Comments

  • You are only as good as your utility
    Wasn't Schopenhauer a student of Eastern philosophy? — unenlightened
    Yes, but not that kind of Eastern philosophy. He preferred the depressed kind ;)
  • Philosophical alienation
    Doesn't deny that Nirvana is permanent, basically? — praxis
    Yes, it doesn't not only not deny it, it affirms that Nirvana is permanent. A good book is:

    Some Sayings of the Buddha by F.L Woodward

    It doesn't have such a Western bias as other introductory books.

    conditions don't apply. — praxis
    The unconditioned reality cannot be impermanent. Impermanence is conditioning by the 5 skhandas and interdependent origination.
  • Philosophical alienation
    So - you are asking Agustino, if he can back-up a mythical idea ? — charleton
    :-d
  • Philosophical alienation
    Can you back this up with some doctrinal reference or anything? — praxis
    Samyutta Nikaya 3.196 discusses:

    At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: “Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?”
    “Just this Radha, form is not the Soul, sensations are not the Soul, perceptions are not the Soul, assemblages are not the Soul, consciousness is not the Soul. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled, what must be done has been done"

    Digha Nikaya 2.100:

    "Atman (the soul) is the only refuge, is the light within”

    Majjhima Nikaya 1.341:

    "The Soul has become like unto Brahma"

    Arguably the most detailed on this topic is the Mahaparanirvana Sutta:

    "O good man! We speak of "Nirvana". But this is not "Great” “Nirvana". Why is it "Nirvana", but not "Great Nirvana"? This is so when one cuts away defilement without seeing the Buddha-Nature. That is why we say Nirvana, but not Great Nirvana. When one does not see the Buddha-Nature, what there is is the non-Eternal and the non-Self. All that there is is but Bliss and Purity. Because of this, we cannot have Mahaparinirvana, although defilement has been done away with. When one sees well the Buddha-Nature and cuts away defilement, we then have Mahaparinirvana. Seeing the Buddha-Nature, we have the Eternal, Bliss, the Self, and the Pure. Because of this, we can have Mahaparinirvana, as we cut away defilement."

    "O good man! "Nir" means "not"; "va" means "to extinguish". Nirvana means "non- extinction". Also, "va" means "to cover". Nirvana also means "not covered". "Not covered" is Nirvana. "Va" means "to go and come". "Not to go and come" is Nirvana. "Va" means "to take". "Not to take" is Nirvana." "Va" means "not fixed". When there is no unfixedness, there is Nirvana. "Va" means "new and old". What is not new and old is Nirvana.
    "O good man! The disciples of Uluka [i.e. the founder of the Vaishesika school of philosophy] and Kapila [founder of the Samkhya school of philosophy] say: "Va means characterisitic". "Characteristiclessness" is Nirvana.”
    "O good man! Va means "is". What is not "is" is Nirvana. Va means harmony. What has nothing to be harmonised is Nirvana. Va means suffering. What has no suffering is Nirvana.
    "O good man! What has cut away defilement is no Nirvana. What calls forth no defilement is Nirvana. O good man! The All-Buddha-Tathagata calls forth no defilement. This is Nirvana.

    Buddhism in its traditional versions does not negate that there is an unchanging reality - which is Nirvana, Dhamma, Buddha. The Dhamma cannot be impermanent - that would be the height of folly, for then enlightenment could not be attained by following the Dhamma.

    The only thing Buddhism does is negate that the 5 skhandas are Self. Indeed, the 5 skhandas are anatta, empty of self.

    Western Buddhism on the other hand :D ... >:O
  • Philosophical alienation
    ↪praxis
    Right, but in Buddhist teachings, Nirvana isn't impermanent for example.

    And do you use emptiness to mean simply impermanent?
  • Philosophical alienation
    Do you know of anything like that? — praxis
    In Buddhist teachings the Dharma? Nirvana? Buddha-nature?
  • You are only as good as your utility
    ↪schopenhauer1
    Well, I think your questions start from the wrong presuppositions. You presuppose we must have a positive reason to procreate and to help - but the truth is that we need a positive reason to do the opposite. Procreating and helping is what comes naturally.

