Comments

  • Parmenides, general discussion
    It's hard to address Parmenidesfrank

    I read Parmenidies' important surviving fragment that is often called 'On Nature'.

    Parmenides is a generous monist in that he allows the Unity to have multiplicity when it need not; however, I easily note that the One cannot be still or not anything would have happened.

    He banishes 'Nothing' as what cannot even be meant; thus the mandatory existent as the One again easily ensues, which can't be denied, plus the Fundamental Arts dictate that the One cannot have parts, thus it having to be continuous (no spacers of 'Nothing' allowed in it, anyway).

    Not able to be still, the One is ever energetic; the elementary particles and whatnot can only be as disturbances/excitations/rearrangements of it, for the One is all there is as the only real and lasting thing. It must ever remain as itself and so it can't make anything different than itself. All else as the events of multiplicity are temporary, even our entire universe. The One persists before, after, and during our universe, for it is Permanent. Thus, there is no Big Bang from 'Nothing'.

    The One as partlesss needs be simplest, which we also know because it forms only tiny, simple elementaries at first. Because all the elementaries of a type are identical, we even further know that there has to a One as the structure beneath them responsible for their uniformity. For some reason, there is less and less stability on upwards of the elementaries, although even the elementaries don't last forever but can still be very long events.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    Of course, all inferences, scientific or philosophical, are uncertain.Gnomon

    So, we uncertainly infer by "fact and reason" that 'The Mind' just happens to be sitting around as First, as not at all physical but now having hyperphysical magic makes a mediocre physical universe by being able to figure, plan, and implement, although having no parts to engage in its thinking and writing of the code, being singular, with no regress to how it became as a creative system, not at all partless, which gets ignored as begging the question, a Mind that steered evolution into making variant viruses and 50-80 million species of insects on a planet whose life suffers near extinctions from asteroids, volcanoes, wars, ice ages, global warmings, nuclear winters, and more, not to mention a long barbaric history and a trend for the dumb to produce many more offspring than the smart, and so forth as no better than nature could have done by itself and, coincidently, exactly the same as nature could. This is much better than even the tiniest step toward anything more decent and liveable.

    Hail to the Imperfect Mind that made a universe that will fall apart. No wonder a lot of people have a sit-com mentality; they are mirrors of the Mind who thought that imperfect programming could fly.

    I learned as a programmer at IBM that poor programs will often abort, but it's not any great shakes to expect that. Coder, you're fired!

    Did it use a quantum computer? No, for it is non physical, plus that came out way later.

    No more need for investigation; the Blundering Great Programmer wrote how all should go—and that is the Theory of Everything in a nutshell and a nut head. Global warming is now heading toward 2.7 degrees… The Third World War looms. Goodbye, cruel world!

    So, how did 'The Mind' and its information, out of thin air, such as it is, not the best, get programmed? Or do we just have to explain an event such as our universe, but not anything much wider in scope as proposed by the template that Larger ever makes the lesser, and so forth? Let us only use the template once and then instantly throw out its rule.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    But, sadly, no hope for salvation from an imperfect creation.Gnomon

    It fails. Our universe is not perfect, nor it is completely mathematically elegant, for there are superfluous entities in it, along with a lot of waste. Protons and neutrons require only up and down quarks, and not the other four quarks.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    That may be true of empirical Science. But not of theoretical Philosophy. Yet, the best they could come up with is a mysterious hypothetical First Cause that at least terminates the regression of Evolution at a Question Mark (Singularity ; God ; Logos, ?) instead of a never-ending tower-of-turtles ellipsis (multiverse ; many worlds) . . . . .Gnomon

    The 'theoretical' Philosophy has no theory in concluding "deemed to be God" because 'deeming' doesn't make 'God'. They may further think they can eliminate their turtle regress of higher always leading to lower by taking the higher answer all the way to infinite or to the mostest Mind, this leaving no room for another Higher Mind to account for the Perfect Mind that has to thus remain unaccounted for as The First Uncaused Cause. Sagan and Okkam would say to skip this ultimate mystery level that dwarfs evolution's now infinitesimal level in terms of having to be explained. Begging the question, as ever, doesn't answer but just makes for a larger question, in this case it becoming the largest question.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    But, the metaphysical Ideal Realm may not be bound by the physical rules of thermodynamics. Scientists have long been perplexed by the existence of "Natural Laws" in a dynamic world scrambled by fundamental Randomness. For Plato's Forms, actual complexity is not "just sitting around already complete". Instead, a Metaphysical Form is merely the Potential Design for a future thing, that must then be Actualized, sometimes by a prolonged complex process of evolution, into a Physical Thing.Gnomon

    One cannot even hope to have an 'explanation' that itself would need all the more explanation, to the nth degree, even, plus as a regress.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    BEING (being qua being) would not "have" a mind or brain, but would be The Mind, in the sense of containing & processing all of the information necessary to create a space-time world from scratch (i.e. physical world from meta-physical design -- an idea & a plan).Gnomon

    Still can't have 'The Mind' as First and Fundamental even as a Potential that thinks as much as an Actual; complexity can't be just sitting around already complete.

    Besides, the universe is full of intelligent design, and forms and proceeds just like the natural would: Deuterium bottleneck, 98% hydrogen gas tuned, long Cosmic evolution time, long biological evolution time, species going extinct, humans nearly too, a big asteroid opening up space for mammals to evolve into humans…

    Biological evolution doesn't swing the necessity toward 'God'; it is a design without a designer, for the platforms from which change can lead a way forward are always already stable as a fallback as it roughs, tumbles, and stumbles through slow accumulation onto millions of creature species.

    There is no effective supernatural, hyperphysical, distinct nonphysical realm that can't speak the physical talk; no magic, just the usual pipe dreams of a largest making for the smaller—we note the opposite as the actual progression.

    The temporary universe decays and ends as the failure that its beginning ultimately meant: zip. It probably fades because there can be no infinite precision, no lasting ultimate information put in, and no way to foresee the n-body problem to create something lasting. All its mutable complex glories and triumphs die, but the Simple remains.

    Hail to the transient, those grand complexities to which the Simple pales in comparison!


    The Permanent and Its Temporaries
    &
    Unity in Multiplicity
    &
    The One and the Many
    &
    Change and the Changeless
    &
    Especially
    The Constant Demise of the Mutables


    (Inspired by Shelley and his style, and altering a few verses)

    Weep for the temporaries; they all fade,
    Those transient bubbles blown and burst
    Through their brief lives, of the Permanent made.
    Oh, weep for the ephemeral dispersed,
    Sad hours all, throughout the months and years,
    To mourn their steady loss with flowing tears;
    Teach them o’er the morrows thine own sorrow
    For the yesterdays they could only borrow
    From the One’s everlasting simplicity.
    Oh, weep for the unsteady, born to flee!

    For now, their light echoes and lights the path
    Continued that they added to, onto more
    Evanescences walking Time’s footpath,
    Til Past has been forgotten by Future.
    Oh, limited Mother, their tales best
    Thine by far e’en in their impermanence,
    But Thou can’t save them from their final rest,
    For they are chained to time’s changing tense.
    Thou cannot rekindle their faded breath,
    Those melodies that hid coming death.
    Like the flowers that mock the corpse beneath,
    The Enduring cloaks their extinguished wreath.

    With veiled eyes, newer moments weep despair,
    While spreading forth their own emergences;
    Dream not that the Eternal Deep can their air
    Restore, for the makeshift must progress, spent.
    The universe has to continue its race,
    Unwinding, like a spring, at time’s fixed pace,
    In which star-generations are born and perish,
    Giving their lives for all we can cherish.
    Energy’s Hunger stalks all creatures made,
    Lying ever just ‘round the corner in the shade.

    Death takes both humans and the beetle as one,
    After their lives are spent from rolling some dung.
    Living clouds wane, having outwept their rain;
    The pale inconstants must e’er pass their reign.
    Like mist’s pageantry on an autumnal night,
    As a slowing pomp, all events made light
    Decay: Desires, Adorations, Destinies,
    Glooms, Splendours, Sighs, Hopes, Fears, and Phantasies.
    Pleasure hails, blinded by tears and sorrow:
    “You took from Death all that Life could borrow.”

    Like our shades dance the walls of Plato’s cave,
    We’re 3D shadows of 4D’s enclave…
    It’s like a lamp lights up a paper shade—
    We are as figures thereupon portrayed.
    We are magic lanterns shining here; 
    Our spirits are the lights in there.
    We’re the One’s Candled Magic Shadow-Show,
    In which we Phantom Figures come and go.
    Come, light your lantern and mine with good cheer;
    We’re magic lamps; our spirits dance in here.

    We are phenomena’s projected face,
    Well-painted from noumena’s unseen base.
    From what bright star came the gleam in your eyes? 
    From what distant sun came your smile, light-wise?
    Our minds and senses interpret and dispense
    The base reality into the colors and sensations
    Of the phenomenal world from the noumenal;
    We may become either rainbows or ugly stains!
    Our beginnings and ends are of nowhere,
    So, let’s radiate, since for now we’re here!

