I have my sources ;) — Agustino

We have ways of making you talk >:)

Then begin by loving yourself.

Rumor on the street has it that Paul is desperately trying to fix it, even for free, but Eric Porat isn't replying to anyone, not just Paul. I guess he purposefully wants to use the website as a trash can. — Agustino

What street are you talking about? Are you talking about rumor on the web? Which by the way, I have not heard of until I read this post and wonder where you heard this rumor.

It is not a trash can because those are emptied and filled, hence their purpose. I bet you $100 of Hanover's money that if you could research Eric Porat Or Richard Porat 's tax returns, you will see a business investment to the tune of $20k and the intended failure to convert it to a tax write off. That IS the only reason I can come up with why Eric Porat would not want to sell it back or abandon it all together.

I thought deja vu was a skip in time that allows you to be suspended for that brief moment and when you engage back in the reality, it feels like you have been there before, with the exact same people, talking about the same thing ect. It feels like you have been there before because you were there just like in "buffering" mode.

Since they seem to blame me for everything, if anyone asks, I was with you guys. — Hanover

Yeah, you, Sir and I were sitting with our backs against the wall, in the back of the bar with a clear line of sight to the front door and who should walk in but.....

RIP Fats finally found his thrill, on Blueberry hill.....
First time I heard that song was on Happy Days~

While disturbing, I do admire honesty in all its forms, even where it involves homosexual acts with a person who enjoys mice play. — Hanover

Psst Hanover, he likes to play with mice till they die and then he eats the mice. :-O

I'm Sapientia. I enjoy hunting prey. My favorite food is mice. I like mice and am endlessly fascinated by anything quite small that moves at a fast pace. — Sapientia

I'm Tiff. I enjoy the wiring on my vehicles. It gets me where I need to go. I am looking for a Hawk for rodent control of the ranch. The last Owl is no longer whooing.

Expect Restless Tossing and Turning for a Long Long Time — Sir2u

I know that feeling Sir~

Excellent! Happy endings all around!

How about Happy End of Night?

Good Morning

Mental or physical health care? — Sir2u

Physical for sure. We already know the mental state of Hanover.

t0m, a portion of one of your replies has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Congratulations and Thank you for your contribution.

I'm Hanover. I enjoy long walks on the beach, snow cones at the fair, and skipping stones across lakes. My favorite food is corn. I like simple puzzles and am endlessly fascinated by those pictures you stare at until the image seems to magically leave the page. — Hanover

Hanover, dear friend, I am sorry to inform you but your description sounds nothing like the young buck you were at PF but rather an application for acceptance in a long term care facility, which by the way, removing your love of corn will help you get accepted. ;)

Well since we're sharing, I was groped while working as a childminder by the neighbour's prematurely sexualised seven-year-old girl. A highly inappropriate, unwelcome piece of sexual harassment that was mildly traumatic for me, but I imagine was an expression of a much more traumatic upbringing from her side. But since I was the person of power in the relationship, I was able to deal with it. If I had had an ounce of respect for the local child social services, I might have talked to them, but as it was, I was confident they would only make things worse for everyone. — unenlightened

un, I have been thinking about what you said here. To begin with, I am incredibly grateful that I knew making a pass at my Science teacher would be inappropriate but I sure hope he knows how many girls in my class that were totally in lust with him. He was such a catch that a group of us girls took Summer school Science just to see him.

I think that what I was feeling normal and was glad that if he did know, that he didn't act upon it because there is a chance that because of what was happening at home, I would have fallen for him and his advances that never came. Kudos to Mr. Oberland!

And Kudos to you for thinking through the "why" she did what she did and how you handled it would have ramifications that might just feed the dysfunction at home, that leaves her searching deeply for validation of feelings of love outside of her family.

Did you know the song White Lines is about cocaine?

As long as we can avoid 25 years of repeated abuse, we are making things a bit better, no? — unenlightened

We would be making things more than a "bit better", we would be making HUGE progress towards the ideal goal of a sexual predator free workplace. Especially to the 25 years of students that followed the first assault.

IF you want to be safe from the undesired advance, then something more than responsive court systems will be needed: What is needed are very strong employee class conscious unions that can collectively resist arbitrary and capricious actions of management. I don't know how much you will have to pitch overboard to take on strong class conscious unions, but if you want social change... — Bitter Crank

BC as you may have noticed over the years I am a very sensitive woman with a strong moral compass, an ethical dial that can be moved over time with the right persuasion, a loving individual who cares deeply for both family and friends and am very stingy issuing anyone implied respect because in my eyes, we are all on the same level of respect just specializing in different aspects of life.

Knowing this about me, would you ever expect me to on depend on a "responsive court system" to make myself "safe from undesired advances"? Do you think I would attempt to organize or join a "union" to keep myself safe and have the Union fight my battle?

