Comments

  • Can artificial intelligence be creative, can it create art?
    Excuse the time taken to reply.Brett

    No problem. We were talking in a couple different art threads...so hopefully my response is on topic.

    I think it makes sense at the least, or as a beginning, to say that an artist produces art, to begin with the artist.Brett

    I am with you here, but it brings up questions:

    What was the first art? The first two cavemen to see animals in the clouds? The first cave paintings? Or the first civilized human that intentionally created an abstract and/or impractical work that was designed to illicit an emotional response from its viewer?

    and of course your question would similarly apply:

    I was wondering, if we destroyed all art, made it disappear, what would go and what would be left?Brett

    Interesting question. Does artistic language count? Does figurative language serve a purpose besides "dressing up" the statement? What about Lionel Messi? Many professionals are called "artists" when they reach a high level, is this just a metaphor, or are we saying something about their skill being beyond reason or instruction? The more I think about it, the more we would be destroying EVERYTHING created by humans. I am looking at phones, staplers, printers, and clocks right now...they all have artistic elements.

    So, could we actually destroy ALL art? Would that include destroying all minds capable of understanding, and therefor containing, art? I can understand there is a difference between "artistic" and "art" that potentially clarifies most of my problems...but how could the adjective "artistic" exist (or make sense) if there was no "art"?

    Well, a bunch of questions with few answers. That's all I got :smile:
  • Can populism last?
    Perhaps my fear is that despite the huge growth of internet communication and the potential raising in peoples' education, societies instead become more fear-based.Tim3003

    As education has become more democratized and accessible, society has become increasingly demanding that all opinions and ideas have value. From here, we have grown to the point that all opinions have nearly equal values. As long as we continue to foster this idea (and it is heavily fostered - young people are constantly reminded that they have valuable opinions), then rhetoric like that used by populists will thrive (as it is the most effective means of persuading people).

    While we have increased the amount of education received by the average person, at no point do we do emotional training (or perhaps more accurately, anti-emotional training). If people are unaware of the power of their emotions, then they will be controlled by them...and a good speaker can target those emotional responses without having to say anything of substance.
  • Can populism last?
    The elites, of course, live no where near these people, nor hardly interact with them unless it is to be served by them. And they would know what is best for us?NOS4A2

    Well potentially yes, in the same way that a doctor knows best as to how to treat a sick or injured person (doesn't the sick person know himself better than the doctor?). There are a lot of different kinds of "elite".
  • Can populism last?
    Just to be clear: the populism I'm talking about is that espoused by Trump, the Brexit Party and others who promote nationalism at the cost of demonising immigrants. Other policies could be said to be based on what the people want or what is best for them, but that's not what I'm majoring on here.Tim3003

    I agree that this type of populism thrives on people not knowing what is best for them. But I would still argue that Trump is often giving the people (those people) EXACTLY what they want (demonizing immigrants).

    Thus it's no more a force for improvement in society than was the credo of Hitler.Tim3003

    A hammer can be a force for improvement or a force for destruction.

    I get (now) that the points I have brought up are not what you are hoping to discuss in this thread, and so I will stop. I should at least make an effort to address the points you care about so here goes:

    If it spreads, as the increasing mobility of poor or war-ravaged populations seem to threaten it could, what will the future look like?Tim3003

    I agree this would be a problem, but what can be done about it? I feel there is just as much anti-Trump (anti-brexit, anti-(white)nationalism, etc) sentiment out there. Either people accept the ideas or not? We may have some power of persuasion over people that care about us, I have talked my Mom out of voting Republican - at least for now - and I am making progress with my Dad, but I doubt I have convinced anyone online. Except for some fairly extreme authoritarian policies (which I am open too, but I get that most Americans and many others are strongly opposed), how would we prevent the spread?

    The only positive it seems, is that as the right gets more extreme, people are more open to extreme left positions. Who would have thought 20 years ago we would have mainstream candidates that are openly advocating socialist policies? (100 years ago it looked possible, but things shifted strongly in the opposite direction in the 80s)

    The more public fear is whipped up the more dictators can seem acceptable as the antidote. I don't think it's coincidence that, whatever destabilising tactics the Russian use internationally, Trump unashamedly admires Putin..Tim3003

    And stuff like this is how we can convince those open to convincing (typically just those who care about us). Trump's admiration of Putin is perhaps the major reason my Dad will NOT vote for Trump (again, ugh) in 2020. You just have to phrase it like a populist (haha): "so paying 1.3% less in taxes this year is worth our President being buddies with Putin (the murdering, ex kgb, thief, richest man in the world, tyrant)."

