Is your suggestion that self-professed Christians do not engage in charity work?

In any case, although Christians are called to give alms, that is not what makes one a Christian. What makes one a Christian is not the observance of a particular ethic (the Native Americans did not even identify themselves as Christians), but being in a particular relationship to the risen Christ, one of faith. I am speaking biblically here. Certainly, faith without works is dead, as James says in his epistle, but this is a comment about the nature of an authentic, saving faith.

In any case, there does seem to be a leap being made. Why should living in a (partially) capitalistic, materialistic, or wealthy society be in tension with a Christian ethic? It is not money, after all, but the love of money which is the root of all evil. I'm not exactly sure what the argument is supposed to be here.

There are all sorts of ways in which the non-capitalistic elements of (the way government coercively invades) society are in tension with a Christian ethic. The welfare state, for one, gives rise to the worst kind of atomised individualism, where 'alms' (taxes) are 'given' (confiscated), not in such a way that is motivated by helping those who need it most in the way that they most need it, but in such a way that creates a class of permanent dependants, and exempts the tax-payer from any further charitable action. 'I support these insitutions with my taxes,' they will say, 'I have already done my part'. Charity has to remain charity, and that is why capitalism has to remain capitalism. — Virgo Avalytikh

After re-reading this post I must admit that you did try to answer the OP as honestly as you could. I apologize for my agitation.

Regarding your points on what it means to be Christian and whether it is compatible with a wealthy materialistic consumer society driven by profits for the owner class, well I couldn't disagree more fervently. I see how you voted and I acknowledge it. I just don’t see things that way, and to me this society couldn’t be more at odds with Jesus’ teachings and example.

I will leave it at that.

Well, have at it then. Do you think Allah is proud of you for your proud displays?

The world’s GDP is something like $27 trillion I think. No one but the impoverished are getting into heaven given they have turned from their sins. This is clearly a Satanic planet. Alcontali, Virgo, and you care more about scoring ego points than answering the OP directly. That is truly sinful.

Edit: Just looked it up and the world GDP is actually $80 trillion. I think I was quoting the USA.

You really are a psychopathic asshole, aren’t you.

Furthermore, I have yet to meet someone in this society who has repented. If Jesus is coming back, he will most likely condemn us all. You and Virgo are acting more like proud, boastful, sinful Satanists than followers of Christ. I admitted I would not be saved as I have not turned from sin. But I score points for humility! :razz:

We are mostly all wealthy as you said.

Nope. Analogies are inductive. Comparing the natives to the Pilgrims to the words of Jesus is not deductive.

Never mind. Jesus doesn’t love you.

Is there not just the slightest chance that you are engaging in anachronism here? — Virgo Avalytikh

I assume I’m much richer than the rich man that Jesus told to give up his possessions. I’m sure he didn’t have indoor plumbing. Lol

I’m bored of you. You make me yawn and wish I didn’t have to waste so much time on you.

You’re not too wealthy to get into Heaven, Virgo. You don’t have to give up your wealth, and Jesus loves you. Does that help? Feel better? Or have I sowed doubts now?

Secondly, in his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus clarified that did not come to alter, modify, abolish or abrogate Jewish law. Therefore, the opinions of Jesus and the opinions in Christianity are simply not the same. If you want to know what Jesus would have said, you will need to ask the question to a religious scholar in Jewish law. If you want to know what Christians would think, there will be as many answers as there Christians. It is important to emphasize that Christians generally do not think like Jesus did. Again, Christianity is not a formal system and is therefore not suitable to answer jurisprudential questions. — alcontali

You’re being pedantic. It is clear from the Gospels what were the words of Jesus and what were the words of the authors. What did Jesus say? Who better reflects this?

You’re getting into some sort of pedagogical pedantry that is besides the point and is a total waste of our time.

Just compare it to the way first century Jesus and his disciples lived while he was preaching. Who then is more like Christ in his lifestyle? The homeless beggar or me or you?

Jesus said you must turn from sin and repent. The Apostles were corrupt, self-serving zealots out to start an organized religion. I don’t think anything Jesus said about spreading his gospel was meant to be organized into a hierarchical institution.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:8-9) — Virgo Avalytikh

Jesus never said this. This is from an Apostle’s epistle.

Anyone in the middle to upper classes in a First World country is wealthy.

The Trinity is a theory that does NOT necessarily follow from the Bible. Hence, I consider it to be a heresy. — alcontali

It probably is, as is most of the tenets of faith of the various denominations. So, back to my original point. What did Jesus actually say about God, God’s commandments, and about himself? Who better personifies what he said? The natives or the pilgrims?