    For example, what I like most is problem-solving, pretty much regardless of what problem is in question. I enjoy the process, and it comes naturally to me. It's sort of like being an adventurer.
  • You are only as good as your utility
    ↪schopenhauer1
    In any kind of society that you'll ever imagine, people will generally be appreciated for their usefulness to others, and this doesn't include just economic usefulness. Helping others is key to being appreciated. Solving your society's problems is likewise key to being appreciated or valued.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    You're claiming that SpaceX is prohibited by the government to have any other contracts? — praxis
    That depends on the kind of contract they would have. Not in all regards, definitely not. But I would expect the US Government to be heavily involved if they were to get a contract from Iran for example.

    NASA, the military, and other industries will pay billions for the delivery of satellites into orbit. You claimed SpaceX doesn't fulfill a need or want. — praxis
    I referred with regards to its main purpose/mission which is space exploration or creating a human colony on Mars. That doesn't fulfil a need or want. It's kind of like "there's this mountain here, wouldn't it be fun if we could climb it?"
  • Philosophical alienation
    Do you know what I mean when I say emptiness? — praxis
    The Buddhist notion? There are several versions of Sunyata even there, so please provide more detail. But yes, I am very familiar with the Buddhist notion, though I do have a particular interpretation of it.
  • Philosophical alienation
    Why not? — praxis
    Why would it be peaceful in the first place?

    Is there an alternative? — praxis
    I don't really understand the question. What would it mean for there to be an alternative in this case?
  • On 'drugs'
    ↪Punshhh
    A life of leisure is pretty much useless though, so I'd say neither.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    Contracts are mutual agreements and many industries are regulated. None of this excludes competition. — praxis
    Sure, but business with the government is always different than business with a private.

    Google "orbital satellite." — praxis
    I'm not sure why you want me to Google that, but I suppose you may be referring to the refuelling missions they do for NASA. Nevertheless, that's not the purpose or aim of SpaceX, just what they do to be able to finance space exploration.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    It means you are overlooking the European Space Agency, France, UK, Israel, Iran, India, and North Korea. See here — Bitter Crank
    I see. I misremembered, my bad. SpaceX, Russia, US and China are the only ones who have successfully launched a spacecraft into orbit and returned it to Earth. That was what I had read. Hopefully, that is right now, but if you have evidence to the contrary, by all means prove me wrong! >:)
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    If SpaceX had a lot of competition it would be very relevant. — praxis
    Not really but it's a bit difficult to explain why. SpaceX is a very strange business. To start with, the technology they have which allows them to put rockets into space is most certainly extremely valuable. And I'm not talking just financially valuable. So far only 4 organizations have put rockets into space - the USA, China, Russia and SpaceX. Do you realise what this means?

    SpaceX is extremely valuable to the US Government. Therefore that means that the company must be, to one extent or another, controlled by the government. They cannot do whatever they want with their rocket technology. They cannot sell it to Iran for example, even if Iran were to offer them $50 billion for it. And let's not forget that the US Government has saved SpaceX from bankruptcy with loans or contracts several times already. SpaceX brings big benefits to the US Government, as it allows them to enhance space technology with - in part - private money.

    The other reason why SpaceX is strange is because it doesn't actually fulfill a need or a want. Nobody really is super keen to go to Mars for example, nor is that amazingly useful - what will we do on Mars? Colonize it, build a few human settlements, and what? :s Elon seems to like it, and to make all his life's work to get man on Mars, but to what end really? It seems like one of those goals we set up just because we see a big mountain and say it would be fun to climb that.

    In other words, in many regards, SpaceX is not a business. It's not like Apple. And quite frankly if it wasn't for government help, I think SpaceX would have been bankrupt.
  • Philosophical alienation
    What is it about what he says that you have such a problem with? — oysteroid
    A few things:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/118055
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/118644

    And the continued conversation there.

