombings in ten days, two of them in Moscow. But the incidents that are thought to provide the strongest evidence for the conspiracy theory were the bombings that didn't happen. You can read more about them in the Wiki article and elsewhere. Yet somehow Thomas and Aimen appear to be completely unaware of any of this context.

    I did listen to the latest Russia episode. It's interesting, but again, there are these superficial glosses on the US role in supposedly instigating "color revolutions" in the former Soviet sphere. Seeing this complex and varied dynamics as a game between Russia and the big Western powers is the exact reflection of Russian establishment's thinking, and I think it's delusional. Supporting NGO's and such may have had some influence on events, but it wouldn't have been decisive.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    With Russia, the levels are the following:

    1. CONSTANT
    2. ELEVATED
    3. MILITARY DANGER
    4. FULL

    Now Putin is at 2. Or something like that.
    ssu

    A Russian military expert commenting on Putin's statement said that he couldn't parse it: the term that he used, though it sounded official, wouldn't actually mean anything to the military. So either Putin was bluffing, or he did issue some kind of an order, but we have no idea what it really was.

    President Putin continues to escalate – putting Russia’s nuclear forces on high alert, threatening to invade Finland and Sweden.

    I haven't heard that from the Russians. That I would put in the "hyping fear" category.ssu

    I think this was in reference to this:
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Oh, and when exactly did Russia start "bombing and annexing their country"? Was is before or after the government was overthrown by a US backed coup?Isaac

    US-backed...Isaac

    ...put Neo-Nazis...Isaac

    ...in power in UkraineIsaac

    I'll do it just once, not to convince Isaac, but to counter the misinformation. Anyone interested can read more about those events online.

    What happened in 2013-2014 was confusing and messy, but calling it a "coup" is tendentious and misleading. In the end, right after signing an accord with opposition representatives, for reasons that to this day are not entirely clear, Yanukovych and key members of his administration fled the capital and soon fetched up in Russia. (Yanukovych fled on the day when Russia initiated its "special operation" in Crimea.) In the ensuing constitutional crisis, the parliament, where Yanukovych had lost support, appointed a transitional administration and scheduled early elections.

    The US had rather little to do with all this. The talks between Yanukovych and the opposition were brokered by EU members - and Russia (although the Russian representative refused to sign the final declaration). But that was the culmination of months of protests and violence, leading to a massacre of some 100 people by unidentified snipers (which I believe was the point of no return.) Contrary to how Russian propaganda likes to present it, the West had little to do with how mass protests started, spread and escalated. I know this, because I was following those events; I had traveled to Ukraine before and after those events; I have Ukrainian friends, some of whom took part in the protests or supported them from abroad.

    What did the US do? As that leaked phone call between the US ambassador and Nuland shows (which Isaac is holding up as evidence), they followed the events, they fretted over who would take power after Yanukovych, they jockeyed for influence - because of course they would. None of that amounts to a "US backed coup." Although I can see how that fits in with the popular narrative: US had backed coups and toppled regimes elsewhere, so the same must have happened in Ukraine. And look - here is something that sort of confirms this story (conveniently supplied by Russian intelligence).

    The similarities between the way Russian authorities and people like Isaac think are striking. Both think that nothing happens but for the will of agents of great powers, such as US. A pro-Russian government fell in Ukraine? Surely, it must have been a US backed coup. There is no way that ordinary people could have accomplished something like that. Putin and other autocrats like him think that they know their people, and they despise them. They refuse them any agency of their own. The masses can be led by a strong hand (theirs, of course), or else they can be manipulated by malign foreign powers. For all their nationalistic and xenophobic rhetoric, they actually hold foreigners in much higher regard than their own people.


