You're not aware that BLM leases to ranchers on public lands are at below market value and represent a taxpayer subsidy to the "ranching lifestyle", one that degrades public lands and externalizes the costs to the taxpayers? I guess you're not very informed on the subject. — Landru Guide Us

The BLM leases public land, BACK to the ranchers that have been there since before the BLM. Does that not sound a bit illogical to you?

We both know what would have happened if 150 brown people went to some federal building armed with assault rifles and occupied it by force. There's a hypocrisy here that's part of a greater narrative, which, constrained by the racial aspect itself, is this: the American state is afraid of white people. Seriously, the American state rarely ever does anything against white people that organize politically if they are right-wingers. They let you walk around with assault rifles anywhere you go, they arrest your activists instead of just executing them on the spot (e.g. Dylan Storm Roof), they give into most of your demands (e.g. Tea Party)... being white, right-wing and politically active in America is a dream come true for any politically minded person! It's a pity that the organized ones in America are bible thumping constitutionalists, otherwise everyone would be living in some communist utopia dreamland by now instead of trying to extend the rights of some millionaire ranchers. — discoii

Why you would suggest that "we both know" an unknown outcome, if the point of my reply was quite the opposite of what you were and are suggesting? I disagree with how you presented your OP when you include race as one of the deciding factors in how this issue will be resolved, which hasn't been as of yet, nor do I expect it to be. Ranchers by and large rarely take up a position that garners any attention unless they feel as though they have genuinely been wronged. The Hammond father and son, did as they said and turned themselves in, a second time, as requested by the Government. They never said they were above the law, they fought the charges of arson, lost their case and did the amount of time first determined and have since turned themselves in for a second go. Now if you think that $400 of damage, as the result of a legal controlled burn getting out of control is worth putting two men behind bars for 5 years, then we have a different sense of what justice is. I am quite sure that the insurance companies who paid for the damage to the town of Ferguson's businesses, city property and houses of Worship would have much rather paid the $400 in damage to grazing land out in Oregon.

What you are missing is proportionality and good old common sense. The first Federal Judge to hear the Hammond case called a minimum sentence of 5 years "grossly disproportionate" to the offense. Again, the fire the Hammond family members started was a legal controlled burn, not a deliberate action taken to cause harm and damage to the very land they graze cattle on. What happened in Ferguson was intentional, meant to cause damage to the businesses that operate there and harm to the government in place to keep the peace.

This is the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment - liberating a bird sanctuary from Big Gummit so that welfare ranchers can commit arson. — Landru Guide Us

It is a wildlife refuge that is only there because the ranchers back in the 1800's dug water ways thru the terrain to water their cattle and where cattle go, the birds will follow.

Could you please explain how they are "welfare ranchers"?

Committing arson is intentionally setting fire with the intent of destruction. Performing a controlled burn is very legal and replenishes the soil, giving it new life with the ash and providing a fire break (back burn) to remove the fuel in a defined space to stop a fire from spreading. Has anyone ever performed a controlled burn that got out of control? You betcha. Is everyone convicted of it? Hardly ever.

You have to love gun nuttery. — Landru Guide Us

Not all fools carry guns.

If they weren't white there'd be a huge pile of dead brown bodies now. Thank the Lord Jesus for that white skin! Yeehaw! — discoii

With all due respect discoii, you are race baiting with your OP. If you want to argue/debate/discuss the situation in Oregon that is fair game but to use the foundation of skin color to justify what has or hasn't happened seems to be a less than genuine approach.

Love it!

I worry that I'll slip off the edge and become an alcoholic or drug addict to deal with my anxiety. Not a pretty picture. — darthbarracuda

I cannot tell you how freakin adamant I have to be, about any Opiates to any medical/dental/ER Doctors. Saying I am allergic to Opiates should be enough right? No. I know that at any given time, any pain I will have to endure as a result of an injury or surgery CANNOT be controlled by any Opiates, any sister, brother or cousin of ANY Opiates. Have I said "No" to Opiates strong enough? I HIGHLY doubt it. The medical community knows their go to pain controller and it's my BIGGEST, deepest, darkest, enemy. The medical community got me addicted once and how easily I could fall victim to it again.
My husband, my Indians, my parents and my friends ALL know that I refuse to be exposed to that hell again and have promised me to hold the medical community accountable if I am unable to. Meaning a 24/7 vigil to MAKE sure I am not unknowingly, unwillingly, exposed to Opiates.
No, my only option for pain control is thru cannabis and that is the only pain management I will submit to.
Just when I think I have all my bases covered, along comes this:Kratom
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kratom-an-addict%e2%80%99s-alternative-is-found-to-be-addictive-itself/ar-BBo8YFe?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
Which if you read the above link, is available without a prescription, without the addict even knowing. I just Thank God that I am allergic to alcohol because to be confronted with that addiction, everyday, in every bar, many restaurants and almost every celebration on the calendar, would be incredibly hard, almost impossible.

Baden: November?
TheWillowOfDarkness: January 05
SIR2U: January 22
Tiff: March 03
Hanover: May 21
Sapientia: June 11
Michael: June 15
Monitor: September 12
John: September 16
darthbaracuda: October 10
BitterCrank: November 01
Baden: November?

Baden: January 01
TheWillowOfDarkness: January 05
SIR2U: January 22
Tiff: March 03
Hanover: May 21
Sapientia: June 11
Michael: June 15
Monitor: September 12
John: September 16
darthbaracuda: October 10
BitterCrank: November 01

Yay! Keep adding your birthday and we will get you on the list!

"Hopelessly?" Really? Have a little faith in me!
Okay Hanover when is your birthday?
I believe it is standard to be mm/dd, suggesting that it is month/date and if you wanted to include year it would be mm/dd/yy.
Oh look when I do cross reference both you and Sapientia have no birthdate listed.
Come on now, fess up, just how old are you? :D

If we could put together a list of peoples Birthdays, it would make wishing everyone a happy year older a bit easier! :D
I am willing to keep track of peoples birthdays and let folks know. Or I could track back to our old sand box, write down and cross reference all 100 members listed birthdates. :D
So what's the date?

• Baden: 01/01
• Tiff: 03/01

Your first reply has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Congratulations and Thank you for your contribution!

Yes. Thank goodness there was an armed under cover Police officer there to take out the shooter.

I share Ciceronianus the White's attitude with a bit of a twist.
My mantra for the last 20 years has been: that if YOU set up an expectation for anyone other than yourself, prepare to be disappointed. Rather instead set no expectations for another and allow yourself to be gently surprised.
It works too. I know that when I start to feel a disappointment in another creeping in, I take the time to search back to where it was that I set up that expectation and make note, not to do it again. I am by no means perfect in exercising this mantra at all times but I have found I am healthier, emotionally, when I am aware that I am the one actively responsible, for the way I am feeling.

I am impressed with the idea of Happiness being U shaped. Thank you for taking the time to share it. :)

A portion of your OP has been posted on The Philosophy Forum Facebook page. Congratulations and Thank you for your contribution!

Merry Christmas~

{{{hyena}}} My thoughts are with you as I know how absolutely fond he was of you~
MarsMan or Oli and I exchanged ideas at length, the possibilities that came about from this thread and after reading thru it, I realize that he now knows the truth. Maybe he will find us here...I believe if anyone could, it would be him.
{{{Oli}}} May your soul continue to light up the world in the colorful way you always did in our lives~
(L)

Arpaio has been accused of
abuse of power
misuse of funds
failure to investigate sex crimes
improper clearance of cases
unlawful enforcement of immigration laws
election law violations
and others.

Sheriff Arpaio has been:
found guilty of racial profiling in federal court
has a court appointed monitor to oversee his office's operations
has jails twice ruled unconstitutional
The U.S. Department of Justice concluded that Arpaio oversaw the worst pattern of racial profiling in U.S. history and filed suit against him for unlawful discriminatory police conduct. — Bitter Crank

Fortunately none of the above accusations come as a surprise to me as I have seen evidence, personally witnessed, Joe's abuse of power in 'getting back' at anyone who stands up to show resistance to his unlawful attacks. It bothers me greatly when I see people intimidated, people like ME, who are unwilling to stand up for the person in his crosshairs, for fear of retaliation by the Sheriff.

No one who witnessed a neighbor's civil rights being violated was able (made the choice) to speak out about what had happened, the way in which it happened and how it could have been any one of us he wanted revenge on. What was really intimidating, in fact mind blowing, was that the person who's civil rights were violated, was one of his own. He brought down the force of the law on a woman who had served as an officer, on his force for 30 yrs and had retired on a ranch up the way.

No trust in the man or the department he runs. Period. He runs the most corrupt department in the country. No, really. What he has done to the Latino population in Arizona is embarrassing as well as dysfunctional as they come. His M*A*S*H* unit for animals takes in millions in donations for the care of confiscated animals, yet there is no account for how much money has been donated and where that money has been spent. No accountability for the money gained in the sale of those animals if they are not returned to the citizens. He is the definition of hustle.

I would say that he lines his pockets with the lives of those he exploits but I will let Federal Justice Murray Snow make the final decision on Joe's lawbreaking ways finally being exposed and there is a chance that a great many Phoenicians will feel validated and if not? Go figure, we ARE talking about Joe, ya know?

Statements of this kind from the good Sheriff represent, to me, either an effort on the part of some in law enforcement to cover their asses or an admission that they cannot, or will not, do their jobs. — Ciceronianus the White

It seems to me that he is of the old school here in the West, where it is believed that an armed society, is a polite society, Just sayin...;)

There is a surge out here in Arizona as I am sure is happening in other states, for weapons used for self protection and classes on the safety in using those firearms have tripled. That tells me two things, one people feel personally threatened by the unknown risk of 'the bad guy' and the lack of trust in our leader as with the swipe of a pen he can control what guns are legal and the ammo necessary for the firearm.

"Local gun dealers are trying to cope with a massive increase in demand for guns, ammunition, accessories and firearms training classes. They say there are two reasons for the surge: a spate of recent terrorist attacks and the president's subsequent speech, during which he made renewed calls for more gun control."
That is a quote from http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20151210/article/151219971?tc=ar

There is call once again for firearms to be allowed in class rooms and how to handle that.
http://azdailysun.com/news/national/university-of-texas-could-allow-concealed-handguns-in-class/article_269557d8-0978-5cae-977c-4f7b4e59c4e8.html

By the way, conservative Republicans called for and got the No Fly list, but don't let facts get in the way of your narrative. — Landru Guide Us

I don't see (R) or (D) when it comes to an infringement on the rights of an American citizen.

Residing in Maricopa County, AZ we are protected by the Maricopa County Sheriff Officers, who is led by Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Here is what he wants us, as private citizens, to do with our firearms.

“My goal of utilizing 250,000 citizens armed with concealed weapons is to stop the carnage, stop the killing before cops arrive,” said Sheriff Arpaio in a video posted to social media.

The sheriff’s goal of getting 250,000 armed citizens would be just under 10 percent of the Valley's population.

Many gun owners agree that more armed citizens might be the answer.

From the top down...

Paul Ryan is trying to strike a balance between not reacting emotionally to what the gun control advocates use as their platform, the crisis of the moment, BEFORE it is even over. As soon as a gun is known to be involved, they latch on to tightening gun rights.
In voting down the bill, that would paint with a VERY broad brush, that if someone is on a No Fly List that they should also be banned from purchasing or possessing a firearm would violate American citizens Constitutional right to do so.
Simply based upon the unconstitutional foundation in which the No Fly list was compiled. Tens of thousands of people are on the No Fly List but for the American citizen, they are promised due process and suspicion does not satisfy the governments right to infringe on your individual rights. There are many, MANY people that should never have been put on the No Fly List and that is a nightmare to try to challenge but to sweepingly take away a individuals Constitutional right would be illegal.

Begging the question: Why? Why limit gun ownership and possession one case and not another? — Landru Guide Us

There are a lot of limits on who can legally own and posses a firearm, I assure you that I am not the only person prohibited from doing so. If you are over the age of 18, you are allowed to posses a firearm unless you are disqualified by one of the nine categories listed below:

*Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding on year;
•Fugitives from justice;
•Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance;
•Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution;
•Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
•Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces;
•Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship;
•Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders; and
•Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Though I felt slighted by the exclusion because of my medical choices, when I look at the others who are excluded under the same category, I understand and am amicable to the laws as they have sat since 1968.

Did I mention that all of the males here at the ranch are Archers as Marksman?

In case you are not an Archer, the arrow in the yellow ring, has another arrow shot directly into the first arrow. Not bad eh?
Now before we start controlling bow and arrows, let's remember that primitive bow and arrows can be found and forged from elements of the earth, the world over.

What the legislators should be praying for is the courage to do what any rational legislature would do, even if it means they are bounced from office in the next election: enact laws that tighten access to assault weapons and hand guns--laws that are as tight as the NRA's grip on these bastards' balls. — Bitter Crank

I am afraid that prayers are not going to give them the level of courage they need. It is going to take serious hard work, at every community level, to change anything regarding a limitation on firearms that are not already in place. Much like the Chinese Finger Puzzles, the harder the two ends pull, the tighter and smaller that middle ground gets.

We know the solution, right? One of the two opposing sides is going to have to willingly give in to the others idea in order to move anywhere. As divided as our country is, I just don't see the gun right advocates giving in and the sales of firearms and ammo since the attack in Paris are feverishly, perversely high. At the same time I do not see the gun control advocates backing down.

So tightly connected we are, stuck in the puzzle of our own making. Ironic thing about humanity is, that neither side will willingly give in, even though they know it is the only way to a compromise.

images upload
I tried but the link is just not working for me.

Just for the record: I live in Arizona and the law allows individuals, to legally carry a concealed weapon, without a permit.
However there are in fact individuals who have lost their right to own a firearm. I am one of those people because as long as I am a Legal Medical Cannabis patient and Cannabis is still against the Federal Law, the gun dealer would have to decline the sale of a firearm to me, because in the Federal Governments eyes, Cannabis consumption is against the law and they cannot sell to someone they know is breaking the law.

The reasons you expressed are exactly the same here in AZ. Somewhere along the way, the Peace Officer became the Police Officer who has now been militarized. It seems like a losing battle here with Sheriff Joe because any other person, who has done what he has, would be sitting in a Federal prison but I digress.

Today the talking heads suggested that the Police Officers we have on the street, are not only our first line of defense, but they are having to morph from being a Guardian of our promised security to being the Warrior that has to be willing to take a bullet for what is often a very unappreciative public that no longer trusts those who are called to "help".

Privately armed citizens are able to react within seconds of an attack, those we have to 'call in' might be able to arrive at an active shooter situation in somewhere between 5 and 15 minutes. The majority of the massacres are happening within the response time of a privately armed citizen, rather than a prolonged siege.

Is it possible to create a room for sponsors of sorts? I utilized the "Green Room" quite a bit and it just seemed like a place that people knew what to expect and it was rarely Philosophy but rather a community table of something as simple as chit chat or deep thoughts about what in a member's personal life might be playing out.
Yes, I suggest this for personal reasons but I do so miss that back booth at the pub~ Almost as much as I miss my hometown of Chicago and the family it holds. Surprising to read what I just wrote, but it is a true feeling for me. It tells me just how much you all mean to me and that, THAT, I cherish~
(L)

I certainly don't call the police to my house. — Moliere

If I may be so bold to ask: why you don't call the police to your house?

Though there has been an uproar over the idea of prayer being the way to fix this problem, I do believe in the full quote that I read which was "God did not create terrorism, man did, so please do not look to God to fix terrorism."
At the same time, we are a nation who respects all faiths, so please pray if you wish but prayers are not going to settle this war between humanities.

Finding out that Medicare and Medicade will drain my Dad of his last dollar before he will be eligible for Skilled nursing.
"Looks like we are in for stormy weather, that ain't no cause to leave, just lie here in my arms, let it wash away the pain, and it feels like rain, it feels like rain...can you feel it?"

I would really like the agree or (l) button to be put back up. I find myself agreeing with SO much that ssu is saying that it would be repetitive to say what he has already said.

You might want to hold your fire, so to speak. The "armed polite society" was most certainly at play in this shooting, you are just choosing to focus on those with an agenda, to harm innocent people using firearms AND explosives in this case.
Where is your call for laws against fireworks where enough explosives can be extracted from to cause mass casualties?
Where is your call for every remote controlled toy car to be destroyed because it was going to be used as tripping device on the explosives?
The firearm is easy for you to rail against because it cannot rail back. How about looking at the people behind the firearms first?

As BitterCrank suggests there are topics such as my thread on "An armed society is a polite society" where I have learned to go in wearing a helmet because I can tell that there will be incoming fire AND there was a time where I would have taken it personally. I know how taking a reply or replies personally (sometimes it is unavoidable) can build and cause a burnout of sorts.

Over time I have realized that the exchange of ideas, the argument presented against each others ideas, is all about 'ideas' not about each other. If you find that someone is dissecting your ideas, that is a positive step in the discipline we call Philosophy, if you find that someone is dissecting you, that is a negative effect on the communication of a forum and should be reported. Sometimes I wish there was a way to see these things brewing before someone gets burnt. I guess we have to be willing to talk about how we feel, before we feel like we are being cast aside.

Thank you for your being here, sharing and hopefully we will read you on the boards again soon!
Oh and anytime you feel the need for your own helmet?
Just drop me a PM and I'll toss you one for I have collected more over time than I will ever be able to put to good use. ;)

It is said that if you stare long enough into the eye of a horse you will see the reflection of your soul~
I have loved horses all my life and I still do. I am a horse lover and loved to ride but such as life is, we had to part ways to move on. Dasher needed a daily job so he is up in Northern AZ working for an old cowboy who needed a long distance horse to drive cattle. When he was with me, I rarely asked him to play the 'horsey' roll but when I did, he put on one hell of a show~ God what an amazing animal~ Beautiful soul~ (L)

Dasher was my partially broken Thoroughbred and we were going between 20 and 25 mph when we were approaching the fence you can see in the picture (which is a 6 rail fence, the arena we were in was a 4 rail fence) and he took a hard left, throwing me into a hard right, into and through the fencing, bending the rail I landed on into a right angle. Flown out by Life Flight to a Trauma center where it was determined that surgery was not an option and it was left to heal with pain control.

I'll have an Expresso please~ :D

Jennifer Givovanni
December 1, 2015

WARNING! SCAM ALERT! Be on the lookout for this girl and her friend. They are hanging out around the meijer and Wal-Mart parking lots. When you are putting your groceries away they ask you for a ride to McDonald's. They are very convincing and very hot! Once in your car this one takes her clothes off and starts climbing all over you, while she keeps you busy, the other one takes your wallet. I've had mine taken on the 7th, 8th, 10th, twice yesterday and probably two more times tomorrow. Wal-Mart has wallets for $2.99, but I found some at the dollar store for .99¢ so I bought all they had. These two harlots not only take your wallet, but you never even make it to McDonald's so I've already lost 11lbs. keep a lookout for them (I find lunch time and around 5:30 the best times)