    Ending by Shelley himself:

    The One remains, the many change and pass;
    Heaven’s light forever shines, Earth’s shadows fly;
    Life, like a dome of many-colour’d glass,
    Stains the white radiance of Eternity,
    Until Death tramples it to fragments.—Die,
    If thou wouldst be with that which thou dost seek!
    Follow where all is fled!—Rome’s azure sky,
    Flowers, ruins, statues, music, words, are weak
    The glory they transfuse with fitting truth to speak.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    I agree. That's why I define my personal First Cause simply as BEING : essential existence.Gnomon

    The 'Essential Existent' is a good label for what has to be. I've also called it the External Existent' or 'G.O.D'—the Ground of Determination.


    Aquinas defined his God as the Necessary Being, without whom nothing (no beings) would exist. It's the "only thing" that exists absolutely.Gnomon

    Aquinas makes an unwarranted leap here to a Being having Mind because he wants 'God'.


    So simple unitary existence must be the beginning point of all theories of how & why the space-time world exists.Gnomon

    That's better; I hope Aquinas is listening. It's not only simple as a necessity for its forming of the lightweight elementaries but also because its needs to be partless and continuous to be Absolute as Fundamental. It would not be able to think, plan, and create via a System of Mind as the ultimate simplicity; however, so it is that the lesser leads to the greater, not as Aquinas' view that is the reverse and would lead to an infinite regress of greaters making lessers.


    Some postulate that space-time/matter-energy is eternal, but the Big Bang cosmology --- including the Big Freeze finale --- put a damper on such speculations. And physical Nature has never been shown to create something from nothing.Gnomon

    The whole darn universe is temporary. Stability decreases on upward and only photons remain at the end, for they don't decay by themselves.


    the "hard problem" is to determine what that hypothetical "permanent thing" was, in a more definitive sense. For my money though, the eternally un-changing Ideality answers make more sense, than anything resembling our temporal and ever-changing impermanent Reality.Gnomon

    'Is', not 'was'. It's enough to know that it's the simplest possible, it being the closest to Null that could be. It's extremely far from Full, for as Full it could not rearrange.


    G*D : An ambiguous spelling of the common name for a supernatural deity. The Enformationism thesis is based upon an unprovable axiom that our world is an idea in the mind of G*D.Gnomon

    G*D—God Damn! To boldly jump to it having Mind is a leap much more than a tiny quantum jump.

    As for there just being a plain old Big Bang, that would have been any old unbalanced useless happening. Inflation is likely needed just before the Bang to make a universe balanced as well as Big to have a chance; however, since the Essential Existence is always around there are a heck of a lot of chances.

    Minds and their great accomplishments only come about later on, all their temporary glories doomed.
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    Hence, we are forced to conclude that something must have always existed, even if its not a thing in our local Reality. In that manner, we can always extend the tower-of-turtles one step further back closer to infinity.Gnomon

    1. This Permanent Thing would be local everywhere, as it is before and after our universe and during. Further, as it's the only thing, its rearrangements are it too; even we are it.

    2. The elementaries formed of its initial arrangements are all identical within their types, which again indicates formation, plus it doesn't matter all that much if and when they form and which one gets used to make a composite since any one of them can get used and some will always be around.

    The elementaries can be long lasting events and are near-things since they are identical to themselves over a long time, but presumably they are temporary.

    From here on up to simple atoms to stars to more atoms to molecules, etc., all seems to become more and more temporary.

    3. The elementaries are tiny lightweights, which shows that what formed them is also lightweight.

    4. Thus, the Permanent is simple.

    5.?
  • Bannings
    He seemed to be a nice fellow. I doubt he'd want to join again out of self respect.Shawn

    He might, for he liked it here and was making his way around; he didn't know about the Lounge and its threads, so he wasn't Marco or anyone who had been here many times.
  • Bannings
    I banned him for saying something to signal he was Marco.fdrake

    Except that he was great! Can you get him back or send me his email?
  • Can theory of nothing challenge God?
    The physicists' references are to the 'vacuum', whose zero-point rest energy is not zero. This Permanent thing is the source of all; 'god' is not required.
  • Philosphical Poems
    I just checked under "Bannings", and saw nothing. Where did you hear this?Michael Zwingli

    The Banning thread closed for comments a few months ago.

    Saw it here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/614876

    It's shocking; he was great!
  • Philosphical Poems
    When golden Autumn, wreathed in riped’d corn,
    From purple clusters prest the foamy wine,
    Thy genius did his sallow brows adorn,
    And made the beauties of the season thine.
    Michael Zwingli

    For the whole year:

    austin_s_art_interior_for_kindle-136.jpg

    For the romantic poets (and for Graveltty, whose banning I don't understand, and for all of us temporaries):

    The Permanent and Its Temporaries
    &
    Unity in Multiplicity
    &
    The One and the Many
    &
    Change and the Changeless
    &
    Especially
    The Constant Demise of the Mutables

    (Inspired by Shelley and his style, using few verses)

    Weep for the temporaries; they all fade,
    Those transient bubbles blown and burst
    Through their brief lives, of the Permanent made.
    Oh, weep for the ephemeral dispersed,
    Sad hours all, throughout the months and years,
    To mourn their steady loss with flowing tears;
    Teach them o’er the morrows thine own sorrow
    For the yesterdays they could only borrow
    From the One’s everlasting simplicity.
    Oh, weep for the unsteady, born to flee!

    For now, their light echoes and lights the path
    Continued that they added to, onto more
    Evanescences walking Time’s footpath,
    Til Past has been forgotten by Future.
    Oh, limited Mother, their tales best
    Thine by far e’en in their impermanence,
    But Thou can’t save them from their final rest,
    For they are chained to time’s changing tense.
    Thou cannot rekindle their faded breath,
    Those melodies that hid coming death.
    Like the flowers that mock the corpse beneath,
    The Enduring cloaks their extinguished wreath.

    With veiled eyes, newer moments weep despair,
    While spreading forth their own emergences;
    Dream not that the Eternal Deep can their air
    Restore, for the makeshift must progress, spent.
    The universe has to continue its race,
    Unwinding, like a spring, at time’s fixed pace,
    In which star-generations are born and perish,
    Giving their lives for all we can cherish.
    Energy’s Hunger stalks all creatures made,
    Lying ever just ‘round the corner in the shade.

    Death takes both humans and the beetle as one,
    After their lives are spent from rolling some dung.
    Living clouds wane, having outwept their rain;
    The pale inconstants must e’er pass their reign.
    Like mist’s pageantry on an autumnal night,
    As a slowing pomp, all events made light
    Decay: Desires, Adorations, Destinies,
    Glooms, Splendours, Sighs, Hopes, Fears, and Phantasies.
    Pleasure hails, blinded by tears and sorrow:
    “You took from Death all that Life could borrow.”

    Like our shades dance the walls of Plato’s cave,
    We’re 3D shadows of 4D’s enclave…
    It’s like a lamp lights up a paper shade—
    We are as figures thereupon portrayed.
    We are magic lanterns shining here; 
    Our spirits are the lights in there.
    We’re the One’s Candled Magic Shadow-Show,
    In which we Phantom Figures come and go.
    Come, light your lantern and mine with good cheer;
    We’re magic lamps; our spirits dance in here.

    We are phenomena’s projected face,
    Well-painted from noumena’s unseen base.
    From what bright star came the gleam in your eyes? 
    From what distant sun came your smile, light-wise?
    Our minds and senses interpret and dispense
    The base reality into the colors and sensations
    Of the phenomenal world from the noumenal;
    We may become either rainbows or ugly stains!
    Our beginnings and ends are of nowhere,
    So, let’s radiate, since for now we’re here!

    Ending by Shelley himself:

    The One remains, the many change and pass;
    Heaven’s light forever shines, Earth’s shadows fly;
    Life, like a dome of many-colour’d glass,
    Stains the white radiance of Eternity,
    Until Death tramples it to fragments.—Die,
    If thou wouldst be with that which thou dost seek!
    Follow where all is fled!—Rome’s azure sky,
    Flowers, ruins, statues, music, words, are weak
    The glory they transfuse with fitting truth to speak.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    I'm suggesting to use reason rather than faith(or lack of it) to weight risks of 2 choices where each choice has equal chance of probability.SpaceDweller

    The positions don't seem to be equiprobable. 'God' is not even close to having been established; Genesis in being wrong shows divine inspiration to be lacking; a composite, such as Mind or a proton cannot be First and fundamental, for its parts would have to be more so; the universe is full of unintelligent design and its progression is seen to be purely physical, from the simple to the more complex.
  • What is Nirvana
    How it is that Rovelli has quantum fields as exhausting reality as being relational?