    @ssu has addressed the neo-Nazi canard, but I'll just add that I am generally not a fan of Ukrainian politics (neither the present administration, nor the ones before it), and I am well aware of far-right nationalists and their involvement in it. (Although, considering that the country has been at war for its independence with a regime that refuses to recognize it as an nation, I am surprised at how limited that involvement has been.) But to casually smear all people defending their country against an invasion as "neo-Nazis" is really low.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    And lastly, that part of history really hasn't anything to do with the current government of Ukraine, so what is the connection to this thread? Or is it just a side mention?ssu

    The connection to this thread:

    Brave citizens fighting for their lives.Amity

    Yes. Brave, brave neo-nazis...Isaac

    Fucking disgusting.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Why do you think US is interested in back a few Neo-Nazis of Ukraine?javi2541997

    I don't know, ask @Isaac. He is saying that 2014 Revolution of Dignity was a US-backed coup that put Neo-Nazis in power in Ukraine. (Coincidentally, that is what Putin and Russian propaganda say as well.)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Now it seems taking Kiev may require door to door fighting. The whole argument of being liberators from Western oppression goes to shit when you are facing a strong insurgency as you try to move in, and it is unclear at this point if taking Kiev would even get them the capitulation they want.Count Timothy von Icarus

    The reality isn't hard to find here. Ukrainian people are united and putting up a brave defence against an aggressor. The Hungarian Uprising comes to my mind.ssu

    Russian propaganda is referring to all Ukrainian fighters (including, apparently, the regular army) as "nationalists." Even official statements invariably use this term. So they have their explanation for the resistance: "the virus of nationalism," as Putin put it in his war speech. Whether the Russian people will buy it, and for how long is another matter...

    (Also, they are not calling it a "war," but a "special operation" - that makes all the difference, you see. The authorities actually forbid Russian media to use the words "war" and "invasion" or to mention civilian casualties.)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    One wonders if this kind of issue could cause the Russian army to become more aggressive. There's still no clear goal set for this war, that I've heard. Some say that they want to overthrow Ukraine's president.

    Maybe.
    Manuel

    Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday called on the Ukrainian army to overthrow the government whose leaders he described as "terrorists" and "a gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis."The Moscow Times

    One wonders if this kind of issue could cause the Russian army to become more aggressive.Manuel

    So far they have been acting with relative restraint, i.e. they have not employed the kind of heavy bombardment that characterized their tactics in Chechnya and Syria. They have used cluster munitions in urban areas though (as they did in engagements elsewhere), which is widely considered to be a war crime.

    Residents of a village in northern Ukraine (sorry, US-backed neo-Nazis) trying to stop Russian tanks with their bare hands:

  • Ukraine Crisis
    One way to guarantee you don't understand what's going on is to dismiss the protagonist as "mad".Baden

    I agree that just saying "he's mad" is intellectually lazy and boring.ssu

    Then again, a common mistake is to regard Putin as an (evil) mastermind who has it all perfectly planned, calculated and under control. That is hardly ever the case if we look at other rulers at other times and places, and Putin is no exception. He is just a man. He makes mistakes, he can be deluded, angry, impatient, scared - and yes, even mad. In democratic countries with strong institutions that may not make much difference in the long run, especially since rulers relinquish power on a regular basis. But in a country like Russia with largely decorative democratic institutions, ruled by the same strongman for 22 years, the mental state of the man at the top can matter a great deal.

    And indeed some veteran Putin watchers have noted a change in his behavior over the past few years:

    During the pandemic, analysts had noticed a change in Mr. Putin — a man who isolated himself in a bubble of social distancing without parallel among Western leaders. In isolation, he appeared to become more aggrieved and more emotional, and increasingly spoke about his mission in stark historical terms. His public remarks descended ever deeper into distorted historiography as he spoke of the need to right perceived historical wrongs suffered by Russia over the centuries at the hands of the West.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    NOS4A2 shows up with the sole aim of spreading an utterly baseless "genocide" narrative. Show one iota of evidence for this or we can just presume you're up to your old tricks of spreading Russian propaganda again.Baden

    Isaac is here to back him up:

    For any that don't know, that's Oleh Tyahnybok, leader of the anti-Semitic Svoboda party, later installed into power by the US.Isaac

    That's a lie.