To begin with I am not talking about someone persistently asking me for my phone number which might be an undesired advance. I am talking about the moment you as my boss, lay your hands on my body in a sexual way, that is an not an undesired advance, that is sexual assault. It doesn't need to have the power component to be called sexual assault but in this scenario it does.

Capeesh? — Bitter Crank

As can be expected: inferno non (N)

#MeToo
At age 18 I was working in a private home as a nanny, for the VP of University of Phoenix caring for her infant when I was sexually assaulted. Her Father, foreigner to the USA, who was in his 60's was visiting at her home for the holidays. The first time it happened I wondered if he realized what he was doing as I was stunned and he groped me while I was taking the baby from his arms, so I let it go. The next day, same situation only this time the child was in my arms and I turned to go away from him to which he groped both my breasts and then looked me in the eyes. I was creeped out and felt violated and began to get ill. I called my employer and said I needed to go as I was sick. She came home and I left. Do I say anything to her? This is her Dad for the love of God. Who is she going to believe? I was definitely going to lose my job before she would part ways with her Dad. Maybe they have different ways in his country? I was too physically ill to not say anything. So the next day when I arrived at work, I explained to her, in front of her Dad, what had happened, that it was intentional and I was not comfortable with his behavior. She spoke in Russian and he kind of shrugged at what she said and she told me he understood it was wrong and SHE said it wouldn't happen again and left for work.
She had me lined up to do a weekend of overnights to which I told her I would not stay overnight without my boyfriend staying with me as long as her Father was staying too. She said that was fine but the more I thought about it, the sicker I felt and gave her notice the following day. When she asked why I was quitting, I told her why and she accepted it. I wonder if presented as VP of a university, if she would act in the same way towards someone who speaks out about being molested by one of the professors.

We were talking about Clinton's relationship with Lewinsky. From what she's said, it wasn't unwanted. So unless there's something else I'm missing, it was neither harassment nor abuse (although certainly inappropriate, and infidelity on Clinton's part). — Michael

You are correct and I stand corrected in stating Monica endured sexual harassment because it was consenting by two adults.

Bill wielded his position of President to take advantage of what Monica was offering. Bill as President and in a position of power is and should be held to a higher standard which means no fraternizing with employees, let alone fornicating.

"That is an equal playing field and you were able to freely chose how to react without fear of losing your job." — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Huh? I was just referring to being sexually harassed. I'm not sure what "being on an equal playing field" has to do with it. — Michael

I am thankful you shared what happened to you as it was being sexually assaulted but my aim of this thread is for when an experience such as yours, happens by a future or current employer or person who holds professional power over you.
I hope that makes sense.

I've never understood this. What's the difference between being attracted to someone because of their power and being attracted to someone because of their looks, talent, or sense of humour? — Michael

Some women want to be part of the power of the man she is pursuing. Monica was looking for more than just a job at the White House and was submissive to Bill to get ahead in the West Wing. I don't know why she kept the blue dress. Maybe a memento? Maybe proof if her true story was questioned?

If someone is looking for love, they will see it in the eyes of the paper boy when he laughs at your little jokes and makes you blush as he wishes you a good day. You will see that paper boy daily, a habit that both will enjoy and that is where true attraction happens. Monica was looking for a power play not love. I am pretty sure she would have knelt for anyone that was President if given the chance.

Obviously there's a difference if there isn't actually any attraction and the interest is just in exploiting the power the other person has, but that doesn't seem to be what happened in this case (unless she's lying). — Michael

I haven't read Monica's' book but I do believe she was attracted but as I said, the attraction was to the power, not necessarily limited to who was in power.

Both just customers. — Michael

That is an equal playing field and you were able to freely chose how to react without fear of losing your job.

Perhaps, but that's not the same as abuse or harassment. — Michael

? If the person of power, makes unwanted sexual advances on a subordinate, that is the very definition of sexual harassment/ and or abuse. What am I missing in what you are saying?

I recall being assaulted at a nightclub once. Some girl walked past me, grabbed me by the balls, and then walked away.

I just thought it a really weird thing to do. — Michael

I think it is a really weird thing to do as well. Were you working for the nightclub? Was she a customer or a fellow employee?

Getting fired because someone lied about you, or because somebody just didn't like you and had made trouble for you, or because the boss just didn't like your long hair, or short hair, or whatever hair -- all sorts of reasons -- can be devastating. One suddenly finds one's self without an income, insurance, cut off from the social circle of work, etc. — Bitter Crank

This I understand but what you have explained can happen to anyone. I fail to see how it is specific to sexual harassment/and or abuse by people in the position of power.