    I suppose it is enough the Permanent can only form temporaries.
  • Philosphical Poems
    Thomas Chatterton,Michael Zwingli

    He died at 17 by poison. Keats at 25; Shelley at 29, leaving the great 'Triumph of Life' unfinished; Byron at 35, and more.
  • What is Nirvana
    What is Nirvana?

    In his new book, ‘Helgoland…’, about Quantum Theory, Carlo Rovelli notes that All is Relational, that no entity exists independently of anything else, so that there are no intrinsic properties at all, but only features in relation to something else, which is essentially what Nagarjuna means by ‘emptiness’ in his Buddhism. Further note that the universe and all that comes and goes in it is temporary.


    Relationism and Buddhism
    (Outline from reading Rovelli)

    Quantum fields form and exhaust reality,
    As partless, continuous—there’s no Space!
    Reality maintains itself in place
    As the net of objects interacting.

    Copernicus’ revolution’s complete;
    External entities aren’t required
    To hold the universe; God’s not needed,
    Nor any background; there is no Outside.

    Nor is there the ‘now’ all over the place.
    GR’s relational nature extends
    To Time as well—the ‘flow’ of time is not
    An ultimate aspect of reality.

    All is Relational: no entity
    Exists independently of anything;
    There are no intrinsic properties,
    Just features in relation to what’s else.

    Interactions and events (not things) are
    Quantum entangled with such others else;
    Impermanence pertains all the way through—
    What Nagarjuna means by Emptiness.

    There are no fundamental substances,
    No permanences, no bird’s-eye view
    Of All, no Foundation to Everything,
    Plus no infinite regress ne’er completed.

    The fields are not from anything—causeless!
    Or ‘not from anything’ is of lawless
    ‘Nothing’, which can’t ever form to remain.
    There is no reason, then, to existence.

    Hope’s Necessary ‘God’ vanishes!
    This realization of Impermanence,
    No Absolutes, and Emptiness,
    As all temporary, is Nirvana.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    RIP Notion of 'God'; It was never going to wash that the lesser had to be created by the greater, and so forth, ad infinitum…PoeticUniverse

    The Golden Template employed above had to be thrown out through the stain-glass window after its one and only attempted usage for showing 'God'.

    austin_s_art_interior_for_kindle-83.jpg

    The Permanent’s the one and only thing,
    As the ‘vacuum’, whose zero-point energy
    Isn’t zero, its point values tugging
    On each other and thus being quantum fields.

    We decompose it into harmonic
    Oscillators though a Fourier-transform,
    Each as a quantum harmonic oscillator
    Whose energy comes in quantized units.

    The lowest energy state is not zero.
    When we sum for all possible values
    We get an infinite result.

    When a theory is renormalizable,
    There’s a mathematically sensible process
    To discard the unwanted infinities
    But still account for finite differences,

    Which are responsible for observables;
    We may sum energies to some finite cutoff value,
    And use it to compute observable values;
    In the limit of the cutoff going back to infinity,
    The physical prediction doesn’t change.
  • Malus Scientia
    The Apple’s Return

    God, alone in His Power, had no fun,
    So He made Sapiens out of His One,
    Our image reflecting His Love’s Knowing,
    As His mirror of Divine Perfection.

    ‘God’s image reflects the mottled colors
    Painted by human artists upon the air
    Where the wormed apple was before the fall
    That rotted away truth’s tree of knowledge.

    Eden’s fresh market carried everything;
    The shiny red apples called from the Tree,
    “Touch me, take me, eat me”, and soon trouble
    Was at hand, although it was crispy, sweet.

    Shirking responsibility, The Blamer
    Cited humans as the culprits of his err,
    And cast them out of Eden, to this day—
    This evil being God’s own Original Sin.

    ‘Coerced’ is to follow God’s will—or burn,
    Thus feeding the Fires of Hell in turn,
    But humans had local laws long before
    Moses brought down the Ten of lore.

    Eden’s sinful Apple, causing our shit,
    Made for harsh apple cider, but when it
    Was heated with sulfurous brimstone it
    Soon turned smooth, the Hell taken out of it!

    Bless your soul with tongues of fire; Holy Spirit burn;
    Leave no trace of man’s desire; Holy Spirit turn.
    Oh, man, why detest thy constitution;
    Doth thou think Nature has a lot to learn?

    So Nature got it wrong, the pious say,
    In man’s constitution, erring its essay,
    Granting so many ways to go astray.
    Well, then, Who, do they say, penned this world’s play?

    ‘God’, Divine Human, and Spirit, to boot,
    All structured on wishes—what a hoot!
    Angels added, too, and Devils haunting.
    All as supposed, so, their doings are moot.

    ‘God’ changed His mind, so it would work better,
    From err of His deluge wet and wetter,
    Ne’er to kill again by water His kin;
    Jesus gave Original Sin’s Redemption.

    I found the Garden in the Amazon’s heart,
    Wherein lie massive fields of Lady’s Slippers
    And all of the rare flowers of Paradise…
    And there I put the apple back on the tree.
  • Philosphical Poems
    Not much going on here since the thread got moved to the lounge…

    What are angels, demons and spirit guides?

    They are Halloween!

    For Halloween Season

    She frowns, “Lo, the woods are growing dense, filling with mist and shadowed goods.”

    “What’s that fuss, behind us?”

    “An old witch has just sprung up, to our rear, she being the specter of fear, and of all that is worrisome here.”

    The witch asks, “What is your deepest fear?

    We don’t answer.

    The witch continues, “Do I ask of the air? Hell, death? Which shall it be? How about Heaven? Is that it? All three?”

    “I banish you,” I say, “for death is merely the natural end of all living things of nature’s blend. What has no death has no life principle! My turn to live would never have come about, to ripple, if it were not for the deaths before, of people. As for Heavens and Hells, those are what we create within ourselves, as we can turn our souls outside in, to create a Heaven or Hell from within. Hell surely arrives when we make our own difficulties, in life’s wake, when we our common sense forsake. However, I do have one fear that’s grown, although just one alone.”

    “What is that fear?, the witch pleads. “My hopes suddenly rise in pitch, but my form is ready to fade, for your anxiety unmade.”

    “My one and only fear besought is that of not living well, as ought! So, with that answer furnished, witch, you, the specter of fear must vanish, like the mist, cold, on the morning wind unrolled.”
    Reveal


    The Horrit Witch

    They take an overgrown side-path to the haunt of a known sorceress. The signs say ‘Enter All Who Welcome Death!’ but still they continue, for they need clues. The witch meets them at the outer gate and bids them to enter.

    They gallop to the entrance of the evil place but as they arrive they see her to be already inside, a trick, but enough to unnerve any squire who knows not of the use of doubles and twins. The abode is crawling with Tarantulas; it has the desired effect on Bogar and Hargrave. “Oh!” says Hargrave. “Woe!” says Bogar.

    “Do not believe all that you see,” whispers Percevale to the squires; “Merlyn has revealed many magic tricks to me.”

    “We seek Thorelf the Viking!” announces Hargrave.

    “Purchase the spear that bleeds, which you will never find.” reveals the witch. “It is but one link in a long chain that may strangle you or save you! And seek the land of ice and fire!—it is far to the north—there you may find Thorelf’s wake that will take you to him across the ocean desert of despair. And you, Percevale, you would have found love on a foreign soil—However, you will not survive to use the clues I have given you!”

    And with that admonition, all sink to their knees and thence to the floor, overtaken by the fumes coming from the witch’s pot. The fumes are not deadly, for the witch does not derive power from killing men, but only from controlling them.

    No, this witch rules by chemistry: the very air is drugged with gases. The price of information is sometimes dear, for she means to enslave them. The squires cry out as their heads fill with visions of demons and creatures so hellish as to defy description on this printed page. Logic and good sense are stilled, as terror reigns and begins to take over the squires’ souls.

    But, the King’s heart is tested and grown strong. Before reason escapes altogether, a calmness of thought occurs to Percevale: “if that which cannot happen, does indeed seem to be happening, then one must be experiencing a non-reality—a dream perhaps or something akin to it—”

    To test his theory Percevale closes his eyes. “Aha! The demons are still there.” They are but put in his mind, he realizes, and are hallucinations induced by potions, not really very different from night dreams.

    The Knight King arises calmly from the floor, ignores the visions, grabs the two squires, and exits the hovel, holding them firmly in the night’s embracing chill until their minds have cleared and their lungs are free of the witch’s potion.

    The witch’s slaves and legions are not allowed to follow, lest their minds be cleared as well. “Why is it,” thinks Percevale, “that those with second sight and such rare powers, those who could be so useful to the world, often fail to use their powers wisely. He turns and stands before the witch’s hovel and vows to someday find the power to return and destroy it!

    They ride through the night without sleeping, for their hearts are still beating quickly. The morning finally dawn on the squires and they see that nature is new and that the grass is now green. Renewal is at hand; nature is reinventing the world.



