Ahh I see, but "Human Dignity" are Implanted, not earned. That is, you get it just by the fact that you are human, hence it's called "Human Dignity" not "A good Person Dignity".

The problem with "earned" Human Dignity, means that they are Humans that doesn't worthy enough for Human Dignity.

This Human Dignity, not only Implanted, it even can be said cannot be took away, even if the person that has it throw it away by consent. People would still value them as Human with Human Dignity.

You are free to not respect a human as a good person, but you shouldn't view people as "A person that don't have any Human Dignity" that is like slavery mindset dude

Yes, the point that I want to make is

1) Change is possible and will happen. (Your statement Suggest that)

2) In that Process of Change, NuncAmisa "Paradigm" could be used. (The paradigm that I thought you don't believe).

^Excatly, that's why when someone said "I'm a nihilist" they usually is not a nihilist. Because a true nihilist is a broken person

↪Terrapin Station

Sorry, can you phrase it another way? I don't grasp all of the point that you're arguing

↪musicpianoaccordion

If we put God out, Why we have Human Dignity? Because we created it (The Social Contract).

You're talking about the Capabilities of thinking above mere impulse. But I argue even if that human could Only think like animal, that himan still has "Human Dignity". Because we created it. And we as human, apply it to all human.

We can "Use" animal, simply because "They are not Human" they lacked "The Human Dignity" (If you having trouble with that concept it's okay, today many vegan want to create the Animal Dignity Concept)

Sorry, can you phrase it another way? I don't grasp all of the point that you're arguing



If we put God out, Why we have Human Dignity? Because we created it (The Social Contract).

You're talking about the Capabilities of thinking above mere impulse. But I argue even if that human could Only think like animal, that himan still has "Human Dignity". Because we created it. And we as human, apply it to all human.

We can "Use" animal, simply because "They are not Human" they lacked "The Human Dignity" (If you having trouble with that concept it's okay, today many vegan want to create the Animal Dignity Concept)

You love art because it makes you happy. Because Art doesn't have any transcedental value or purpose, we as human can put value or purpose all we like, that is how an Existentialist think, It has value to you.

A nihilist (in its extreme form) don't believe that, the moment you "Believe" you have found the Value of something, you stopped being a Nihilist. You just become An Atheist Existentialist : D

If you know the story of Syshypus (The king who cheated death and punish to spend all eternity rolling stone to the top of the hill only to see it falling again, and doing it all over again)

Albert Camu (or Jean Paul Satre, forgot) once said "One can Imagine that syshypus is the happiest, most purposefull person in the world"

If it not eternality, then what makes "Something" worthwhile? :D

If someone asked you,

Why bother doing art? Only few people see it. And in the end they will die, your works will also be forgotten and destroyed. You just spend the time you has doing something insignificant that is not eternal. Why bother doing art in the first place. Even if it makes you happy, in the end those happiness will also be sweep away by sadness. Art has no value then

What are your response? :D

Oh! You're talking about Art! Yes Art is "Useless" to nihilist because they don't have any transcendal purpose or inherent meaning

Ps. I'm not a native speaker too :D

^Agree, look up "Social Contract"

Hmmm, beside theology? I can think of something, but it's not perfect. You can argue like this.

As a human I want to be happy and respected - > We want others to Respect us (That is our dignity) because I'm a human- > Others are human - > So if you want to be respected as a human you must respect other as human too.

When you disregard "Human Dignity" it means "You want to be happy, without caring about the happiness or respect of other people" - > this mean You (Yourself) are without "Human Dignity" and as Human with "Human Dignity" it's okay for us to make you Unhappy (by locking you up)

This concept (almost like lock's idea of natural law) is put in reality and many people does it. That's why you can argue, we, as human deem that "Human Dignity" is real because we use it (like money).

Okay, assume that there is free energy due to the Industrial Revolution. You are saying because of a cause, Social Chaos happen (which I can understand) .

Then, we can say that the "Free Energy" that the protester in the middle east are trying to channeled are caused by "The Globalization Era" (or something). Then if The Middle East Protester stay in the path the same as the woman suffragettes, we can hope that it will eventually realize (Even through revolution). Changes can happen!

Because the main problem is "This situation is Bad, Why is it bad? What can we do to change it? And are we ready to change it? And are our reason good enough for that change?"

Sorry, could you write it ummm better, I couldn't understand

Yes, that's why when the people are protesting we need to see the facts in all the part. Not only in the protester part.