    In the 2014 Ukrainian presidential election he received 1.16% of the vote. In the October 2014 parliamentary election Tyahnybok was again first on the election list of his party; since the party came 0,29% short to overcome the 5% threshold to win seats on the nationwide list he was not re-elected into parliament.Wikipedia

    And no one was "installed": here Isaac is parroting Putin.

    Well, not to worry: soon Ukraine will be denazified and liberated from the clutches of Western imperialism.

    Well, as I discussed with StreetlightX earlier, there indeed still is this neonazi party in the Ukrainian Parliament. With ONE SEAT. And it is NOT IN THE GOVERNMENT. Zelenskyi's party was formed in 2018 and he was elected President of Ukraine in 2019, beating incumbent president Petro Poroshenko with nearly 73% of the vote to Poroshenko's 25%. So I guess Ukrainians weren't so enthuastic about Poroshenko.ssu

    Poroshenko was many things, but "neo-Nazi" he was not. The fact is that no far-right presidential candidate or party got ahead in national elections since 2014. UKIP did better in its heyday than Svoboda did at any time in its history. Perhaps Putin should liberate UK next?

    (Don't bother digging up links, Isaac. I've taken your measure. You know fuck-all about what's going on and care even less, but once you publicly commit to a position you will stick to your guns no matter what.)
  • What are you listening to right now?


    this is my mood today...
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Yeah, Zelensky's administration is so unconcerned about a possible Russian invasion that, after all their resolute posturing, they now seem to be backpedaling on Ukraine's NATO aspirations.

    Scholz, Zelenskiy play down talk of NATO membership for Ukraine
    Zelenskiy said NATO membership was a remote “dream.”

    Ukrainian government floats prospect of holding referendum on NATO membership.
    A possible diplomatic path out of the Ukraine crisis came into sharper focus on Wednesday when a minister in the government of President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine floated the possibility of a referendum that could keep his country from joining NATO.

    This, of course, has nothing to do with the totally made up threat promulgated by Western imperialists.

    (It should be noted that Zelensky is treading a very fine line with these overtures. The actual prospects of a Russian invasion are debatable, but he faces a very real threat from within if he is seen to be giving in to Russian demands.)
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    Why don't we understand everything?Srap Tasmaner

    Understanding is always understanding something in terms of something else; reducing one thing to another; fitting the explanandum within an explanatory framework - explanans, which is, for the present purposes, taken for granted. Therefore, understanding literally everything is an oxymoron. A narrative that purports to explain everything would not even be recognizable to us as an explanation. Any explanation must be grounded in some givens.

    One concern perhaps relevant to this discussion is to remember that this is what we're doing: it's all too easy to think that by naming what we don't yet understand, we do understand it. Thus we use words like "energy" and "matter" and "force" as if they mean something. We can show how we use those terms in our theories, and thus how they connect up to things we consider explained and understood, but there's some lingering suspicion that we don't really understand our explanations. (If some of our variables are still unbound, the logician might remind us, we don't yet have a proposition -- only something like a proposition generator.)Srap Tasmaner

    This, as they say, is a feature, not a bug. Feynman has a nice discussion of force in his lectures apropo of exactly this.

    Science doesn't attempt to understand everything: scientific explanations are reductive, rather than totalizing. You study some phenomena from a certain perspective, identify an underlying structure, then try to fit the phenomena of interest within that structure. The structure - the scientific theory - is your given in this context. Science has many constantly evolving theories, but theories are only succeeded by more theories. There can never be a point where everything is explained away into nothing.

    Of course, understanding, sense-making is a much more general activity than just doing science. We engage in it constantly, in every act of cognition. Vision, for example, is a low-level, largely unconscious process of sense-making, where we reconcile visual signals with a predictive model, adjusting the model as needed.

