I think mental "muscles" are indeed exercised in addressing such questions, and such muscles may be beneficial. But also, perhaps, it sometimes distances itself too greatly from life and the world and becomes pretense. — Ciceronianus

I think a fair number of people argue for sport and enjoy the ego boost of imposing an argument they have learned to make; similar to studying a chess opening for traps and variations.

"Why is there something rather than nothing?" — Ciceronianus

Something was possible and time passed. Next question.

There's something between determinism and randomness. — Agent Smith

I go a step further and argue "randomness" is a strawman that disposes of the concept of 'will' for the sake of argument. Fundamentally, the world is probabilistic and negatively determined by what's impossible. If I saw a person acting randomonly I doubt my first impression would be an individual exercising free will.

1. Some things don't have an effect (e.g. me pushing the Eiffel tower won't do jack shit to it!).
Ergo,
2. Some things have no causes. — Agent Smith

I think that's a fair summation that points to a break down in the imaginary casual chain.

Really, there's only to 2 conditions for a cause under my argument. The event was not impossible and enough time passed for it to occur. Negative determination.

This doesn't make sense to me. What's a no choice scenario then? — Agent Smith

The basis for determinism; such as the planets going around sun. The physical forces are overwhelming enough to rule out alternate paths and the subjects(planets) lack the capacity for agency. It's a deterministic or 'no choice' model.

Magnifique! Being able to, in a sense, predict the future only makes sense if the predictor means to make adjustments for it. Free will!? — Agent Smith

Thanks, I just thought of this one. It is compelling if you accept evolutionary selection as influential enough to demand an explanation. In order to be an advantage the predictor has to 'successfully' make adjustments and not just believe they are making adjustments.

That's right! "I don't know" is an acceptable response to a query. Me either! However, it would be better if we knew. — Agent Smith

On occasion we do make choices which are rationalized after the fact. I don't think the whole of determinism is without some rational basis. But, extending the observation to suggest every decision is made and then rationalized over extends the evidence.

↪Cheshire Good responses! — Agent Smith

Well, thanks. Arguing for secular free will has never been easy. The belief that freedom implies randomness shuts down the discussion more than often. Or the notion that free will should always be realized as to explain every aspect of one's condition. I acknowledge there are many influences and contextual pressures that drive outcomes, but if they can be understood and accounted for; then these are not proper illusions.

...that worked well. — Banno

Never hear people mention the under reaction happens on an exponential curve and the over reaction on a logistic curve. When something fails to contain the virus and there is no virus the result is minimal, but the opposite means one step the other direction results in a greater negative result.

1. If not determinism, then what? Randomness, an easy answer, but we don't want that, do we? A between-Scylla-and-Charybdis situation. Is being capable of randomness freedom? — Agent Smith

People aren't billiard balls. An influenced or compelled choice is still a choice.

2. Causality-wise, we want not to be effects but we don't mind being causes. In other words, we wish to be outside the casual web but we also want to be able to influence the course of the future. Is this possible? — Agent Smith

Certainly, being able to imagine a future seems like a useless adaptation for a choiceless creature.

3. Why would the mind create an illusion of freedom if, in fact, we aren't free? — Agent Smith

It does have to explain what we have done and sometimes we honestly don't know. We have the illusion of an illusion in some sense in order for reality to remain stable.
Probably, true.

5. How appealing is being semi-autonomous? We have free will but only in a limited sense. — Agent Smith

It's free will in a normal sense. Do you want to decide to breath every ten seconds?

6. Do we really want free will? Daoism for example, from a certain angle, seems to be averse to the idea of doing what(ever) we want. Go with the flow is not exactly a call to claim one's freedom. — Agent Smith

Who other than yourself could make you write the above?

A reasonable definition of freedom dissolves the debate entirely. Just as an unreasonable one settles it in favor of determinism. The physical world appears probabilistic where determination is actually negative. In other words only the possible things happen, but not happening and not possible aren't the same thing. Come at me bro.

It’s not looking good. I suspect that they’ll widen the goal posts, determine that those who are fully vaccinated are in fact not, and exclude the vaccinated from various aspects of normal life until they get the next Pfizer wonder drug. — NOS4A2

What for?