    What are your thoughts on how things get better? Or is this thread highlighting your fear that things are unlikely to improve?
  • Pronouns and Gender
    I've heard the argument that money is a social construct and this is used as an example of how gender might also be a social construct. Indeed, there are examples of societies that do not use money and have no concept of money (Awa people of the Amazon, for instance). Therefore, we should be able to identify a society that has no concept of gender.Roxanne Kelly

    I still do not have a strong opinion on this topic. I have just been reading the back and forth to see if I would be persuaded in any direction. Still not there, but I think what you are getting at here is logical and potentially significant to the discussion. I look forward to any responses. good stuff.

    As it was your first post, I will point out that since you did not tag anyone in your response, it may take a while before everyone sees it. (usually try to hit the @ button and type the name of the poster(s) you are responding to, and then they will get a notice - some people here are VERY active and may forget about the 8 different threads they commented on. Another option is to highlight lines of text - of other posters - and then a "quote" button will pop up - hit that and the lines will be added to your post AND the person is tagged)
  • Can populism last?
    Populism isn't tied at all to the current situation.ssu

    Openly populist parties emphasize this and their idea of populism leaves out (at least officially) the crucial ingredient: that populism has the important division to "us" and "them" and that "they", the elite, the establishment, the powers at be, are against their ideas.

    There's a distinct difference in saying normal democratic movement "We want this and the leaders should listen to us" and a populist movement "We want this and the leaders are against what we want".
    ssu

    I am confused. I thought the current situation is nothing but elite bashing. One side bashes government elites while the other is bashing corporate elites.

    Hmmm, oh, you are specifically referring to Scandinavia? Where government and big business was on-board with greater social welfare systems?

    Wouldn't they still be acting against international elites? Isn't socialism (ideally) against any type of "elite"? (which gets weird as surely there are still "elite" athletes, mathematicians, good looking people, or online forum administrators) Isn't any progressive tax system acknowledging that one type of "elite" exists?

    I think this might be another example of me going overboard on minutia/semantics?
  • Can populism last?
    I think the governing principle is not whether there is a deficit, but how large it is, and whether it is less than the rate of inflation. So if inflation is at the 2% target and the deficit is 1.5% then the total debt is increasing at less than inflation - ie decreasing in real terms. Interest rates also have a bearing. As they are now so low both govt and opposition are happy to borrow more. Infact they are talking about instituting new targets for the annual repayment of debt as a % of gdp (I think of ~3% for the Tories and ~5% for Labour), rather than just aiming to limit the size of the deficit.Tim3003

    Good argument support and thanks for informing me.

    Even given this, is it safe to assume that austerity measures will have to be implemented again in a never ending cycle? However, why does austerity (or, strong desire for a balanced budget) go in waves? If it is important, shouldn't we make permanent changes? Is the austerity needed for a balanced budget anywhere near the austerity required for a balanced environment? (I get that as a whole, we have not decided we want a balanced environment...but I can also find plenty of economists that will argue that a balanced budget is not that important)

    As you say, socialist policies would dominate if the easing of poverty was the populist view.Tim3003

    I think easing poverty is A populist view. I am a bit confused by THE populist view. Trump and Bernie are both populists. The populism of "the american dream" still just has more support than the populism of reducing poverty. (in America, things are different in Scandinavia) But it does feel like the populism of "billionaire's suck" is catching up with the american dream.

    At this point, I am not sure if I am disagreeing with you or just addressing certain nuances of your argument? Oh well, feel free to set me straight :smile:
  • Pursuit of happiness and being born
    To be unbound from all causes and conditions, where "exists", and "does not exist" doesn't even apply.Inyenzi

    Dang, almost sounds like Buddhist enlightenment.

    the experiences of this world are nothing but stress and suffering.Inyenzi

    Now that sounds exactly like Buddhism (I think, this is coming from someone that really only understands Buddhism through comments on this forum and some fictional novels by Jin Yong and Gu Long :grimace:).