    The Rites & Wrongs of Spring

    The trio comes to a road that is blocked by the passing of a spring carnival. It is the annual “Rites of Spring Celebration”, doubly raucous this year because it also celebrates the recent victories of war. There are tumblers, troubadours, circus acts and the like, and it is well attended with drunken revelry.

    A vendor on Bogar’s right is selling sacred objects for unbelievably low prices and Bogar takes opportunity of the journey’s pause to investigate the bargains. His attention is first brought to a piece of the venerated wood of the true cross, brought here by the vendor himself after he had gone on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and secretly excavated the hill of the Holy Sepulcher at night whilst a cathedral was being built over it. Bogar parts with some valuable coins and buys a worthless piece of wood.

    He also purchases a nail from that same cross. It is still incrusted with Christ’s blood. He buys also a portion of the actual crown of thorns, a shredded part of the tablecloth used at the last supper, a bone from St. Peter’s arm, a piece of the manger, some drops of the Virgins own milk sealed forever in a glass vial, and a tin cup used by Joseph of Aramithea to catch the blood of Jesus on that first Good Friday.

    Having spent all of his riches, he is about to return when he spots a golden box with a crystal lid, containing a purple cushion on which lays a piece of rusted iron, triangular in shape with a long sharp point.

    “This,” said the vendor, “is the tip of the spear that pierced the side of the Saviour!”

    After much consultation with Hargrave, Bogar obtains a loan and makes the final purchase. The riding junk-pile returns and Percevale examines the haul with horror.

    “Throw all of this rattling junk away!” the King insists.

    “But most of this is from the true and holy cross, sire!”

    “Squires,” replies Percevale, “I’ve seen enough pieces of the true cross to construct twenty fine sailing sloops of war and still have enough wood left over to build a bridge over the Usk river. What is that cup? Good God, we’ve found the Grail again! Fling it to that beggar by the creek who is sipping water with his hands!”

    The squires quail at the King’s rage and let their treasures fall to the ground, but the King is laughing on the inside at the squires’ folly and soon they all break into hearty laughter. But the laughing stops abruptly as they all notice that the box containing the spear tip is now quite full of blood.

    “Keep the spear tip,” replies Percevale with haste, remembering the words of the first witch, “and attach it to a fine and sturdy stick, for the Crimson Spear has been returned to me when I need it most.”




    The Curse of the Death-Crone

    As Percevale approaches the witch’s land, he sees the shield and helmets of those who came and died before him. He clutches the Crimson Spear close and continues his approach. “Now, Bogar, you wait here and if I do not come out within two days, then come in after me.”

    Percevale feels the watch of gloom as he enters the territory of the witch. Knowing that he is being watched, he does not turn around to alert the watcher, but slides quickly and unbeknownst into the woods at the next turn. Taliesin glides noiselessly, silent and invisible in Percevale’s mind!

    Percevale peers in a window and sees a pitiful sight. The witch’s slaves are from the world of the deformed and misshapen—those who are most easily enslaved, plus a Giant. Next, plans are made and a good night’s sleep is taken.

    In the morning a huge menacing giant blocks Percevale’s path, but there is something very human and caring, yet guarded, in the giant’s eyes. To test this theory, Percevale aims an arrow at the Giant’s dog, and the Giant pleads with Percevale not to shoot it. Apparently the giant is too large to fully feel the effect of the witch’s controlling drug, and Percevale speaks to the giant softly: “You could easily escape this witch’s spell and be free!”

    The Giant replies: “You are correct; I stay only to protect my misshapen friends from further harm, and indeed I will help you kill the witch if you will but insure the safety of my friends!”

    “I am King of Britain and the safety of all my subjects concerns me. Just keep your bewitched friends in check while I do battle with the witch and soon you shall all be free or I’ll die trying.” Such sincere words were very well understood by the giant.

    Now Percevale faces the witch, but not alone, for Taliesin has joined with him in mind, and the bleeding spear is at hand.

    “’Tis the accursed Crimson Spear for Avalon!” she cries. “Take it from my sight, I can not bear to look!”

    But Percevale holds it all the more firmly as she tries to wrench it from his grasp with the powers of her mind. She fills his minds eye with evil sights of monsters, but ever still does he hold the red shaft; it is now bleeding profusely and its blood is pooling on the ground. For a day and a night, the battle of the minds continues, Percevale and Taliesin barely holding their own and growing evermore weary, and feeling at each instant that they cannot last another moment.

    Meanwhile, no potions are being dispensed to the enslaved; they drink but the purest of water and so they are slowly regaining control over their lives. Towards morning, the battle draws to its climax as Avalon’s grandson is assaulted with every trick known to sorcery by Avalon’s daughter gone astray; but Taliesin has studied under the master Merlyn and Percevale has the strength of ten because his heart is pure.

    And then it is over. As the witch crumples to the ground, defeated at last, she finds those last ounces of strength that comes at the time of dying and uses it to place the curse of the Death-Crone upon our hero: “Percevale, from death’s doorstep, I, the Death-Crone, curse you with my last breath; I curse you with the worst misfortune that may befall a man: that you will never find love or be loved ever again—until rocks flow like water, until the day comes that the sun does not rise, until the new moon is seen with the naked eye, until the planet Mercury is seen at high noon, until fire is seen in water, until it snows in Cisalpine Gaul on a summer day, until all of the above events happen on the same day within a month from this very day! In other words, you will never ever find love or be loved!

    “So then, when these events do not happen, for they cannot happen and be seen by you, you will not only be unloved nor able to give love, but you will also find the world to be filled with hate towards you, and you will soon die and forever wear the foolscap of eternal shade, for no man can live for long without love!”

    The witch dies, the King is cursed, but the enslaved are free!

    No Hope for the Hopeless

    Bogar, forever dedicated, takes what is left of his master back to Camelot. Bogar notes the King’s despair and so Percevale tells him the tale of the witch’s curse. “I shall never succeed, Bogar, for most of the witch’s challenges are impossible; that’s the joke of it, I guess. She just threw in one easy one, ‘when rocks flow like water’ to give me false hope, for I do know of a place where rocks flow like water.

    “But no one has ever seen the new moon. Of course, the full moon is easily seen because it is completely lit on the side facing us and rises when the sun sets and is therefore up all night, but the new moon is just the opposite: it rises in the morning, is up all day, sets at evening, and is lit only on the side away from us. It has never been seen, Bogar!

    “Oh, we have seen the slivers of the very young and the very old moons, but the new moon gives no light at all, so, even if we see but a thin crescent moon, then by definition, it is not the new moon. Even if we knew where to look for it in the sky, which we do not, there would be the glare of the sun to contend with. Even the stars, which do give off light, cannot be seen in the daytime, even in areas of the sky not near to the sun.

    “And Mercury, being so close to the sun, can only be seen just before sunrise or just after sunset, but never at high noon! As for snow in late June or July in Southern Gaul, it is not likely and has never occurred.

    “And I have not yet known a day when the sun did not rise. Even on cloudy days we know that the sun has risen, for there is light behind the clouds. And fire in water! It cannot be. Water conquers fire, they cannot coexist. For any of the above to happen is impossible. For all of them to happen on the same day within a month is beyond impossible, yet, I will not give up hope for I know from Avalon’s Lady that all curses have an escape.”

    Percevale spends the day in the archives of Camelot with Taliesin. Then they spend all night in the Merlyn Tower Room, where they pore over old manuscripts full of diagrams But only this much becomes known: The new moon is to appear in two weeks—this fixes the day; and there is only one place where rocks are flowing like water—this fixes the place! There is hardly time to get there, so the King immediately leaves for Iceland.

    The Ice Maiden

    The chronicles covering the journey have not survived the ravages of time, so we find ourselves already close to Iceland. The sea is glorious and the air is fresh and pure. We do know that during the journey north, the twilight lasted longer and longer each day.

    There is not a moment to waste, but Percevale spots a vessel in distress behind him, and for a moment he wonders if he should take the time to come to its aid. But, there is no real choice, so he turns back and although her ship goes under, he manages to pull her from the depths and spends over an hour reviving her. And, even when revived, her lips will not part from his, for they have tasted each other and found it to be sweet.

    “I am cursed, you cannot love me,” says the Ice Maiden finally, who was named Dheryle. “I am sent to remind you of that which is forbidden to you! I have no choice; the spell overwhelms! You should have let me drown; then you would have had some peace. From now on, everyone you touch will catch the curse until the world fills with hate and destroys itself.”

    “So this is how it is going to be,” laments Percevale. “How I shall hate to give up life’s wonders when I am gone!”

    The Greatest Day on Earth

    But, this is to be the day of the new moon; at least there is a chance, thinks Percevale. They arrive on the shore of Iceland, and on this day, as on every day for a month either way in this northern land, the sun does not rise, for it did not set the day before, since it stays aloft all day during these two months of daylight! Just before noon, strange bands of shadows begin to rapidly cross the land and Percevale feels that perhaps the end is near.

