Interesting point. Declaring causality to be an illusion is certainly a thing that has been done, but it's not a part of determinism. If consciousness is illusion, then knowledge and information must be as well, and that would lead to concepts being illusions. — BlueBanana

Determinism naturally leads to Hinduism but of course it is not going to be taught this way, for it would undermine the "scientific" aspects of Determinism. It's funny that Darwin was forced to admit his whole theory falls under this illusion (it being meaningless) as would all if science. Science Burris itself in its self-made illusion. Such irony.

. However, the concept represents something. What people understand when the word determinism is used would be an illusion according to determinism, but what the concept represents, what the word determinism refers to, would not be an illusion. — BlueBanana

A true Determinist ultimately has to succumb to the inevitable that if the mind is an illusion so it's their whole existence and experience. Rather dismal prospects. This is Hinduism at its finest. Maybe scientists will have to take up ascetic mediation to break through the illusion (Maya).

The illusion that you said there'd be if determinism was the case. — BlueBanana

Sure, for anyone who adopts Determinism as their philosophy everything is an illusion - including Determinism. It's rather Hindu in nature.

Dude, I don't even believe in determinism myself. I'm arguing against you because your arguments are fallacious and you've misunderstood the concepts of determinism and physicalism. — BlueBanana

I understand it very well. It's just hard to believe that people actually believe in it, but then again, we are dealing with the human mind.

So you admit that the illusion of self exists in determinism (btw what you are describing is physicalism). Then this illusion is what is called self, therefore it is the self, therefore the self exists, as an "illusion" that emerges from the particles. — BlueBanana

What illusion? It's just us.

What a funny way to look at life? Particles are admitting illusions? I guess for some people it is fun thinking of themselves in this manner. Who am I to question such?

Real time (duration) is the feeling of existence. It is heterogeneous in nature and continuous.

This differs from "scientific time" which attempts to measure the simultaneity if events (the Einstein frame of reference solution).

One can say that duration (real time) emerges from the mind as a manifestation of existence. And while it is continuous, there is a feeling of some change of this feeling when asleep.

It's all real, just in different forms. Everything is the mind evolving and experimenting (creating).

To understand life, one must continue to observe ones own mind and the minds of others. All of the "physical" stuff are just creations of the mind.

The best answer I've come up with is that the Mind had learned that that this is the best way to function with other Minds. However, psychology has observed situations where there seem to be multiple 'I's" functioning in a single body.

Mind is everywhere. It is dispersed throughout the body. The mind in the gut area is well recognized as is the mind throughout the muscular system (i.e. muscle memory). The human body had 10x more microbes than human cells, and those microbes have their own minds.

The "minds" in the body communicate with each other via the nervous system, which in itself is another form of mind. Out of habit they learn to work together, but at times they are overridden by the larger mind which we call the "I". The I creates and commands via will power (exerts energy stored in the body). This process can be overt (conscious) or maybe be developing in a less focused manner unconsciously, since the mind is dispersed and is every bit a mystery as is the life out creates. It observes itself and in doing so continues to learn more about itself.

Perception is an experience as are mental images and shocks and beliefs intentions and memories are clearly not. — michael r d james

One's life is a continuous, heterogeneous experience unless one chooses too define it differently.

The rub is what do we call the state if non-experiencing (e.g. while asleep and not dreaming). Hence consciousness is experiencing and unconscious is not experiencing.

This is what I wrote.

We are each have different skills and capabilities as we have evolved differently (different inherited or inborn traits) which is to say we have different memories (which can be developed over multiple physical lives). We are all different because we all have different memories. — Rich

That was my point.

Why is that relevant?
And in what way, exactly? — charleton

Different memories, different abilities.

No that is not to say we have different memories at all. — charleton

Have you ever compared your memories with others?

well yes that is true but there are a lot of unexplained phenomena that suggests that we are capable of more advanced things — David Solman

We are each have different skills and capabilities as we have evolved differently (different inherited or inborn traits) which is to say we have different memories (which can be developed over multiple physical lives). We are all different because we all have different memories.

But I think the argument that we don't choose what we believe — darthbarracuda

We don't choose what we believe, we form beliefs. We form beliefs by engaging and experimenting. The experiments themselves are partially choice, since they are constrained.

Individuals can only voice their sentiments. Government is essentially controlled by money interests and in general political/socio-economic changes only occur after economic calamities that unite people for political change. Most of these are usually only temporary as revealed in the lastest successes by the super-rich class to rollback most of the Depression era banking reforms and protections.