    Interesting. I wonder what serious buddhists would think of antinatalism...Maybe you are one of those people? which would answer my question, I suppose.
  • Pursuit of happiness and being born
    Haha. I don't know if I have more faith in people's reasoning/analytic skills, but it does not mean I'll give up arguing and trying to appeal to their reasoning :). But you are right in that oft-times the preference is "baked in" to the person's psyche from all the cues provided from family and society as a youth.schopenhauer1

    Well keep up the tough work. If you start convincing large numbers then I will need to analyze your techniques, so that I can apply it to other walks of life. The older I get, the more I view humanity's biggest problem to be a regular and persistent avoidance of critical thinking by most people. Give the average adult a 5th grade math problem and see how they simply look to the person next to them and wait for an answer. However, give the average person on this forum a math problem, and they will likely enjoy the challenge of the puzzle (unless it is too easy or too hard)...but we should be aware that we are exceptions.

    Maybe it is just my life. But I only have one friend and one family member that enjoy getting into any sort of philosophical debate/discussion. The rest actually get annoyed when their opinions are challenged (I actually get rather excited in real life if someone challenges an assertion of mine - "great! here are the 500 reasons I believe that, what do you think is wrong?")
  • Can populism last?
    Put it this way: if a law were passed that levied a tax of X% of your income but gave you a tax credit of X% the mean income, in a country with an income distribution like the US about 75% of people would get more than they pay, and the whole thing would be neutral on the national budget because that's how math works. (Assuming X<100).Pfhorrest

    Good example of how a populist would NOT phrase their argument, haha. (that probably shows you are actually analyzing what good governance entails)

    In America, the average voter is one good break from being a millionaire (in their minds), so that is why they would not vote for their own best interest. They were sold (and bought) a different populist lie.

    Which suggests either that your thesis is wrong, or that we don't really have an open democracy. I lean toward the latter.Pfhorrest

    Well based on life experience betting on me being wrong is safe :smile: But I would agree that our democracy is limited. But I can think of one major populist idea that might push a little blame onto voters (in America anyway):

    That which governs best is that which governs least...or government is bad.

    My parents raised me on this garbage. And it was pure dogma. For the last 10-15 years I have called out that bullshit with evidence at every opportunity (in the gentlest and most respectful way possible, haha). They are starting to see the light (still republican, but at least anti-trump and realize that if small government is better, then there should be evidence, and they can't find it).

    If we look at populism in Scandinavian countries, it has resulted (at least more so) in many of the policies you would expect.
  • Can populism last?
    I think one can talk about it as a movement sweeping the Western world.ssu

    With the current accessibility of information, along with higher education levels, it seems that ANY modern democracy will be at the whims of populists. Why would voters vote for people they don't understand who offer benefits that don't apply to the voter?

    If a simple view of "populism" would be the political version of "give the people what they want", then of course it will dominate in an open democracy. None of us know the best way to govern, but we all know what we want.

    It seems only "tradition" (religion, party preference, allegiances, etc) would convince commoners away from a populist vote (damn that sounds condescending, to clarify, I would count myself as a commoner, generally).
  • Can populism last?
    and 8 years of austerity.Tim3003

    During 8 years of austerity (that you mentioned is coming to an end), Britain's national debt increased. Why not make it austere enough to have an impact? Why is it ending when "progress" has been so slow? I get that the deficit has dropped significantly since 2007-2008, but a large chunk of that would have occurred anyway as the economy recovered. The UK is still running a deficit, with austerity ending wouldn't we expect that to start trending up again (in a few years, I think they have planned budgets for a while)?
  • Artificial Emotion: The ethics of AI therapy chatbots expressing sympathy & empathy.
    Similar to that episode from Seinfeld where George's mom receives advice from an 'Asian' lady on the phone which she considers to be gospel. Yet once she learns that the 'Asian' lady is actually 'Caucasian', that advice is rendered meaningless. This would be value maybe acquired through stereotypes.JoeStamos

    I think I mostly agree with your post, and using an example from Seinfeld to make your point means you are golden in my book.

    Other people here have more sophisticated intellects that may have a higher standard...but nice post #1 :up:
  • Artificial Emotion: The ethics of AI therapy chatbots expressing sympathy & empathy.
    And yet, we are social animals. We do not flourish in solitude. We need human contact like we need food.Monitor

    I do not deny that at all. But I do not necessarily need empathy from others (or at least that is what the analytical half of my brain is always trying to tell me).

