I am fucking heated.

I believe President Trump and the Attorney General William Barr fucked children with their buddy, Jeffrey Epstein.

What is your response to the burning fawn scenario with respect to God? — Wallows

The universe wasn’t created for the fawn alone.

Okay. Well, to me the qualia of red is what the color of red is to me. Likewise, what you perceive as red is red to you. It doesn’t matter if they are the same experience. It takes an experiencer for red to exist. That is where I differ.

That said, I don’t think this discussion has any practical weight in my life, so I’m not that interested in it. I could be persuaded, but really in the end, who cares?

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Different wavelengths of electromagnetism exist without consciousness. But is this really what we think of as color?

MLK didn’t perform any evil means to justify his ends. I fail to see this as an example that bolsters your point. I’m grateful to MLK for his work, but I still don’t relate to him.

And you just take examples that serve your purpose. — Brett

No. I “generalized” just like you said. I don’t relate to leaders. Like I said, that’s just me. I am well within my right to have views whether they are a luxury or not. I’m supposed to be a “well-informed citizen”. That’s what the founders of my country wanted.

That’s the impression I got.

But they also got to be presidents. I can’t relate to someone who craves power. That’s just me. Just as you can’t relate to someone who is on disability who “sits around theorizing all day”.

But do you really believe the benefits you receive now aren’t the result of someone making tough decisions in the past? — Brett

Of course they were tough decisions. FDR stood up to the “royalists”, and LBJ gave us Medicare. I am grateful for those decisions. But do you think I’m disgusting for having opinions?

Not entirely. But you are forgetting that there are leaders of the “evil” countries, too. World leaders worldwide don’t care about you. Why do you care about them? They are mainly concerned about themselves and what will give them a good name.

It’s not accurate. You’ve chosen only to look at politicians. What about politicians in wartime, the military who decide where to deploy soldiers, budgets and health decisions; where the money should go? — Brett

The commander in chief is a politician, and the decisions about budgets and health are made by politicians. It is an accurate generalization.

I understand that you are disgusted by me, and you relate to those in power more than you do to me. This does not at all surprise me, and it is quite typical. You should also know that I’m not at all bothered by it.

It’s an accurate generalization, but you are correct that I will never have power.

They usually serve themselves foremost (in the US, their re-election), so I don’t see then as worthy of empathy.

And this fact (that ends are rarely realized) just further adds to our analysis of which means are acceptable - we had better lean toward not using "evil" means as we will likely fail to reach our desired end anyway. — ZhouBoTong

:up:

I suppose there is all at least a little evil in working towards any end, whether intended or unintended. Also, if killing myself brought about world peace, then I would line up in front of the firing squad tomorrow. I’m usually not all that thrilled about life most days anyway, but in reality I fail to see how this would bring about world peace. My example about exterminating a minority, unfortunately, is all too common a situation in the history of humanity. Except, of course, peace never followed and the intended ends were never realized. Much like almost anything in the politics of a nation. the ends are almost never realized.

Sorry mate, but for them to be happy you have to sign up with theirs. :cool: — Sir2u

@alcontali is a Muslim and I am a believer in Christ. We get along just fine.

If I understand you correctly, then I agree with you.

My position can be illustrated with an example. Suppose a nation was deeply divided at the point or almost to the point of a civil war. Suppose the end goal is to unify the country, a very good goal. Then suppose the ruler of this country decided the quickest and easiest way to unify the country was to vilify a minority group, convincing the populace that ridding the country of this minority would solve nearly all of their problems. The country unified and exterminates the vilified minority. Let’s even say that afterwards there were decades of peace.

Not even then do I agree that the ends justifies the means.

However, some ends can be brought about by many different means, provided the means aren’t exactly evil.

I think the hardest part about understanding ‘evil’ is realising that the only ‘evil’ in the world from ‘God’’s point of view is in humanity’s fearful interaction with the world. — Possibility

Awesome! Like the Psalm that goes “I shall fear no evil...” You’ve been brilliant in this thread. Just don’t let it go to your head, as no state is permanent! :wink:

I’m only a consumer of free porn. I don’t believe in paying for something that I can get for free.

But the major point is that Trump and Bernie both result from a populace starting to notice that something's wrong with what's been passing as the ruling class consensus. — fishfry

The problem is the system, I agree, but not in the sense that you may think. The system has been telling you lies since birth: what to value, how you are valued, how to value other people. Neither Bernie nor Trump offer any sane solutions. Just more egomaniacal bullshit. I just prefer the lies of the Democrats, so I won’t be voting for Trump.

That’s fair enough - I have a problem with ignorance in preferring either bias, but otherwise I think it’s possible for a both/and approach to this question of existence. I guess it depends on what you mean by ‘something in us’. Personally, I think it’s our perceived potentiality that continues on in the minds of those with whom we’ve connected in life, which enables ‘who we are’ to interact with the world after our bodies die. So, for me, it’s not something in us, but the immaterial and irreducible qualities of our relations with others that we should be maximising while we’re alive. — Possibility

This is also a good, honest philosophy. I can’t say I find fault with it.

I’m sorry. I got a little agitated. It wasn’t really about you.

I am grateful but the free will defense for the problem of evil is wrong. — TheMadFool

Probably so. So what? What did the Church and the Apostles mean by “free will” anyway? The ability to choose evil? That’s simplistic bullshit. If you’re going to read any sacred text, you can’t check your mind at the door. You have to know how the text came about, which parts were chosen to be included and why and by whom, and you have to search for truth in it. It takes a critical mind. It’s not all bullshit, but some of it doesn’t serve God but instead serves the corrupt men responsible for its distribution. The Bible is part truth and part propaganda. You have to have world experience to know what’s what. I’m sorry that “Christians” have ruined God for you.

