There have been a number of attempts to derive/justify the Born rule, including the self-locating uncertainty approach that Carroll and Sebens develop (I haven't looked at their paper, but they probably cite earlier works in the same vein). Not everyone is convinced that such justifications are (a) not circular, and (b) do not smuggle in assumptions that are not present in the starting interpretation. But adjudicating this debate is way beyond my pay grade. — SophistiCat
I just want to take issue with your characterization of probabilistic theories as "acausal." What you are talking about is causal determinism, and the keyword here is determinism. You can, of course, put your foot down and insist that causality necessarily implies determinism, but, as far as your arguments here are concerned, causality may as well equal determinism, because you are not actually talking about any aspect of causality other than it being deterministic. So for your purposes, causality is a redundant concept, since all that you are talking about is determinism. And I suspect that you only bring it up for rhetorical purposes (everyone wants to preserve causality in our theories, right?) — SophistiCat
Probability can still be baked in the universe even with a causal interpretation. The cause may be inherently probabilistic, which is one of the possible interpretations of the Bohm quantum potential initial conditions. Hence, the reason Bohm suggested that his interpretation is causal yet non-deterministic. — Rich
well if you accept that the universe is not causally closed, the whole problem goes away. But apparently that is too high a price. — Wayfarer
No, this is what we would be committed to if we interpreted light as a flow of classical particles. But the Copenhagen interpretation does not do that. — SophistiCat
It is committed to the same thing that the fully-quantum theory is committed to, plus a little extra - but that extra does not show up until the measurement occurs at the detectors, at which point the "extra" makes no observable difference. — SophistiCat
You do not need to assume causality, or anything else besides the operation of standard quantum mechanics, in order to obtain that result. You said so yourself: the Copenhagen interpretation makes the same prediction. It follows the standard solution all the way up to the moment of detection, at which point it says that the superposition state collapses into one of the eigenstates - acausally, as you say, but following the Born rule for probabilities. And since in this case the superposition is degenerate, the result is perfectly predictable, even assuming the Copenhagen interpretation: the wavefunction has to collapse into one particular position eigenstate with probability 1, simply because there is only one non-zero eigenvalue. — SophistiCat
So where do you get probability 0.5? And what does this have to do with causality? I don't understand. — SophistiCat
n the MZI experiment the standard quantum mechanics calculation gives the probabilities at the detectors as 0 and 1. Any interpretation of quantum mechanics had better yield the same probabilities, otherwise it doesn't even qualify as an interpretation. Are you saying that the Copenhagen interpretation predicts probabilities other than 0 and 1 in this case, or fails to predict anything specific? — SophistiCat
(As an aside, this very special case where probabilities neatly collapse into all or nothing is uniquely favorable to the Everett interpretation, which otherwise faces a prima facie problem with specific observed frequencies of outcomes. In contrast to the Copenhagen interpretation, which happily assumes the reality of probabilistic outcomes as a matter of principle, the Born rule is difficult to justify in the context of Many Worlds. When they are not making popular presentations, like the one by David Wallace that you linked, Everettians tie themselves into knots trying to make sense of these probabilities. And this is where, I am afraid, the prima facie appeal of the MWI as the "no-interpretation" interpretation dissipates.) — SophistiCat
It is necessary to discard the concept of "things" (as determinists continue to insist on) and treat quantum as a process that is in continuous flux. How does a process become a thing? That is exactly the role of the mind as it seeks to create a canvas to create on. — Rich
Why do you continue to insist that quantum theory = randomness? — Rich
Bohmian is causal but not deterministic — Rich
Are you suggesting that there is an interpretation that doesn't use the same Schrodinger/Bohmian equations and is getting better predictions? — Rich
I don't understand. If an interpretation gives us the correct result (i.e. the result predicted by the formalism and validated by experiments), then where is the problem? Or are you under the impression that a "non-deterministic interpretation" is contractually obligated to give a non-deterministic result for every conceivable measurement? — SophistiCat
So I want to ask you. You keep saying that the Mach-Zehnder interferometer experiment would be inexplicable under any interpretation other than the Everett interpretation. So what do you think the result of the experiment would look like if the Bohm or the Copenhagen interpretation was true? — SophistiCat
Provide references and I'll see if I have the time to study it. — Rich
Still, quantum theory remains probabilistic though in Bohm's model there are real causal agents - including "information". — Rich
It is not. I've read enough about it to understand there are lots of questions and issues to consider when using the apparatus and setting up the device depending upon what the experimenter is studying. But for some reason, you are using this as evidence of what??
In any case MZI is just an apparatus, not an experiment. — Rich
Someone would have to analyze and compute the quantum potential effects throughout the apparatus. I have not found a specific study on this problem. However, to revert to some deterministic, many-works interpretation based upon this one situation, given all of the other issues regarding quantum measurement problems, would be slightly "extravagant". — Rich
This paper discusses a way to analyze the experiment utilizing the concept of quantum erasing. No deterministic interpretation of quantum mechanics is required.