I can see why they would have minimum time requirements however if a scout has met the minimum time requirements and has fulfilled all the other requirements for becoming an Eagle Scout there is no reason to hold him back from the rank of Eagle Scout especially if holding him back will take him past his 18th birthday at which point he will not be eligible for the rank of Eagle Scout. Scoutmasters should be banned from doing that. — HardWorker

It sounds a bit weird. Why disincentivize the troop? Part of the achievement occuring is to encourage others. They may think there's an outside chance they will be denied in the end by no fault of their own. And it doesn't teach patience when the outcome is unchanging. It teaches an expectation of unfair treatment; which might be helpful; but not fun.

Yes. Your image of me. — baker

Poster convinced vaccines don't correlate well with disease outcomes. Freely equivocates as needed.

Alright, what would you prefer.

The only problem is that with covid in particular, the "effectiveness" of the vaccine would be about the same as the course of the disease without the vaccine, and then the government could take the credit and make vaccination mandatory indefinitely. — baker

This part is false

↪Cheshire What are you talking about?? — baker

Generally, comments are directed toward the quoted bit at the top. Can I confuse anything else for you?

At this forum, not once have I seen that a pro-vaccer said that people should get vaccinated for their own sake.
Not once has anyone who has told me to get vaccinated said that I should do it to protect my health.
Not once. Not a single time. — baker

The obvious remains obvious. Covid was pretty unpleasant even after be vaxxed. Like, keeping your brain on a light simmer for 2 weeks. I never had any respiratory effects, so antidotally I think it was worth the trouble in my experience. If you'd like respiratory distress then definitely don't get it.

In relation to this pandemic, compulsory vaccinations, and vaccine passports. — NOS4A2

Oh ok, but in principle the government can do these things and under the proper conditions you think they are reasonable. Just for clarification. There's a big difference between arguing the case in general and whether or not Covid should qualify.

Did you answer the question or no?

The point is it is morally wrong for a government to coerce people by threatening to take their rights away, and if they do not abide, to take their rights away. — NOS4A2

Do you mean to say in this particular case or during all or most outbreaks of disease?

One can show prejudice against any category of people, of whatever status. This category of people in particular, for whatever reason, do not want these chemicals injected into their body, as is their right. — NOS4A2

No one wants chemicals injected into their body. They aren't special in this regard.

Other categories of people are required to prove their medical history, which is no one else’s business. — NOS4A2

The subtext this carries is what puts me off. The sentiment of a civil rights struggle mixed with protection of ones core privacy is the definition of overkill. It seems like the subtle manipulation of emotion rather than sound reason. Which is suspect in any case I've found it employed.

But because of their status the unvaccinated are being denied access to many components of ordinary life, even if they are at relatively no risk of illness, or have antibodies, and have zero coronavirus on their person. — NOS4A2

Again, "ordinary life" could mean a lot of things when in reality we are mostly talking about dining and entertainment venues.

None of it stops the spread of coronavirus. — NOS4A2

Alright well we have a vaccine and generally the strategy with that tool has been to give it to people. Do you suppose vaccine uptake will increase by eliminating the mandates?

I acknowledge it's unfair and manipulative. Give people enough of a tax credit and they'll take any shot you give them. And it compensates them for the benefit to society it provides. In the US we already killed off the most vulnerable. 1 in every 100 over 65 I think was the summation. So, personally I think my sentiment is actually closer to your argument than mine. But, I stand by the objections to it's being over sensationalized.

What twisting of truth? — baker

You keep pretending that the holes in the system are the system for the sake of an argument. There is no provision for an exception granted to infected persons who happen to be vaccinated. Can infected persons be allowed unintended admission? Yes, it isn't a perfectly exclusionary distinction. The "twist" is seeing this as hypocrisy instead of a statistical limitation.

An extreme example would be arguing that not everyone is required to wear a parachute because they don't open on occasion.

The mandates I speak of are official orders from governments. These orders require private establishments to enforce discriminatory government policy, or risk fine and other punishments. These policies have been implemented around the globe, if you weren’t aware. — NOS4A2

Generally "discriminatory" is considered an unjustified distinction, like race, age, or sex. Refusal to participate in a public health matter is a justified distinction even if considered disagreeable. The threshold for keeping an endemic wave from spiking is pretty sensitive and the R value of the mutations seems to be increasing. Lastly, people just aren't used to having to manage outbreaks of infection. Power granted to the government regarding matters of public health have been understood to be necessary for centuries. If a man wants to live as an island then he ought not complain when finding himself on one.

In the hands of a stupid government the principle gives us a stupid policy. When a fully vaccinated but infected man shows up at a establishment with a vaccine passport, he gets let in, increasing the likelihood of spread and illness. A vaccine passport does not indicate health or antibodies, and it is terribly discriminatory. — NOS4A2

A private establishment chooses to statistically reduce the risk to it's staff and patrons. Discriminatory? If one's identity is dependant on resisting public health measures, then it's probably a good time to take a little inventory about what really matters.

800th time, a vaccine doesn't have to be perfect to be relevant. These arguments aren't compelling unless you've already made your mind up.

They do. All you need is a covid pass, and then you can do anything you want. You can be a superspreader. — baker

Being able to circumvent public safety is not the same as the rules encouraging it. Full stop, there's no counter argument. Does twisting the truth achieve anything?

Yes. The problem now is what to believe, for everyone. Our military (Canada) admitted that in the early stages of the pandemic (spring 2020) they saw, and acted upon, an opportunity to use Covid as a propaganda experiment. They admitted this, it is not theoretical. — Book273

They admitted to a counter disinformation operation that targeted a few domestic social media users. Considering disinformation was crippling to the initial hopes of preventing an endemic phase; getting out in front of it does seem like a good idea and within the scope of national security. It just backfired pretty bad , based on what a 5 min google search turns up.

This is our government and for some reason, I am supposed believe the shit they shovel my way? — Book273

They tried to subvert the public conversation and couldn't manage it for more than 3 months? Doesn't sound like much of a threat in general and nearly irrelevant a year later. There's plenty of work that has been done by epidemiologist, so I don't really have any issue finding reliable sources of information.

I'm more concerned with conservative media needing some way to frighten people so they don't rationally question their leadership. They seem to want to frame the whole world into good and evil like a bible story and then sell the emotional relief of being on the side of the "good guys". It's been shocking to see how many people never grow out of this childlike view of the world. The level of fear, anger, and hatred they seem to be forced to maintain has to be devastating to their quality of life. Personally, I don't trust anyone that tells me who to hate.

↪Cheshire Covid would be considered a plague. The response created a new world order. Just because I am unconcerned about Covid does not mean everyone is. The fear out there is real, as are the steps taken to remain safe from the perceived threat. The world has changed based on these perceptions. The validity of the base is no longer relevant, it is the reality now. — Book273

It's only recently we have had the luxury of not living during some disease outbreaks. In large part due to the long-term proven efficacy of vaccination. Arguably, Covid was things getting back to normal; except used as a political football because lying outright is no longer disqualifying apparently.

The context in which this makes sense is the assumption of an unknown tangential argument that regards the "single mind" you periodically reference. If "change is a sensation" is an end in itself then I'm lost. And very much ok with that;

No, it is a substantial conclusion. It is not an imprecise way of speaking. Some things are not made of sensations - minds, for instance. And some things are. And change, I have shown, is one of them. — Bartricks

Fantastic. What absurd implication is all this intended to support?

How is this not a new world order? — Book273

Because that's not what that phrase refers to; Bretton Woods was a new world order; the fall of the Soviet Union etc; we make children take a couple dozen vaccinations before starting school. Been doing it for years. And I thought you said a plague was a "laughable" concern? Now it's the already here? People have some Protestant-entertainment wrestling concept of reality. Global dynamics aren't simple.

The federal and state vaccine mandates prohibit the unvaccinated from working or entering certain establishments. Is there such a mandate for the infected? — NOS4A2

The health code?

In many places the requirement to enter an establishment is a vaccination pass, not a covid test. So how do the rules prohibit the infected from entering? — NOS4A2

They don't test everyone at the door is not a rule permitting the vaccinated infected to mingle. It's bare min. attempt to reduce the odds. Confusing the two is beyond reasonable.

The likelihood that it progresses to that level is laughable. Our response to it IS threatening civilization as we know it. Welcome to the New World Order. That means the old world order is dead, so yeah, civilization has indeed changed, for the worst from where I sit. — Book273

Well, my point was that your position doesn't acknowledge the legitimacy of the threat. So, I guess we are agreeing by demonstration. I have no idea what you have in mind regarding NWO; the irony is it includes a vague threat to civilization. There's two or arguably three things that seem to wipe people out in bunches; famine, disease, and war. It's the middle one, so what are you talking about?

It’s not a cold, though, it’s SARS-CoV-2. Even the asymptomatic can spread the disease. The rules permit that a person infected with this disease can congregate with the uninfected, so long as he has his vaccination. This is because the rules are stupid. — NOS4A2

What rules, where? I tested positive after a couple of vaxes and the CDC is pretty clear about the directive to not go spreading it via 7 day to 2 week q;tine.

