Comments

  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    "Eternity in a moment"Beebert
    :s Nietzsche isn't even the first to discover this idea, what's so amazing about it?

    "The marriage between light and darkeness"Beebert
    What do you find deep about this idea and why?

    Not just moral prejudice or a dry-headed intellect.Beebert
    :-}

    That his statement that his works are not for everyone is true is obvious when one observers your understanding of him even AFTER you have read his worksBeebert
    Or maybe his works are just:

    A tale, Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. — Shakespeare
  • What will Mueller discover?
    Funny, when I come here it's the same old bunch (creative and Wayfarer) grabbing tightly on their pink ponies and crying about Trump :D
  • Your Favourite Philosophical Books
    Owen Barfield - Poetic DictionNoble Dust
    Surprised you've listed this over Saving the Appearances. Admittedly, I haven't read it, but some of the reviews that I read of it certainly didn't inspire me to think it superior to Saving (or worth reading for that matter :P ).
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    Do you find it true or o offensive?Beebert
    The fact that he thinks so about his own works doesn't make it true to begin with (I find it quite laughable, poor Nietzsche), so you're creating a false alternative. No it is not offensive, but neither is it true. If you asked me the same question with regards to, for example, Plato's Republic, then I would affirm it is not for those who belong to the herd.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    You are sooooo full of yourself, dude. How about you go drop a pizza and then pick it up. That'll force you to stoop a little low for a change.Heister Eggcart
    The more Agustino writes, the more a thread becomes intolerable to participate in.Heister Eggcart
    So let's see. You come in a thread that I started and claim that the more I write the more the thread becomes intolerable - well, guess what, if it wasn't for me, the thread wouldn't exist in the first place :P >:O
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    The more Agustino writes, the more a thread becomes intolerable to participate in.Heister Eggcart
    :-} Yes, because he doesn't let you spew falsity
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    No, I'm saying the way you use "atheism" is wrong, I wasn't actually referring to the dictionary definition provided by LW.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    and that has already been defined.Sapientia
    Yes, wrongly defined by you, because it effectively replaces agnosticism as well.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    As I said earlier, there can be an overlap between atheism and agnosticism. I don't wish to trouble myself too much with the finer semantic details. But some, for example, make the point, drawing upon the etymology of the terms, about a distinction between knowledge and belief.Sapientia
    And you complain about moving goalposts? You should clarify what your terms mean, that's rule number one since Aristotle! :P You're protesting at her comments, but her comments actually make perfect sense, it's only you, with your confusions between atheism and agnosticism that is creating problems at the moment.

    Personally, I take atheism to be against the existence of God, positively. Most of such views are based on the problem of evil ultimately. It is so for Nietzsche for example.

    You're just basically echoing my own point back to me. Yes, it should have been worded better so that it doesn't look like a confusion of what it is to be an atheist.Sapientia
    I actually thought that LW's remark which I quoted was quite well worded. Sure she didn't clarify that the structure in question refers only to atheism, but that's pretty much clear from the context. I think your reading there was quite uncharitable and problem-seeking in nature.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    Now if someone wants to curse terrorists, or yell at a particular extremist Muslim or whatever, that is different.0 thru 9
    Just because the referents of the words point to the same underlying person does not mean that they both describe Him equally well. I made no mention in my post of the accuracy of the two religions, and I take Islam to be a corruption of the revelation of Christianity, a corruption which nevertheless still retains some good.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    The Muslim God is not the same as the Christian God.Heister Eggcart
    The "Muslim God" and the "Christian God" are just words (referents). They are obviously referents to the same entity, for there is One God only, there's not 50 Gods for that matter. Two different people may call me by a different name (my name as it corresponds to their language), and even describe me differently, it doesn't follow at all that I'm two different persons. So quit playing around.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    Every theist is an atheist seeing as belief in one God rules out belief in all others. That is, the Christian is atheistic with regard to Allah, and vice versa.Heister Eggcart
    :s Allah is meant to denote the same God. Palestinian Christians for example, use God and Allah interchangeably. It doesn't matter if you say God, or Babbsnada, or whatever - it's like using different languages to denote the same underlying person.

    The sun failing to rise tomorrow is not a logical proposition, dipshittus.Heister Eggcart
    Who talked about logical propositions Mr. Smartasinus? :-}
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    offensive insinuation that I don't know what I'm talking aboutSapientia
    Well, granted that you're a guy who used to think the Gospels were written hundreds of years after Christ, then I think in all likelihood you don't know what you're talking about :P ;)

    The statement that atheists merely have disbelief proves my statement that atheists do not have any of their own structure, it is only disbelief of someone else's structure.Lone Wolf

    No, it does not. You're confusing atheism and atheists. Atheists are mostly normal guys and gals who have the normal structure and beliefs that normal people normally have. Atheism, on the other hand, by that definition, is indeed a negative position about theism. It's about destruction rather than construction.Sapientia
    lol - seems like you deny that atheists merely reject someone else's structure at first, and then you affirm that it is indeed the case by saying it's about destruction rather than construction. Clearly to think that atheists are "normal" guys and girls is just a red herring, as I don't suppose LW meant that atheists don't have any kind of structure at all, but rather that in-so-far as they are atheists (and nothing else), they represent only a rejection, without any constructive affirmation.