    Perhaps the chatbot provides an easy candy (false food) when we need immediate gratification.Monitor

    That is exactly my thought. Along with the idea that MOST of the time, when it comes to empathy, all we really need is the immediate gratification. When someone complains about having a bad day, they DO NOT want me to analyze what has happened in their day and start giving them suggestions on how to change their behavior so they never have another bad day (believe it or not, this is my natural reaction to someone saying they are having a bad day - I have worked for years on changing it so I seem much more normal). No, they just want a little sympathy/empathy - immediate gratification.
  • Does a person have to perceive harm/bad happening to them for it to really be called Harm/bad?
    Out of nowhere, a masked man steals the mans wallet, punches him in his face and has sex with the mans wife in front of him.Mark Dennis

    If you reduce the happening to just a punch in the face, I might be able to agree with no harm (although not feeling pain reduces our awareness of harm done, not eliminates the harm - if he gets a broken nose resulting in a deviated septum or something, it is a problem whether he feels it or not). The wallet and the wife bring all sorts of implications into the scenario that suggest some sort of harm has been done. I think @Pfhorrest pointed that out more directly.

    I am not suggesting you have taken a stance, but if we think it is ok to perform these actions because the man won't be conscious of it, then haven't we justified any and all actions to any being that is deemed unconscious? If so, where we draw the line of conscious/unconscious would be a MASSIVE debate of huge importance.

    I guess your PTSD/friends & family examples suggest that any action against an unconscious being is justified unless a conscious being witnesses the event and is somehow harmed.

    As much as I thought I knew my answer to the thread title (yes, they must perceive the harm to be harmed), a quick bit of thinking and reading and I am much less convinced (the scenarios would have to be VERY specific for me to be comfortable with "no harm"). Interesting stuff.
  • Artificial Emotion: The ethics of AI therapy chatbots expressing sympathy & empathy.
    does that mean Effective Empathy is skill based not emotion based?Mark Dennis

    Someone may have a more educated answer, but based on personal experience, I would answer yes (or at least somewhat).

    Many people in my life have called me unemotional, almost robotic. I am quick to point out that I have all the same emotions, they are just LESS. However, I do struggle to empathize. I understand intellectually that others are in pain, but I do not feel their pain. I have learned that when someone complains of a problem in their life, they typically are NOT looking for a solution, but, instead, just want a hug and some sympathy. Unfortunately, I can't really do unsolicited human contact so I can't even imitate that one :grimace: However, I have found other areas where imitation of empathy is good enough.

    For example, when someone asks if I am proud of them, they are not looking for an explanation of my personality and why I hardly do the whole pride thing (whether in myself or others). I have been shocked to learn, that if I just answer "yes", that they are happy and move on with the conversation. I figured there was no way it would work from me, because it was not genuine. It was not emotional. It was simply me giving the response that they wanted...but it works. I would think the chatbot would be at least as effective at imitating empathy as I am :smile:

    Not to be cynical, but do we really know when some one genuinely cares about our troubles? Certainly there can be many motives and many filters. At some level don't we project the meaning and relief upon the helpful empathy that we believe we are receiving?Monitor

    Haha, my personal experiences above certainly suggest that you are dead on with this stuff :up:
  • Welcome to The Philosophy Forum - an introduction thread
    I live in Leicester, a small city in the UK midlands.Chris Hughes

    Welcome. These are good years to be a football fan in Leicester :smile:
  • A listing of existents
    On yours, in the way of relationships, the number of such immediately explodes into an uncountable infinity of descriptions of relationshps, and of everything in every combination.tim wood

    I would not use the word infinity, but I can certainly agree with uncountable. I don't see this as a problem.

    And we have to consider that the existence of relationships, in this case, in as much as they do not depend on mind, must be real in virtue of something other than mind, and thus not necessarily accessible in any way by thee and me.tim wood

    Well the existence of these relationships is no more dependent on mind than the existence of the objects...right? You conceded the physical objective existence of the objects early in the OP (I thought?). If the objects exist, the relationships equally must exist. Are you suggesting that everything that exists, exists entirely independently from everything else until a mind suggests otherwise? I didn't have you pegged as a religious fellow (notice any "evolution" of the universe prior to life would have only occurred because of physical relationships - along with wherever we decide "force" fits into this whole situation).