    That's an example. Basically, I really doubt his so-called expertise. His expertise and advice may be good for the mediocre, but it will keep them mediocre, it will certainly not make them any better.

    And he found an audience - teenagers and frustrated developed-world young men - who listen to his advice (which is the same advice as that of their parents most often) just because he dresses it differently. And he makes a killing doing this - he's making $70K/month and growing.

    Basically lots of talk, little results from him (except for himself, he is getting quite good results financially for himself).
  • On 'drugs'
    I agree, we in the west find comfort in and blindeness to our privelidge. Although as I said in our last interaction, we are going to have to get used to lives of leasure. Unless, of course, the world goes to the dogs. — Punshhh
    That's not because there aren't new things to discover, new exciting opportunities to expand human knowledge, to improve society, to get closer to God, etc. It's because most human beings are lazy.

    Those who are born hungry and think for themselves outrun those who are born privileged and think with the collective mind.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    Agustino, it's absurd to say that "apply[ing] scientific theory... isn't the same as thinking". It's not even wrong. — Bitter Crank
    I'm not sure if you understand the distinction that I'm making there. To think isn't that easy. Most people don't think. And that's true both amongst the university students and among the engineering companies I've seen.

    Applying scientific theory is not thinking, even though you can't see how that isn't even wrong. To think does not mean to go into your memory bank, find a similar situation, and apply that (scientific) theory to this present situation. That is precisely not to think, and to act out of habit. To think is to do what Newton did when he invented calculus. That is really to think - to go back to the basics and work your way up by yourself, without relying on the thinking of others or how things were done in the past. It is to truly understand.

    And I'm not sure why Galuchat finds this paradoxical (and by the way, his 35 years of experience doesn't impress me) - I remember even to this day when at university one professor gave us a problem we haven't been trained to solve, and then said solve it. And he told us how most of us will not solve it, since most of us, despite training to be engineers, will actually end up being technicians, because we are not capable enough to be engineers. And he explained that there's nothing wrong with that, but in this PC world, we are trained to think that if we attend university we are smart guys and girls. But most of us do not think, and do not trust our own judgement, and waste our time partying, socialising, etc. And he was right. This is precisely what I've seen in engineering companies.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    Jobs created an incredibly successful brand. The brand may eventually fizzle out, but creative business development and branding isn't a fad. — praxis
    Jobs was, more than anything else, a marketing genius. The importance of marketing in business is often misunderstood by those who are not involved in it.



    Marketing is actually the most critical element in most businesses - it's what separates the winners from the losers. For example, the whole process of starting a business is centred around how you can add value to whatever aspect. That requires a marketing perspective - understanding what people want and how their want can be fulfilled. So this is true for most businesses - unless you're doing something like Elon Musk with SpaceX. Then it's not as relevant.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    engineers — Wayfarer
    I have found out that most engineers out there aren't really capable to express themselves very well in writing. So technical writers are definitely needed to translate the specifications of engineers in a language that can be well-understood by the general public. However, the really great engineers typically are also quite articulate, though very pragmatic, and do not bother about explaining themselves.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    it tethers that impulse to a worldly goal rather than allowing that impulse to go it's natural course. — Noble Dust
    Yeah, but I seek to do the same too 8-)

    But then, the art world, music industry, etc., are all run by big money, and increasingly so. So the creative urge seems always to be "imprisoned". — Noble Dust
    Right, but this is precisely the fun, the challenge in business and in life. I keep thinking that if I was born a rich kid, with everything at my fingertips, what fun would life be? There would be no challenge, no iron-fisted demand upon my creativity and my intellect, nothing to apply myself to, nothing to challenge me. But having to start from literarily nothing - what an adventure. To have all forces opposed to you, and overcome them using your determination, intelligence, creativity and faith... that is truly a great life, and you discover who you really are in the process. You discover tremendous inner strength that you never knew you had before. You learn to trust in a force greater than yourself.

