Since the word philosophy didn't appear in your previous post "this" didn't seem to refer to it but to the discussion. — Benkei

What else could we be possibly talking about? The name of this forum is called The Philosophy Forum. It is a forum for ordinary people talking philosophy. The content will be philosophical.

Even so, the point stands, you're the one getting emotional, not me, so you're undermining your point through action. The fact that I say it is emotional doesn't preclude content, so you're attributing a position to me that isn't mine. Apparently you need an adversary but I'm not him. — Benkei

No, I don't need an adversary, you made a statement and I responded. That is three times now you have pretended I - me, the personal me - is doing something that she is not, falsely attributing emotions to me, which is nothing more than an ad hominem and your way to justify a non-argument. Your imagination precludes the very problem and you set the standards because your so-called "decorum" is to make your little bourgeois idea of forum etiquette suitable for enough for you.

Your etiquette? Your decorum? Like starting a forum post and writing this?

On suicidal thoughts. "Don't have them."
Fuck normal people. "Fuck you too." — Benkei

Wait, didn't you say:

As to the standards, I've already said forbearance and compassion. If that's too vague for you I can't help you. — Benkei

Right. So, it's ok for you to start a thread and say that, but we - us little people - must show, what, you forbearance and compassion?

Quite obviously it isn't despite your repeated attempts to try to make it so. If it was, your condescension would be absent and emotions wouldn't be rising to a boiling point when all I'm suggesting is a bit of forbearance on the one hand and compassion in the other. — Benkei

Quite obviously? Ok, wait, I said:

This is about content, not about emotion — TimeLine

And you said:

Quite obviously it isn't — Benkei

Gracious, so now philosophy is not about content, but about emotion? Whilst at this stage the only emotion I am conveying is laughter, if it is obvious, then why is stating the obvious so difficult for you?

I am not at "boiling point" by the way and that is merely your imagination projecting notions of what I apparently appear to be, hence the point of being relative. A person from some part of the world who has a different culture to you, that may be young, that may view cursing as a normal part of their day-to-day, may attempt to convey a philosophical point - albeit does so differently and with difficulty - should not be excluded because they fail to articulate themselves with "decorum". You should be smart enough to read through that and see what it is they are trying to articulate.

There's also a difference between defending a person's right being a dick and having a preference that he doesn't act like one. I might have the right to call you a cunt but let's not pretend it's preferable. — Benkei

You still have not answered the question. What is this decorum? You can call me a cunt and I can get offended but I will still defend your right to say that; but to say that all women are cunts and articulate justifications for it is a different story. What more do you want? How far does it need to go in order to please you?

IF the rules state "don't pick your nose" but you continually belch, you've met the decorum required by regulation but it's not a very high standard. I suggest we should aim higher even if we won't enforce that higher standard. In this particular instance I think giving more due to how others receive your words would be better and would lead to a more effective communication. I've tried to illustrate this before with how Martin Luther King would communicate if he'd been "frank" and not take how people receive his words into account: "racism should stop." Instead he started with "I have a dream..." and painted a picture of the future that resonated with others on an emotional level. That's effective communication. — Benkei

Notwithstanding the condescension coming from me towards longstanding forum members such as yourself, but you can take your high standard and gently place it in a little box, gift wrap it and send it via post back to yourself. So, what if the rules were that all TPF members are equal, but some are more equal than others?

This is about content, not about emotion. I personally meant none of that about Tiff but it was my attempt to convey the freedom we should have to speak as we are and show more relativity to the art of communication. I have been attacked by members here and have been approached by mods asking me if I want some support and I have refused because I will defend tooth and nail their right to speak with condescension. As I said, the only time moderation is necessary is when there is a clear demonstration of this "racism" where incitement is visible. How people respond on an emotional level is irrelevant.

The guidelines and rules are to enforce a minimum level of decorum. Certainly you can do better than that? — Benkei

Define "decorum" - is it the same decorum the pigs decided it to be in Animal Farm?

I personally don't think you're a very effective communicator and it stems from the fact that you think you don't need to take other people's feelings into account when expressing yourself but expect them to accept the way you express yourself. — Benkei

I personally think he is. What happens then?

