Comments

  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    Perhaps until someone builds some more numbers.Banno

    As I understand it, it is somehow provable that there cannot be more numbers than the surreals.
  • God given rights. Do you really have any?
    You don't need a bigger bureocracy telling you that you have the liberty to defend yourself. You should already know it.Gus Lamarch

    Rights say nothing about bureaucracy. Do others have a duty not to punch you in the face? Is it wrong for them to do that to you? Then you have a right not to be punched in the face. That’s all a claim right is.
  • What problem does panpsychism aim to address?
    It says that there is a first person perspectives that is had, but that having that is not mysterious or metaphysically weird, something that only happens out of nowhere when matter arranges into brains. Instead, what’s happening in brains happens out of somewhere, out of something already going on in the stuff brains are made of, and the stuff that stuff is made of, and so on. That what happens is brains is nothing extraordinary on top of what’s already happening everywhere always, except in the ways already accounted for by functionalist theories.
  • What problem does panpsychism aim to address?
    I think there is something different between the claims of panpsychism and functionalism, though?Graeme M

    Functionalism only addresses the easy problem of access consciousness. Critics then ask “but what about the hard problem of phenomenal consciousness?” Panpsychists reply “that’s a trivial general feature of everything, nothing special in need of explanation.” Critics then ask “So my sock is conscious just like I am?” And we reply “no, not just like, but your sock is functionally different from you too. That difference is an easy problem, already answered by functionalism.”
  • Leibniz, Zeno, and Free Will
    Political liberty is not the same thing as free will, of either a compatibilist or incompatibilist sense. Those are three separate things.
  • God given rights. Do you really have any?
    Rights are freedoms that the State allows you to have. We don't need rights, we need freedom to the individual.Gus Lamarch

    Liberty rights are only one kind of right. Just as important are claim rights (your right against being punched in the face, for instance). There are also second-order versions of each, called powers and immunities, and only those have anything to do with government: all the Bill of Rights rights are immunities from government powers, for instance.
  • God given rights. Do you really have any?
    Can’t be given anything by someone who doesn’t exist.

    Also, rights aren’t the kind of thing that can be given, by anybody.

    And an unenforced right doesn’t cease to exist, it just means someone is getting away with dereliction of their duty. Rights would be a useless concept if them going unenforced made them disappear, as they are most useful in appeals against the violation of them.
  • What problem does panpsychism aim to address?
    It [panpsychism] “explains” why my socks and bubblegum are conscious, even though no one thought they were, but it doesn’t explain why the human brain is conscious the way the human brain is conscious, which is what we actually want to know.Zelebg

    Ordinary functionalism explains what is different between human brains and your socks. All that’s left after that “easy problem” is some mysterious metaphysical having of a first person perspective at all, beyond just the third person behavioral differences. Panpsychism simply says that that is not a special thing that mysteriously arises only in human brains somehow; instead it’s a trivial thing that’s everywhere always, and only those functional differences actually make any difference.
  • Natural Rights
    I think claiming duties exist only where a right exists is misguided.Ciceronianus the White

    I didn’t say that, I said the other way around. Rights are analyzable in terms of duties.
  • Leibniz, Zeno, and Free Will
    The causes involved in the process of reasoning. Reasoning is still a causal process.
  • Natural Rights
    As I said, one is obligated (has a duty) to live a particular way--i.e. virtuously--to live according to nature. That doesn't mean someone else has a right to one's virtuous conduct.Ciceronianus the White

    Whenever one has a duty to another person, that other person has a right, specifically a claim right, because a claim right just is a duty owed to you by someone else. (In contrast with a liberty right, which is just the absence of having any contrary duty yourself).

    Maybe not all duties are to other people, but when they are...
  • Leibniz, Zeno, and Free Will
    A reduction in the potency of certain causes, freeing up other causes to be more effective, yes. As I said earlier:

    Having free will does indeed consist in being unaffected by certain things and one’s behavior instead determined instead by other things. Namely, in one’s behavior being determined by one’s practical or moral reasoning (what you think you should do), and other influences having negligible interference in that process.Pfhorrest

    and

    I think the stoic aspiration is to be like that with regard to everything: to be moved entirely by reason, not completely inert, still doing stuff, but unperturbed in that action by the metaphorical winds that would try to blow you this way or that.Pfhorrest
  • Leibniz, Zeno, and Free Will
    As I said, not everything has the same effect on everything.

    A stack of paper may blow away into total disorder under the effect of wind, but a stack of paper bound at the edges like a book may not, instead only slightly ruffling at the unbound edge before settling back to exactly how it was before. The bound stack of paper is not immune to cause and effect; wind just had a different and much smaller effect on it than on an unbound stack.

    The stoic state of mind just comes from binding your pages together, not from being metaphysically immune to cause and effect.

    EDIT to reply to the remaining conversation: like the bound paper, a rock is immune to the effects of the wind, though not in any fancy metaphysical way. But not only inert things like rocks can be so immune. Sufficiently dense animals can shrug off the wind too, while still going about their business actively. I think the stoic aspiration is to be like that with regard to everything: to be moved entirely by reason, not completely inert, still doing stuff, but unperturbed in that action by the metaphorical winds that would try to blow you this way or that.
  • What problem does panpsychism aim to address?
    To many enthusiasts, panpsychism isn't so much an explanatory theory of consciousness, but an Occam's Razor style argument that non-living systems should be considered to have identical metaphysical properties as living systems, on the basis that there is no falsifiable justification for considering their metaphysical properties to be different.sime

    :100: :up: :clap:
  • Leibniz, Zeno, and Free Will
    Everything has an effect, but not everything has the same effect on everything.

    Having free will does indeed consist in being unaffected by certain things and one’s behavior instead determined instead by other things. Namely, in one’s behavior being determined by one’s practical or moral reasoning (what you think you should do), and other influences having negligible interference in that process.
  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    all the other sorts of numbers... except imaginary numbers, but presumably they could be incorporated with a bit of fiddling. A PhD for someone...Banno

    Those would be the surcomplex numbers discussed above, numbers of the form (a + bi) where a and b are surreal numbers.

    And as there are extensions of the complex numbers into more than just two dimensions, hypercomplex numbers including most notably four-dimensional quaternions and eight-dimensional octonions (beyond which they lose most of the properties that make numbers useful as numbers), you can have surhypercomplex numbers like the suroctonions that I mentioned earlier, numbers of the form (a + bi + cj + dk + el + fm + gn + ho), where a through h are surreal numbers and i through o are the imaginary number and the next seven hypercomplex units beyond it.

    (And tetration is the operation after exponentiation, the fourth item in the series {addition, multiplication, exponentiation ...}, hence my joke about "I need to get my suroctonions tetrated").
  • The concept of subjective opinion solves the problem of free will
    I’m not talking about free will vs determinism, but about incompatibilism vs compatibilism. The free will vs determinism argument only applies to incompatibilists, which Syamsu definitely is, and you seem also to be. Compatibilists think that's a false dichotomy.

    Also, I think everyone in this thread agrees that free will exists. Syamsu just wants to talk about what it's like.
  • The concept of subjective opinion solves the problem of free will
    To be fair, the kind of free will Syamsu is on about is weirdly popular in the literature. It’s basically what incompatibilists think free will is about. I think it’s a useless notion, because on that account an electron should be reckoned to have more free will than a human (as it behaves in a less deterministic fashion), but nevertheless it’s definitely something a lot of people care inordinately much about, and have for thousands of years.
  • Computer Programming and Philosophy
    When I fantasize about have double majored in CS and phil (“software engineering” wasn’t a major yet then, and was covered under CS) I imagine I would have tried going into AI as the most obvious application of those two fields together.

    If I were to have triple majored, the third field would have been linguistics, so it’s interesting that that has AI applications too. I see linguistics, philosophy, and information and communication industries generally as sort of the core axis in my map of different endeavors:

    fields.png
  • Computer Programming and Philosophy
    I agree wholeheartedly and wish I had double majored in philosophy and computer science (which I had considered at the time) instead of philosophy and multimedia arts. The programming makes a much more natural match to the philosophy... and would have paid a lot better, too.
  • What problem does panpsychism aim to address?
    Panpsychism is trying to solve the irreducibility of conscious experience by spreading it out through everything so that it's a building block instead of just mysteriously emerging.Marchesk

    :up: :clap:

    Also: same response to basically everything else you’ve said in this thread, which were mostly exactly the things I was going to say.
  • Life’s purpose(biology)
    A purpose doesn’t imply that something was created on purpose. Things that just happen to exist by chance can still be put to a purpose, or serve a purpose.

    A purpose is just what something is good for. So asking what the purpose of anything is, is asking what good can come about because of it.

    That of course depends on some understanding of what makes something good in the first place. Or rather, is the same question in the most abstract: asking what the purpose of anything is ultimately leads to asking what the purpose of EVERYTHING is, or in other words, what is generally good?

    Purpose should not be confused with cause, which has already been adequately explained for life in this thread.
  • Is Daniel Dennett a Zombie?
    Something maybe relevant here: there was an actual experiment done where people wore goggles that flipped their vision upside-down, long enough for them to adapt to that and then be able to do all their normal activities with the upside-down goggles on. When asked at the end whether they were mentally flipping the images right-side-up in their minds and then moving their body normally for a right-side-up world, or changing they way they moved their bodies to suit a world that appeared upside-down, the people said that that distinction did not make any sense to them. Adapting their perception and adapting their behavior seemed like indistinguishable things to them.

    This seems to support the notion that phenomenal experiences are not separable from the functionality they serve a role in.
  • Why are we here?
    Perhaps your recent disenchantment with philosophy is that you're focused on its premises without equal concern for its practical applications. Underlying practical philosophy is the idea that there is a right way to live, and that our flourishing as human beings is possible with right thinking.Frank Pray

    Nah, I’m plenty concerned with its practical applications. My interests started with practical things and then got more and more abstract as arguments about those practical things hinged on more abstract premises, and then more abstract premises to the arguments about those premises, etc. And in the end, the principles I ended up adopting at the very bottom of all that were practical ones, concerned with what the point of doing philosophy even is and how to most effectively go about that.

    But maybe a point of disillusionment is that few people seem interested in following that long chain from the abstract to the practical, instead getting caught up in arguments about meaningless abstractions that don’t go anywhere practical even if someone “wins”, or else intractable arguments about more practical things that can’t be resolved without diving deeper into the more abstract things underlying them.
  • Why are we here?
    No worries from me. I can’t do the split myself, a mod has to, but I think StreetlightX has helped out with that before.
  • What are the most effective philosophies in instilling social values and work ethic in the masses?
    We cannot empower someone just by telling them what to do, even if they are asking what to do to be empowered; for empowerment is not a set of actions but rather a mode of operation of the will. We cannot simply tell them to operate their will in that way either, for there is a bootstrapping problem there; they couldn't do that unless they were already empowered to begin with. Instead, we must somehow inspire them to exercise their will, give them (and even more importantly, show them that they have) opportunity and motive to take the initiative of their own accord.

    The principle vehicle for inspiring other people to pursue goodness, to empower them, is thus to show them, not merely tell them but actually demonstrate in practice, that achieving goods is actually possible, and thus that there is hope for them if they try to do so themselves. At the same time, we must also show them that achieving goods is not a foregone conclusion that someone else will always handle for them without any action on their own part, because if they thought that was the case they would have no motive to try to act themselves. So to that end, we need to point out to them how any authorities on justice that they may be tempted to rely on are fallible, and that without their personal action such authorities may fail, not necessarily catastrophically or globally, but in any particular case, in which cases the individuals involved will need to be ready to pick up that slack and stand up to injustice themselves.

    So we can empower people by doing good by them, helping them flourish, but we must be sparing in our direct help, lest they come to rely upon us, take our help for granted, and deem it unnecessary for them to try to act themselves. Instead, we need to help people to help themselves, to require that they take initiative in trying to pursue their own good, but to stand by and hold their hand while they get a bearing for it, to ensure that their early attempts are successful, and build in them the confidence and skill that they will need to continue pursuing goodness on their own. It will of course take much of such inspiration for such empowerment to stick permanently, and the challenges that we help people to overcome to build that empowerment must start out small enough for them to have a chance of success at them even with our help, but as they become increasingly empowered we can continue to help them tackle still greater and greater challenges, eventually building a momentum of achievement that can continue even without our further help.

    But doing good not only for oneself, but also for others, can also help to cultivate that feeling of empowerment, the feeling that achieving justice oneself is both possible and necessary. So more than merely helping people to help themselves, we can also enlist them to help us help other people to help themselves, with the promise that doing so will in turn empower them, help them learn to help themselves...
    — The Codex Quarentis: On Empowerment
  • Why are we here?
    Should maybe the disgression about Gnomon's philosophy be split into its own thread since some people are still coming to this thread to talk about the original question too?

    @StreetlightX I think you've helped with things like this before?
  • A dumb riddle with philosophical allusions
    Maybe if I had written "the answer to this question is yes" it would have been correct.Sir2u

    Nope. Guess you still don’t get it.
  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    There are certain types of surreal numbers that are complex: s = a+bi , where a and b are infinitesimals:jgill

    Is it not more accurate to say that some surcomplex numbers are surreals, or that there is a complex extension of the surreals?

    Speaking of which, I need to get my suroctonions tetrated soon...
  • What's a term for / examples of "third way" / "synthesis" philosophies?
    Hegelian dialectical history paradigm with phenomenologyEnrique

    I’m not super well educated about continental philosophy, but I don’t see how those are antitheses of each other. Can you explain for me?
  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    For example, I can say, suppose that between every pair of integers there is an integer. If I'm clever maybe I can work out a system on this "rule." But the idea itself is absurd. The "supposed" integers don't exist. So the question is if surreals have this deficient form of conjectural existence, or do they share the more substantial existence of the reals?tim wood

    That rule is self-contradictory, so that kind of “number” can’t exist. But you could define a new kind of number — not the integers — which satisfied a property like that. (The rationals, maybe?) Some of that new kind of number would be equivalent to integers, but others wouldn’t.

    The surreals are like that relative to the reals. And they exist exactly as much as any other mathematical entity exists, which as you say is a can of worms, but we don’t have to go into it here. Whatever kind of existence mathematical objects may have, there’s no reason to exclude the surreals from it.

    The trouble conceptualizing where on the number line they fit is little different from trying to mash the reals in between the rationals. With the rationals you can already find infinitely many numbers between any two numbers, so where do the reals fit? They do though. Same with the surreals fitting in between (and beyond) the reals.
  • Money as a record
    What about inheritance?Isaac

    Or any other form of unearned income.

    This entire project begs the question by basically saying "What if we treat all income as earned income? Therefore everyone deserves everything they get, QED."

    Money is debt: a dollar bill is an IOU. Maybe I owe you because you legitimately did something for me and that's my sign of gratitude or your fairly agreed upon compensation. Maybe I just legally owe you because you had the power to do something bad to me if I didn't agree to owe you. Maybe I owe you because someone with more power than either of us just declared that I do.
  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    Probably. I'm in a rush to get to sleep. Someone will set me straight by morning.
  • Surreal Numbers. Eh?
    As I understand it, the surreals are not only between all the reals, but also beyond them. They are basically the reals, which are all finite numbers, plus also transfinite numbers, and the reciplocals of transfinite numbers, infinitesimals. Basically, in the surreal numbers, you can do "one over infinity" and get something... not quite exactly zero, but closer to zero than any real number. (But then, it's not exactly just "infinity" that you're dividing by either, but a specific infinite, or transfinite, number).

    Also, as I understand it, the surreals are the biggest possible ordered set: every position of every element in every ordered set no matter its size can be represented with a surreal number. There is a particular way of constructing the surreal numbers which is basically equivalent to an infinite process that enumerates every position in an order and every position in between each of those positions and so on and so forth, and in the process of listing out all of those positions, you end up constructing the equivalents of all of the real numbers, but also things that are not equivalent to real numbers, that are in between them and further down the list than any of them. I don't know all the details of that off the top of my head, but I recall it having something to do with building a branching tree of some sort: you start with one element before another, and the other after it, then construct an element before and after each of those, and then before and after each of those, and so on forever. Every node in that tree is a surreal number.
  • What's a term for / examples of "third way" / "synthesis" philosophies?
    Thanks for that recommendation! I’m not clear exactly what two things he is a third way / synthesis of though?
  • What's a term for / examples of "third way" / "synthesis" philosophies?
    Perhaps a term might be....architectonic?Mww

    That doesn’t appear to mean what I’m looking for in this thread, but it is a great word that describes both Kant and another of my favorite philosophers Peirce (who apparently coined the term in reference to Kant), and my own philosophy as well. So thanks for sharing!
  • Which comes first the individual or the state?
    These positions put the individual second to the state, the state being the masses viewed as a single entity that functions and survives as a whole or not at all.Brett

    That's not what the state is, that's what the people is. The state is a monopoly on the use of force. You can have a people without a state, in principle.
  • A dumb riddle with philosophical allusions
    It doesn’t have to be that exact sentence (I actually had in mind a slightly different one), but it’s the “this” that sells it, yeah. The idea is that the original question is an empty infinite loop of self-reference in the form of a question. So the answer to that is an empty infinite loop of self reference in the form of an answer.

    Basically, the answer to “...?” is just “....”.

    “This is the answer to that question.” was my exact version, but things like “This is the answer.” or “This is.” or even just “This.” all have basically the same meaning in context and so are acceptable.
  • Understanding of fact and opinion
    If it helps clear things up, I’m pretty sure Syamsu means more or less “preference” when he says “opinion”. This “fact-opinion” divide is thus basically the fact-value divide.