    When we say "Earth is in the Milky Way galaxy", if we concede the physical existence of some thing we call "earth" and some thing we call a "galaxy" that we have further labeled the "Milky Way", then that statement is 100% true even with no mind right? Are you trying to say all these things exist, but the relationships do not? Earth is not in the Milky way? Why not? What makes that a more subjective statement than "earth exists"?

    even if it destroys by explosion the concept of existence via the notion of relationship.tim wood

    Dang, I suck at this stuff. That was not my intention at all. Relationships are just an addendum to existence. Once existence is established within a contained environment (the universe), then relationships are a tangible aspect of that existence.

    But I invite you to consider whether relationships can be a different species of existence, or if instead they fall into ideas/mental constructs - that is, will you develop your thinking a bit more so that we might fall on one side or the other?tim wood

    So this entire post is describing why I don't think relationships fit into the mental construct arena. They are mental in that we use words to describe them, but that equally applies to any physical object. They are not mental because they exist regardless of any mind. But surely the relationships are not physical things themselves. If the physical objects disappear we are left with nothing, not relationships.

    So, for me, relationships do not fit into either category. We could call it a mix of the two if we are very opposed to a 3rd category, but I would struggle to accept just one.
  • Simplicity-Complexity
    I guess I'm using intelligibility/comprehensibility as a good yardstick for discerning the simple from the complex. Do you think that's wrong? If yes, why?TheMadFool

    I might think it is wrong (and that is not the only definition/method you have used in this thread). That is part of what I have been trying to tease out. Since you don't like any of my questions, I will answer one to show my confusion:

    is a black hole very simple or very complex?ZhouBoTong
    Obviously from an intelligibility/comprehensibility perspective it is off the charts complex. However, we can create tiny black holes in labs (that actually exist for fractions of a second). Also, they have just one part (the singularity) making them ultimately simple. But their gravity can potentially allow them to interact with a huge number of things. So if someone said a black hole is simple, they would be right - and if someone said a black hole was complex, they would be right.
  • A listing of existents
    I will get to the force stuff in this post, as that is clearly the part that you felt may be significant. However, I just have to try the relationship thing one more time.

    Also, I think I read through most of the posts, but certainly feel free to point me at anything I may have missed.

    The difficulty I have is that the relationship is no thing separate from the objects themselves. Two stones are near each other, and no others are close. That must be two, yes? No. the two is in the mind of the observer who associates the idea of two with the two stones.tim wood

    Not quite what I was going for. Yes, the relationship between the 2 stones is in the observer's mind, but it is also a physical relationship. 2 stones in Florida are closer together than one in Florida and one in Russia. Whether we use human language to describe this or not, it is as true as the rock's physical existence is "true". How about "Earth is in the Milky Way galaxy"? While none of those words necessarily have any meaning, we have assigned them meanings and all together what they express is true, right? But earth being located in the Milky Way does not seem to be a 1. physical thing or 2. JUST an idea/mental construct...?

    I'm looking on line for a definition of force , but haven't found a good one. How would you define "force?"tim wood

    Wow, the dictionary definitions ARE rather inadequate aren't they?!? The physics definition from a textbook is more what I was thinking, something like: a force is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object

    I was thinking that besides the 4 fundamental forces we would be able to point to some physical object as the origin of "force"...but I guess whatever its origin, force could still be something different than the 2 classifications of "things" you gave. interesting.
  • Pursuit of happiness and being born
    Not letting down or hurting family, the culture surrounding procreation, the ideal of family life, etc.schopenhauer1

    I think these are major, self defining issues for many people. And whether they self-defined at age 7 is irrelevant to them. Letting down the family is not an option for many people. And if they have had a vision of an "ideal" family life for the last 20 years, achieving it will feel good and not living up to it will be depressing.

    I don't mind replacing "emotion" with "preferences", but I would want to add "given", or "automatic", or "beyond reason" to preferences. My point is that the rational/logical portion of the brain does not even engage. Does it seem safe to say that the vast majority of everyone who seriously considers whether or not they should have kids ends up choosing to NOT have them? Because those that do have kids, never even think about it (they may analyze when is a good time, but not the question of EVER having kids). If I had happened to meet someone I really liked and got married in my early 20s, It is possible that I would have had kids a couple years later. It wasn't until my mid to late 20s that I actually considered the question of having kids or not. Then it took about 5-7 years to arrive at a solid, "oh hell no".

