Again, it seems obvious that it is (potentially at least) everyone's problem. — Janus

First of all I see that as a moral position.

I don't know about the answer "being in ethics", — Janus

If the problem is ethical then the answer is ethical. Feed everyone now and sacrifice the future. Save the future and let millions die.

The overarching problem seems to be how to decide what to sacrifice. — Janus

So the answer is in ethics?

The fact that they (apparently) cannot be fed sustainably just is the problem. — Janus

The greatest problems we collectively face are resource depletion, destruction of habitat, species extinctions, destruction of soils by the industrial agricultural machine that is needed to feed our absurdly over-bloated numbers. — Janus

This is how I see it. Is people starving the problem or the damage it would take to feed them the problem?

What are we prepared to sacrifice to address the primary problem of overpopulation? — Janus

So what is the primary problem of over population? And whose problem is it?

What I’m trying to say is that if we could feed all these people without damaging the environment, if that was possible, would you still regard population as a problem?

I agree that it will require (much) more than depopulation; — Janus

So you don’t think that, in theory, redistribution could change things?

It's a problem even if we just care about our own for the long term. — Janus

I think there’s a difference between managing the resources and population in a country like Australia and Africa or India. Australia could manage it, but India, that’s a different problem.

Greater well-being could be had with far far less material consumption. — praxis

How would that help India’s population problem for example? They had an imbalance without the modern consumer lifestyle.

“Capitalistic economic growth simply isn’t possible when the future is ever more expensive ... “

Edit: what choice does India have to deal with caring for its population?

If this is accurate, this is the primary problem we face. — Janus

If we care about other countries besides ourselves and our alliances?

As I understand it industrial farming practices, most notably the use of chemical fertilizers, which destroy soils and ecosystems are essential to feed the current population of around 8 billion. — Janus

So is your point of view coming from the idea that we can’t feed the world population, that that’s the primary problem?

I found it funny that you wrote country instead of continent. Did you at least get that part? — Wheatley

No I didn’t even notice. Slack on my part.

Does this include ideas like high density living? High density living, as practised in our big cities is a lifestyle. Is that detrimental to cities like huge populations are to nations. Even in countries like India people migrate from rural areas to cities for work compounding existing problems and creating new ones. Over population might be relative to countries. So how many people should particular countries have and how should they be dispersed?

I’m thoroughly confused now.

I thought it was related to Africa and Asia. But yes, you’re right.

Very interesting link (here). — Wheatley

I went there but I don’t get it.

You can make some crazy obscure and unique thread but nobody will respond and you'll stop doing it pretty fast. — Judaka

Well I guess that’s natural selection at work.

As our knowledge grows, the island expands, but so does it’s shore, which is to say the more we learn the more we realize how much there is we don’t know. What do you think? — Pinprick

Any intelligent person would realise how little they know. But to realise that then one needs to be intelligent. And what makes someone intelligent? Is it information, opinion, experience, exposure to news stories? What would it, should it, be? And who decides what it is, how it’s taught, how it’s passed on, how it’s used?

it’s good to remember that you are essentially a microcosm; one consciousness experiencing a small part of the world and influenced through your particular society or culture. — Pinprick

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. We are no longer “ one consciousness experiencing a small part of the world and influenced through your particular society or culture.” We are exposed to a global culture that has no centre. The COVID virus has raged across the world, but I personally have only lived it through television and the internet. But the culture I live in is loose and uncentered and it’s influence on those around me is less than it once was. In fact I might go so far to say there is no longer a sense of culture. There is something but I’m not sure how to define it.

The forum couldn't be a reflection of the world for the simple reason that the sample is not representative. Most members are either from the USA or the UK, some from Australia. The entire continent of Africa and large parts of Asia are missing from the forum.:chin: — TheMadFool

No, clearly not the world, if your assumption is correct. But you cannot know if the posters are from countries like Africa or Asia. Or maybe you referring to the imbalance from your perception of posts here? But let’s assume you’re right; the forum represents part of the world. That world, I’m assuming, is Western, and by that I mean the culture that has developed from Greek origins. I think that contributes to confirming my feelings about this forum as a metaphor for that world (the West), one of ennui and loss of direction. Because that is the world that may have exhausted itself first, or may have jettisoned too many traditions and beliefs along the way. Is it the exhaustion of the postmodern world? Maybe.