    So when it comes to making money, the creative approach to business will probably fizzle out relatively soon. — Noble Dust
    I agree, but even us super-methodical people need creativity. I am extremely pragmatic and down-to-earth when it comes to business, but solving problems does require a degree of creativity. And yet, I do see some people, some for whom I worked, who use less energy and methodical step-by-step thinking in running their businesses, and some of them have done quite well. Most people in business are FAR FAR less methodical and pensive than I am - I am a control freak and perfectionist with everything, and I literarily want to know and understand everything. Both a gift and a curse.
  • On 'drugs'
    complains about their 70+ hours work weeks and all I can do is grind my teeth. — Akanthinos
    You all complain, that doesn't surprise me. Everyone complains today :s - you all wished you worked 0 hours, I have no idea what you'd do then though.
  • On 'drugs'
    ↪Akanthinos
    The North Americans really are used to the easy life... My days, what has become of the world. Nietzsche's last men really are here :o
  • On 'drugs'
    You assume a lot. I have the distinct advantage to live in a country where a law degree from a prestigious university costs less than 4k a year. I work full-time, and but for a few intervals, have done so since I'm 20. — Akanthinos
    Right, so I suppose in the land of opportunity Canada everyone has lots of private tutors and goes to private schools?
  • On 'drugs'
    Mine was that my dad had just decided to make a hole in the wall with me, and I had had enough of semi-abusive helicopter parents by the time I had turned 18. That seemed conducive to my packing my shit and leaving without saying a word. — Akanthinos
    Ok, but it surely sounds like you have had, financially and materially, quite a privileged upbringing:

    I was sent to private school my whole life, had a lot of tutors, played 10 years of piano. Since I came back from Alberta, I've finished a Law degree and am nearing the end of my Philosophy one. — Akanthinos
    Most people simply cannot afford the luxury to do a law degree and a philosophy one on top of it immediately after. And yet I would venture to guess that you have all this money for it from your family right? Are you working at the moment? Or how do you pay your bills?

    I fully intend on doing a Master and a Doctorate afterwards (although I have no clue on what yet). — Akanthinos
    Oh dear...
  • Philosophical alienation
    my dog's basically in palliative care now — praxis
    Sorry to hear about your dog.

    Actually, I woke this morning at around 3 am by some bad dreams and couldn't get back to sleep. — praxis
    That used to happen to me sometimes. A nasty feeling. But there's nothing to do to escape that feeling, just waiting. Trying to do something to escape it makes it worse.

    I find meaning and relief from existential anxiety in the concept of emptiness. — praxis
    Emptiness means that even the things you care about are empty though. That doesn't sound very peaceful.

    Agustino's concept of God is derived from culture — praxis
    All concepts are linguistically mediated and therefore derived from culture, just like language. However that which the concepts point to, that isn't derived from culture.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    I'll take that as a "no". — Galuchat
    You can take it as whatever you want if it makes you feel better :-!
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    During the course of a 35 year long career in consulting engineering in four different countries, I've never met an engineer, technologist, or technician who didn't apply scientific theory, perform calculations, and think. — Galuchat
    Yeah, so what's your point? Applying scientific theory and performing calculations isn't the same as thinking. Engineers do think (or at least they are supposed to, but I think many of them don't either) - technicians don't.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    One of the reasons for having teamwork is to combine creative engineers or designers with "plug and chug" types. — Bitter Crank
    The difference between an engineer and a "plug and chug" type technician is just that one is willing to think, and the other one isn't.
  • Art vs Engineering in Business and Work
    Entrepreneurship requires creativity, yes? — praxis
    Depends, sometimes I guess. Though not all entrepreneurs are Silicon Valley type of entrepreneurs, and I think nowadays we often get the idea that an entrepreneur is like the Silicon Valley guys. Most entrepreneurs that I know (and worked for) are far from the most creative people.