    It is possible to explain everything within the context of an explanatory framework - that is, explain everything other than the framework itself. It doesn't usually happen in science, but a broader gestalt, a religious or spiritual system, or even just a state of mind, however fleeting, can make such a claim. (Perhaps this is what people mean by being at peace with the world.) But even such all-encompassing sense-making frameworks depend on something being taken for granted, left unexplained: they cannot explain away themselves. As you say,

    we have no way of establishing that our research tools (our own minds) are in good working order (there's no standard we could possibly reach for)Srap Tasmaner

    Even where we can reach for some other standard (than a given explanatory framework), that only moves the question one step further.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    This I've read now from many various references. When Russia occupied the Crimea in 2014, the lack of a logistics tail fooled Western observers (and they were then focused hunting terrorists anyway). Now the arrival of that logistical tail, field hospitals, ammo depots etc. sends a message.ssu

    Crimea was (or, let's hope, would have been) a very different operation though. There wasn't a large-scale invasion and hardly any military confrontation. That "stealth invasion" was like nothing anyone had seen before, but then the circumstances were pretty unique. This time it looks like (or is made to look like) a classic land and sea invasion on a scale not seen since WWII.

    I also happen to think the Crimea annexation was a reaction to Western meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine when it refused to bend over and get anally shafted by the IMF.Benkei

    what
  • Currently Reading
    Kazuo Ishiguro – The Buried KnightSnakes Alive

    The Buried Giant, surely? (It's on my list.)

    Books I read recently:

    Ivan Bunin - Stories and novellas
    Thomas Mann - Death in Venice and other stories
    JM Coetzee - Waiting for the Barbarians
    Dino Buzzati - The Tartar Steppe
    Salman Rushdie - Midnight's Children
    Olga Tokarczuk - The Books of Jacob - just started. This one will take a while...

    Jude the Obscure
    by Thomas Hardy
    Pantagruel

    A great read, but gloomier even than Tess, in its own way.
  • Replies to Steven French’s Eliminativism about Objects and Material Constitution. (Now with TLDR)
    It’s from “There’s are No Such Things as Ordinary Objects” in the bookThe Nature of Ordinary ObjectsIgnoredreddituser

    Thanks!

    For those who don't have the book, which is probably most of us, this article may help: Defending eliminative structuralism and a whole lot more (or less).
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Waving an invasion banner visible to spy satellites is a flamboyant message of some kind, especially when your real opponent knows you have logistical challenges wrt your target.frank

    Well, you can't mount a full-scale invasion in secret, so this is neither here nor there. If they were in fact preparing for an invasion, it would look pretty much how it looks today.

    And costly. Put into the field over 100 000+ troops and then have them there for months is expensive. Usually armed forces don't do it.ssu

    Which is why in the earlier stages of the buildup they were mostly moving armor, and artillery, which take longer to transport and deploy - with skeleton crews and little support. (This actually prompted some commentators to dismiss the possibility of an invasion.) But now it looks like they are deploying additional infantry, military hospitals, support units.

    No one knows whether this is a monstrous bluff or the real thing, but some military analysts say that so far it looks like a textbook example of an invasion in the making.
  • Replies to Steven French’s Eliminativism about Objects and Material Constitution. (Now with TLDR)
    Not looking for a summary of the thread, just the paper referred to in the OP, thanks.
  • Replies to Steven French’s Eliminativism about Objects and Material Constitution. (Now with TLDR)
    I’ve been teaching myself metaphysics, it’s been pretty challenging since I don’t really have anyway to get feedback. I was wondering if you guys have an ideas how to reply to an argument Steven French makes below. It seems like a combination of the grounding problem and overdetermination to me, but I’m not sure if I’m on the right track or how to reply to it. Everything below is an excerpt from his paper.Ignoredreddituser

    What is the paper? If you want to discuss it, please cite it for the benefit of everyone else, because it is difficult to comment on an out-of-context excerpt. And to make it clear that you citing someone, use the quote function. Select the text and click the talk bubble icon on top of the post box or put quote tags around it:

    [quote] ... [/quote]
    
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    SophistiCat, I read a lot of what you post and generally find it both well-informed and level-headed, but as long as I’ve been reading you, you have remained, shall we say, unimpressed by such expressions of wonder and bafflement. For you, if there’s a theory that works, all strangeness of the phenomena accounted for is banished, and no strangeness attaches to a theory that is successful. I’m exaggerating, I suppose, but have I mistaken your attitude?Srap Tasmaner

    5plB6Z.jpg

    I don't know, I don't think I have a consistent attitude towards wonder and bafflement in general. There is one sense in which this is probably true: if we are talking about surprise as an epistemic state, i.e. what happens when we encounter something unexpected, or something for which we have no explanation. This state of surprise is eliminated if we find a satisfactory explanation. Of course, nothing can be totally explained without a residue, so you might say that, upon reflection, we should always be in a state of wonder: Why does the world exist? Why is it the way it is? That sort of thing.
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    It's studying what the classics - up till Newton - and a bit beyond him, took to be a fact about the world, that we could understand it. We can't.Manuel

    Where "understanding," according to you (I am not sure about Chomsky), means reconciling with our hypothetical innate intuitions. I say "hypothetical" because, other than young children, everyone's innate intuitions are mixed up with learned or constructed "theoretical" understanding, and separating them takes some work. In addition to which, intuitive understandings are, for the most part, unthought and unarticulated, many of them embodied in our physical abilities of seeing, hearing, moving, and so on. Making these implicit beliefs and theories explicit also takes quite a bit of reconstruction.

    But, as I keep saying, it is simply implausible to assert that "the classics" were feral savants, operating on pristine God- or Nature-given intuitions. They were not. They were as sophisticated theoreticians as anyone today - it's just that their background was of their age, not ours. If anything, it was Hume and his fellow empiricists who pushed to clear out the "occult" deposits of classical theory and turn to a more direct, phenomenological perception of the world. Which just served as a renewed basis for more theory construction. That innocent age of theory-free understanding of the world? I don't think it ever happened.

    What I think the Newtonian revolution in physics exemplifies is a rise of empirical science that was happening at that time, enabled and spurred on by developments in instrumentation and analysis and the accumulation and dissemination of knowledge. Prior to this development, natural philosophy could be intuitive or "occult" or somewhere in-between. There were controversies, but as long as contesting theories remained nice and vague and metaphysical, they were all on equal footing, and one was free to believe whatever appealed to one's intuitions, politics or learned doctrine.

    The new sciences, when they arrived, had an unfair advantage: they "worked." And it is hard to argue with what works; even the unlearned could eventually appreciate their fruits in the form of useful technologies. And so, like it or not, they had to win out.

    I don't mean to frame this as an opposition between benighted tradition and the objective truth that science finally uncovered. I think there is continuity and mutual influence between the old and the new ways of thinking. The shape and direction of scientific theorizing owes much to our nature and to our culture. On the other hand, what today's common man or woman considers commonsense are just the sort of things that were baffling Newton and his contemporaries (with the caveat of the enduring pull of folk science). 300 years of scientific dominance have left their mark on our cultural background.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It's hard to see what it is that he is pissed about, what he is trying to gain, and why now. I think that Western diplomats aren't being coy when they say that they are baffled.

    Is he enraged about military aid to Ukraine? Well, Russia has been arming, supplying and otherwise aiding and directing rebels inside Ukraine for years, and everyone knows it, and the Russians know that everyone knows - they aren't being particularly sneaky about it. One has to be a terminally oblivious Putinversteher to think that Russia is the wronged side here.