It wasn't that long ago that I began to feel a condescending attitude being expressed lavishly over myself and other longtime members and asked politely in thread to tone it down, which was met with more of the same condescending attitude and I walked away from the thread instead of resorting to what is happening here. Within 24 hours, on a completely different thread, my post was met with another snarky reply directly to me. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Who are you to say "longstanding member" as though you have some sort of entitlement over everyone else? I have never enjoyed reading anything that you write and whether I consider you to often say inappropriately oblique comments nuanced with a form of moral superiority or whether I think you are superficial, all I do is simply avoid you.

Is this too snarky for you? Are you going to complain?

Freedom of speech is a symphony orchestra and not some random person playing the xylophone in the corner of an obscure city street. Any regulation is only necessary when it clearly demonstrates incitement to discrimination or hatred, and not when you feel like there is some condescension.

I don't understand this at all. — Noble Dust

Forgiveness is nothing but a word that attempts to convey hope, a desire for the other to acknowledge either their wrongs or your pain, the latter of which is there - as in, why we feel the burden of pain - because of the lack of empathy, the lack of concern for your humanity, for you as a person. It is pretty straightforward, really.

Where did you find this faith? — Noble Dust

Responsibility.

Oh it was just while walking in Aussie land, she found it lying on the ground and just picked it up you know ma dawg? :D — Agustino

Aussieland? Dude, I found it in Bethlehem. Fo shizzle.

Everyone everything I see just pisses me off, it really wears me out, and sometimes even to a point where I can't live comfortably with it, but it's mercy, compassion and forgiveness I lack, not rationality. Well, not yet. — Cynical Eye

I work closely with disadvantaged young girls and they often present me with similar emotions that you have attempted to convey here, but the rage is being directed or expressed for the wrong reasons. I have met with families and can see the psychological abuse, whereby some of these girls are told that they are 'bad' or 'wrong' when in actuality they are not, in addition to the opinion that their parents are always correct. Conversely, these parents being in a disadvantaged position have absolutely no idea what they are doing and believe that taking a negative approach and being authoritarian is the only way to approach parenting. Together, they formulate the assumption that if a parent tells their child that they are bad that it must be the truth. So, subconsciously these girls know that they are not 'bad' or 'wrong' but they also believe that a parent is always correct and in their confusion become emotionally distressed. When they become emotionally distressed, they need to release it in some way and we each of us do it in various ways; some start to fight with others or get angry very quickly, others cry and take pity on themselves, some become sexually promiscuous but they are all essentially doing the same thing. They are all trying to say that they deserve to be loved.

There is nothing wrong with you, you are just learning about being yourself or finding what is important to you and not what you have been taught. There is nothing wrong with the world around you or the people in it either, you are just expressing your confusion and projecting it to them. You need to find the root causes of this distress and see it objectively. Your parents, for instance, are just normal people or what you were taught to be gospel as a child may actually be wrong or at least unsuitable to what you want to do with your own life. Whatever that conflict is, you need to have the courage to find it. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk. ;)

Since I work as self-employed and my work tools are the computer, spending time here is just... natural. lol. — Agustino

Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. You are here because you want to be here. You can bullshit to yourself to try and justify your original position, but you are doing a poor job of it.

Well, I am trying to engage you in showing you that it's not words that are ultimately relevant. If you care about life - your life first and foremost - it's not words that matter. — Agustino

So, are you saying that after more than seven thousand posts and your considerable amount of hours that you have spent on here mean that you don't care about your life?

How can one execute without reading all those books.

Not really. Rational thought and careful planning is spending time doing nothing so that every once in awhile you get a good idea about what you should do - then you implement it. Most people can't stand 'wasting' time like this though - they get bored and quit. — Agustino

What "most people do" is not the point, it is distinguishing what "careful planning" is to you and if you say that reason and rational thought are pointless, careful planning is impossible. You are not articulating your adequately, on the contrary continuously escape from justifying your position and you can say, "well, who cares" but ultimately all that is is a blatant disregard for me as a person trying to have a conversation.

You have to do your best, but success isn't within your hands. — Agustino

So, where does this "careful planning" come in when you are trying to do your best? You are clearly not articulating yourself correctly, considering that careful planning is reason and rational thought and not Lady Fortuna. How crazy you sound does matter, because it ameliorates your state of mind and that would render concerns for how your "careful planning" or "doing your best" would manifest itself. To say that your interpretations of the external world are irrelevant and yet somehow believe that you can climb Everest only because of luck fails to acknowledge the mutually compatible combination of determinism and exercising your free-will.

It is a thing called consciousness.