    As I explained before, an atheist could go only as far as claiming that there isn't good enough reason to believe that there's a god without actually denying that there's a god.Sapientia
    How would we distinguish this person from an agnostic? Would he have different beliefs than an agnostic?

    Atheism rejects theism, it doesn't necessarily deny the possibility of there being, or not being, a God(s).Heister Eggcart
    What do you mean possibility? That weird kind of logical possibility that the sun will not rise tomorrow? :D
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    Dostoevsky (who was 50 percent atheist)Beebert
    No Dostoevsky was zero percent atheist. Here was a man who died with the Bible in his lap... Although neither was he an exemplary Christian in his life, to be fair. But he did seek to be a Christian.

    William BlakeBeebert
    I don't think Blake is a Christian for that matter.

    Especially since the depth of the missunderstood Nietzsche and his thought so far surpasses that of most of the greatest Christian thinkers that it is almost laughable.Beebert
    :s Compared to Aquinas for example, Nietzsche is just a confused man.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    Capitalism does lead to an increase in human rights, which is something the left does not generally want to accept. In fact, they incorrectly argue the opposite.Hanover
    I don't see a link with human rights here at all.

    Your preoccupation with the gender dysphoric and to those with sexual appetites and norms varying from your own is odd and diverts otherwise meaningful conversations.Hanover
    If capitalism leads to the production and sale of "goods" which are harmful, then I absolutely don't think that's good and admirable. Do you?

    It just means you're dysphoric.Hanover
    It seems you're quite passionate about using this queer word, now could you actually get to the point where you explain what does not seeing myself as a consumer have to do with being dysphoric, which I'm probably not.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    Then I return to my original point! They decay into something other than capitalism.Thorongil
    How do you define capitalism? If you define capitalism as free trade, then free trade is an advantage to those who are already powerful, so long as they know how to play their cards right. They will set the terms of how things will be done. Markets don't exist, people do.

    A large supermarket doesn't want to accept my product (the small producer). I have no access to distribution, whereas my competitors do. Through their power, they set the terms, and some people cannot meet those terms anymore.

    The only way to overthrow a monopoly is by creating another monopoly in a smaller pond this time :P Or the old-fashioned legal way.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    but capitalism would prevent them from being so.Thorongil
    Absolutely not. It's like at a Poker table. When I end up holding, say 70% of the entire tables wealth, then the others cannot compete anymore, even if they're much better players than I am (I can bully them). Profits in the short-term (in a perfectly competitive market) will always tend to be transformed into a monopolistic advantage - thus perfectly competitive markets naturally decay.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    In part, yes.Thorongil
    Right, so let's do some economics then.

    What is this? This is the long-term graph illustrating the average total cost (ATC), average revenue (AR), marginal cost (MC), and marginal revenue (MR) for a firm operating in a PERFECTLY COMPETITIVE (FREE) MARKET.
    Perfect-competition-efficiency.png
    Do you see how at the point of equilibrium profit (AR-ATC) is 0? (and not only that but if he's not operating at Pareto Optimality he will actually be LOSING money - ATC > AR)

    This is the same graph for a MONOPOLY:
    Super-normal-profits.png
    Seems like a capitalist will hate the free market, and love the monopoly. Thank God that the perfectly competitive market doesn't actually exist.