    The ground begins to shake and heave for a few moments and then all is silent, so very silent as to strike one dumb. Something terrible seems to be happening. Grazing animals look for shade trees and lie down to sleep. Then, about noontime, the shadow of darkest night covers the land as the moon begins to kiss the sun and cover it—it is a solar eclipse! Merlyn’s old notes in the archive were accurate! Thank the gods for the old wizard!

    During the seven minutes of total darkness, Percevale sees a black disk in the sky, surrounded by faint wisps of flame—it is, of course the new moon in all her black glory; indeed, the new moon can only be seen during a solar eclipse, and never at any other time. There near the sun is a bright “star” that does not twinkle!

    It can only be the planet Mercury! Yes, there it is, in plain sight, at high noon. And farther out, Venus can be seen!

    Now the ground begins to really shake, and Percevale hurries to his ship with the Ice Maiden. They leave Iceland but see the volcano erupt; rocks are flowing to the sea like water! But, the water puts out the fiery flow and so they do not see fire in water, just a lot of steam.

    Then a tremendous plume of smoke and debris is sent up into the sky and is carried south by the unusual winds born of the marriage of summer warmth and ice cold air brought on by the blockage of the sun’s rays by the dense volcanic ash. The spontaneous cold front sweeps south to Gaul on the reversed upper winds, bringing the darkness of the ashen sky with it. As no sunlight can penetrate, the air below grows colder and colder, and what would have been rain now turns to snow over Cisalpine Gaul for a brief time before westerly winds can disperse the volcanic cloud around the earth.

    That evening the sun sinks low, but does not set. On the water is the glitter path of that fiery ball—and so we have fire in water!

    The sun has kissed the moon, and Percevale gathers the Ice Maiden, Dheryle, into his arms and kisses her, his capacity for love far from dead, but growing stronger every minute of this glorious day as both of their curses fall by the wayside.



    Back in Britain, at the shore:

    “There, Dheryle, over those hills, is the former abode of the witch. I must go there to see that all is well, so as to complete my quest that brought us together in the first place.”

    “Well bless her wretched soul! Come Percivale, let us walk the grounds on this late afternoon.”

    Moving through the glittering fields of daylight fireflies, they walk along the lake path, without words. Though still weary from sea travel, love’s energy carries them on its eagles’ wings, as being near to one’s life partner is contentment enough for anyone on a night in the Age of Darkness in the mid-summer.

    There is a strange chill in the air as the woods compel them to enter and share in its secrets on this day of magic.

    Church bells knell the toll of six o’clock from the nearby town. The sounds are muffled and distant because the air has suddenly grown heavy.

    “I think that we are not alone Percivale.”

    “Yes, the forest has many eyes and I have come to love them—and tonight I feel as if the air is filled with the magic, hopes, and dreams of all of the souls which have come before us since the dawn of time.”

    “There is a similar night in my country, during which these feelings of old, sealed in our souls, become known, and float in the air so that we might know of our dim and animal past. Hark! I see movement ahead, and in the trees!”

    They run to the spot, but the impish form is gone; however, the grass is yet bent and marks the small man-creature’s passing.

    “Hold me close, Percevale.”

    “I know this feeling! It is but the witch’s soul on its way to its final and eternal resting spot in hell’s heart. It’s gone now—I again feel the beauty and goodness of man—and only this can ensure the victory of wisdom!”

    The Giant appears.



    The Last Curse on Earth

    Percivale sits down to hear the Giant’s tale and the Giant begins: “The witch placed a curse on me as well. I will forever roam the earth in sadness if I do not accomplish the following by the end of this day: I must see the sun set three times in one day, and, I must, during daylight, create a dark space behind me that never ends. What will I do? I cannot stop the sun and raise it up again, nor can I cause the absence of light behind me and into the infinite depths of space!”

    Day is nearly done and the horizon is rising to meet the bloodshot eye of day. Percivale, having studied under the poet-astronomer, Taliesin, quickly leads the giant to the shore where a small piece of low hilly land juts out into the sea. They face to the west and view the setting sun, now a symbol of the sad giant’s dying hopes. The sun drops though some clouds and is bright again, but half of it is already below the horizon!

    “Look at your shadow, giant! How long is your shadow at sunset or sunrise? What is shortest at noon grows longer as the afternoon wears on, until finally, it stretches forever behind you, since you are directly between the sun and that which is behind you.”

    “That is fine Percivale, but the sun is nearly set and will certainly not rise again until the morrow. I must still see three sunsets!”

    “No time to explain now, giant. Quick! Lie down on the ground and see your first sunset today as the top sliver of the sun falls below, and is extinguished by, the horizon. See! There it goes. Now, quickly, stand up to your great height and what do you see?”

    “I see the tip of the sun again!”

    “And your second sunset of the day, giant?”

    “Yes! I see it, and another green flash as well!”

    “Now run up yonder hill and bring up the sun again so that it may set three times in a day!”

    The gleeful giant runs up the hill in great leaps and turns to see the sun set three, four, even five more times, each sunset lasting a few seconds.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    You might ask, then what's the sense in creating a similar universe?GraveItty

    Life going on in our universe is the Soap Opera Channel for the Divine Guys.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    The lounge area?GraveItty

    It's under categories to the left of this screen. Lounge stuff doesn't show up here.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    Hey! There you are again! What happened to the poems you posted in a thread about philosophical poems? Why did you delete it? :sad:GraveItty

    It's not deleted; they moved the thread to the lounge area.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    The notion of 'God' has already flunked out due to the impossibility of a composite being First and Fundamental. Not even the tiny proton could be Fundamental because its parts would have to be more so.

    The God notion flunks for other reasons too. The universe is full of unintelligent design; a big rock caused the Permian extinction that made the opening for mammals to evolve. There were other extinctions too, and perhaps another is coming.

    What, then is Fundamental instead of 'God'?

    The 'Existence Principle' that says that something has to be, with no option not to be, is applicable to what is the least, not to the greatest, as to what ever is as partless and continuous as the one Permanent thing made only of itself.

    Why does it spawn temporaries such as the universe, us, and 'particles' rather than not, it just sitting there not doing anything?

    Philosophically and scientifically, we note that it doesn't sit still; therefore it can't remain still, and so it is energetic.

    How does it form the temporaries, given that it can only be itself and not change into anything different than itself?

    It thus can only rearrange itself, as it must, being energetic, into the temporaries that come and go, some of them lasting for quite a while, as events, not things.

    Many proposed Fundamentals have fallen by the wayside, such as Newton's Absolute Time and Space and the idea of Absolute elementary 'particles' as themselves producing fields. What is left are quantum fields that produce the elementaries at stable rungs of energy quanta at those specific levels of excitations.

    We note this happening along with the upward progression of the universe from the simple unto the more complex doing what was supposed as God's job, naturally only, this necessarily taking almost 14 billion years up to now, with no magic therein, even at causality's great speed that is the speed of light, and still the continuing existence of humans is precarious.

    RIP Notion of 'God'; It was never going to wash that the lesser had to be created by the greater, and so forth, ad infinitum…
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    But that doesn't touch the larger question of why anything exists at all.Wayfarer

    It can be touched by noting that the Something is, so either its alternative could not be here instead of it or it has no alternative; thus, it cannot not be, which is the first attribute we can get out of it.

    Second, since it has to be, it is the eternal existent.

    Third, what never begins or is timeless can't have any specific direction or design put into it.

    Fourth?
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    Seriously, No. It's not enough to say something like "Him the be ending up the start" and say that suffices as a coherent remark.I like sushi

    It's still the minimum common basis of the notion of the Creator.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    Because no one can define 'God'.I like sushi

    It's enough to say God created the universe by using His Mind.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    But, ex nihilo and something from nothing doesn't have to be true, doesn't it, and we rely on the PSR through science to prove this!Shawn

    thanks. Yes, as I'm noting that 'Nothing' cannot be productive, much less be or even be meant; Thus this is the sufficient reason for the eternal base existent of necessity which both the God case and the non God case have to employ.

    In the non God case, it is simple, such as the 'vacuum', but in the God case it is not just a lot more than simple but infinitely more and thus infinitely impossible because not even any composite or complexity can be First.

    For further confirmation, we look to our universe and see that the lesser evolved to the greater over 14 billion years of Cosmic and Biological evolution.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    This would be the beginning of the path to disprove God, that 'Nothing' cannot be, making the base something not to be an option but mandatory, it having no alternative or opposite; thus, no supernatural magic is required.PoeticUniverse

    The next step in the analysis would be to have to use the same principle of 'The Necessary Existent' for God having to be, as the mandatory Existent, again because there can be no opposite; thus the principle is sound!

    You can figure what's coming next… I'm stretching it out in the hope that responders will notice it amid so many other responses.
  • Neither science nor logic can disprove God?
    God is not needed to explain why there is something rather than nothingShawn

    This would be the beginning of the path to disprove God, that 'Nothing' cannot be, making the base something not to be an option but mandatory, it having no alternative or opposite; thus, no supernatural magic is required.
  • Philosphical Poems
    Pale rugged Winter bending o’er his tread,
    His grizzled hair bedropt with icy dew;
    His eyes, a dusky light congeal’d and dead,
    His robe, a tinge of bright ethereal blue;
    Michael Zwingli

    I like autumn, too, and its portend of winter.

    OLD AUTUMN

    The glow-worms, fairy stars come down to ground,
    Gleam the shadowy woods through summer’s round;
    Then fall’s leaves flutter through the quiet air,
    The autumn being the sunset of the year.

    The rustling of the trees comes to my ear,
    In this,the most mellow time of year.
    The harvest brings fulfillment, yearning too,
    For autumn is both a smile and a tear.

    Each year in October Jack-in-the-Green
    Has a chilled rendezvous with Old Autumn,
    Who colors the leaves that Jack made verdant
    A season ago. They meet out in the woods,
    Although never in the same place, for seasons
    Come and go and meet each other as they may.

    Reveal
    This year Old Autumn was a little late,
    So Jack-in-the-Green sat down on a stump.
    Jack pondered his disappearing green youth,
    For someday he would have to take Autumn’s place
    And perform all of his withering tasks.

    A few days later Old Autumn came by;
    He gave unto Jack a cheery greeting
    And a warm embrace that marked summer’s end.

    He gazed fondly at Jack, his younger self,
    And saw the vitality that was once his,
    And said, “Once I was young; once I was you!”

    “I know,” said Jack, “Do you remember how
    I refused to believe you, saying ‘no’?”

    “Yes,” remembered Old Autumn, “very well,
    Like the time I met the Old Man, Winter
    On a snowy December day long ago.
    He told me that he was my older self—
    But I didn’t believe him! Told him off!

    “True, I was already feeling my age
    But after seeing the old white-haired geezer
    I felt young again! Yes, he knew me well.”

    “Right,” said Jack, “so I made a little poem:
    “When younger, I knew not my elder same,
    But when older I told my younger same
    That youth must be young; he knew not my name!
    It was my younger self who was to blame!”

    Swallows twittered in the skies as sprightly
    Jack-in-the-Green picked a ripening gourd
    And gave it to Old Autumn, who encouraged,
    “You won’t have to meet the Old Man until
    You take my place, for only I can see him—
    After I take down the last of the oak leaves.

    “For now, the Old Man sends but his errand boy,
    Jack Frost, your twin brother. Hi ho, here he comes!
    Aye, young Jack, this is the rarest of days,
    For the three of us can be together
    But once a year on this bright day / cool night.”


    “The Old Man is so lonely, is he not?”
    Asked Jack-in-the-Green, “for he sees only you.”

    “Yes. Old Man Winter lives cold and alone;
    He never sees the fair maidens of spring
    Who reinvent the natural world each year.”

    There is a chill in the air as Jack Frost arrives
    And sings out a greeting: “Hello my brother!
    Hello Old Autumn! It’s going to be cold—
    Our first frost, but don’t worry too much—
    It won’t harm the pumpkins any at all.”

    Old Autumn sighed and quick replied: “Good.
    Now the rest of the leaves will crack and fall
    All the more due to the ice in their veins;
    Yes, they’ll fall like the illusions of youth,
    ‘Lying carelessly on the granary floor’ and
    ‘On a half-reaped furrow sound asleep,
    Drowsed with the fume of poppies’, as Keats wrote.”

    Composing himself, Old Autumn continued:
    “And for those of you who think that ‘warm days
    Will never cease’, let us ever remember
    Dear Johnny Keats, who died so young, at 25;
    However, he lived and saw more than some
    Of us might hope to do in a lifetime.”

    A shiver ran through Jack-in-the-Green,
    Hence he said: “It’s cold; I must go now, for
    Summer passed away in his sleep last night;
    Autumn, sweet and plump, carries his offspring.
    The year dies in the night; ghostly winter looms;
    Lo; the flower is already in the seed.”

    “Well done, young Jack-in-the-Green; quick, go,
    For soon enough comes your autumn of care
    Sobering into age, thence into
    The pale white winter of death,
    Though not yet your warm indolent summer
    Of contentment lazing into middle-age,
    But surely past is our crisp,
    Flowering youth-spring of joy!

    “Such then, comes the end of summer’s dreams,
    The blanching of the grassy banks of streams,
    But all fragrances my elves remember
    Through their long sleep in the winter embers.

    “The blossoms fall, showers of fragrant beauty,
    As leaves fade, while the bulbs store up energy.
    Nature’s floral dreams grant this destiny,
    For these leavings enrich earth’s potpourri.

    “Flowers lay their heads to sleep in soft beds,
    Blanketed by webs of gossamer threads;
    My elfin creatures cast their spectral glow,
    As winter stars—floral twins—start to grow.

    “Later, when surely all the world is dead,
    An elf will stand atop Old Winter’s grave
    And say, ‘’tis not dead’, and by magic bred
    Make Snowdrops flower in the tomb’s heat wave.”

    Once I, the author, ventured outside at
    Four on a dark frosty October morning.
    It was so quiet that I could sense the
    Cosmos as it played rhythm to my beating heart.

    I saw a preview of the winter stars:
    Orion, you are so high in the sky—
    There for only the astronomer’s eye,
    As all those meteors go flying by.

    Then I heard a rustling sound in the leaves
    Around me—a skunk perhaps—but no,
    It was the sound of many falling leaves.
    I knew that it must be him, Old Autumn.

    He was out there somewhere. Then I sensed him
    Going by, for some of the leaves on the
    Tree right in front of me broke loose and
    Floated away, hitting some other leaves
    On the way down, making that rustling sound.

    Soon it started up on the next tree, and
    Then the next—and so I could very well
    Follow the path of Old Autumn making
    His rounds in the misty October morn.

    Chrysanthemums drank the mellow day,
    Falling petals carried the light away.

    The weed-flowers grew, marking autumn’s track,
    The blossoms that almost brought the spring back,
    But winter’s white death wrap was drawn over,
    Smothering the earth’s last warm sweet odour.

    The autumn fog enswirled, the mist upcurled;
    Into nothingness the wisp slow unfurled.
    November flew by, a colorless dearth,
    And December, amid death, a festive birth.

    Youth and Beauty made agèd Winter mourn
    For Summer’s grain—the waving wheat and corn,
    For Old Autumn, withered, wan, had passed on,
    Leaving the earth a widow, weather worn.

    Long since have the winds scattered the leaves
    Of the trees to make of them a
    Burial shroud for the flowers that died
    Grieving at summer’s passing. All is death.

    The fall is now nearly lost to memory.
    Winter is summer’s ungrateful heir,
    Squandering his riches and abusing his gifts.
    It’s not Old Man Winter’s fault, but his duty.

    Summer lies underground now, forgotten,
    Silent and crusty, covered by winter’s
    Stern mantle. Only April’s tears can make
    His grave lush again, in the spring-tide.

    As seasons pass, the world comes to our door:
    Spring sings through the wingèd troubadour;
    Summer calls with the rose, ’midst the wood-lore;
    Autumn crows, plump and sweet, through frosty hoar.

    Joy and exuberance are spring’s largesse.
    Sunlight, warmth, and growth are summer’s bequest.
    Autumn brings wealth with the mellow harvest.
    Winter’s fruit is peace—its bounty is rest.

    Past us is the flower of spring’s soft breath;
    Though not ended our summer of promise;
    Soon enough will come the autumn of care;
    Beheld, at last, the dull white shroud of death!

    March, April! spring! We’ll reign as we May there,
    Between June and her sister, September,
    Then prolong the fall, till November come
    December, when we can sweet Remember.

    In the whisperings of the after-years
    The winds of time slowly dry the tears;
    Nor would I take back a single drop, for
    From those tears the flowers grew without fears.

    In spring we rise from the garden at birth.
    Summer blooms long with the roses’ fresh mirth.
    Autumn creeps in—we wither on the vine.
    Last comes winter, when we return to earth.

    ————

    Drive my dead thoughts over the universe, 
    Like wither'd leaves, to quicken a new birth;

    And, by the incantation of this verse,
      Scatter, as from an unextinguish'd hearth
     Ashes and sparks, my words among mankind!
     
    Be through my lips to unawaken'd earth
     The trumpet of a prophecy! O Wind,
    If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind?

    Percy Bysshe Shelley
    English poet (1792 - 1822)
  • Do You Believe In Fate or In Free-Will?
    We know that the will is usually free to operate, but that doesn't make one 'free' in any deep and non-trivial sense. The will is fixed to what one's brain repertoire has come to be up to that moment. The fixed will is the brain using its knowledge to provide future.

    Though learning and experience we may enlarge the depth and range of our successive fixed wills through our ongoing choices if we are not truly too stuck to learn, but, again, the fixed will is ever consistent with who we've come to be. There is no being 'free' of the will; it does as it must.

    The universe does us, not some other way around such as we somehow being mini first causes with no input. You will find that no one can ever really say what the 'free' in 'free will' is supposed to be free of, but for coercion, which, too, would have been determined.

    While occasional 'random' or chemical brain mistakes would make events come out differently than they were meant to, this doesn't help the will but hurts it.

    I have been describing a linear mode of time, but a block universe of Fate would do the same.
  • Philosphical Poems
    This is a reasonable request. I'll look at what the others have written and see if I have anything to add.T Clark

    Good news! Thanks.

    On the lengthy and plenty point, that's fixed, plus I've found a way to reference longer poems by just pointing to a link that downloads a PDF hosted on one of my websites, such as the whole of the 'Flora Symbolica' poem about the lore and legends of the plants and flowers:

    text: https://austintorn.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/flora-symbolica-text-8.5x11.pdf

    illustrated (may take a minute to arrive):
    https://austintorn.files.wordpress.com/2021/09/fsi-17x11-jpg-jpg-150-dpi.pdf

    video (long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOZknZJNA2U
  • Philosphical Poems
    We all have, upon occasion, intense inner experiences associated with places, events, or situations, which we cannot seem to describe adequately to make another person feel what we have felt, and understand what we have understood. A great poet is able to use language in a manner which recalls such experiences, and makes one think, "yes, I have experienced that, but could never describe it". It is the experience upon reading a poem of finding the expression for something profound that one has experienced but never been able to describe. This experience upon reading a poem tends to give someone the "fifty mile stare", and makes a person feel a need to say "...thank you so much..." to the poet.Michael Zwingli

    Yes, that's it, and you are a helpful discusser.

    What you said about "something profound" as the basis for poetry can be described by poems about poetry:

    A poem is a truth fleshed in living words,
    Which by showing unapprehended proof
    Lifts the veil to reveal hidden beauty—
    It’s life’s image drawn in eternal truth.

    Poetry dresses the phantasmic new
    By enshrining the apparition’s brew,
    Captured and bottled as aquavita,
    Wisdom’s pearls, from the evanescent dew.

    Poetry lives silently in an illustration;
    A poem’s beauty is its painting with diction.
    These, like music, are works of worldly art,
    Just shadows of a deeper perfection!

    Poetry makes clear what is barely heard,
    For it translates soul-language into words,
    Whereas, melody plays straight on the heart;
    Merged, they create song; heart and soul converge.

    Poetry makes immortal what is best
    In life: it frees images of dreams impressed,
    Apprehends the vanishing phantasms,
    And sends them forth in fine words, fully dressed.
    ('fully dressed' phrase borrowed from someone)

    The Rubaiyat Poetic Form

    The verses beat the same, in measured chime.
    Lines one-two set the stage, one-two-four rhyme.
    Verse three’s the pivot around which thought turns;
    Line four delivers the sting, just in time.
  • Philosphical Poems
    Now physics is nice. Your poems are a welcome addition to it! Are you a physicist yourself? Of course your poems lack humans, as it subject matter is the universe. The Poetic Universe. There is reference made to human affairs.GraveItty

    Thanks for discussing. Yes, many of my poems are meant to convey scientific and the philosophical themes in a non dry manner in digestible stanza chunks. I'm not a physicist but I understand it enough to interpret it for the lay reader. Your physics posts in other thread are as excellent as I've seen anywhere; you even understand the math, too, so your reviews will be helpful. I involve humans in other poems.
  • Philosphical Poems
    is best written with great deliberation and attention to meter and, if applicable, to rhyme.Michael Zwingli

    That is my main style, not a stream of consciousness, but in ten syllable quatrains that take quite a while to rhyme without the rhyme being an intrusion, plus to package a pearl in each stanza, making them easy digestible units of the whole poem, as in the one referenced, plus 'Flora Symbolica' intro, and more, near to those in this thread when Amnity was responding. "Intellect" often shows in very philosophical poems as much as it does in philosophy.

    I don't use stream of consciousness; the poems don't come out that quickly. I don't aim for free verse either. Poetry requires more work than what can just go plop in just a live stream of thoughts arising.

    Perhaps Mr. Clark might also add or rewrite a stanza in the referenced poem to show how it could become good poetry beyond its already lyrical, rhyming, metered form that you say he likes, but, first, let us see what he says this second time around of being asked to bolster his bare generalization about the 'Worldly Love' poem. How did you like it? Are you also still claiming '18'?

    (Explaining the poetic style only):

    A long time ago I read all of Shelley’s poems,
    He being a scientific romanticist known,
    Who plumbed the depths of mystery,
    And too Keats and Byron, as eagerly,

    They being the romantics of the Earthly realm,
    Along with Omar Khayyam, at Sultan’s helm,
    A romantic scientist who invented algebra,
    As well as cherishing all of nature above Allah.

    Omar was as Mr. Spock’s logic,
    But with the glory of life added to it,
    While Shelley was more of Dr. McCoy’s
    Excessives of emotional, romantic ploys,

    But Keats and Byron were more
    Of a blend, like Captain Kirk’s sure
    And dashing action tempered with reason—
    A man for each and every season.

    So, I ended up writing poems in the styles
    Of Shelley’s and Old Khayyàm’s wiles,
    The former being flowingly lyrical—
    The latter twistingly epigrammatical,

    Short ones at first, very precise,
    But also using them as a concise
    Way to whittle down entire books
    To the few gems and pearls in their nooks.

    So now after many educated years,
    I still use them to boil down the idears.

    (Anyway, no more epics, as being too long for the readers, plus they are not easy to do.)
  • Philosphical Poems
    I can see that your poetry is heart-felt and sincere. It's romantic, which is fine. It is also philosophical, as the OP specifies. But it is not good poetry.T Clark

    Amnity asks: What is wrong with it ? Constructive criticism, any ?

    Any specifics concerning "But it is not good poetry?" to make your generalization helpful?

    Here is the poem: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/599584
  • Philosphical Poems
    deal?Michael Zwingli

    I can agree to not posting any more lengthy poems.
  • Philosphical Poems
    The God of the Old Testament

    Of all my rotten luck,
    The God of the Old Testament
    Appeared and proclaimed,
    “I am Yahweh, never absent,
    For those schooled from infancy
    In My strange ways
    Have become desensitized
    To My horrific side,

    “And so they continue to
    Keep Me very much alive,
    Through their thoughts;
    So, fire away at Me;
    I no longer bite that hard, you see.”

    “You’re too easy of a target to attack for free—
    So it would be rather unfair of me.”

    “True, and I won’t deny it—
    It’s all there in the Testament.
    I was the most unpleasant character
    That anyone ever made up in literary fiction.

    “I was revealed to be jealous and proud of it,
    Petty, unjust, controlling, vindictive,
    An ethic cleanser, genocidal, infanticidal,

    “Filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal,
    Homophobic, misogynistic, sadomasochistic,
    And much more, and a Bully—who gave it
    Free will only if it matched My own Will.”

    “Peace be with you.
    How about the New Testament
    To replace and hide Your scent,
    As many religions have already
    Done through Jesus sent?”

    “Yes, that Testament is quite opposite in tone,
    But I am still the Father of Jesus sown,
    So the problem of Me can never really go away.
    I am what I was, still here unto the present day.”

    “Well, so long. You’re the worst role model yet
    That human mammals have ever dreamed up.
    Who would imitate, emulate,
    Or follow You as a ‘leader’?”

    “Well, My followers are those numerous slaves
    Who excuse my mysterious [insane] ways,
    Along with my exclusive desert tribe.”

    “Well, You’re the Boss, and, anyway,
    Who ever said that a God
    Had to be perfect and good?”

    “Everyone that I told—
    And those who thought I should.”

    “Oh well, never mind; whatever pleases.
    So, um, Joseph was not
    The biological father of Jesus?”

    “No, I was.”

    “So Jesus really did descend from David?”

    “That was on his mother’s side.”

    “Well, my ancestors descended from the trees.
    Hey, why don’t Catholics get the 72 virgins
    That Islam gives for martyrdom for their sins?”

    “I told each religious faith a different story.”

    “You also gave a bible half-different
    To the Mormon founder,
    Joseph Smith, finely engraved
    On golden plates he discovered?”

    “Sure. I thought at the time ‘why not’.”

    “You had Islam add different things
    To their Koran as well?”

    “Yes of the many more ways to avoid Hell.”

    “And You told only the Catholics
    That there were umpteen levels of angels
    And that bread was your body
    And that wine was your blood?”

