So why do you continue to say that sex is scientifically the same as gender? It's not — Wolfy48

Because gender describes the societal and cultural differences between the sexes. It doesn’t mean a man becomes a woman. This is now law in my country. The madness has been curtailed.

They are male or female. I have responded to Michael on this, harking back to plenty of further support I've given earlier in the thread. — AmadeusD

I’m happy to stand corrected

I don't think that's what he's saying, but if he is, he is just as entitled to hold that belief as you are entitled to hold yours. — Wolfy48

No he isn’t and the earth isn’t flat either

Again, I fear you are confusing sex assigned at birth with gen — Wolfy48

I’m not confusing it at all. I’m saying your grafting on some meaningless nonsense is just that.

“Maybe you should. You missed off the 500 cases comment. You think sex is a spectrum?

How is it misogyny, and how is it nonsense? — Wolfy48

Eradicating the biological and social aspects that are unique to females. Total misogyny. Some airy fairy statement about comportment is flakey nonsense. I assume you are on a wind up.

So no, having a vagina does not make you a woman. Choosing to comport and express yourself as a woman is what makes you a woman. You could argue that Sex Assigned At Birth is what makes you a woman, but a large amount of people would disagree with you on that, so why hold so tightly to opinion that does nothing but offend, hurt, and de-validate others? — Wolfy48

This is terrible misogyny. Also, utter nonsense.

Why is it certain — Wolfy48

Because there are only two sexes. Male and female

I suppose the rational counterargument would be: ridiculously rare genetic abnormalities aside, how does that change a thing? — Outlander

It certainly isn’t a spectrum like some claim.

As I see it, beauty is a part of good, the part that is perceived by our senses. When we say that the sunset was beautiful, we are saying that the sunset looked good. When we say that the symphony was beautiful, we are saying that the symphony sounded good. When we say that the sex was beautiful, we are saying that the sex felt good. Beauty is sensible goodness. — GregW

A serial killer could see beauty when his hands are around the neck of a victim taking their last breath?
There is a savage beauty in an apex predator despatching it's prey.

Sometimes, there is truth in simplicity. — Martijn

It also means you don't miss your bus.

I suppose that depends on how you interpret gender ;D — Wolfy48

This is the nub of the issue. The term seems to have been hijacked.

And I identify with the gender of femboy, therefore giving me my Gender Identity. — Wolfy48

Is femboy a gender or just a description of a type of man?

Basically I'm a guy who likes to be a little girly at times — Wolfy48

Which is perfectly fine. A man can be whatever he wants. It is the gender component that I see as problematic. The term that was used to explain societal differences between the sexed has been hijacked imho. A feminine man is still a man. It makes no difference to the world except in sport and women’s exclusive places. Which should be based on biology. Not what someone feels.

, Gender is based on how an individual interprets gender, — Wolfy48

What does that mean? How do you interpret your gender?

so they dress and act in a way that they see as more feminine — Wolfy48

Surely that is an extremely outdated view of what it is to be a woman. How does gender identity women dress and act? Is a woman who likes masculine pursuits and clothes a different gender even if she thinks her gender is female?
I find the concept extremely odd and old fashioned.

I do believe that Gender Identity and what you are assigned at birth are not the same thing — Wolfy48

How does gender identity manifest itself? A man (biologically) feels his gender is female. What does that mean?

Amplification would have been an issue. Some of Bach’s piano works are pretty out there,

So it seems the discussion here also concerns among the rape issue. . . gender neutrality, equality, and equity. Your opinions on the matter only seem to support the notion that we are inherently not ready as a society for gender neutrality even though we are moving in that direction. — substantivalism

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Any actions that prevent anti social, coercive and violent behaviour are to be welcomed and encouraged. However, we have to deal with society we live in and its cultural norms. These norms can change dramatically very swiftly. 20th century was such a time.
Who we are is dependent upon many factors and I think social factors and the “village” are a dominant influence. I’m in UK and whilst it has changed a lot there are still some strong strands of thought and behaviour running through society.
In UK most people can say, do, dress how they like. It is wonderful. There are pockets where this may not be the case but on the whole we are an okay tolerant bunch. So men and women are free to pursue their lives as they wish.
However, there are some areas where women are at a disadvantage and there needs to be some measures put in place to allow women to live a full life.
Sport is obvious and I cannot see how anyone can object to women being allowed to compete exclusively with other women.
Also, places where woman are vulnerable and uncomfortable (in our culture) changing rooms, bathrooms, refuges, lesbian dating sites etc and men need excluding.
Society in uk is pretty good at allowing women to prosper and lead full lives (there are challenges) but society should still allow for personal choice. Most of my mates are blokes and I drink pints. My choice is not gender neutral. It is changing, the youngsters are much less rigid in friendships and that is great but until society has eradicated the problems women face they need certain parts of society to be male free.
I cannot see what is controversial or inconsistent with my stance.
A man can be a trans woman but they are still male. They can do anything a woman can because women can do anything they wish. However, they are men and should be excluded from women’s exclusive places for the reasons I’ve outlined.
We are living in a time where access to knowledge, comfort and a world of exciting possibilities but happiness seems to elude so many people. Philosophy should have the answers but no one wants to listen.

Given that some human has ovotesticular syndrome caused by 46,XX/46,XY chimerism, what is the biological feature that either makes them a male or makes them a female? Of particular relevance are those with bilateral ovotestis and/or streak gonads, as well as ambiguous genitalia. — Michael

Actually that was interesting to research. I will no longer state all individuals are either male or female. Some are mosaic 46,XX/46 XY

500 affected individuals have been reported to date.

Men with ovotesticular DSD have azoospermia and usually display a Sertoli-cell only pattern on histological examination of the testes. Therefore, fertility is very unlikely, even with assisted reproductive techniques. Leydig cell function tends to decrease over time, and testosterone suppletion is necessary in most adult men. Normal menstrual cycles, and possibly fertility, have been observed in some women with ovotesticular DSD and conserved ovarian tissue and a uterus; however, many women develop oligo- or amenorrhea and families should be counseled about the likelihood of infertility (Boucekkine et al., 1994; Verkauskas et al., 2007). Although historically most individuals with ovotesticular DSD have been raised as females, scarce data on psychosexual function suggest an equal or even better outcome in males (Verkauskas et al., 2007).

But they are either male or female. They aren’t both.

It’s an interesting subject.

It's not logically consistent to base a policy of disbarring people from women's spaces on women being disturbed by the physical presence of men and then base entry to those spaces not on physical characteristics defining such presence but ultimately on something that can be entirely unseen like chromosomes. — Baden

It would be based on physical characteristics in the vast vast majority of the time. It is obvious who is male and female unless a lot of money is spent on synthetic hormones and surgery. I would speculate it would be still possible to give the correct sex of the person.
If there are a few anomalies then so be it.

How (philosophically) does a male (if there is such a thing since it’s a spectrum) become a woman? It isn’t how they dress, what they do for a job, what they watch/consume etc. so what is it?

Have you details of a person who is both male and female?

Well, it's culturally dependent — Baden

100%. If there were no cultural issues then there would be no issues in men and women sharing spaces. However, there are issues.

How does a trans woman’s womanhood manifest itself?
This is something that I find puzzling. Can anyone explain?

There is no person ever that is a bit of both. Not one. Sex is binary.

Challenged on what basis? Physically, a trans man---who you must want to be in women's bathrooms because you claim they are women due to their biological sex---can easily look more like a man than a trans woman, so it can't be a physical basis because that would contradict your exclusive focus on biological sex. — Baden

I’m not bothered in the slightest where a trans man goes. Preferably the men’s room. Most of them will want to go to the men’s room. However, if a trans man wishes to use the female restroom they would be allowed as they are female.

Men don’t routinely go in women’s spaces and will be challenged by women if they do. Hopefully, then arrested and prosecuted. Thankfully, most men respect boundaries regarding toilets etc.

not something that can be objectively police — Baden

It won’t be policed. It will be fine like it has always been done.

Are we really concerned about where people relieve themselves? Or are we really discussing whether the process of transitioning actually changes a woman into a man? — frank

Both. Yes, people should be concerned about the erosion of women’s spaces and no, a man can never be a woman and vice versa.
I’m amazed any rational person thinks otherwise.

I think there is a bit of Handmaid’s Tale vibe from the dismissive attitude to exclusive women’s spaces.

I’ve said before, if someone passes then no one is any the wiser. They aren’t women though. There is more to being a woman than looking like one. Not that very many trans women “pass”

I'm pretty sure that science is against you, and that indeed human biology allows for what appears to range — tim wood

You are incorrect. There is no range.

I think you need to expand on what you mean here. — Christoffer

using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something

Mainly someone.

Depicting violence or recording violence can be art. I was thinking more of deliberate violence being part of a piece of work. Would it be deemed art? I’m no expert and I will defer to people who are.

Violence is a component of something else — Christoffer

But the violence would be part of the piece.

So what is a female? What is a male? — tim wood

Is this a trick question? Your father was a male your mother was a female. Your mother gave birth to you.

Why would you be so dismissive of difference? — tim wood

How am I being dismissive? All these people are either biologically male or female.

You cannot have violence as art, — Christoffer

Why not? Two men in a gallery intentionally have a violent fight. Performance could be art, the blood and sweat left could be art, a video installation of fight could be art. Why not?