    If you want an interesting read on this (and quite philosophical too), Peter Thiel's book, Zero To One is good. He is a philosophy graduate actually ;)
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    Because capitalism supports free markets and to have a monopoly is to prohibit others from entering the market.Thorongil
    Is the goal of the capitalist to maximise profits?
  • Your Favourite Philosophical Books
    I disagree with that part about having to read a majority of a work before considering it significant. What do you think my motive is for continuing to read about Marx and Marxism? Obviously the significance of what I've read has struck me. Really, you'd have to be more of an authority on Marx than the author of the book I referred to in order make that kind of judgement about what I've been reading, and I don't think that you are. The book seeks to elucidate what was written, and quotes it frequently. I'm confident that it has already improved my understanding, and that continued reading will give me the understanding that I seek. Then I could move on to the next stage, and perhaps ultimately read the book itself.Sapientia
    I follow. It's not about whether I'm more of an expert than that guy, this goes deeper. I don't trust experts, most of the experts I've met are wrong very often. I have a deep distrust of experts, even of doctors for example. The other issue I've noticed is that with philosophy sometimes when I read a secondary text by a so-called expert after reading the original, sometimes I feel it has absolutely nothing to do with what I've originally read :s
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    But they often do so through monopoly and government subsidy. No one is saying they're communists, but they're certainly not capitalists.Thorongil
    Why is monopoly anti-capitalist? Every business seeks a monopoly of one kind or another.
  • Is monogamy morally bad?
    I suspect Sartre would want to repudiate his FATHER.unenlightened
    >:O
  • Is monogamy morally bad?
    and seems to be at least a major strand of thinking critical of the institution of the family.unenlightened
    Okay, but take Kierkegaard that FATHER of existentialism. He was very conservative with regards to the family, although he never had a family himself. I wouldn't say there's something about existentialism that implies it will be critical of the family...
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    Think about it. If some crazy guy wants X, then I'd be a fool not to provide it, because I'd be dropping the opportunity to make money. That's why consumerism naturally and inevitably leads to leftism (transexual bathrooms, transexual surgeries, etc. etc.).

    And for what it's worth, I absolutely don't see myself as a consumer.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    As a competitor you're unhappy, but since we're a consumer driven society, we care only about cheaper products, which is exactly what we getHanover
    Yes exactly, I think that's a problem that we're a consumer driven society. It encourages desires to grow, expand and multiply among the people, which only leads to more unhappiness.
  • Existence is not a predicate
    A proof is a proof.Thorongil
    What's a proof then? A proof to me is undeniable evidence that something is the case. Such cannot be given in the case of God.

    I can prove the Theorem of Pythagoras within a certain system undeniably. But I cannot undeniably prove the existence of God.
  • Your Favourite Philosophical Books
    Your opinion isn't worth that much to me. It's not a competition, and I don't need to prove myself to you or to anyone. Think what you want. I know what I know.Sapientia
    Well yes, maybe I was too harsh above, excuse me. The last sentence was meant to be a joke, but it didn't come out like that, came more like I was trying to make fun of you unfortunately. What I meant is that you shouldn't consider a work to be significant until you've actually read at least a majority of it. Reading about a work, instead of actually the work, can give you a false idea of what it is. And I really mean a false idea. Like I can't believe the stupid stuff I find about, say, even Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation. If I open up Wikipedia, or even the Stanford page, it's full of stuff I wouldn't consider very accurate.
  • Your Favourite Philosophical Books
    I've never read the Bible either, yet funnily enough I know quite a bit about it.Sapientia
    :-}

    Yep. Regardless of Michael's attempted insinuation, the fact that I haven't read a few books of the Old Testament is not comparable with your situation with Karl Marx's work. At least I've read most of the Bible, you haven't read even 20% of Das Kapital.

    Now I do question whether you actually know quite a bit about the Bible, or you THINK you know. Last time we talked you were telling me that the Bible was written many hundreds of years after the time of Jesus >:O
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    In short, what you don't like are those companies who do distasteful things, which has nothing to do with their corporate status and nothing to do with how many competitors it might have.Hanover
    No, actually that's not true. I despise large corporations (>$10 billion revenue) because of the unfair financial strength that they wield. The rest of us cannot compete with them, because we don't have the financial strength to bully people, the way they do. And no law can prevent brute strength, we already know that.
  • Existence is not a predicate
    Philosophy and forums?jorndoe
    That's nothing but an argument from authority. I asked you to use your head and give me an actual reason. Philosophers of the past may have thought it is important to debate whether existence is a property or not (because they were interested in the ontological argument) but maybe they were bothering to address unimportant and sterile matters to begin with (and later philosophers like Russell merely picked up on such sterility without questioning it). Maybe they were asking the wrong questions, and discussing dead ends. So just because philosophers have thought it important to discuss it, doesn't mean it really is important. So again, why is it important? Why should I care about resolving this issue? How will it change anything?
  • Existence is not a predicate
    For one thing, classical theism is in jeopardy. To claim that God can be proven or believed to exist, despite not knowing his essence, becomes a nonsensical distinction if existence isn't a predicate.Thorongil
    The whole conundrum seems a bit nonsensical to me. Nothing can be "proven" to exist. You can't even "prove" other minds exist. Classical theism does not claim to "prove" God in the sense of showing that it is irrational and illogical not to believe in God. Rather classical theism tries to give a defence of the faith which means to give very compelling reasons for believing in God, not a deductive and bullet proof argument. The premises of Aquinas' arguments can be denied for example. They are certainly sensible propositions that many people would be inclined to acknowledge, but one can still do the mental gymnastics required to deny them.
  • Is monogamy morally bad?
    Existentialism is the philosophy behind this, but one can also find precursors in Russell, Aldous Huxley and the like.unenlightened
    Why do you say existentialism is the philosophy behind the moral attacks on the family?
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    And North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic. :-}Thorongil
    >:O Certainly, but I don't quite believe it's the same thing. Corporate behemoths do actually control the allocation and distribution of large amounts of capital in order to generate new production, so they are capitalists in that sense, they're certainly not communists.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    Which is what it is.Thorongil
    Maybe, although corporate behemoths identify themselves as capitalists ;)
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    You seem to describe corporatism, not capitalism.Thorongil
    Hmmm I will agree, because I think you're using capitalism to mean what capitalism used to be.
  • Your Favourite Philosophical Books
    It thoroughly absorbed my attention the first time I read it, and I found the main character's exasperated protestations and observations conducive to my mood and aligning well with my general outlook on the world.Thorongil
    True enough but it was kind of silly at least to me. Meursault always seemed to me to be unable for some strange reason to feel compassion (for example for his dying mother) or empathy towards any of the others. Not only this, but he either did not understand the social games people were playing, or if he did, then he did not use them at all to save his own skin (I've never been quite able to decide between the two). Although he did have some "ability", the ability he had was simple passivity and going with the flow of whatever happened. Which did work in some cases - with Marie, with his friends including Raymond, etc.
  • Bushmen Philosophy
    I find that the sort of work one does is more important than whether one works. The Bushmen are likely satisfied because they don't perceive their work to be drudgery. It's probably harder to be clinically depressed living in their society than for drones ensconced in cubicles in New York or Tokyo.Thorongil
    Word.