So your post has helped me focus on this a little more, which is what I hoped for.

Edit: I should have said continents not countries as pointed out by Wheatley.

Why do we have to read these long and painful books when they already read them years ago?! — Wheatley

I don’t think it’s so bad being asked to read them, but pointing them out helps. But the books are just a metaphor for knowledge passed on. What do we need from elders?

Interestingly some generations of elders go silent, like the men who returned from the war and said nothing. They feel they have nothing to pass on.

To read difficult long books and explain them to us in simple terms.. — Wheatley

That’s to pass on knowledge already gained. I forgot to include that. What a waste of time each generation or group having to start from scratch. And how neglectful, criminal, if elders don’t do it.

What should the role, if there should be, of elders be? To teach, to nurture, to discipline, to instil cultural values, to carry on a tradition, to create stability?

Because they have nothing to offer, because they’re a hinderance?

Back to my question; should old dogs be taken down behind the shed?

And I'm saying it's happened before and will happen again. — Outlander

You’re not being specific enough for me to understand. And if we’ve reached a unique plateau of innovation then why the ennui that, as I think you suggest, we’ve had before?

I looked at new members. Since the 26th 22 people joined up. I don’t see any of them having made a post. That happens day after day.

I tried making the technical stuff more accessible to everyone in my education philosophy thread, but it seems like a dud. — Wheatley

Give it some time. More struggling with ennui; things must happen now or it’s a failure.

I think this is probably why you're missing out on what's new. The exciting advances in science and technology also come from a bunch of people behind closed doors doing what looks to outsiders like incomprehensible magic or nonsense, — Pfhorrest

Why must it always go back to this? Science has achieved amazing things for us, so has technology. It’s also brought us problems. One of those is the ennui I sense. I’m using the forum as a metaphor for what I sense in the world: the endless, pointless discussions, about what a word means, who said what, what they meant and where they’re wrong. Basically just running on the spot.

You said something’s been happening for a long, long time. I asked what and you said “Destruction, strife, etc. “.

This was my reply: Doesn’t this almost sum up my post, a sort of fatalism that it’s all over. It reeks of ennui.

And this is your reply: That what's all over? Innovation, invention, that "human spirit of ingenuity"?

But your answer of destruction and strife just confirms my point, that there’s “a sort of fatalism that it’s all over”. The fatalism I’m talking about is what I see and sense in the world. I’m not saying it’s my view. I’m not saying that innovation is over, I’m saying there is a feeling, call it ennui, among people of weariness. Something that the posts on this forum also suggests.

You want more wide open gates, but as far as I can tell diversity of discussion isnt the mandate, quality is. — DingoJones

Yes, that’s part of my OP. But it reminds me of that saying; The operation was a success but the patient died.

Here’s a question then; do elders have anything to give us in the world we now live in?

I do the best to avoid them. :wink: — Wheatley

Just get a bigger stick.

There are huge consequences of failing. You're called names, you get excluded from discussions with all the popular users. Those are just from the top of my head. — Wheatley

That’s true. But it’s nothing really, we all know that, even if we can’t live it.

Approval; it’s all part of the rules game. That’s why I ask if this forum reflects the world.

I put the blame all the cranky users here. (There are a lot of them here unfortunately.) — Wheatley

Old dogs with no teeth.

I think it's because we've become more risk adverse. Everyone seems to be afraid to fail. I wonder why? — Wheatley

Good point. Why do you think?

Edit: and what is failure?

So, you don’t expect to make a difference? — praxis

Mmmm, I feel a trick question coming up.

Do I expect to make a difference? I expect myself to face up to the ennui.

I’d wager there have been people say this throughout history. — praxis

Yes for many, but not all, not those that made a difference.

“We the people...”

That’s a pretty amazing document, conceived and written from scratch.

The most annoying threads, in my opinion, are those that never come to any conclusion and go on indefinitely. — Wheatley

Which is my point. It’s because they have nothing new to say, but they crush some new OP that doesn’t make sense or is worded badly. I understand the demands for clarity, etc. But my OP isn’t just about
the forum, it’s actually looking for a new, stimulating subject or conversation. Chose a word and begin, be artists, be human and get your hands dirty.