I somewhat agree in

The paradigm is simple. — NuncAmissa

. It is simple, but it is costly, and sometimes Imposible.

An example of it being true :

Women Suferrage, it all start from a group of women who want tradition to be changed, it get opposed, but little by little, it start to become big (The Chaos become Bigger), until it cannot be contained anymore and the situation is changed.(The Chaos Become Order)

The situation in middle east CAN be changed, BUT it need time AND may result in a revolution. But I disagree that people must "Elect" someone. No, the people ITSELF (through sacrifise) must be the one that start and do the process

Agree

Hmm I don't say it CAN'T lead to nihilism, it indeed can. BUT not all nihilism start with lazyness and depression.

You should now that some Nihilist maybe once the most hardworking person in his job, BUT precisely because of the tiresome of those hard work, they start to question "What is the purpose/value of my hard job excatly?" And thus lead to nihilist answer.



Agree

Depression and lazyness doesn't excatly lead to Nihilism, But Nihilism lead to Depression and lazyness
: D

Nihilism start when people believe that God is not real. Now because there are no God, there is no purpose in "All Life" and rules are made to persevere that "Life". If Life has no purpose, then we basically don't have any assurance, any indication between right or wrong, nothing.

I don't support this ideology because of the reason in my previous post, BUT it will do us good to learn about it : D

Purple is the mix between red and blue. Why would that be unimaginable? — Tzeentch

Well, Psychologist and Scientist are STILL arguing that people cannot imagine a new color they haven't seen, even IF the color already exist. (See Google, you might add something to their debate : D) because our brain doesn't work that way.

And if math appeared out of there being multiple objects and humans started adding them up, doesn't that mean all an imagination needs is one or more objects to start inventing math on their own? — Tzeentch

^Mhhmm, yes, our brain can do epic stuff even if the data is so small and seems arbitrary. Example : The Concept of Gravity, it exist, but no one don't (not can't) imagine it. But a simple drop of an apple is enough for Newton to think (Imagined) the concept of gravity, another one is Quantum mechanics, people cannot think or imagine the Quantum concept before Einstein.

The limit of our brain is put to the limit in science. But even Science talk more about UNCOVERING (atom, gravity, light, quantum) than CREATING (Creating basically making something out of something).

Anyhow, now we are reasoning from a situation where no outside influences have ever entered the brain, which isn't exactly a situation any mind has ever found itself in. — Tzeentch

Are you sure there are ZERO influence in our brain? : D the concept of debate? color? a child? philosophy?

Purple is the mix between red and blue. Why would that be unimaginable? — Tzeentch

^Well, psychologist today STILL argue that people cannot imagine a color that we haven't yet seen, EVEN IF the color exist (You should search Google, and add something to the debate : D).

that mean all an imagination needs is one or more objects to start inventing math on their own? — Tzeentch

^Mmhmmm, if our mind have the "Input" or "Data" our mind can do epic stuff, a subliminal epic painting can come because we see "A glimpse of Yellow". Think of why advanced math or Quantum physic first come out. We cannot "Imagined" the wonderful characteristic of Light (in quantum physic) without Einstein theory. We cannot "Imagined" the concept of "Variable" without the concept of basic math (Add and Subtract).

Our imagine have boundaries, boundaries which we can break given the right input. That boundaries are why people first think that there are no atoms, and the boundaries break when Bohr (I think) proof that atoms is real. Science is more about UNCOVERING (Atoms, Light, Formula, Space, Etc) than Creating (Creating comes after we uncover something).

Anyhow, now we are reasoning from a situation where no outside influences have ever entered the brain, which isn't exactly a situation any mind has ever found itself in. — Tzeentch

Are you sure there are ZERO influence outside our brains? : D the concept of debate? the concept of being in philosophy forum? hmmm

By Nihilism, I assume you mean the view that "All things have no Purpose" or "All things have no Intrinsic Value".

Nihilism bring a good concept by saying "The things that happen now in our live, is not designed to be like this, it even doesn't have any natural design at all". That's mean there are no Transcendental purpose in Moral Law, Lives, or Tradition.

Now the problem of Nihilism is the view doesn't give the response of what should we do AFTER we realized that there are no purpose in our life or moral law. This lead people to depression, anarchy and self-exalting authority. Nihilism believe we are basically Fuc*ed because there are no light in the tunnel. That's why Existentialist rise up. Existentialist believe because we don't have a Transcendental purpose in life, this bring us Freedom to choose what life purpose is. That lead to people now searching for meaning of life, and we know that "Purpose" and "Value" bring happiness (or happiness is sometimes the purpose itself, according to some people).

That's why, the nihilistic people may seem the most depressing and lazy, because they don't have a purpose, and stuck in bondage of non-purposeful life.

but he would be able to imagine many new things given he has a creative and imaginative mind. And given the nature of dreams, these things may be unbound by physics, time or reality. — Tzeentch

Yes I agree, but even so these "Many things" will in the end limited, imagined if the child never see the color Purple, then even though he can imagined many things, he won't imagine the color purple. Our Mind need Input, that's why people learn, and that's why people in today's time are smarter than the most imaginative people who live in 50CE.

And I think Math doesn't appear out of nothing. I think math started like this. 1 Human have an apple, He then found another apple, and then he think "What is this concept", The first concept of "Adding" and the first concept of "Counting" (Making the Vocabulary of 1 apple as "One") is the start of math. It happen because of a phenomena. Math, the same as another aspect of science, start because of a phenomena that affects human daily life.

I don't think people, who never seen anything, never have an object, basically never do anything, suddenly able to imagine math, without cause. But what do you think : D

I

My theory is: we adults dont play that much due to our abilities of thinking about the purposes or our exercices. — musicpianoaccordion

When you put it that way, I think the reason why Adult don't play that much is because WE DO know our purpose whe we play, which is according to Google "....engage in activity FOR ENJOYMENT"

As an adult, we think of many different think, there are many priorities, many target, and many desire. Most of the time, we, as adult put aside "Enjoyment" for "Productive Works". Example : As adult we choose to go to work at the day, sleep in the night (or morning :D), and play only in between.

You make a point for "Hopscotch", and you said, they play Hopscotch to be good at certain things. If we think children will do something because they want to be good at certain things, then as parent, making them study would be easy. But it's not, he reason children play hopscotch is because at their age, Thats makes them happy. We as adult don't play Hopscotch because, Hopscotch don't make us happy anymore, "Playing with social media / Computer games, Etc" makes us more happy.

So I think the reason of why adult don't play that much because we put aside our priorities to be "Relaxed and happy in enjoyment" most of the time.

I think our Mind is indeed Finite, not only Finite, but almost the same as a systems it has "Limit" and "Boundaries", that is "If there's no new input, it cannot produce new output" (Example of the Limit is : We Cannot think of another color, or we don't know how to count IF we haven't yet learned it). Like dream, I think (because it's not yet unproven) we can absolutely stay in a Limited Long Period of time. But not "Infinite" because eventually all the "Experience" of that Dream will eventually run out or repeat.

Some thought experiment, Imagine a genius 5 years old kid who lived only with his small family of 3 in a small deserted little cabin in the barren mountain. He knew simple math and simple english, and only exposed to any 5 years old standard experience. Now imagine if 1 night he was dreaming and he can prolong that dream until eternity. What will he dream? Can he dream the sea even though he never saw the sea? Can he dream a pineapple fruit, even though he never saw that fruit, His dream universe will be the same as the universe he once seen. And when all the possibilities are explored and all the data has been used. EIther it will end (black screen?), he wakes up, or everything repeat.

I believe that our mind is finite, our perception is also finite, but we haven't found the maximum potential of our mind, so we can only guess hahaha

The freedom of Speech, is indeed rare in some countries. We live in an evil world where in some part of the world, there are people who haven't taste the "General View of Freedom". Disclaimer, I don't live in a situation as dire as you, but my country is also not what I called "Ideal".

I think, yes, you don't have the Freedom of Speech (to some degree), yes, a better "Regulation" are needed. But the questions are, what facts that I don't see in my country?

There are somethings that we need to think, some of it are:

1) A country that restrict public activist must have its reason, what is their reason, and do you have the better realistic and possible solution for that reason? If you don't, then we are in a weak position to protest. Think as if you're the country.

2) If it "bad", it WILL eventually change to good, the problems are, what sacrifice must I make to start those changes? What part can I play to start this changes. A small things is okay, because even though it's small, we can still do something.

Maybe the situation are, "We are not Free, and thus we Protest/Act/Spoke/Write, Today we're still in bondage, but in the future things will change".