Is it possible to lack belief on any issue that you are aware of (meaning you possess knowledge/experience/information about the issue)? — JustSomeGuy

We are our minds, and our minds explore and learn things and from these explorations we create beliefs which we share with each other. If there is lots of agreement, we might call these beliefs facts and when we form facts which we believe in very intensely it becomes dogma. Beliefs, both personal and public, are constantly evolving and changing. It's healthy to allow for flexibility in beliefs and with life in general. Flexibility promotes flow and flow is the key to a healthy mind, body, and spirit.

The fabric of reality, by definition, is unchanging — SnowyChainsaw

It is always changing. Just observe.

Because of a deterministic causal chain, a damn has been built, preventing the valley from flooding. — Michael

Right, it is the Laws of Nature that are guiding EVERYTHING and they create the illusion that a good is being prevented. The concept of "prevention" had no meaning in a universe guided by the emotionless Laws if Nature.

Under Determinism, there is no Will and there is most certainly no Compatibilist Free Will, other than the illusions that emerge from the Determined, morally inert Laws of Nature. Determinists want the Universe to be a computer, they got it. As the OP suggests, Free Will of any sort is incompatible with Determinism and Compatibilism is just another illusion from a Determinist perspective. Actually Compatibilism is just another description of a Mind exerting Free Will, so went academic philosophy categorizes it as a variation of Determinism is beyond me.

So I don't see why we can't say that determinism allows for the capacity to prevent some action or another. — Michael

If every thing is determined then what is doing the "preventing"??

Compatibilists simply introduce an entirely new force of nature, apparently free from the Deterministic Laws of Nature, called Free Will, that can choose. Well, at this point, Compatibilism is no longer deterministic. It has become everything but. This is what the OP observes. Compatibilism is incompatible with Determinism.

Memory, however, is the recollection of the fabric of reality and can be altered, created and destroyed. — SnowyChainsaw

Destroyed, probably not, since it is the fabric of the universe. However, it does morph and evolve. This is what we actually experience in every day life. Memory changes.

well yes that is my belief that the consciousness is very powerful — David Solman

Consciousness is exactly as we are experiencing it. It is a creative life force that is constantly experimenting, learning, and evolving. It is different as we each experience it, as there are differences in the waves in the ocean, but it is neither mystical or all powerful, it is simply different, hence we have Mozarts, idiot-savants, bakers, tool makers, etc. All manifestations of a creative, living force that is evolving.

Firstly, you seem to conflate determinism and physicalism. — Michael

The two depend upon each other. Introducing any other concepts pollutes determinism with non-determinism. We (and all of experience) is an illusion emerging from bouncing particles. Hence, Darwin's reluctant concession that his explanation had no relevance, it is an illusion everything from a deterministic universe (as is quantum theory for that matter). EVERYTHING is subsidiary to the Laws of Nature (God).

I wonder if your argument is self-defeating. If there are only particles and the laws that guide them then there surely there's no such thing as an illusion (or Darwin or theories or ideas or taking something seriously, etc.)? — Michael

This is ultimately the problem with Determinism. How does it explain ANYTHING if the universe is just bouncing particles? It can't!, So it makes all of conscious and everything we experience an illusion! How does this illusion materialize, emerge? Well we get all kinds of ridiculous explanations such as the Existence of a Thermal-dynamic Imperative or Selfish Genes or whatever (totally fabricated concepts) which in themselves mean nothing.

In itself, Determinism explains nothing and means nothing. It is this idea that everything is Determined which is similar to Calvinism with the concept of Laws of Nature replacing God. And if you want to know why something is the way it is, you just refer to b the omnipotence of the Laws of Nature. Determinism is a religion, pure and simple, and scientists who believe in it are the priests.

So you are relating time to consciousness? — bahman

Yes, this is the real time of existence.

one has free will if one's will is causally responsible for one's actions. — Michael

There is no such thing as "one", "will", "free", "responsibility" in determinism. These are all illusions that emerge (quite magically) from particles that are simply bouncing around in accordance to the "Laws of Nature". Determinism is only particles and the Laws that guide them. Any other concept pollutes Determinism with non-deterministic ideas. This is why Darwin had to concede that his whole theory was meaningless . Pretty interesting what happens to people when they actually take determinism seriously.