No. I have not got a side. But if it's Trump versus what's become of the Dems, I'm with Trump. There isn't anyone else. — fishfry

My apologies. I didn’t read the entire thread. My persuasion is to side with a more community-minded message. I realize that it is basically bullshit messaging, but everything about Trump is bullshit and far worse bullshit. It’s downright dangerous to civil society.

(I said in another thread that Nixon was more of a liberal than Obama, crook that Nixon was. Eisenhower even more so.)

So the solution to neoliberalism is the dissolution of all that is decent? I don’t even think Trump’s policies are any good for the vast majority of the population. He’s a self-serving showman who is tearing apart civil society.

All I'm saying is there's no need to carry coal to Newcastle. If evil is a tendency then god allowing evil so that we may have free will doesn't make sense. Imagine I create a robot and program it with a tendency towards evil. Now, if my explanation for whatever immorality that follows is that I wanted the robot to have free will, then people will not buy my argument. The robot is evil even without free will; in fact if free will has any role, it would be to allow the robot to be good, not bad. — TheMadFool

Suffering is baked into the cake because people are so selfish that they think they are entitled to a creation for each individual’s desires. We were given a “Garden of Eden” and managed to live in harmony with it for tens of thousands of years. Don’t blame God for humanity’s hubris that we should all be entitled to creations for each individual taste. We think we know better than God. You are a puny human who should be grateful that you are even alive in this man-made hell.

There are, of course, exceptions to this rule.

Politicians for the most part from either party are foremost about their own survival. Don’t fool yourself that you’re on the correct side.

Republicans have no scandals? In fact they do, but they are just unashamed and exempt from accountability. Voter suppression, anyone?

Increasing awareness, connection and collaboration enables us to face specific fears, but not to eliminate fear altogether. Joy comes and goes - we will always find it where we are so long as we’re not afraid of experiencing pain, humility, loss or lack. But ‘happiness’ is not a permanent state to strive for - there is no permanent state except non-existence, and success in achieving a state of ‘happiness’ entails an ignorance of the inevitability of change. — Possibility

This is very enlightened. I just prefer the theistic bias as opposed to the atheistic or other bias. I think there is something in us that continues on after our bodies die. I have no proof of this in a scientific sense, but what would that proof even look like? I have my reasons which are sufficient for me.

I agree with this. Put an otherwise good person in a “bad” situation, and the stress can lead to bad decisions. That doesn’t excuse it, but there are degrees of culpability.

Of course not all people who have been through such childhood experiences are unable to manage their impulses, or they at least manage it to the degree it’s not destructive. — Brett

Depends on the type and duration of the abuse, the individual physiology, and what you mean by “destructive”.

You have an obvious option. You can choose not to watch it. Media is about attracting eyeballs to make money. Find fault with the men who like that stuff if you must. I like it. Find fault with capitalism maybe, but what other system would best suit us? Got any alternatives?

Free will. We don’t have to be angry. We can chose to manage it, or not. We can take something lying around that’s not ours or we can leave it. We can lie or chose not to. We can chose to fight or not to. The tendencies, like I said, swing between good and the absence of good, which is evil. Your problem, it seems to me, with this is that the three cannot exist in one person: evil, good and free will. — Brett

This goes against the claims of most contemporary neuroscientists, who I grant aren’t infallible but have lots of evidence to back up their claims. In some individuals the prefrontal cortex doesn’t override the impulsions of the limbic system no matter how much they try. Their emotions are in effect uncontrollable. You might experience this if you ever had to fight for your mortal life, in fact. It is very, very difficult if not impossible for some victims of early childhood abuse to control their emotions all the time due to impeded brain development from the trauma, for example. That’s why it’s not good to stress these people out too much.

Now I agree to an extent that we have free will, but our version of consciousness as humans is a relationship between mind and brain, whatever the relationship is truly we may never know, but damage to the brain causes changes in behaviors. It is now proposed that the brain can heal itself to a degree (possibly mind over matter), but there are really strong limitations to this. Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe strokes and aneurysms come to mind.

My bad. But didn’t you say that Democratic policies are generally failures? Or at least their implementation?

Improving oneself requires a letting go.
In this world however , you then fall prey to the action of others? — Pop

I think improvement of oneself is necessarily subjective. We are all biased towards our own notions of what improves each of us.

Consciousness is also a relation to present external stimulus and an intention towards the future. There is a creative element of nature, the individual, and the collective.

The Republican tax code is pretty complex. The Social Security system of benefits is simple. You’re being an absolutist. Sometimes Democratic policies are better by design. Sometimes the private sector is better. I wouldn’t want the government making my cars, for example. Medicare is very popular and works quite well, as a counter example.

I agree with you that there are healthier (for overall society and individuals) ways to deal with one another over others. I also agree that what Hitler did was evil, but that really wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I guess my point is that we shouldn’t assume our suffering is in vain simply by the intensity of our emotional responses. Only God knows best.

With confidence and self-discipline anybody can overcome the demons of his past. If only you believe that you can, and have faith, you can emerge victorious. All you need to do, is to ask. If you implore and beseech our beloved Master, he will give you. Our Lord is there to guide you. The believer does not need to fear, and that is why the believer does not fear:

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
— Zabur/Psalms 23:4 — alcontali

Thank you for the encouragement. The demons come and go. Some days I’m able to empathize with my father who couldn’t overcome his demons. Sometimes I think I have always been a bad person and somewhat deserve this. I should pray to ask for help with the mood swings.