Yes. Luck, careful planning, laser-like focus. Meaning is not created, it is given. — Agustino

So you need luck and careful planning? And, careful planning is... luck? So, how we interpret the fundamental nature of reality, of knowledge and of existence that we believe in is given by Lady Fortune?

Do you realise how crazy you sound?

I see, and thinking that man is a straw dog or a puppet will fill your heart and give your life meaning? Where do you think meaning is understood and articulated? From luck? If you cannot ascertain the importance of your mind to your soul and sneakily try to draw in other people' arguments to justify your own, which is a rather unworthy tactic, then so be it back to you.

Sorry, Agustino. I don't have time for one-liners with zero intellectual substance.

Interesting. I could build a similar story, but lately, I don't feel the need. It's pointless - the gods give, and the gods take away. All else is just story-making that doesn't change anything.

You survived - who cares what this revealed to you if anything? It wasn't in your control. To look back and say "oh I wasn't really truthful to myself then" - so what? It doesn't change anything. Your life still remains as it is. Your destiny isn't self-made, but given - by Fortune, both the good and the bad. — Agustino

For a start, I am happy with one God. We have moved on rather substantially from the ancients and it seems somewhat contradictory that - what with Tyche or Fortuna - you seemingly appreciate the very "story-making" that you oppose. Secondly, it is articulating your own story, which is merely learning how to use reason and common sense, to apply yourself correctly. My life is the sum of a sequence of choices, there is no plan given to me where reason and rational thought is involved. Without the latter, I am non-existent.

I care what this revealed to me because I became conscious of how such terrible things occurred because I allowed it to and it gave me the capacity to visualise the temporal sequence of events that lead to that in order to learn to prevent that from occurring again. It gave me a sense of duty, taught me to honour virtue, and made me incredibly happy. I do not sit there and go "meh, its all Fortune" but I make it so because I exist.

I was going to get philosophical, but I felt that this was more a personal expression to a degree and I respect that.

I went ahead and bought some 'back to basics' books I relied on upon heavily in the past. The single most influential book that gave me sanity in face of adversity and trials, has to be Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It's more of a 'man's' book if you get what I mean. — Posty McPostface

That is actually a great idea. The first time I was introduced to philosophy was when I was around 14 and I had a dodgy, second-hand The Last Days of Socrates that I read as I travelled on the train to the countryside. I just remember being blown away by some parts of it, as though it helped articulate pre-existing thoughts that I couldn't explain but it was already there. I may just do the same, reflect on how much things have changed since then. And yes, I get what you mean; honour, loyalty, things that have escaped contemporary versions of 'man'.

I figure, I learned some lessons and will return to my old stoic self. Being a stoic is comforting and helps me rise above this malaise I am professing in the OP. I don't want to end up hating being around people if that is not already something I feel as if what is becoming a reality. Though there is a small amount of some self-centered narcissism being professed here, I must add. So to speak, 'look at me' I don't care about what you care about, and I feel better about myself because of that. — Posty McPostface

Learning from mistakes is a gratifying experience because it enables progress and hating people around you is really projecting a hatred for yourself and on the contrary your desire for others is the actually self-centered narcissism though it may not appear that way; the desire to be connected to people that do not live up to this expectation causes this hatred. It is taking a responsibility, really, and this 'want' is often virtuous, moral in nature, to improve and do better for the right reasons. It is like Emerson said, that moderate balance between the individual who refuses to conform but who is nevertheless concerned with and a part of society; to spend time discussing moral concerns of a social and political nature, before going home and thinking about how you can improve. It is that balance.

Feeling as though through the years, that the only person I can really count on is my mother and closest family, everything else seems like a (excuse my language) fucking joke or facade, which really makes me (ferment?) inside. — Posty McPostface

You will come to find the compassion when you take responsibility for yourself, to count only on yourself and you will see most people conform because they become absorbed by their environment and it is their environment that is fake and superficial; they conform because they too desire the same camaraderie. You can indulge in the anger, as though you are trying to wake them from their slumber and indeed when you think of vicious 'honour' killings, I hardly think having a conversation with them will inspire such change, but in the end it is a broader systemic problem that takes advantage of this innate weakness in humanity. When you take responsibility for yourself and find that independence, you inspire both antagonism and deep affection (I have anyway) where there are those that try their best to defend tooth and nail the idea that conforming is a must that you are an 'enemy' of this, or deep affection because they are aware that something is wrong and you epitomise the independence that they want themselves but fail to know how to apply it practically.