To find an already to this problem one must attempt to grasp the actual feeling of time and existence.

When one is asleep there is no sense of time though there may be a sense of existence while dreaming. But what if there is no dreaming? Is there existence? There is certainly no sense of time. When we wake you, our sense of existence (our mind's sense of being) leaps into a different feeling of time/duration.

It is in the actual contemplation of life as we feel it that such questions can be understood. But I've must first completely jettison the scientific view of existence, because science cannot answer that kind of questions. It only measures with symbolics. It can never grasp life in the way contemplation can.

While it is easy to see how a physical neuro-mechanism can generate the content of consciousness — lorenzo sleakes

Only if one skips over specifics and replaces it with a magical idea.

Let's examine the thought process: you have a neuron and PRESTO! it creates consciousness.

One's actions are always determined, and one's will is always determined by some external influence — Michael

There is zero evidence of this and pretty much universally rejected by law because it is counter to everyday experience of life. So why is it adopted by certain sects? Because some people have to believe that some external force is guiding their life. "God made me do it" just doesn't hold water except maybe in the Dark Ages of witchcraft and its latest reincarnation, Determinism.

Mind is exactly what it is as we personally examine it. It has the ability to imagine future actions and exert energy (will) to achieve those actions. This is what even the legal system is built around. It is only science that denies it preferring to transfer responsibility from individual minds to some mystical Laws of Nature (which is nothing more than old time Paganism).

There is no dualism. The mind exerts its own energy as a wave. Try it out. User your mind to move your legs or feet. It works.

Moreover what is the definition of will? — bahman

Will is energy that the mind applies to move the body in a specific manner. Outcomes are unpredictable because of innumerable constraints. The legal system recognizes all of this. Only science refuses to recognize mind and its ability to exert will. Quite an amusing situation I would say.

It does provide a definition of free will: "to have free will is to have one's will be responsible for one's actions". — Michael

What people have are choices in direction of action that are constrained. The legal system actually had it about right differentiating between premeditated actions and actions that are spontaneous (instinctual), though it is darn difficult for a jury to determine almost all of the time. Yet, the basic understanding is sound. Free will is a hopeless phrase created by philosophers for bantering purposes. It has no value and never had.

OK. Determinism isn't true, so no reason to discuss it. There are more pressing issues that deserve attention.

What did you explain? It just happened? Some particles interacted and Voila! existence? And particles and interactions? The Big Bang Genesis)? Where do they come from? As I said, Determinism is a religion. It is just the same story told for eons with different words and to understand this gives one insights into how religions develop. It is part of the human journey.

To leapfrom matter interacts with energy to the whole universe and everything we feel and experience is what is called faith. You want this story to be taken seriously, then start being serious and don't expect me to get excited over every story that people can make up.

You have to fill in the Huge blank between "matter interacts" and EVERYTHING. Even the Bible had more than this. Basically the story is the Laws of Nature did everything as opposed to God did everything. Nice story.

So matter interacts with matter. Ok. And the rest of the story, I mean the whole story... pure, unadulterated story telling, of the most creative type. Determinism is a testament to modern myth creation. In a thousand years they'll be studying it as the Greek Gods are studied.

You want me to take the story seriously? Ok, I realize all religions want to be, demand to be taken seriously. The Laws of Nature are sacred. Everything depends upon believing in them and all that they (He) can do.

Except that our deepest theories of reality are deterministic, — tom

There is only one deep theory about nature and that is QM which is totally probabilistic. Other than this, you have the Laws of Nature which is not a theory but a Pagan God.

You don't know the first thing about QM. — tom

It's a probabilistic wave. Period.

Matter interacts with other matter and energy. — SonJnana

And that is about it. The rest is a magical mystery tale, conjured up by atheists so that they have their own God to worship. It is really quite amazing to observe. Basically it demonstrates that everyone needs their own God whatever the name they choose to use.

However, the type of determinism that really exists is quite different! — tom

The biggest problem with determinism it's that there is absolutely zero evidence for it. Other than that, it is a nice story of how the Laws of Nature (God) determines everything.

The biggest contribution that QM has had on philosophy is that it finally put to rest the possibility that there could actually be a deterministic universe.

Although you don't understand how determinism works in Reality, it doesn't matter, because those who deny Free Will because of determinism, but advocate Evolution, don't either. — tom

The Laws of Nature act in mysterious ways and it is not for us to understand them - not that understanding had any meaning anyway.