    “Yep, I told just them and a few other selves,
    But they made up the Saints themselves.”

    “And You presented differing visions
    To the Lutherans,
    The Episcopals, and the Jewish,
    And to many other also-rans?”

    “Pretty much,
    Except that a King of England
    Founded the Episcopals—
    The Anglicans, of course,
    Since his own religion
    Wouldn’t give him a divorce.”

    “And you killed everyone but Noah
    And his family in the Great Flood, wet,
    Even young children and their pets?”

    “Sure, again, why not? Life is cheap.
    However, My creation of the rainbow
    Says that I’ll never be so cruel again.
    What can I say—I goofed. My sin.”

    “But You are infallible, and even omniscient
    And so You know all of the future meant.
    You even broke your own commandments!”

    “My omnipotence of changing my mind
    Got in the way.”

    “But your omniscience knew you would…
    One day.”

    “Yeah, I know—it’s a paradox; oh the strife.
    And I can still technically end all life,
    By means other than a flood.”

    “You burned people in Hell, not saved,
    When they didn’t follow
    The unfree will that you gave?”

    “Yes, because I was not a loving God.”

    “Well, God, who made You?”

    “No problem—either I was Eternal or I made Myself”

    “This is remarkably the same, but for Thee,
    As the Universal ingredients would be.”

    “Then who would need me—wait,
    I don’t want the answer told.”

    “Is the Earth only about 4000 years old?”

    “Of course not but I may have let that slip to some,
    To tease their intelligence apart from being dumb.”

    “Do you mind-read
    The thoughts of every human,
    Using all of your acumen,
    And write the earthly script for each event,
    Being so omnipresent?”

    “I tried that at first, but it didn’t work for Me
    To put my finger on every atom that be,
    To micromanage its doings for all of thee.”

    “That’s called ‘God’s Will’,
    By some, even now.
    What went wrong?
    Was it the where and how?”

    “It disrupted the atoms’ normal
    And natural movements.”

    “And that’s what caused the storms unfocused,
    The lightning bolts and the plagues of locusts?”

    “Yes, so I stopped making such a mess of things.”

    “So the prayers of six million Jews pleaded
    In the holocaust went all unheeded?”

    “Yes, plus I have better things to do, in time,
    My sooth,
    Than look after some old experiment of Mine
    From my misspent youth.”

    “Did you really make Adam and Eve
    And all of Earth and Nature, as we believe?”

    “Yes, I made Nature,
    Including the humans, in My image.”

    “It shows in their rage.”

    “Thank you.”

    “God, it’s ID deja-vu all over again—
    I really have to move on.”

    “No, wait. I like your questions.
    I’m mellower now, this being My new direction.
    Not as many strictly admit to Me anymore.”

    “How come so many of the gospels were omitted
    From the New Catholic Testament,
    Like those of Thomas, Peter, Nicodemus,
    Philip, Bartholomew, and more,

    “As well as whole books kept from us,
    Although You told some other religions to keep them,
    Such as the Book of Revelations?”

    “Those gospels were embarrassing and wild;
    They told about My Son doing magic tricks
    And practical jokes on people when He was a child.”

    “Oh, we never heard much about his youth.
    And didn’t You send the Mormons proof
    That Jesus spent an early era
    In what was to become America?”

    “Probably.”

    “What about the trillions of galaxies in the sky?”

    “They’re just for show and scenery on high.”
    “Where’s all your rantings and ravings
    That I’ve heard about?”

    “I now take Prozac for
    My mood swings and bouts.”

    “You don’t really exist, do You, as mental,
    For how could You have an emotional system—
    As composite—and still be absolute and fundamental?”

    “No, I don’t exist,
    For how could I since I am so horrible?
    Human mammals made all of Me up
    As a very bad example,

    “As it turned out, from their many fears
    In the childhood of their species’ years.
    Unfortunately, it caught on to their children’s ears.”

    “So, yet You still subsist
    In this indefinite locus of wishes?”

    “Yes, sort of.
    I am sustained here since many children
    Have learned to obey and listen
    To what is-was told to them,

    “For this obeying was an
    Evolutionarily useful thing,
    As many of their obediences
    Resulted from warnings of things

    “That were truly dangerous,
    And so the children grew up
    To indoctrinate their own children
    In all the ‘knowledge’.”

    “We’ll have to offer more reason
    To those so indoctrinated.
    Now farewell to You, the impersonated.”

    “See you. Pay no attention to Me as certain,
    But to all those blinded by the curtain.”

    He soon dozed off into never land.
  • Philosphical Poems
    The God of the Agnostics

    I came next upon a God sitting on a high fence,
    And waved to Him, saying
    “Come down and talk the whence.”

    “I can’t; I am stuck here, but Salutations to you.
    I am the God of Agnosticism, one neither false nor true.
    None of the agnostics know if I exist or not,
    So here I must stay put a lot,

    “Along with the Tooth Fairy,
    Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny,
    Just in case we all might exist or not,
    As a quadzillion-to-one shot.”

    “Why can’t agnostics make up their minds?”

    “My followers cannot even make or see
    Probability judgments about the question of Me.
    This is the limitation of agnosticism,

    “Perhaps the error of no consideration
    Of the likelihood of that for which evidence seeable
    Is not even the least bit conceivable.”

    “It is a fallacy; what I call the poverty of agnosticism,
    Because though being agnostic is reasonable criticism
    For some things, such as whether life exists elsewhere,
    It is not appropriate for those things undoable,

    “For which the idea of evidence is not even applicable;
    However, actually, we can actually still talk
    About the probability of the event,
    While even going for a walk.

    “The true fallacy, however, is that the existence ever,
    And the nonexistence of You never,
    Are not even on an even footing to begin with.
    The two are not at all equiprobable cases.

    “The burden of proof lies with the believers,
    For anything that we can conceive of
    Can be claimed to exist, as that we love,
    Such as ghosts, spirits, and such forth.

    “Are we then to straddle a fence that has no worth?
    And, never seen. So, then, at the end of the day,

    “Probability creeps into the beliefs of the agnostic way,
    For in practice they end up in the lurch,
    Not going ‘half the time’ to Church,
    But mostly deciding not to go at all.”

    “Yes, they still decide that which is ‘undecidable’,
    For the fence is very uncomfortable
    And so then the superposition

    “Decoheres into the inclination
    Of non belief—until, right here,
    The Extraordinary’s evidence appears.”
    He came down off the fence,
    For he couldn’t exist and not exist at the same time.
    I continued on through the undulating hills.

    (We can refer to the fence sitters as non theists
    In order to get away from labels like ‘agnostic’
    Which might imply that the probability of thinking
    God or not is on some kind of equal footing;

    Plus that the fence sitters don’t really stay
    On the uncomfortable fence but usually…

    Go one way or the other way
    In life’s practice of the everyday,
    Although some might go to church
    On alternating Sundays.

    In between, perhaps they go
    On wild picnics with their sweetie
    And drink wine and do all that ‘bad’ stuff,
    That we can’t say here, while waiting for some
    Extraordinary evidence to appear.

    I will soon have a talk with
    Old Jehovah Yahweh’s Thee.
    He’s not so terrible as many
    Have made Him up to be,
    But then again He’s not
    So great either—He’s quite off,
    Just another poor middle manager
    Caught up in the layoffs.

    I already spoke to the Deity
    The God who doesn’t ever interfere
    In the running of the universe.

    The Pope doesn’t know it here,
    But a Deity is what he’s
    Leaning toward when he says then
    That evolution is acceptable now
    For Catholics to believe in (no mind).

    The Deity Guy was
    Actually kind of a great scientist.
    And I already met with
    The Creationist’s ID God,
    Who while still a Designer
    Is, well, not so cool at all, either,

    For He gets back to what
    The Fundamentalists believe,
    And neither, they would say,
    Did evolution happen,
    Or if it did ever function,
    God constantly stepped in
    To rectify its direction.

    I haven’t really begun
    To scratch the surface of all the Gods,
    Though, for so many lie now beneath the sod.

    I’m only interested in
    The person-type Gods of monotheism,
    And I’m hardly even getting
    Through those variant theisms
    That fight amongst themselves
    Over Jesus’ divinity, or if there is a Hell,

    Or a Devil and some Angels about thee,
    And over so many more
    And other major differences, totally.

    Then there are the multiple Gods,
    Now up in the millions,
    And the many Gods-who-are-not-persons,
    Plus the TAO, the Consciousness,
    And some way-out Ones.

    There are also hundreds
    Of long gone, ‘sure thing’ Gods,
    Which I needn’t get into,
    Except to wonder, and say:
    Is that how the future will
    Look at our Gods of today?

    I can also skip the many
    Weird offshoots that persist,
    Like those saying that
    The self is not allowed to exist,
    Even calling it ‘ego’ to make
    It seem so much worse;
    I don’t have time for these
    And other cult-level verse.)

PoeticUniverse

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