So think about your own experience. Have you ever persuaded someone, on say, TPF, to change their worldview? If yes, how did that happen? And if no, then what does this say about the ability to do philosophy as a society, together? What value does reason then have, if we cannot relate to each other to the extent that we can persuade each other? — Agustino

What about specific people whose world views have changed me a result of philosophizing together? Where do I vote on the poll for that?

Let's give Tiff some credit for standing up for someone so disliked on this forum. — Posty McPostface

Your a sweetheart Posty~ Thank you for your support~

Here is a guide on how to get to enter the USA illegally. My expectation is that the new President of Mexico will do his part to keep this page updated or deleted. Again, time will tell.

To be honest Tiff, the answers to some of these questions are answered in some of the articles I've shared. "How can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum?" You submit your claim at a designated point of entry and US officials determine if you have credible fear of returning to your home country. If you are denied asylum, they put you on a plane back to your home country, and this includes Guatemala or any country that you originated from. — Maw

I stand corrected.

Fair enough, but I only moved you because an actual Holocaust survivor acknowledged parallels to family separation policy and detainment in concentration camps, to the pre-genocidal era of Nazism. Not every Holocaust survivor agrees with this parallel, by the way, I recently watched a video in which a Holocaust survivor denounced such analogies, but I think he is very mistaken. — Maw

You moved me. That was enough for me.

The point I was making with the Sisyphean task remark, is that you continue to bring up questions or remarks that were answered or explained by articles, or research that I and others have provided across this thread. For example, you ask why there wasn't outrage towards Central American parents who send their children across the border alone (i.e. unaccompanied minors), but I directly shared with you an article about the dire situation in these areas, whether its extreme poverty, or ubiquitous gang violence, or, most likely, a combination. If your son was approached by gangs, or threatened by vicious gangs, or if your daughter was threatened with rape or murder, the logical (though nevertheless difficult) decision is to send them away, because anything would be better than death. That's why there is no "outrage". These parents aren't sending there children away because they want them to abuse our public resources or some nonsense, or come to America just to join MS-13. They are sending them away to escape certain violence and poverty, and to try and find a better life, as any parent is wont to do. The fact that this has been brought up several times but you can't seem to absorb it and learn from it, demonstrates that a lot of what I and others say are falling on deaf ears. — Maw

Correct me if I am wrong but if someone is wanting to claim political asylum, they need to present themselves to the country of entry. If my understanding is correct, than any Mexican citizen should be able to present themselves at the USA border, claiming political asylum, which is something we can handle. We can vet or deny and if the latter is the case, they are returned to their country of origin, Mexico, right there, where it CAN be done.

Now, how can someone from Guatemala present themselves claiming political asylum at the USA border? Further more, how can the USA deny asylum and return them to? Mexico? Mexico is the border in which they presented themselves but returning them to Mexico is not returning them home. How are these folks moving through Mexico to the USA without being 'caught'?

Respectively, the new President of Mexico is implementing border police at both the Northern border in which we share and Mexico's southern border with Central America.

AND that development speaks volumes to me. It tells me that we are finally going to have some international cooperation in keeping each countries borders strong. Is it a result of the Trump administrations actions? I don't know yet but time will tell.

Hence the Sisyphean task. — Maw

I understand the reference, I was just shocked at the commentary you were offering frank about me but I respect your honest opinion.

These parents aren't sending there children away because they want them to abuse our public resources or some nonsense, or come to America just to join MS-13. They are sending them away to escape certain violence and poverty, and to try and find a better life, as any parent is wont to do. — Maw

And don't think I don't "get this", I do. I am just not capable of taking care of more when I am barely able to take care of my own. Maybe you are in a position where you can?

If you don't even know what Trump supports or what he said, you are in no position to argue. What I said is straight from Trump not the CNN/NBC bogeyman — Baden

I understand what Trump said but I also know that CNN and NBC are pushing the point that Roe v Wade will be overturned, as if abortion rights are the only subject that SCOTUS will rule on. If Roe v Wade is overturned, the rights to abortion will return to states rights and that is one step closer to what the people of that state want.

You need to look up the word "legitimization" in a dictionary, Tiff. — Baden

I intentionally bolded "legitimization" when I quoted you and I responded withlegalization.
A LOT of ideas are lent legitimization simply by being held by a leader such as the President but that doesn't make it legitimate. President Bush believes in creationism but do you think that because of that perspective, that the USA citizen who believed in evolution up until he took office now believes in creationism as well?
Come on Baden, give the "WE" who make up the USA a little more credit than that.

CNN are not the ones aiming to take away your abortion rights by repealing Roe v Wade, Tiff, that's Trump's stated aim. It's on the record. Look it up. He may fail, but if he does it will be despite your help and support and misguided loyalty. — Baden

"Ending Roe v Wade" which is what you stated is the same talking point of CNN and NBC, who are all reporting how the new justice will vote on the case that may never see the light of day for change.
It is all speculation, nothing more. IF more comes of it, we will handle it then.

However "an extra two trillion in debt you pass on to the next generation, and a debasement of political discourse including the legitimization of sexism, racism and anti-semitism that will stain your country for years to come" are your words and opinions not the words of our present administration.

Unless you can provide citation of who said that WE as a nation are going to legalize sexism, racism and anti-Semitism, it is all speculation.

The prize for your loyalty will be an end to Roe v Wade, an extra two trillion in debt you pass on to the next generation, and a debasement of political discourse including the legitimization of sexism, racism and anti-semitism that will stain your country for years to come. — Baden

CNN talking points which is really speculation, no?

Thank you Posty! I am so excited for him!

Watching your child set a lifelong goal and achieving it!
Heads up Amsterdam! Tiff's kin are headed your way! :party:

You just keep repeating the same old Fox news talking points, Tiff. In and among the obvious fallacies of reasoning, it gets boring. For example, how can the US be treating immigrants badly when Australia is worse? — Baden

Baden, Fox talking points for you maybe but living in a border state that is burdened with absorbing the costs of illegal immigrants? It is a bit more personal for me.

Can you see why that's not even worth responding to? — Baden

Baden, if you feel I am not worth responding to, then don't respond.

However I fail to see how parlor comments (Maws) about another forum member (me) does anything to further conversation with another forum member (frank) about a topic of a thread.

Personally, I think engaging with Tiff on immigration is nothing more than a Sisyphean task. — Maw

Maw, your remark about me is amazing considering you were the one that moved me on this issue. :sad:

How many refugees should the USA accept from other countries that will not accept them?
The USA has agreed to take in over 1,400 refugees from Australia because Aussies think that holding them on Islands in detention camps, without food or medical attention is humane.
How horrible the USA is in taking in immigrants that other countries cannot vet.
If the USA treats it's illegal immigrants so badly, why are people still trying to sneak in?

Where is the outrage of the parents decision to send 13k to the USA alone?
and then the second 13k that come from now until December?
Just how many children do you think we can adopt?

All I can say is that if I had it to do all over again and could rethink my vote, I'd vote for Trump again. — Hanover

I second that vote. :up:

Did you hear the NPR story about the Guatemalan woman who was separated from her children due to zero tolerance? With go-fund-me money she got out on bail and was driven up to NYC where her kids were being fostered. — frank

Yes, I did hear the story and I think it was an amazing reunion and they are blessed to be together again.

How many? What is the point you're making? I'm curious. — frank

The point I am making is that the level of international outrage of how many children have been separated from their 'biological' parents seeking asylum is minuscule in comparison to how many unaccompanied children have presented themselves/found wandering after Coyotes got them to the USA desert since January 2018.

We have somewhere near 3,000 kids that we are trying to reunite with their parents whom all came across the USA border illegally and were separated by the Zero Tolerance policy. Additionally we have over 13,000 kids that presented themselves "unaccompanied" in fiscal year 2018.

Where is the outrage of the parents decision to send 13k to the USA alone? The USA is not reaching across the border and snatching kids from their parents arms. You do understand that right?

Face it: they screwed up. — frank

Frank, I already "Faced it", Thank you kindly for acknowledging my change in perspective, I can see it was duly noted.

Now that I have "faced it", I am asking for solutions for those children, who were NOT separated by the Zero tolerance policy.

If you only have the means to care for 4,000 minors, unaccompanied or separated, seeking asylum at our border what do you suggest we do with those that arrive once those 4,000 beds are full?

Again I ask: without help from the Internet, could you please tell me how many unaccompanied children have presented themselves at our Southern Border in 2018, NOT including those separated by the Zero Tolerance of 2018?

Why is no one willing to guess how many unaccompanied children presented themselves that are NOT a result of the Zero tolerance policy?

Again I ask: without help from the Internet, could you please tell me how many unaccompanied children have presented themselves at our Southern Border in 2018, NOT including those separated by the Zero Tolerance of 2018?

I guess my point is that the majority of adults who are with children are biological parents, so this hysteria over human traffickers is largely overblown. — Maw

And where is the backup that confirms that the "majority of adults who are with children are THEIR biological parents"? Those seeking political asylum KNOW that if you are traveling with children, the USA cannot hold them in an adult detention center. To think that those trying to enter the USA don't know that "a" child is a ticket in to be released and given a court date a year from now, is naïve at best.

The article you linked to concerns DNA testing children separated from parents due to Trump's Zero Tolerance. There's a court order to reunite them within a certain period of time that will require DNA testing to make the deadline. — Benkei

Which has already been determined to be an unrealistic timeline to reunify.

Then there's your comment with regard to how many unaccompanied children reach the US border. They seem to be separate issues and your "many" seemed to initially refer to unaccompanied children as that was the context to which you were replying. — Benkei

Because Benkei, it gets hard to stomach the rage of trying to handle the illegal immigration situation of our own making, the 2,500 kids separated by the Zero tolerance policy being implemented, against the unaccompanied children that have been taken in since January of 2018.

I wonder where the rage is for the number of children that are sent to our border unaccompanied? Do people think that it is in the tens of kids? The hundred of kids? The thousands of kids?

If people have NO idea how many are showing up unaccompanied, how can the rage be the same?
We, the USA, are horrible, despicable people without a heart or an ethical compass because we implemented a Zero tolerance policy in separating immigrants seeking political asylum, when caught NOT AT A PORT OF ENTRY.