    Is he just doing it to keep the West on its toes, as some say? But this is too dangerous and too costly an adventure for such a modest payout. And what would be his end-game? After all these hysterics and military escalation he can't just back down or settle on a reasonable compromise. He is spoiling for a fight. This is the scariest aspect of the whole thing.
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    It's the simple view that there are things we can know and things we cannot, given that we are natural creatures. Not in this essay, but in a different one, he distinguishes between "problems" and "mysteries", problems are those questions we can ask and (hopefully) answer. "Mysteries" are those we can ask and not answer, such as say, free will or how is it possible for matter to think? Then there are questions we can't even ask, because we don't know how to phrase them.

    This would give an "updated" view on the intuitive aspect:

    https://cprtrust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/COMPLETE-REPORT-Goswami-Childrens-Cognitive-Development-and-Learning.pdf

    Particularly "naive physics" p.6.
    Manuel

    Yes, there is an interesting body of research in psychology and education regarding "folk" or "naive" conceptions of the world and their relation to science. What has been found is that folk have fairly robust beliefs and (arguably) theories concerning the operation of the physical world, that they often conflict with the scientific view, and that they are resistant to modification via scientific instruction (though the extent of their incorrigibility is debated). Is this what you think Chomsky means with his "mysteries"?

    The claim itself is unremarkable, considering that it has been known and studied for decades. But the implication of the unintelligibility of the world and impossibility of knowledge is nonsense. Intelligibility and knowledge aren't about innate intuitions, or else we would have to say that pretty much our entire body of so-called knowledge isn't actually intelligible to us! This is just language on holiday.

    The 17th century scientific revolution was a reaction to Aristotelean physics, which postulated occult forces that no longer made sense. But of course, Aristotle was taken very seriously and was considered by many to be among the greatest of thinkers, no doubt about that. Aristotle was likely highlighting other aspects of our innate "folk psychology", putting emphasis on different aspects of the world, which were not satisfactory for many of the 17th century figures.Manuel

    The conception of the world as a mechanical contraption, which Chomsky identifies with materialism and contrasts with later scientific ideas, such as Newton's gravity, is actually pretty specific to that time and place on which he dwells the most. I am sure that it has connections with folk physics, but I don't think that it is identical to it. Those materialists were pretty sophisticated folk, for better or for worse.

    I'd only quibble that I don't think physicists have intuitions about how gravity works, they have intuitions about how theories about gravity work and how they can relate to other phenomena in the world. The intuition would be on the theory side.Manuel

    Point taken, these are not identical to physical intuitions, as those psychology studies that we've been referring to show.

    The main topic of the essay, as I read it, is that we've lowered the standards of science, we no longer seek to understand the world, but seek theories about aspects of the world. That's a big lowering of standards of explanation.Manuel

    But whose standards are these? Who ever thought that a newborn babe, so to speak, could intuitively grasp how the world works, down to the very foundations?

    This is why I am skeptical that this is really what Chomsky was driving at - that he was even driving at any such specific thesis. He seems perfectly happy and engaged with his dilettante notes on the history and philosophy of science, but I don't see him pushing hard for some grand claim.

    As for your last question, I think, in the end, the point is going to be person dependent. For me, it's quite crazy that we understand so little and that the world exists at all, it's baffling to me. There's no reason to expect any species to evolve having a capacity to ask and answer questions about the world at all, there's no obvious benefit to doing these things.Manuel

    Well, evolution is notorious for its lack of foresight. I also don't think that there was any simple and specific reason for this outcome.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Russia could have prevented NATO far more successfully by simply NOT DOING ANYTHING AGGRESSIVE.ssu

    Russia is in an excellent position now to keep Ukraine out of NATO pretty much indefinitely. Everyone here (everyone else, not you) unthinkingly swallows Russian propaganda line about NATO on their doorstep. But as all sides knew even before this brouhaha started, Ukraine wasn't going to join NATO any time soon, if ever. For one thing, joining NATO is a consensus decision of all current NATO members, and whatever was said years ago, few want Ukraine there now. Just the other day the president of Croatia made this very clear (Croatia is a NATO member). All Russia has to do to practically guarantee that Ukraine doesn't join NATO is to maintain the status quo. A country that is continually being bled by its hybrid war with Russia, including a low-intensity armed conflict on a large part of its territory, has no chance of being admitted to NATO or to EU.
  • What's the big mystery about time?
    It is common nowadays for philosophers to have a second (or indeed first) degree in the discipline in which they specialize. I know of some prominent philosophers of physics with physics or math degrees: David Albert, David Wallace, Huw Price, Dennis Dieks.