    What kind of business do you run, just out of curiosity? — praxis
    Web development and marketing.

    I'm an engineer (major) — darthbarracuda
    Yeah, I'm an engineer by degree too ;)

    lots of math and theory, but also just good intuition — darthbarracuda
    Right, but now you're making a distinction that I never made. When I contrast the art v. engineering approach, I am not contrasting the technician (who can apply math and theory) but the engineer who frames the issue that the technician can then solve.

    Rather I am talking about something more basic. An approach to problem-solving and intuition if you want. The engineer's approach is characterised by a conscious decision to think things through from the most basic level systematically upwards. The artist's approach is characterised by a leap to the correct answer, that lacks methodical step-by-step procedures.

    I gave the example in the post of Steve Jobs compared to Elon Musk. Steve Jobs was someone who intuited what customers wanted and valued, and then got it built. Elon Musk is someone who thinks things through from first principles. It's kind of like the Zen student's beginner's mind insight into the problem vs the step-by-step scientific approach.

    like engineers or scientists or whatever is their creativity, not just their ability to crunch numbers (we have computers, machines, robots, etc that can do a lot of the math for us, if it's already figured out — darthbarracuda
    No, actually the value people place on engineers is simply in their ability to get the job done. People can care less how. Of course that getting the job done doesn't only involve crunching numbers. You need to know what numbers to crunch, and what the numbers mean, which reflects the underlying assumptions that you make in your calculations. Questioning assumptions that are underlying the calculations is perhaps the most fundamental thing I've been taught in engineering school.

    So you need to be able to apply what you know to things that it hasn't been applied to before — darthbarracuda
    Yes.

    In that respect, engineering is really fun but it's also sort of weird once you realize how many things just barely actually work. — darthbarracuda
    >:O Yeah, engineering does leave you with a sense of how terribly uncertain everything actually is.
  • Things We Pretend
    Can you give me some derivation or heuristic that gives motivation not to steal or deceive people from your system of ethics? — fdrake
    My adherence to my system of ethics prevents me from choosing such means to achieve my ends. Values give motivation, they are goals - why you live your life. Stealing, deception, etc. these are at most means, but they cannot be values or ends-in-themselves. My system of ethics influences me in the means I choose to achieve the values that I have. However, I think one's values are to an extent or another given.
  • Philosophical alienation
    Surprised that this thread died down, oysteroid seems to have abandoned it as well.
  • Things We Pretend
    Examples of how your ethical system has guided you towards certain actions towards people? — fdrake
    For example, I don't steal or deceive people in order to grow my business.
  • Has 'the market' corrupted education?
    You were fortunate in that you had the aptitude to program. Spare a thought for the teeming thousands of entrants to computer science degrees who only found out that they didn't have this aptitude until they had already enrolled. It is one of the scandals of higher education of recent years. Your professor was laughing all the way to the bank. — Jake Tarragon
    I think such a thing literarily doesn't exist. I haven't found a thing that I can't do if I put in the time. Really, and that includes things I'm naturally clumsy and incapable at. It's all in the mind. If you have the right mindset, and are determined never to give up no matter what, then you'll find a way. Most people give up too soon.
  • Things We Pretend
    So, ethical philosophers of thephilosophyforum, what do you actually do with your ideas and systems? — fdrake
    Guides means of getting to ends. Ends are given - they are values. They're not determined by philosophical systems.
  • What pisses you off?
    Me: "Do you want X or Y?"
    Them: "Yes"

    Clients are the worst.     — Michael
    Yeah, that's very frequent. But it's normal, clients don't know what they want. You have to figure that out for them most of the time.
  • What pisses you off?
    What can you do about that? — praxis
    Ignore them :D
  • What pisses you off?
    People complaining about being pissed off by things, without actually doing anything about them.
  • What is True Love?
    I like Kierkegaard's Works of Love.
  • We Need to Talk about Kevin
    ↪fdrake
    I'm not on forum staff, so do I get to misbehave? :D
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