Who is the USA that takes in the unaccompanied children that present themselves at our border?

Before you take off on me, without help from the Internet, could you please tell me how many unaccompanied children have presented themselves at our Southern Border in 2018, NOT including those separated by the Zero Tolerance of 2018?

"Many"? — Maw

Yes Maw, many.

I don't like Trump or his organ much. Did I mention that? — Baden

Once or twice a day? :chin:

Some aren't their parents. Some pretend to be their parents. Child trafficking and child sex trafficking is an issue in itself. The undocumented easily fit the trafficking business model. — raza

Many are not their parents which is why the definitively accurate DNA testing is being done to confirm family relation before unification.

After the unifications, what do we do with the children that were brought into the USA under false pretenses?

I think it is a good idea, @unenlightened It has the potential to get a bit rough at times but it will also allow us, as a group, to work through the loss of a member.

In the professional world we use something called an "Exit interview" which is administered upon an employees resignation or firing, to find out why that person is leaving/or being asked to leave and to address any internal issues that might be highlighted in that interview. It is one of the most valuable tools when it comes to retainment of people in your work force.

I have thought about how helpful it would be to know "why" a TPF member chooses to deactivate their account or when a member is banned and their "side" of it. I am not suggesting that there has to be total transparency but I think it is helpful to actually understand how a member got banned in addition to reading the rules.

That is what I kept trying to tell you. The rest of your post is of course hyperbolic nonsense. — Jeremiah

Whew! I am glad we agree on something!
Now, where would you like to house the 10K unaccompanied minors?
They are not nonsense, they are kids without parents.
Now what?

I guess it was not as in line with our laws as some here argued. — Jeremiah

You were right,I was wrong. You solved the illegal immigration issue and have made our nation's border all safe again. The policy has been removed and the nation borders are now open for freely crossing and the only bump in the road is getting caught and released within the USA.

Seeing as you know exactly how to handle such complex issues as illegal immigration, could you please provide the address of where 10k of the minors who crossed the border without a guardian, that were NOT separated from their parents could go?

In the middle of a live, heated debate on one of the morning programs, one man arguing against the absurdity of the rhetoric calling was engaged when he said "You have got to be out of your cotton pickin mind to equate the two" (detention centers to the Nazi concentration camps) to his opponent whom is a black American. Needless to say that the connotation was not lost on the man and he kept repeating "Really? Out of my 'cotton pickin mind?"
I realize the emotion connected to the phrase so I ask do you believe it is something to be outraged over?

As we run out of facilities to house families that are being kept together while waiting to see a judge about their case, we are now prepping three Military bases to accommodate the illegal immigrants being caught under the Zero Tolerance policy.

Whom is the moral authority that we should be consulting on this accommodation? :chin:

I wonder if an old fashioned Ice Cream truck would be able to make a profit here in Arizona. It's not that it isn't hot enough but it is hard to hear that awful but telling circus music they play through the windows, over the AC unit.

So when will it ever be a post - post 9.11 world? — Benkei

I am sorry Benkei, I don't know the answer to that question.

Even children grow up and stop hiding under the blankets some day. — Benkei

I wish it were that simple but that is my cross to bear.

Did you read anything I wrote today? The solution, as even Trump has managed to work out, is to stop separating families at the border. Your levels of immigration are roughly net neutral and are not a problem that I think needs a solution. — Baden

Yes Baden I have read what you have written today. We are not at a net neutral, we are operating with a net negative and it will be showing soon in the prices of lettuce that comes from Yuma, AZ a border town.

My struggle is not with legal immigrants, it is with the illegal immigrants. The reason we are at a net negative is not just because of the chaos at.the border but Mexico's overall economy is doing better.

We are obligated by law to educate illegal immigrants to the age of 18 without proof of citizenship and that puts a strain on the legal citizens tax dollar.

Do you think that charging illegal immigrants in state College tuition is fair, when every other American citizen that does not live in AZ pays out of state tuition, which is significantly higher?

These are just a few examples of the ripples of costs goes so far beyond the images at the border.

You are morally obligated to uphold basic human rights. It's up to you to figure out a way to do that. It's your responsibility as a country. — Baden

Gotcha. Armchair advisor from another country to damn the inhumane ways of the USA but offering no solution to the illegal immigration problem we face.
Fair amount of time given to entertain your suggestions of possible solutions. :sad:

I am asking you how many extra illegal immigrants do you think we are dealing with?

Now, why can't American citizen Sally keep her baby with her in jail?

Can you or can you not answer both of my questions? — Jeremiah

I did. The law states we cannot keep children in detention centers over 20 days.

But whatever. — Baden

This is a disappointing response to a very specific question about your words.

Exactly how many extra are a few?

But whatever. Send them back. Just don't treat them like they're subhuman. — Baden

Send them back where?
Why not suggesting that we help them through to Canada?

What happens when the lawsuits are filed against the executive order because children are being held in detention centers over 21 days?

If it remains that way we are back to catch and release, with more than 90% never returning for their court date.

@Baden
Now Sir, with all due respect please answer my question.