Perhaps you can furnish us with a non-arbitrary threshold, biblically informed, as to when rich-status kicks in. Otherwise, I think one is well within one's intellectual rights in considering Jesus's preoccupation to be with the excessive love of money, to the detriment of helping one's fellow human being, as is consistent with the tenor of the rest of the NT. — Virgo Avalytikh

I couldn’t disagree more. Wealth precludes the possibility of salvation. I am very comfortable in my home among my possessions as I’m sure billions of people are. It’s not supposed to be easy to garner God’s grace. It takes real work. Sorry to burst your bubble.

However, I believe we should each believe whatever gets us through this life whilst doing the least harm to others. That’s my motto.

Logically, this actually does not follow. Jesus did not say that the wealthy certainly do not go to heaven, only that it is difficult for them to do so, which is not in dispute. — Virgo Avalytikh

Wrong. He was saying that just as it is impossible for a person to pass through the eye of a needle, so it is impossible for a wealthy man to get into Heaven. This is very clear and obvious to anyone who has actually read the Gospels.

Anyways, the question I was asking in the OP was who better personified the teachings of Christ? The pilgrims or the natives? The pilgrims had the Bible, but on the other hand the natives better personified Christ’s commandments.

Also, each Protestant denomination has its own tenets of faith that they have derived from their own interpretations of the Bible.

For example, there is not one Church that pretends that the Nicene creed comes from the Bible. On the contrary, they all admit that the theory of the trinity was decided at the Council of Nicaea. — alcontali

Apparently you’ve never heard of the probably hundreds of Protestant denominations who believe that the entire Bible is the divine Word of God, passed down to humanity through God’s will? Are you from the United States? Protestants aren’t taught about the Council of Nicaea and if they know about it, they would just say that God’s will was done.

Jesus literally said that it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hence, wealthy people don’t get into Heaven. They must give up their wealth and follow Jesus. He literally said this to a rich man he asked him what he had to do to repent. This is clear in the Gospels. Not sure what else you want me to say. If you’re a true follower of Christ, you can’t be rich. I am much wealthier than the inhabitants of Haiti and other third world countries’ inhabitants, but I already conceded that Jesus would condemn me. My wife and I have iPhones, a 4K TV, three other HD TVs, a laptop with two extra 24-inch monitors, two cars, and a two-story house. My wife and I have a combined annual income of $69,000.

You don’t hear me bitching and moaning about Christ’s incontrovertible teachings. What’s your problem?

With money with a graven image on it, occupation money the Pharisees shouldn't have been carrying. He's making a joke, I think. What did Jesus think didn't belong to God? — iolo

The way I read it, he wasn’t making a joke but was genuinely trying to avoid the folly of choosing sides between the occupiers (Rome) and the priests’ set trap for him.

I don’t even know how to respond to your raving histrionics. I could argue that personal property is theft, and keeping people from sharing the land is a form of slavery. I don’t actually believe this, but this is what you sound like. The State is formed through a social contract, I might argue, and thus protects the people rather than coercing them. Taxes are the cost of civil society. Rich people who want to horde their wealth and not pay for the commons and infrastructure that they benefit more from than anyone else is the true outrage I might argue.

Furthermore, you are not aware of the several councils the Church held to set dogma and the format of the modern Bible?

The difference is entirely and exclusively epistemic. It is really not about what the scripture says. It is about the consideration whether their advisories necessarily and provably follow from scripture. — alcontali

And the various churches all believe that their different and varied tenets of faith do indeed come from Scripture. As I understand it, there are different sects of Jews (the Reformed and the Orthodox as examples), and there are the Sunni and Shia Muslims. The two Muslim factions have been at odds for centuries. Plus, there is the Wahabbists, too.

The Bible has never been used to reason from first principles, and therefore, Christianity is not dogmatic, which in my opinion, is the religion's most severe weakness. — alcontali

You are not saying there isn’t Church dogma, are you? Google any Christian church denomination and you will find in their tenets of faith dogmatic nonsense. What Christ taught and what the various churches teach are starkly at odds.

I’m not being political. You clearly are. I was being descriptive of contemporary society, and you bring in some far right-wing Murray Rothbard nonsense about the coercive State and how taxes are theft. I’ve got you pegged and we both know it. You’re defensive about your wealth and privilege. Biblical commentary? What in any way does that have to do with what Jesus said? Do you even realize that the Bible’s various books from Genesis to Revelation were set by the corrupt, self-serving Roman Catholic Church? And now all denominations use it.

Jesus literally said, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and render unto God what is God’s.” He was talking about paying taxes. :razz:

Jesus and his disciples had a communal purse. They lived off of alms. So, I tend to see your point of view.