    Like I said, don't take us bullshitting on this forum as an indication of what's going on in academic philosophy.
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    What's quite ironic in all of this - these so called "naturalists" and "empiricists" - who look at say, Hume, with much admiration, is that they don't read him, or they read him badly, not only with regard to mysteries, but regarding "innate ideas".Manuel

    "Naturalists" and "empiricists," with or without scare quotes, can admire Hume, if it pleases them, but why should they slavishly follow him in everything? What good are you as a philosopher if all you can do is repeat what someone else wrote three hundred years ago? Don't confuse philology with philosophy.
  • Chomsky's Mysteries of Nature: How Deeply Hidden? Reading Group
    I mean, it’s not interesting to me, insofar as I agree with this approach to philosophy and see people who disagree with the main points to be very mistaken. However, if I had to attack it, I don’t see any alternative to people who currently ridicule “mysteriansim”, like Dennett or the Churchlands.Manuel

    As I already said earlier, I don't think that Chomsky, in this essay at least, engages with the issues that animate debates between Nagel, Chalmers, McGinn, etc. on the one side, and Dennett, Churchlands, etc. on the other. Calling Chomsky's position "mysterianism" is misleading. Indeed, going by the evidence of this essay, I am not sure that he is even familiar with that other "mysterianism."

    If you think that he is advancing a "mysterian" thesis, how would you summarize it? It is not all that clear to me that he is developing a consistent thesis throughout the essay, but here is how I might tentatively reconstruct it. As Chomsky tells it, up until Newton, natural philosophy was following our intuitive understanding of how the world works. At one point he makes a connection with our innate intuitions, as revealed in psychological studies - folk physics and the like. More often, he talks about a "conception of the world as a machine"; how naturally intuitive that is is not obvious to me, but apparently he believes it to be so.

    (This is a very dubious claim, by the way: to equate 18th century European philosophers' thinking with innate, animalistic intuitions. So, neither Aristotle nor three millennia of human civilization made a dent in their thinking? Or were they all that childish-simple, Aristotle included? I hesitate to attribute this claim to Chomsky, so correct me if you read it differently.)

    So then comes Newton with his radically unintuitive theory, and after some fruitless attempts to reconcile it with traditional metaphysics, he throws up his hands and pleads hypotheses non fingo: it's just a mathematical theory, and the only thing going for it is that it works. And thus modern science was born, increasingly divorced from our intuitions, comprehensible only to the intellect, if even that.

    But the picture is not so simple, is it? Our understanding evolves throughout our individual lives, as well as throughout humanity's cultural evolution. At one point Chomsky seems to acknowledge this, seemingly contradicting the thesis that he has been developing, when he quotes 19th century mathematician Friedrich Lange saying that we have "so accustomed ourselves to the abstract notion of forces, or rather to a notion hovering in a mystic obscurity between abstraction and concrete comprehension, that we no longer find any difficulty in making one particle of matter act upon another without immediate contact, ... through void space without any material link." The same could be said about anyone educated in a modern school system. Action at a distance is not that big a deal any more. We throw around concepts like "force" and "energy" as if knew what we were talking about. And that's just the average person; physicists, mathematicians and other specialists develop even more advanced intuitions in their areas.