Pro-tip: Keep a bottle of garam masala around. If you have a fever and can't smell it anymore then it may be testing time.

in the ER; not the pharmacy.

Sure, but no where near as well as we are being led to believe. So we are mandated to receive a vaccine we don't want (otherwise they wouldn't have to mandate it), that should help, sort of. It was a weak premise when it was initiated and is weakening further as time passes. First the vaccine, then a booster, then maybe another booster, then, and likely, an annual booster too. This is poor medicine to mandate on people. — Book273

I don't think your position fully appreciates the nature of the threat. True, we aren't being wiped out to the point of threatening civilization. However, if you wait till then you are an idiot. A global existential threat is posed by anything that can spread that quickly and attack the respiratory system. It spreads like wildfire and occasionally stops people from breathing. It's not a good combination of things to ignore; and to ignore it with a tool to stop it in hand looks like a regret waiting to emerge.

Vaccinated go to the ICU less than the Unvaccinated, true. However, of the 20% that feel symptoms, 75% will not end up at the hospital. Of the 25% that end up at the hospital, most will go home from the emergency department. Yes, the rest will go to ICU, and some will die. Some in the ICU are also vaccinated, and some of them will die as well. — Book273

There is no "however" being demonstrated. It's more of a "look over here". The vaccine keeps hospital admissions down. Seems like a worthwhile goal considering the state of our healthcare "marketplace".

But if you agree that we are aware of change by sensation, then this - once it is acknowledged as well that sensations can only resemble sensations - establishes that change is a sensation.

You seem to think that if that applies to other things too, that somehow refutes the analysis. How? That's like arguing that water is not made of molecules, because any case that seeks to show water is made of molecules will apply to all manner of other things too. — Bartricks

I think we passed by here before already. "Change is a sensation" isn't an informative conclusion. At best an imprecise way of speaking.

It's that bit that prevents events from ever totally repeating a non-specific je ne sais quoi.

I propose a test. If JTB correctly describes knowledge then every permutation should correctly describe some type of thought one might have?
Unjustified False Disbelief - unwarranted skepticism
Unjustified True Disbelief - unwarranted yet accurate skepticism
etc.

If it is a system of measuring thoughts and not just an overfit method for the things believed to be knowledge.

Now, do you agree that we have a sensation of change? If no, why not? — Bartricks

I agree a change might be known by a sensation. I don't think this is helpful in defining or understanding the notion of change; because it is so general as to nearly apply to anything.

And if there is a sensation of change - and there does appear to be - do you agree that sensations can only resemble sensations and nothing else? — Bartricks

No, I don't think this is correct. Some sensations are very different, so equating them in this fashion is confusing and misleading. A sensation of self-immolation does not resemble a sensation of watching a pendulum swing and yet they are both types of change.

The concept 'true' is an artefact of human language and it (mostly) means something like 'everyone clever enough would agree'. I argue it means this on the grounds that this is the use context in which we find the term. — Isaac

Interesting, considering it's a logical operator. Really, it's the only part of JTB that isn't dependant on the frame of reference. I always read it as justified, believed and also happened to be true.

We thought we knew X but we were wrong. We didn't know X because not X. — Michael

Right, I'm suggesting a present tense where we don't assume to know the future. We think we know X but we may be wrong. We may be wrong because we can't know all future observations which involve X. I understand the difference in the words intent and the imperfect state of people knowing things.

Gettier's demonstrations show JTB isn't precisely exclusive for every bit of information one can imagine. Considering the set JTB had to tackle it did a pretty good job and still is a good jumping off point. Personally, I think 'belief' seems a bit unnecessary. I could write something down that is knowledge. I could parish and it could remain. Would that information cease to be knowledge?

Doesn't this all get resolved if it's acknowledged that on occasion knowledge is wrong because humans make mistakes. I think knowledge can be improved; which means it must be imperfect. So, it's justified true belief, and occasionally a mistake.

Take yellow. We are aware of yellow by sensation. Yet we can infer that an object is yellow despite never having seen it. — Bartricks

We don't infer the "sensation" of it being yellow though; I don't see something brown and infer the fruit was previously yellow by some retro sensation experience. Even saying change 'can be' a sensation seems to confuse a thing with the sight of it. Do we then suppose all sensations are changes? That might improve the case.

I am talking about what change itself is. You are talking about when people infer it. I am talking about the 'it' they are inferring. — Bartricks

Right, but it was never a sensation in the case of having been inferred. If change occurs apart from being a sensation, then your conclusion is underqualified.