    I think you have more faith in people's reasoning/analytic skills than I do :smile:
  • Abolish the Philosophy of Religion forum
    To be brief, I think the evidence of the site is that a philosophical discussion of religion is not possible here.tim wood

    If not here, then where?

    I do get what you are saying though. I find most of the religion/atheism threads to be boring and repetitive. However, I voted to keep the section, because for about a year, those posts did not bore me. I had thoughts and questions, and was surprised to see the positions of other people. But after reading and/or participating in many of those threads, I feel I have likely said/heard all the major points that can be made.

    So while I agree that those threads can't go anywhere for those who are experienced in the discussion, they can be interesting and even informative to people who are new to philosophy (and I don't mean new to serious academic philosophy, I mean new to delving into questions like "is there a god?")

    But I certainly understand your feelings that those threads are quite unproductive.
  • Can populism last?
    One definition of populism is this:

    a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
    Terrapin Station

    Yes, but it doesn't 'strive to appeal' in my view. It latches onto base fears, exploits and manipulates them with half-truths and lies; and its aim is to benefit the egos and megalomania of its leaders rather than the ordinary people.Tim3003

    Terrapin gave the definition of populism. What you (Tim3003) describe is someone using a populist style to trick voters (which might be more common, haha).

    In the US populism largely began with Andrew Jackson. Although he was an ass, he spoke directly to voters and promised to address issues that they could understand and cared about. Prior to Jackson, we had things like the Federalist Papers where politicians argued and tried to convince Americans of their ideals through a series of long essays - notice this is NOT going to appeal to the common man.

    MANY modern politicians are populists. If we need examples on the left Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren come to mind. The 2% wealth tax to pay for free college is a populist idea (I happen to like it, but it is very populist). Ranting against wall street and the big banks is populist (the average American will never attempt to actually understand this stuff, so Bernie just hits the emotional highs).

    When do politicians give serious consideration to compromise? When do politicians suggest we have to face difficulties if we really want things to change? These are truths of governing that populists will avoid.

    In today's hyper-partisan world where citizens hear every word and thought of every person running for office, if you are not a populist, you will lose.

    I saw someone recently characterize the difference between left-wing populism (which is a thing) and right-wing populism something like this: both are ostensibly in favor of the common people against their elite rulers, but left-wing populists see the "common people" as the laboring classes (proletarians) generally and the "elites" as the wealthy ownership classes (bourgeoisie) generally, while right-wing populists see the "common people" as the "middle class" (petite bourgeoisie) of the "normal" national identity (race, language, religion, etc) within the country in question, and the "elites" as some nefarious international cabal of foreigners and their political puppets within the country in question.Pfhorrest

    This seems pretty accurate :up:
  • Pursuit of happiness and being born
    but the preference for procreating new people is not necessarily natural. It could be just as much a deliberative choice as buying a car, or choosing to get this dinner instead of that dinner.schopenhauer1

    You are right...but unfortunately MOST people makes MOST of their "choices" based on emotion, not reason. Do we really expect MOST people to be reasonable about the whole situation? Or have they "known" since they were 6 years old that someday they would grow up and have kids and they are basing their adult "decision" on that same "knowledge"?
  • A listing of existents
    A physical relationship? Care to say how that is?tim wood

    Block A is next to block B.

    Rope C connects blocks A & B.

    Force X effects object Y

    Even if it takes language to express the relationship, it does physically exist (right?)...Am I making any sense?
  • A listing of existents
    I offer here what I think is an exhaustive listing (i.e., why it might be a short thread).

    1) All material things.
    2) All other things existing by reference, but not material, as ideas/mental constructs.
    tim wood

    Just for fun, trying to think of some"thing" that falls outside these two categories...

    What about the relationships between "things"? They can be physical or abstract, but either way, seem to be a different type of "thing"? Or maybe not...I am not entirely convincing myself either way, haha.
  • Simplicity-Complexity
    That we can create a mountain and a hadron collider but not a cell or a human is clear evidence in which category these four items fall.TheMadFool

    Ah, but I think language is inadequate to describe what you are getting at. We can easily "create" people, right? whether naturally through sexual reproduction or even by combining sexual material in a lab. So you really mean, we cannot create a human "from scratch"...right? But neither can we create most things...how long would it take humans to synthetically create all of the elements heavier than hydrogen in sufficient quantity to build a mountain or the large hadron collider?