Also very common is injury on the job or sickness because of the job because it was cheaper to have an unsafe, unhealthy workplace. — Bitter Crank

Again, I don't understand the relevance. Am I missing something? Can you correlate the two for me so I can see what you see?

This is considered normal by many people who howl about sexual harassment. — Bitter Crank

Grrrr....why does it feel like you're using the words "howl about sexual harassment" in an effort to convey a less than supportive attitude towards those that confront their abuser.

I wasn't clear. I meant to apply the rewards to the employee who accepts sexual exploitation as a way of getting ahead. In other words, an employee might find it advantageous to tolerate being exploited. It does happen that people screw their way upwards in an organization. The exploiter has generally already obtained a superior position. — Bitter Crank

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts to me. I do agree with you that there are people, men and women, who find screwing their way up in an organization is the way to go and tolerating exploitation is part of the deal. And you are right in that the exploiter usually has obtained a superior position.

Sexual exploitation is a specialty within the general practice of exploiting employees (aka, workers). "All workers can expect to be harassed on the job, sooner or later, whatever form the harassment takes. The reason for this is that most jobs are exploitation to start with. Sexual harassment is but a specialty." — Bitter Crank

No. All workers should not "expect" to be harassed on the job. It is not acceptable and it is okay to speak up about it and take your stand even if that means leaving your job.

If we are going to be against harassment and exploitation, then we should be against harassment and exploitation across the board. — Bitter Crank

I agree. This thread is about non consensual sexual harassment/ and or abuse by those in the position of power.

Personally I think it was probably her idea that they got caught so that she could become famous. But I, like everyone else in the public don't and probably will never know the whole story. — Sir2u

You are right that we will never know the whole story but Monica had enough "proof" to show that he cheated on his wife and that is about it. I never heard her cry fowl about being forced to do something against her will. Bill got in trouble for lying not for getting a bj though many thought it was lacking all class to treat the Oval office that way.

I really don't like the idea of anyone with authority using it like that, as a man it is not the correct way to behave no matter what position you hold. But shit happens. — Sir2u

I agree that no one of authority should use it that way, either gender. But shit happens

We were doing so well until that last part about shit happens. Shit never 'just happens'. It is always a conscious decision to sexually dominate someone when in a position of power.

They were consenting adults and she could have walked away. If she was as good a worker to have a position that put next to a president she could have found work anywhere. But she wanted and accepted the deal that was offered so that makes her just as responsible as the idiot with his fly open. — Sir2u

Yes they were both adults and consenting but I doubt if he was a news paper salesman she would have pursued him for any reason. It was because of his position of power that she fell for him which is why she never called rape or sexual molestation.

How would the people have seen things if Hilary had been the president and she was caught getting some nooky? Would the people have cried fowl as well? — Sir2u

Assuming that it was consensual sex, like Bill and Monica, we would probably shame her for infidelity like we did Bill.

You never heard of any other credible rape allegations against Bill Clinton? They've got their own Wiki page. Before one of the 2016 presidential debates, Trump brought a group of Bubba's accusers to a press conference. You don't remember that? — fishfry

I do remember the rape allegations against Bill Clinton and I also know what his wife Hillary said about those rape allegations, discounting each and every accuser until proven otherwise. What is your point? That sexual predators have people around them that know what the predator is doing and either looks the other way or enables the behavior to continue?

It's presumptuous to assume that a relationship is abusive or harassment just because one person has more power than another. — Michael

Just to be clear, I am not talking about people who are involved in a romantic relationship.
What I am suggesting is that the 'playing field' is not equal when one person holds professional power over another. The superior should be expected to rise to a stricter set of rules when interacting with those he manages.

That reminds me of a guy who was banned for behavior with warnings but was just having a really hard time in life. DragonSlayer. Maybe one day he will drop in here.

A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys — Hanover

Awwww Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff

I'm not making light of sexual harassment. Nobody should be pressured to fuck the boss or supervisor or co-worker--except where the rewards are going to be very attractive. — Bitter Crank

I am glad you are not making light of sexual harassment as it is not a light topic but one that is being brought out into the light of day.
Correct me if I am wrong but what I am reading is that you might believe that if the rewards are good enough, a boss or supervisor should be able to come onto an employee?

. But workers are at the mercy of their employers (thanks to corporate interests killing off unions). Workers have no job security (employment at will means you can be fired for any reason), no freedom of speech while on the job, and no real protection from unreasonable demands -- of any kind. — Bitter Crank

To start with I should let you know that AZ is a right to work state which also means the right to fire without reason given state. I believe Unions represent 4% of workers in AZ which seems very low in comparison to say, Minnesota or Illinois.