    The challenge though is to escape the drudgery of capitalism, and you cannot do that by working for the behemoths of the economy (corporations). If someone were to call me and appoint me CEO of Microsoft, I would probably refuse for the simple reason that the work would be too much hassle, and I'd be forced to interact with some people in ways and manners that I wouldn't approve of, not to mention that the board of directors would rule over me with an iron fist, pretty much dictating what I do with my time.

    But unfortunately, people do a lot of BS for social status. They are willing to undertake so much labour, and so much struggle, they will even sacrifice their own families, their own health, their own peace of mind, their own sleep - all for a little bit of ribbon, which will be forgotten as fast as it was given. At least if at the end of their struggle they attained the greatness that they hoped for! At least if someone who acted in this manner finished by becoming a colossus to be remembered for all of history - to have all men sing their praises! But this is not how they finish - they finish forgotten by all, for who remembers the bravest soldier who fought in Napoleon's army? :s

    A life of leisure and little work is to be preferred over being a drone and a slave. Freedom is more important than mere money.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    I don't get it. Why would a man lying on his death bed desire God when God, if it exists, created the circumstances of him being on his death bed in the first place as part of God's plan? This is what believers do - they try to separate God from the way things are, as if God can save them from the universe yet God created the universe and our limited power in it. When we starkly feel our lack of power in the face of natural events, why turn to the one being that created those circumstances in the firstHarry Hindu
    Man doesn't deserve anything, so why would he turn away? God doesn't HAVE TO give him what he wants. You're talking as if the man in question believes he deserves something from God. But prayer would be just speaking one's heart to God, for God is one's Creator.
  • Man's Weakness As Argument For God
    They simply need power - which can come from different sources, like science discovering ways in which to prolong your life and improve your health.Harry Hindu
    Regardless of what science discovers, it's not enough. We'll always be at the mercy of things that are outside of our control.
  • Is monogamy morally bad?
    Monogamy may be honored more often in the breach than in strict adherence, but that isn't what you were asking about.Bitter Crank
    I'm not sure about that, it seems that the situation is about 50-50 for married people, with the balance leaning in favour of faithful monogamy being honored for married people. If you look at the stats here, 41% of married couples have had either one or both partners commit infidelity at least once (and infidelity includes even emotional infidelity, not only actually having sex). Also I imagine we often hear about the marriages where infidelity occurs, but not the ones where it doesn't, so there is some bias there too. Divorce rate however is above 50% for many developed places, but not all divorces occur because of infidelity.

    But monogamy is indeed honored more in the breach than in adherence for non-married people unfortunately. I think this over time will translate in more breaches during marriage as well. But it depends on the people. If you're a person who lives a celibate lifestyle while you're single and don't fornicate, then why would you cheat on your partner? :s It would be so silly, since clearly you've disciplined yourself to live without any sex, so why would you suddenly be interested to cheat when you do get to have some sex with your husband/wife?

    My hypothesis is that promiscuity and fornication before marriage is directly correlated with infidelity during marriage.