Single photon quantum erasing: a demonstration experiment
T L Dimitrova1 and A Weis — Rich
Bohm's model would simply say that the quantum potential is at near certainty at the point of the slit. However, the quantity potential is subject to "information fluctuations", for example: the Delayed-Choice scenario. Note the use of choice. It is causal but not deterministic. — Rich
You just proved, with a single experiment, that quantum theory is deterministic. How did I miss it? — Rich
You are using quantum states as if they are baseballs. — Rich
The only way to bring determinism back is in what Bell described as the "extravagant" Many-Worlds Interpretation, which still leaves us in a probabilistic world only now "we" have been also smeared over an infinite, every growing number of worlds. Everett's interpretation makes Copenhagen downright sensible. — Rich
The quantum state is analogous to the classical state in Newtonian Mechanics
— Andrew M
Yes, I dispute this. — Rich
Quantum state??? And how does that figure into determinism? You mean that state that is spread out as a probabilistic wave function? — Rich
What you are omitting, conveniently is what happens when an additional slit is opened after the photon passes through the first slot. I've experiment doesn't make determinism. However, one experiment does destroy it. Determinism is all our nothing. — Rich
Are you figuring on proving that Quantum is deterministic and local in this thread? — Rich
2) Science says that events are non-deterministic. If they were we could throw out Schrodinger's equation and replace it with Newton's. But, alas, science decided 100 years ago that Newton's Laws do not correspond to experimental evidence including Bell's Inequality which demonstrate non-locality. — Rich
Here is another quote, and I can pull out thousands like it:
"Quantum mechanics is indeterministic, "
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/ — Rich
In contrast to the usual interpretation, this alternative interpretation permits us to conceive of each individual system as being in a precisely definable state, whose changes with time are determined by definite laws, analogous to (but not identical with) the classical equations of motion. Quantum-mechanical probabilities are regarded (like their counterparts in classical statistical mechanics) as only a practical necessity and not as an inherent lack of complete determination in the properties of matter at the quantum level.") — David Bohm
There are "deterministic" interpretations of quantum mechanics.
— prothero
Which interpretation would this be? I know of no such interpretation, since inherently the Schrodinger equation (which is Quantum physics) is probabilistic. There is no getting away from this. — Rich
Each sense and each emotional feeling has had to go through your personal cognitive and physiological process. Therefore stating that your experience of the world is unique to you. The only way to counteract the quaila controversy is to get everyone to view the world through the same lens, which at this point in time is not possible. — Anonymys
Tell me what Pascal's 'imperative of stupidity' is when you find out. — Nils Loc
But again, what is the motivation behind the mathematics? What is the problem that the maths is trying to solve? Why go to the bother? — Wayfarer
The interpretation that comes closest to reality, for me, is Carlo Rovelli's RQM — daldai
But I have learned that if you can accept the idea that there are parallel universes, which myself and many others thinks is an absurd idea, then clearly there is no line of argument that can be used against it. — Wayfarer
And, as I responded, the fact that it implies 'two Alices' means that, as far as I am concerned, it is not realistic. — Wayfarer
I mist-stated the position. There is an Alice in both of them. I initially said that Alice is in both of them. The reference to an objective identity doesn't work. — noAxioms
Absolutely. All in one universe so we can actually explore the phenomenon. — Rich
I think it can be stated that the phenomenon of quantum entanglement undermines scientific realism, but again that's a philosophical observation. — Wayfarer
B) An a never ending,, growing number of unverifiable, unknowable universes. — Rich
Of course, one can buy into an infinite number of universes to avoid non-locality. But then, what is being observed in all of these experiments? Bohm would say the quantum potential acting at a distance. — Rich
Thank you. Perhaps one of them has indeed gone through the looking glass. — Wayfarer
Any physicist who regards a field as a real thing, has got a very strange ontology. It cannot be visualized as a mattress with springs, because numerous fields can occupy the same place, and mattresses can't do that. — Metaphysician Undercover
So - two 'Alices'? — Wayfarer
How does that obviate the apparent fact of 'action at a distance'? If the measurement of this particle here, fixes the spin of that particle over there, isn't that still 'action at a distance'? — Wayfarer
Ok. A violation of Bell's Inequalities which is designed to test .....?? — Rich
Ok. It's 'many-worlds" or never-ending branches (multi-verses?) that are interacting with each other (manifestation in one world creates another) non-locally totally entangled (one depended he upon the outcome of the other?). Now, how does Einstein's theory apply to all of these branches whatever they may be? — Rich
The wheel is what is circular, it is described by "circular", so the wheel is what we claim to be real. Now what is it which is described by the "field"? What is the real thing which "field" is attributed to, as the property of? — Metaphysician Undercover
Let's put it this way, the experiments that have been designed to test noon-locality gave confirmed non-locality, in the same manner any scientific experiment is interpreted. — Rich
Are there equations for inter-universe frame of references? — Rich
Yes, but not-locality has been experimentally observed which is why Bell preferred Bohm's model. Plus it gets around the awkwardness of a never-ending multitudes of universes interacting with each other in a presumably super-non-local manner. — Rich