Having said that the idea that "workers are at the mercy of their employers" is true to a degree and that is what is shifting. Being groped by the manager on the job, as a matter of your shift interaction, is now something that can be confronted and that is what really needs to happen, on the spot confrontation.
Women and men who thought they had to 'put up' with this kind of lewd behavior because no one would believe them, are now understanding that there are many more in the shadows, that have tolerated such behavior in silence then they ever knew.

It is much more difficult to prove in a "he said, she said" report of harassment/and or molestation than it is to call the bastard/bitch out RIGHT when it happens. So maybe this movement will empower those being harassed/and or molested to call the aggressor out and not wait for someone in HR to make that decision for them. That is a possibility. Another possibility is for society to update their attitude that the days of the'good ole boys club' has come to an end. The days of offering up the justification that in submitting to the bosses advances will get you ahead in your workplace is no longer available. Men who believe that they can wield their power of making you a star employee from the end of their penis should understand that "unreasonable demands -- of any kind" are no longer acceptable but what is acceptable is them being called out for it.

Harvey Weinstein may be a creep, but Hollywood has been run by energetic, creative, ingenious egotistical, manipulative, jerks since the place started making movies. Why are we so surprised when one of these guys is called out for being a jerk?? — Bitter Crank

With all the allegations against Harvey, undercover FBI recordings, his wife leaving him and his expulsion from the only professional community he has ever known, I feel safe in saying that Harvey was more than a "jerk" but he is a sexual predator. He used his power and status to advance his own sexual demands, in a behavior pattern that lasted decades. What is surprising even to Harvey is that people are speaking up about him like never before. Even he is stunned and is saying "People make mistakes" and "deserve a second chance" well my friend, not one of these reports sound like a "mistake" but rather massive manipulation. And as far as deserving a "second chance"? A chance to do what and to whom?

Both are relevant and what did Monica to Bill is a perfect example of a person of power using that for/or against a man she has a sexual interest in. — Sir2u

So what you are saying is that Monica (22yrs old) and Slick Willey (49yrs old) were both of adult consensual age and both were of equal power between one another, using each persons political power to their own advantage? Monica's to advance her career and Willey to continue on his pattern of taking advantage of women who fall at his feet, without getting caught?

A little diddy about Jack and Diane
two American kids growin up in the heartland...

Does anyone else think this is a beneficial idea? It really isn't that farfetched and I think is the safest version of Artificial General Intelligence that can be created with human interests in mind. In essence, it would be able to identify with us in some regards, and that's what's really important, at least in my mind. — Posty McPostface

My question would be "beneficial" to whom? For the human I imagine the AI could pick up enough patterns of human behavior and catalog it and form some sort of logarithm that would get AI pretty close to what a human would think. But to what humans feel through emotions? What their beliefs are and how to process them using the discipline of Philosophy? I am not so convinced.

I think of AI being used in the setting of Hospice where long hours are spent with patients and family members, often times explaining the same process over and over. But not everyone hears it the same or is present during the first explanation. In that situation, I could see how an AI form could take over where the Doctors and the Nurses who gave the explanation, are needed more for actively dying patients then to repeat again and again what is happening to your loved one, but not their current focus patient. It is not to replace emotion but rather to convey information in a gentle but clear way.

Why does Bill Clinton not get held accountable by feminists? I have never understood this. — fishfry

What makes you think that Slick Willey gets a pass for what he did in the Oval Office?
Or are you saying that Bills' interaction with Monica Lewinsky made her a #MeToo ?
Both are relevant and what Bill did to Monica is a perfect example of a person of power using that for/or against a woman he has a sexual interest in. Thankfully, it was not rape but it was sexual harassment and/ or abuse in the work place, which Monica should not have to have endured. I wonder what would have happened if she would have filed a complaint of sexual harassment and/ or abuse by a sitting President.

The thing is not a single comment by a single person, but the sense in which the, apparently entire staff gets together in a big high-fiving mocking spectacle at someone else's expense. Not so much any individual comment, one then feels outnumbered, and also being that they are the ones with all of the substantial powas, things feel totally imbalanced.

Not much anyone can do about you guys all agreeing, and expressing it, ideally there would be more diversity is the only answer, but lets not just pretend it isn't so by not expressing it as much, and feeling thoughts and feelings to ourselves. — Wosret

Well Thank you for putting into words how I felt.

The fact also is that members of the mod team have distinct personalities and post in accordance with them just like regular members. There's no special uniformity among the mod team that differs significantly from the community as a whole. — Baden

I think this is what Benkei was trying to address in his post. There should be a higher standard for a moderator and an even higher standard for an administrator.

To me, it's an American vs non-American issue. — Michael

Spot on. This is exactly how it felt interacting in the gun-control discussion which I can handle. What I cannot handle or will choose not to handle, is moderators who chose to interact in the discussion, addressing fellow members but non moderators in a condescending manner.

I'm listening — Sapientia

Thank you for listening.