I am not entirely clear about the purpose of your thread, whether it is about looking at the experiences themselves or what it means. I think that both are probably important. — Jack Cummins

Both! This thread is in the lounge; it's just about all things OOBE. You say you've had many, so I'm all ears to hear about the details, your interpretations, your philosophical interpretations of them...whatever, if anything, you're comfortable sharing.

I have definitely had what appeared to be out of body experiences on a number of occasions, most often on the borderline of sleep. I can remember one in which I was flying around the room, and knowing that my body is lying on the bed. — Jack Cummins

How "conscious" would you say you were? I guess that question leads into your next paragraph.

The philosophy question which remains for me is whether such states are really what they appear to be, and supporting the idea of dualism, or whether they are illusory? — Jack Cummins

If the out of body state is "what it appears to be", I don't think this necessitates a hard dualism.

If dense is a better word, I would amend it to "needlessly dense".

I agree with you.

I assume in good faith you didn't add that addendum you quote here to your post above in order to make it look like I ignored it. :wink: (although for clarity, you could have just asked it as a new question, rather than quoting your own edit of your own post).

As to your questions, if you re-read my exchange with Protagoras, you might get a sense. :razz:

No, sorry, I'm just suggesting that your beliefs in general (including your metaphysical beliefs) could potentially influence the experience itself. I've read reports of OOBEs that suggest this; I'm not saying that I'm predisposed to agreeing with that, or that I believe it myself.

But yes, it does seem like a belief in being able to do it is needed, I agree there. Although in my case, I had sleep paralysis long before I had any belief about my ability to experience consciousness outside the body.

Well,the prime thing is you must be determined enough to believe and practice with intense desire. — Protagoras

Right, and so belief (which includes a metaphysic?) seems to be a pre-requisite, at least to me.

So you deliberately write in an obfuscating manner and when asked to clarify, demand to be re-read in order to screen out people who demand better writing? :rofl:

I think if you just focus and have faith in your ability to project that will be enough. Unless you have some metaphysics or beliefs you are bringing to the table? — Protagoras

I'm suggesting that we all do automatically.

One can just practice and experience the phenomenon,and vocalise the metaphysics later. — Protagoras

I wonder if one's pre-existing metaphysics will influence the subjective experience itself, though.

What kind of details are you interested in, the practical preparation or the actual experience? — Protagoras

Both, but more so the actual experience.

As you said its when definitions and rigid metaphysics sets in that the issue gets a bit opaque. — Protagoras

At the same time though, I'm not sure how this is avoidable. We each have a metaphysical lens through which we view these experiences.

I'd be curious to hear details on your experiences, but recognize it's personal, so no pressure.

I think when it gets into a community or organisation that's when I generally go my own way. — Protagoras

I do the same, I'm just exploring what if any evidence there is that they are the same experiences, or related "versions" of the same. This territory starts to get pretty swampy the further in you get; sometimes trying to set definitions only compounds the problem.

That's clearer, yes, with the caveat that it's not quite discussed that way in the OOBE "community", if you will, at least to my understanding. There is a more explicit belief that "you" are leaving your physical body; so there is a equation of "you" with the non-physical. You're still connected to your physical form, but you are leaving it. I'm not saying I think this is true or not, just making the distinction. But it does open a potential can of worms.

I'm getting a bit confused about your experiences and stances here; so you have astral projected, but you consider it to not be "out of body", but you have had an experience of "extended consciousness beyond the body"? But that was not an astral projection to you?

But,on closer inspection through talking with you here,how much of a distinction is there really? — Protagoras

I'm not sure.

Mainly I don't consider a person actually leaves their body literally but just projects themselves from within the body. — Protagoras

Yeah, the metaphysics of this are unclear, and can't really be demonstrated in any substantial way, I don't think. Your perception of your experience seems to be what makes it so, if that makes sense. I don't think there's really a vantage point that can be taken to definitively make the distinction one way or another.

Yeah, my understanding is that astral projection and OOBE are terms for the same experience, but I guess there's not necessarily a way to substantiate that. Monroe specifically states that he avoided the term astral projection in order to minimize occult connotations.

So you have had an OOBE? Or rather, you've astral projected but distinguish the two in your mind?

I'd be curious to hear any details, but no pressure.

I'm not questioning your intelligence or knowledge, but you would have received a D at best in the honors English course I took in college. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just a simple fact.

I know of a successful OBE from focusing whilst sitting on a sofa. — Protagoras

Was this your experience or someone else's?

Must be you, ND, because my writing is clear enough for most others I interact with on these fora. — 180 Proof

Perhaps they put up with it. :wink:

moving meditation — Protagoras

For sure; I've definitely had what I would call meditative experiences while walking.

His techniques mirror some meditation techniques in some ways I think, yes. The difference might be the setting; a sitting position for a lot of meditation techniques vs. the brink of the sleep state for Monroe and other OOBE practitioners.

Not confusing, just not quick reading. You got the gist with slightly more effort to unpack the post (without spoon-feeding my understandings). — 180 Proof

I don't ask for quick reading or spoon feeding, I just prefer clear writing, especially when writing about complex ideas.