I want to be good; but, if people don't reward people who are good, then what's the point other than some sense of elevation above other people? Dare I say, is being a good person also stems from a desire to feel superior to other people? Hard to say... — Posty McPostface

Be good for the Form itself, for the principle, the honour that Aurelius speaks so highly of because if your intention to do good is only because people like that or want that then it is not genuine but another attempt at pleasing others. Separate yourself from others and find the desire or will to improve in and for itself.

Anyway, glad things are working out for you in the best. I've given up on college. I want to see how low I can go before life forces something on me to do or maybe fall in love, haha. Now, I just sound pathetic. A philosopher's life I guess? — Posty McPostface

The pursuit of love is the greatest of all pursuits. It is pathetic and highly narcissistic if you choose to avoid real love, but the attempt or pursuit begins with friendship. Learn to be friends with others while finding that philosophical independence [which is to learn how to give love, to understand and feel empathy] but don't forget to live in the meantime. It is to be morally worthy, loving, and content but all with a genuine and conscious will.

I guess this passage really expresses the malaise I feel.

8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well.

Epictetus, Enchiridion. — Posty McPostface

I recently sang the Beatles' Let It Be when I went camping and I made a guy cry even though I don't have a great singing voice. I view the world exactly as the lyrics portray.

I feel alienated, but mostly from myself, my real self and the alienation stems from a natural desire to feel some kinship with those around me, ultimately suppressing the person that I am. As an example, if you have bad people around you, you have to act tough to protect yourself even if you are non-violent. It was not until several years ago when I met the worst sort of people that enabled a consciousness of the vanity of such a desire and when I nearly passed away after an accident and all on my own, I realised that I failed myself.

While I have spent so much time just trying to recover that horrible experience, I have recently had an epiphany that I am a culmination of choices that are leading to what I deeply want most, which has always been to fight injustice. I studied a masters in human rights law, I am working with disadvantaged women and children, I write on a blog, all leading to this created 'destiny' where it is my plan and dream to work in international human rights and write a novel. I applied for my first international post last week and I no longer have writers block.

There is a part of me that is telling myself to enjoy, have fun, relax because I feel like the time for serious is coming soon enough. This 'serious' is basically no longer dividing myself between two worlds, but quite simply being myself in this world and letting go of that desire which causes that alienating feeling. The more independent I become, the less desirious I am of others and the really odd thing is that by doing so I am attracting better people, company that I enjoy. To focus on yourself, on building virtue and a good character, you find wholeness and a peace that is good for you in so many ways.

Virtual heckler... congrats, you succeeded hissing on a philosophy forum. :-}

Platypus is a mammal and it has laid an egg is better.

Three. So, you just screwed a comedian.

At least women can screw in a light bulb. You, unfortunately, would be standing there holding the bulb waiting for the world to revolve around you.

From what I remember, isolated existential statements contain a universality and sometimes can add context or meaning to a statement that changes the falsifiability and thus make it scientific. On it's own, however, it cannot be anything but unfalsifiable, a type of broad metaphysical meaninglessness, but it can be given meaning when we remove this isolation by applying it to something specific. So, "some mammals lay eggs" can be falsifiable if we think about a platypus.

Why am I not surprised? There has never been any doubt you are smart. Given that you'd rather have the sandwich, you might even be smarter than I — T Clark

It's "smarter than me."

That is why I disagree that philosophers are at a disadvantage. At the very least, they have the aptitude to access the local philosophical supermarket.

Come now, surely our existential position and the very vanity itself is ultimately one giant joke. That is why he too felt nausea, but there are little flashes of sun on the surface of a cold, dark sea. Courage, the courage to be free and to laugh at it all.

On a side note, I actually think this is not true, particularly if we take an existential approach where Sartre will say that all we need is the courage to create our own purpose, what helps you overcome the despair that knowledge awakens.

I don't want to breathe, but I would really like a sandwich.

I'm smart.

Wisdom is not in vain, but knowledge alone is. Depending solely on your own understanding and capacity to achieve wisdom is vain. — Lone Wolf

If you think you have articulated yourself well enough with the above statement, then all the best bouncing off clouds with Tori Amos.

I know, I saw your sexy pegs in your condescension of my yoga moves, but there are other reference points to work on; I find at our age, it is not achieving exterior physical perfection apart from maintaining a healthy body weight. Blood tests, for instance, last year showed I had low HDL, T-Protein, Iron and dangerously high levels of ALT that I worked on changing (among others) because it was mostly dietary, which was linked to my emotional state. I walked large distances for work, because I needed the money to survive and had no car, that only fuelled the weight loss. Aside from that, the conditions in my environment were changed where I expelled all the negative people - despite me caring or even loving them - from my life and planned for things that I wanted in the future, which enabled me to escape that existential non-temporality.

I am now unapologetically at peace and content and I found a natural balance between happy and sad, but I still feel like there is just a bit more to go. I have spent so much time focusing on this recovery that now I am almost recovered, I am provoked to focus on what comes next.

Good on you, Wosret (Y)

Therefore, it is true you cannot have wisdom without some knowledge. The point I made was that knowledge without wisdom (which is entirely possible) is vain. — Lone Wolf

If you want people to understand what you are attempting to convey, then don't say things like depending solely on your own understanding and capacity to achieve wisdom is vain.

I totally agree, this actually happened to me and only just recently recovered. There was inflammation of my liver and salivary glands that is provoked by stress, but last year my weight dramatically dropped to 47kg after the accident because of this hurt that I refused to eat anything but fruit and drink soup. I had such incredibly low levels of protein, lean mass and fats that protect the organs that my doctor was like how are you even walking? I slowly - this year actually - started eating again, because I faced what it was that was hurting me in order to recover and the increase in protein and regular exercise - gym, yoga etc - now puts me at perfect weight and no inflammation at all.

That is a condition we can never escape, hence why I said death is, to a degree, a type of consciousness enabling us to distrust. As Dasein exists in the background of an existential nothingness, angst - the very fear - is the genesis where 'man' without temporality is born and where we presuppose this as 'truth' in what becomes the initial error. All we can do is distrust this trust.

Wisdom is not in vain, but knowledge alone is. Depending solely on your own understanding and capacity to achieve wisdom is vain. — Lone Wolf

You cannot attain wisdom without knowledge; wisdom is, to a degree, what Aquinas said: love takes up where knowledge leaves off. So, your algorithm here is problematic.

I grant it may not be useful to have gone off on this tangent with Agu. I didn't intend to distract from the practical side of this issue. — Baden

He has that effect.

This thread exposed something that is wrong within me. I just finished an application for an international post in human rights working with children in a developing country. I think I am reaching a point - I'm not there yet - but I am reaching it, of a radical reformation within myself. I feel like I have been on a tangent for long enough. It is time to focus on the practical.

Wisdom is what I have been searching for all my life, whether within me or an example in another, so are you saying that this search is in vain?

Knowlege without wisdom is vain, hence the sorrow also is vain. — Lone Wolf

That doesn't make sense. Knowledge without wisdom is sorrow, with wisdom, we recognise the sorrow is vanity, because knowledge is vanity, because wisdom is. I think. All I know is ignorance is bliss. Maybe.

No, not working for me. What makes you trust your own eyes?

That one dies one's own death seems at least as central. The "they" can talk their talk, but I swim that last lap radically and beautifully alone. Death "individualizes Dasein down to itself." It opens up Dasein's absolute groundlessness. We exist against a background of the nothingness from which we emerged and to which we must return. From when to when is the how. The life given to us in its radical specificity is the unique ground of our finite possibilities, finite because we know that they are always already closing down. — t0m

I am still having a hard time with this but I am starting to see what I could not see last night. My problem of this individualisation that emerges from Dasein is whether the latter is an actual completeness or whether there is a pathology to the concept or form itself, that ultimately we do not actually escape the content that underlies this groundlessness (perhaps even epistemically). From a Kantian angle, for instance, all that is left is the form of Good, but what this means is that we reduce our actions into this moral locus that we assume to be universal. Carmen, I think, is spot-on because of the fact that it must be a demise of these possibilities.

And Kudos to you for thinking through the "why" she did what she did and how you handled it would have ramifications that might just feed the dysfunction at home, that leaves her searching deeply for validation of feelings of love outside of her family. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It is the ethical responsibility towards those who are at a disadvantage; children, persons with a disability, most human rights abuses exemplify this lack thereof and it is why here in my state in Australia, we legislatively have enforced the Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities that confirms human rights and freedoms vis-a-vis responsibilities as not being mutually exclusive.