    I think limits of our knowledge, or "known/unknown" is more accurate than "complex/simple" in the situation you are describing. Too many factors go into "complex" and anything can seem "simple" to someone who thoroughly understands it. E=MC^2 is extremely simple. But truly understanding everything that the equation entails is a different story.

    We can create only things we understand the mechanics of and what is beyond our understanding and therefore can't create is a sign that some stuff are just too complex.TheMadFool

    I would prefer to focus on the "beyond our understanding" more than "too complex" as I know exactly what the former means, but the latter would usually require clarification/explanation/context.

    As a thought experiment...is a black hole very simple or very complex?
  • Simplicity-Complexity
    It is really just pointing out some confusion on my part as to what exactly you are suggesting with "complex"??
    — ZhouBoTong

    Do you consider deleting features from my understanding of complexity and simplicity or adding other features you think are necessary?

    Have a go.
    TheMadFool

    I thought I was making it clear that I do not understand your "understanding of complexity and simplicity"?

    That is what I was asking you to clarify.

    What is more complex, a cell or a mountain?...why? What is more complex, a human or the large hadron collider?...again, why?ZhouBoTong

    If you will answer these questions, I think that will clarify for me. If you can't answer them, then you understand my confusion.
  • Video games and simulations: Consequentialist Safe Haven?
    Could we also form an ethical life and consented sentence for criminals incapable of not committing crimes in the real world by just getting them to agree to go to a place where they can do whatever they want for the rest of their life, free of real consequences?[/quote]

    While I think you are on to something, society has not advanced far enough for this to become a reality. Surely, the "prison" you described is better than the lives of A LOT (most?) of people. Add in conjugal visits and it would be the ideal life for many.

    I doubt that people struggling to pay rent would vote for a massive increase in resources for criminals (or even for potential criminals).

    So I think it is a very interesting idea, but it may need to be postponed until we are closer to reaching the star trek utopia (elimination of scarcity).
    Mark Dennis
  • Simplicity-Complexity
    How? Can you name one man-made object that is more complex than humans?TheMadFool

    New York City? Civilization? Liverpool FC? Surely anything that is made up of humans is more complex than just humans?

    I get that you still have an argument, but I think you will need to provide context for words like "simple" and "complex". What is more complex, a cell or a mountain?...why? What is more complex, a human or the large hadron collider?...again, why?

    A complex system would have many components/parts and the relations between them would also be greater in number.TheMadFool

    This partially suggests that bigger is automatically more complex, so my large hadron collider example should suffice. There are far more connections between far more atoms. Although an ant would seem more complex than a large block of aluminum, so this suggests a different type of complex. Is the number of different components/parts more important to complexity or is it the total number of connections?

    I do not view anything I have said as a "haha, gotcha!". It is really just pointing out some confusion on my part as to what exactly you are suggesting with "complex"??

    I guess I have a very basic conception of the words "simplicity" and "complexity"TheMadFool

    I thought I did too :grimace: But as you can tell from my response above, after your OP, the definition of complex suddenly became insufficient (for me).
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    I’m only suggesting that the defining feature of racism is the attaching of significance to race.NOS4A2

    Yes, that is what you are suggesting. However, you are the first person I have ever heard define it that way, so it doesn't seem to accurately reflect usage.

    As no one is confused by the word "racism", it is hard not to assume ulterior motives from those who attempt to redefine it.
  • Effective Argumentation
    Argumentation at its bestBaden

    I am not sure this thread is the place for this (just say so - or ignoring me always works, haha), and I certainly like the way you have laid out arguments; however, I can't help but wonder about the word "best". Is the "best" argument the most logically/structurally sound, or the one that is most likely to convince the other side? Your post almost suggests they are the same thing, but I would struggle to accept that for most people I have met (it works for me though :grin:).

    I am a bit over-literal and under-emotional so I can struggle with rhetorical appeals (hence I like the style of argument you described), but there are times where other people can be quickly convinced with, for example, an emotional appeal. Take the average person having a bad day, I can use logic and reason to show them that they are in control of their own attitude, and try to convince them to be happier. I have tried this many times, and it almost never works. But then I see other humans have success where I failed. What was their reasoning? They walked up, gave the person a big hug, and empathized. A few minutes later, the other person feels better. Every time I see it, I get mad at myself for forgetting that simple option (not that I could do it anyway, but I should be aware of the solution). I get the situation I described hardly counts as an argument, but it shows the potential power of rhetorical appeals.

    Just wondering your thoughts...
  • Effective Argumentation
    I would not cite Wikipedia in an academic article, perhaps, but it's been proven to be quite reliable for information:Artemis

    thank you for that. studies have already addressed this misconception. It is not that wikipedia is perfect, but that "reputable" sources like encyclopedia Brittanica are similarly imperfect. And the wildly inaccurate additions are quickly fixed on wikipedia.
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    I suppose you’d hate an ethnicity, not a race. I’m not sure of the correct term in that case.NOS4A2

    Well for the last 80 years or so, the world has used the word "racism" to describe the above. In fact the term has been used so consistently that almost no one is confused by it despite the scientific technicalities you have pointed out.

    I also call tacos, "tacos", despite them technically being a wide variety items that could be made from corn or flour tortillas (or something else) and filled with some sort of meat (or not). As we get into it, the word "taco" can mean such a wide variety of things that it would almost seem meaningless, and yet we all know what someone means when they say "taco".

    What is your actual point? Are we pretending that you really don't know what people mean when they use the word racism? Or are you just trying to say that the term is not precise? If the latter, to what end? Most words are not very precise.
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    I’m merely arguing that abandoning the false and superstitious ideology of race gives one no grounds to be racist.NOS4A2

    So what? They are still behaving in a manner we find atrocious. Calling that atrocious behavior "racism" is likely at the bottom of most people's priorities. We want the behavior to stop. Sometimes these bad behaviors are committed by individuals, sometimes there are systemic aspects left over from a long history of atrocious behavior. For decades the world has referred to these behaviors as "racism". Does it matter if "race" is a scientific thing vs just a semantic symbolic thing (like most words)?

    {edit} I should probably correct myself: I implied that all systemic atrocious behavior was just leftovers from distant history, some is still be due to current intentional bad behavior (notice how wordy this discussion must become when we can't use the word race or racism).
  • Pronouns and Gender
    Please explain in what way you've noticed an atom.ZzzoneiroCosm

    One way is through models and enlarged photos. I can also read about atoms and notice their existence. Does that answer that? If not, please explain how you "notice" thoughts and we can re-word in a way that fits.

    Nothing; it's a verb, not a noun.Banno

    I think all @Terrapin Station is saying is that saying "I don't know" is less of an explanation than saying the part you do know. "I don't know" is NOT an explanation. But I agree (and I think Terrapin would too) that it is sometimes worthwhile to admit ignorance.
  • Do you lean more toward Continental or Analytic philosophy?
    @Pfhorrest@Terrapin Station

    Thank you both. I had googled these terms with mixed results. Between your 2 summaries I am feeling better informed. Still probably too ill-informed to get involved in the discussion, but I will be following along better as I read from the shadows.
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    You dont buy that definition of racism? How do you define it?DingoJones

    I don't think he does (define it). If a person simply denies everyone else's definition while never providing one, they can never be proven wrong. Unfortunately, the rest of us are left wondering what we are supposed to be proving.

    Based on his comments so far though, his definition of racism would be:

    "anything that takes race into account"

    Which I don't think any dictionary or any person here would agree with???
  • Why are We Back-Peddling on Racial Color-Blindness?
    The first thing we should do is stop being racist,NOS4A2

    I would guess you expect this response, but I suppose that means you will have a response...

    If we can just "stop being racist" why didn't we try that option with other laws/regulations? Why do we need murder laws, can't people just stop killing other people?
  • I, God must be atheist, am quitting the site... I feel stupid compared to many of you here
    It is time I hung my gloves up, and take up a less intellectually demanding hobby, such as crocheting or fishing.god must be atheist

    Is it just that easy? haha. I feel if I stop arguing I am no longer me :grimace:

    In any case, I felt I often agreed with your view, so your reasoning must be impeccable :smile:

    my success rate of winning contentious differentness in views on philosophical matters.god must be atheist

    uh, oh. I think my success rate is somewhere around zero. I am not convinced that I have persuaded anyone here to change themselves or their view of any particular issue. I am mostly just throwing ideas out with the hope that someone (anyone, please) agrees. Otherwise, it is just in my head (of course it seems reasonable TO ME).

    Well as someone who lurks here reading more than I contribute, I hope to see you back at some point. If not, enjoy fishing (I call your bluff on crocheting though :joke:).