So now on to the topic of the thread: do you have any thoughts about supposed naturally occurring OOBEs as reported and written about by Robert Monroe and others? If not, that's fine too.

Sure, I think all forms of consciousness that are a departure from everyday waking life are most likely related in some way. I'm just specifically interested in naturally occurring OOBEs as discussed in books by Monroe and others.

These visions and episodes have a personal meaning. — Protagoras

I agree.

so the psychoactives listed above (all of which I'd repeatedly indulged decades ago) induce suppression of bodily-awareness and thus "OBE" — 180 Proof

So, for me, psychoactive induced OOSM aka "OBE" — 180 Proof

It's possible I misread you, but your distracting use of text formatting and convoluted sentence structures do not do you any favors.

So, for me, psychoactive induced OOSM aka "OBE" had showed me that, without psychoactives, StE is not only possible to self-induce but more preferable and more holistic. — 180 Proof

So are you saying your use of psychoactive drugs showed you that it's better to have what you label StE without the use of psychoactives? and if so, are you then referring to this list you made:

contemplation, meditation, prayer, play & sleep — 180 Proof

Which you then define as "ecstatic techniques"? Or are you referring to naturally occurring OOBEs that are induced simply by learning a method such as found in Monroe's book? Can you see how confusing your post is?

Your first post just equates naturally occurring OOBEs with psychedelics without an argument as to what makes naturally occurring OOBEs an illusion, or why you equate them with psychedelics.

By organic I mean not induced by any foreign substance.

Besides, "OOBEs" are illusions — 180 Proof

Can you make an argument for this rather than an assertion?

I wonder about the connection between dreaming in general, as well as lucid dreaming, with OOBE's as well, but as above with 180, I'm not beginning with any assumption that they are the same experience. They could be, but I'm not assuming anything. What seems to delineate OOBEs from dreaming (and perhaps from psychedelics, @180 Proof?) is the retention of full conscious awareness.

Remote viewing I haven't read up on as much, but it does seem to be connected with certain types of OOBEs.

I've wondered about the connection between psychedelics and OOBEs as well, but I don't begin by assuming they're the same experience (seems like the right word to me).

Do you have any thoughts on organic OOBEs, rather than drug-induced states, as that's what the thread is about? I assume you haven't had one from what you're saying?

As far as I've discerned (the intrinsic) benefit of intermitten StE: gradually gaining a non-egoic understanding of others' lives and one's life, livelihoods and life-worlds. — 180 Proof

This I can get down with.

I'm down to take a shot.

Perfectionism is the opposite side of low self-esteem — Bitter Crank

As a perfectionist with low self-esteem I beg to differ.

Ha, I can try to dig something up. The better examples are works in progress still.

I'm not sure what argument you're making, if any. Hazy generalizations don't get us anywhere.

Honestly it's been so long since I've read that book that I probably need to revisit it. I'm sure the way I use intensification is a pale comparison to the richness of it's use in Hebrew poetry. Basically what I do is take a musical time signature such as 7/8 (7 eighth notes per measure grouping) and then gradually "intensify" it by peeling off eighth notes; so the time signature would change to 6/8 for instance, and maybe all the way to 5/8 before shifting back to 7/8 or maybe even eventually expanding to 9/8.

The concept of Intensification is the one that's influenced me the most. I use it sometimes to create rhythmic structures in music, to the point that I sometimes write intensified structures subconsciously nowadays.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're critiquing a literalist interpretation of the Bible, which is pretty well known to be an extremely minority view among Christians, so it's sort of a straw man to discard the Bible on that basis.

I think the Bible can serve as a starting point in exploring philosophical questions; it certainly did for me, and probably has for a lot of people raised in the Church. If anything, it still acts more as an irrational specter in the back of my mind when I address philosophical questions. I still find myself thinking in it's terms; "I'm too selfish", "I judge others too quickly", "I don't love others enough", etc.

As other people pointed out, whatever philosophical information one might be able to glean from the Bible is generally couched in a lot of interpretation; in other words, it requires rigorous interpretation to get anywhere. There is actually a lot of very rich stuff to be found; The Art of Biblical Poetry by Robert Alter is a fascinating exposition on that topic and is still to this day an influence on how I create music as an artist. Stories from the Old Testament such as Job, Jacob wrestling with the angel, and God cutting in half sacrificial offerings made to him (which is interpreted Messianically in Christianity) are deeply rich with suggestive meaning and can hold their own with not only other religious texts but with philosophical texts and great art as well.

So I think it's possible to glean valuable stuff from the Bible, in the same way other religious texts have value. It just carries such an ideological weight with it in the Western world that a middle position such as the one you're attempting to hold is rare and often attacked from both sides.

I've recently been obsessed with learning about Nag Hammadi and early church history. Fascinating to what extent there appears to have been a political bent or power struggle that gave birth to orthodoxy. The Gospel of Thomas in particular has some interesting statements, such as "do not tell lies and do not do what you hate." Sounds good to me...

The Meaning Of The Creative Act - Nikolai Berdyaev
The I Ching
The Witch - David Lindsay
The Master and Margarita - Mikail Bulgakov

Yes it is. The second track is my favorite.