Is there anyone else here who wants to be an insufferable self-serving twit? Jesus welcomes all sinners to repent. :smile:

I strongly suspect you’re so defensive because you yourself love your wealth and privilege. I’m sorry Jesus has condemned you, but ease your mind in knowing that He condemns all those who do not repent, myself included. Also, I’m not religious.

Do you even know what you are talking about? I’m not talking about religious dogma taken from the Bible that was sanctioned by the corrupt Roman Catholic Church that all Christian church denominations also use as their sacred text. Dogmatic bullshit is what it is full of.

I am talking about the teachings of Jesus, His supposed actual words as portrayed in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Thomas, and Mary.

And no, Jesus most assuredly condemned the wealthy. You can’t serve two Gods.

Yeah, that song was playing on SiriusXM when I posted that. :up:

Have you read Pirsig on the influence of Native culture on the (white) American psyche? — unenlightened

The only book of Pirsig’s that I’ve read is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I do know that the founding fathers of the United States were heavily influenced by the Iroquois Nation, however.

I for one am too old to rock and roll, and too young to die.

My apologies. You just seem to be stuck in a paradigm of structured thinking without imagination that really irks me. My hope for you is that you open your mind to the possibilities available in the different realms of myriad and limitless thought.

Me, my mind changes about many things daily.

Of course, all of my recommended prescriptions for US society are only meant to slow the race to our ultimate ruin.

I also fully expect the aliens to keep their promise to me to protect me in the upcoming wars. :joke:

You in one fell swoop dismiss entire libraries of engineering and other scientific knowledge. Chemical, biochemical, whatever you want to name it, you dismiss all progress, catapulted from time to time by the written word. — god must be atheist

Almost all of which has contributed to overpopulation and pollution, not to mention the need for increased energy production in the developed and developing world which is quickly speeding up the detrimental effects of global warming and destruction caused by an ever-expanding population high on the comforts of the modern system.

Don’t get me wrong. I fully expect to go down with the ship, too.

By progress I mean efficiency and inventiveness. Pasteur's immunization; the Hoover Dam; telephones and the Internet; cell phones and smart phones and smart tvs; even books, clothing, and skyscapers are based on knowledge passed down and refined by the written word. — god must be atheist

That’s all included in what I meant by “progress” as well. There is no technofix to the existential problems we face as a civilization. More technology and so-called “innovation”, the more problems and unintended consequences.

Sorry, but you’ve been duped. Your faith in technology and science is just that: faith.

Without the written word, we would not be able to look back on our past, value or retrieve what we have lost along the way, learn from our mistakes or collectively imagine, map and create a valuable future. But it isn’t the solution, it’s only a tool - we need to remember why we developed this tool in the first place: to increase awareness, connection and collaboration. — Possibility

I couldn’t disagree more wholeheartedly. We had oral traditions that were much more meaningful than the historical record of which King ruled when, who started the war, which journalist broke the story... history of civilization is a history of oppression and subjection of the vast majority of the population through social control written in laws designed to prop up the rich and powerful. The written word has always been a tool for propaganda and disinformation. It is used to manage the affairs of the ruling elite, and it always has been throughout recorded history.

Seems to me the future is rather bleak, and we haven’t learned anything from recorded history except finding novel and more efficient ways of killing one another and destroying the environment more quickly.

The written word was never intended to “increase awareness, connection, and collaboration,” but on the contrary has been used since the time of Hammurappi to subject and control the people.

However, as I mentioned in my post, there is no going back. The world is overpopulated and the Earth is dying. We are all too dependent on the capitalistic system with all its downfalls to go back to living in tribes. Furthermore, the massive population of the planet is now dependent on factory farming to feed itself. There simply isn’t enough pristine land to go back. Never mind that most of the knowledge of prehistoric peoples have been lost.

We have all been programmed by the written word. We are all forever changed... and we are all fucked.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the current interconnected world civilization is doomed to collapse because of insatiable greed and the hubris of humankind to think that we could tame nature. We are parasites on this planet, and civilization mostly caused by the ability to organize ourselves through the written word and written mathematics will ultimately be our undoing.

Your blind faith in “progress” is not unique to you, though. Almost all of humanity is infected by this thought virus. However, I do enjoy using the written word to expose all the lies of the system that keeps people delusionally hopeful.

The federal government requires television networks to beam free NFL football games into my living room in HD. That's the kind of authoritarianism I can get behind. — fishfry

:100:

.. and your Ark. — 180 Proof

Still building it in my back yard. And good luck with your alcoholism!