    There could be a case to be made for a core of innate intuitions, but what would be the significance of it? That we can transcend our nature-endowed intuitions is perhaps the defining trait of our species. So what is all this hand-wringing about the unintelligibility of the universe?
  • Pragmatic epistemology
    You certainly are welcome to keep posting hereT Clark

    No, he is not. This is a returning banned poster.
  • What's the big mystery about time?
    This thread illuminates what it is to be a philosopher in modern timesjgill

    No, it doesn't. To see what philosophy in modern times looks like, read some actual philosophy, e.g. here: https://philpapers.org/browse/time/
  • Ukraine Crisis
    This article in Foreign Policy from a few days ago makes the same points:

    Liberal Illusions Caused the Ukraine Crisis
    jamalrob

    Counterpoint in the same magazine: There’s Plenty of Blame to Go Around on Ukraine

    Reveal
    Realists are sometimes criticized for ignoring weaker states’ agency, but Walt takes the argument to its absurd conclusion by denying the agency of everyone but U.S. policymakers. It’s U.S. officials who make the choices that matter—bad ones—while the rest of the world, Russian President Vladimir Putin included, are simply enacting the eternal laws of history.

    Realists argue that regional powers always seek primacy in their neighborhood. According to this logic, a recovering Russia would seek to reestablish regional hegemony regardless of U.S. actions. Western accommodation would have only sped up the process. It’s incoherent for Walt to claim that liberal illusions caused the Russia crisis while also arguing that regional powers naturally seek control over their neighborhood. The rise in tensions would be expected unless Washington abandoned all interest in the region.

    What national interest do realists think Putin is defending by escalating this crisis? What is the existential threat he faces that justifies war and tens of thousands of casualties? Even if NATO is a worry, it’s hard to credibly portray it an as immediate danger, especially since Russia’s concerns center on an expansion that hasn’t happened and doesn’t look likely to happen. If you argue that Putin is merely reacting to Western pressures and his reaction is understandable and expected, you are also arguing that his decision to wage war is justified on realist grounds. Which is, sorry to say, a questionable way to explain a war of choice, fabricated and pursued for reasons unknown.


    What Russia is trying to accomplish with this sudden burst of hysterics is still an open question. Everyone here is taking their rhetoric at face value, but that could be a mistake. Perhaps the entire (un)diplomatic theater is to serve as a casus belli when their blatantly unacceptable demands are not met. Aggressors from Napoleon to Hitler have used such sudden ultimatums as a pretext for an invasion. Russia's very visible preparations could be the real thing, and not just a big stick that they are waving to gain leverage in negotiations.

    I guess we'll find out within the next few weeks.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The two main candidates were neck and neck in the first-round vote held on 31 October 2004

    That was 2004; a lot has happened since then, like the "Orange Revolution" that happened right after that 2004 vote. 2014 was a watershed year. If there was any ambivalence or indifference towards Ukrainian statehood before, post-2014 the mood is very different. And yes, that varies by region, but the overall shift is massive.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Ukraine is a nation split right down the middle in terms of the views and cultural make up of the people. Crimea is/was basically made up of Russian speaking pro Russian people and the eastern half of Ukraine is basically the same.

    If they just let people vote maybe the war would finally end. Instead it has been another ongoing proxy war between Russia and US.
    I like sushi

    They did let people vote in Ukraine. Guess what? Pro-Russia candidates were given the boot. Since that unpleasantness over Crimea and the ongoing war in Donbass, Ukrainians' attitudes have shifted significantly, and not in Russia's favor.

    In Russia the annexation of Crimea was hugely popular (although the initial euphoria is now gone, displaced by other concerns). A large proportion of the population views Ukraine as either an enemy or a wayward child that needs to be brought to heel.

    There is plenty of sense in Russia’s view that the US has been steadily encroaching on Russian territory.I like sushi

    Just how far do you think Russia's territory stretches? Or do you mean something like Lebensraum? If we are talking about actual Russian borders, with or without Crimea, there hasn't been any encroachment since WWII. Russia, on the other hand, has been encroaching on its neighbors since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. It occupies or effectively controls parts of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine.