What you are saying basically: a sane and healthy person needs both food and drugs. Mens sana in corpore sano

47..."Forget this transcendent certainty, which is connected with your concept of spirit."

An eternal soul is an illusion. Fuck Christianity.

I want to understand how the way the eye works and how that corresponds to the sound of a breeze through the leaves of a tree.

You might have missed the scientific paper I mentioned above, which mentions the 'hard problem' in particular connection to what is called the 'neural binding problem'. The paper is here, from which I quote: — Wayfarer

The problem with great minds such as yours and others I have come across on this forum is that their cleverness prevents them from seeing the whole picture. You are like great scientists examining every stone and leaf but still haven't figured out that the world is round.

With my simple mind I stick to the basics but have over the years been able to figure out the large picture even though the details remain obscure to me. With child-like awe I observe the world.

↪ovdtogt
So your ultimate aim is to achieve non-existence?

From eternity I came into madness and to eternity I shall return.

This is nonsense. An individual human body is not both male and female, it is one or the other. A human body is either male or it is female, it is not both.

It is obvious you lack even the most basic knowledge of biology. Your ignorance is to vast to fathom.

2. Hell is the eternal torment by damnation from God. — robbiefrost

We entered Hell the moment we were exiled from the Garden of Eden. This was our separation from God and to Whom we struggle to return.

God is the origin of Life. As life evolved it has moved further and further away from God. Your consciousness is your connection to God. To join God you must release your consciousness which is held captive by your body.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu?fbclid=IwAR3itT5SD3DNlyY8rYX1F-eGNx7DGeRMy1pgOfEB1DJQyKib8wtP1gVXfvw

Sokushinbutsu (即身仏) are a kind of Buddhist mummy. The term refers to the practice of Buddhist monks observing asceticism to the point of death and entering mummification while alive.[1] They are seen in a number of Buddhist countries, but the Japanese term "sokushinbutsu" is generally used.

It is believed that many hundreds of monks tried, but only 24 such mummifications have been discovered to date. There is a common suggestion that Shingon school founder Kukai brought this practice from Tang China as part of secret tantric practices he learned, and that were later lost in China.[2]

urgatory in my philosophy of religion class and the gist of the argument for purgatory is along the lines of Hell — robbiefrost

We entered Hell the moment we were exiled from the Garden of Eden. This was our separation from God and to Whom we struggle to return.

Different thoughts tend to make people angry. If they don't understand, why bother to do it? — Gus Lamarch

It is an attempt to escape loneliness and boredom. To survive I have had to be very selfish and that has left me very few friends. All I have are my ideas to keep me company. And all I am able to share are my ideas.

That might be true, but if we are brains in a vat we will never find out.
— ovdtogt

How does that change anything you do, though? — Possibility

In my moments of heightened awareness I believe that everything we experience is a hallucination and that we possess a everlasting soul that is our consciousness. We merely have to deny our body in order to travel down the path to Nirvana. As our temporal body dies, our soul will be released like a butterfly from a cocoon to join the eternal cosmic consciousness that lies at the root of all life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu?fbclid=IwAR3itT5SD3DNlyY8rYX1F-eGNx7DGeRMy1pgOfEB1DJQyKib8wtP1gVXfvw

Sokushinbutsu (即身仏) are a kind of Buddhist mummy. The term refers to the practice of Buddhist monks observing asceticism to the point of death and entering mummification while alive.[1] They are seen in a number of Buddhist countries, but the Japanese term "sokushinbutsu" is generally used.

It is believed that many hundreds of monks tried, but only 24 such mummifications have been discovered to date. There is a common suggestion that Shingon school founder Kukai brought this practice from Tang China as part of secret tantric practices he learned, and that were later lost in China.[2]

That is the second time you've agreed with me. Not something I am used on this forum. Most here think I am nuts.

Your arguments all sound so circular. rational, reasonable, true, simple, theory, proposition. A lot of words just strung together in incoherent ramblings. No real insight, no vision, no clarity. Most of the time I have no idea what you are talking about.

What is 'my' truth? Whatever I believe, serves my purpose.

↪ovdtogt I don’t confuse the two. — I like sushi

cryptic

"Truth" in reality. - Truth is projected only by the individual's belief — Gus Lamarch

Yes, I would agree with that. In general what we hold to be true is seldom more that a conveniently adopted belief.

BTW all the above has been copy pasted from the article and are not my ideas. Interesting article you might like to read.

Or you just might not be very aware of how you operate. — Brett

I don't think many people are aware how they operate. You have to look deep 'inside' yourself to realize how much of a slave you are to your fears and desires. For most peoples these driving forces operate on a sub-conscious level .

Consciousness is holistic, it manifests as the interaction of all manner of cells and organs as an orchestrated whole which is what 'being' refers to. — Wayfarer

A 1 cell organism has also a 'being'. It is called being alive. Being alive mean being conscious.
To assume consciousness is unique to humans is the height of arrogance and

That attitude is a direct historical consequence of the Christianity.
— Wayfarer — ovdtogt

We do not own consciousness as we are not the center of the universe.

..when would it be ok to believe in a some thing that, is considered absurd, illogical, irrational, etc.. anytime, sometime, never?
— 3017amen

Why would anyone believe something they know to be absurd, illogical or irrational? Do you? — ovdtogt

I don't know many people that believe their existence is absurd, illogical and irrational. Do you?

Your basic position is that consciousness is a "whole body experience". — Pantagruel

Not quite. I believe consciousness is essential to life. No life without consciousness. The 1 cell organism has to be conscious (aware) of it's surrounding for it's survival. Consciousness lies at the root of life. As you add the senses (sight, sound, touch, taste.....) these are all conscious enhancements. Then you get the even higher cognitive conscious abilities and ultimately the self-consciousness that we posses.
It is all part of 1 continuum. From very primal to very complex consciousness.

Beings are conscious, that’s why they’re called ‘beings’. ‘Eyes’ are conscious, they’re organs. — Wayfarer

Eyes are [a] be(ing) conscious of light.

That attitude is a direct historical consequence of the Christianity. — Wayfarer

Which attitude?

Not just the thoughts "Do this. I am doing this. I did this." The whole experience, the actions, the interactions. I think the notion "holistic" works. — Pantagruel

"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves. — Pantagruel

Okay, but which problem does it solve, looking at it 'holistically' that we couldn't solve or understand otherwise?

I would expect a theory or hypothesis to answer a previously incomprehensible issue or unsolvable question.

Why would anyone believe something they know to be absurd, illogical or irrational? Do you? — ovdtogt

Yes. If one believes they themselves exist, they would then believe in the illogical. — 3017amen

So you are saying, to believe you exist is absurd, illogical and or irrational? So you go around telling everyone, you don't exist. When someone you greets you, you say: "Hey man, you don't exist and I don't exist."

Wouldn't a belief require a believer?


Good for a laugh.

Sorry I must be thick because I just don't understand this sentence.

"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves. — Pantagruel

"In other words, our mind is not simply our perception of experiences, but those experiences themselves. — Pantagruel

So when I am hammering in a nail it is in fact my brain that is doing it, not my arms, hands and hammer?

..when would it be ok to believe in a some thing that, is considered absurd, illogical, irrational, etc.. anytime, sometime, never? — 3017amen

Why would anyone believe something they know to be absurd, illogical or irrational? Do you?

The idea that each one of us is a part of a larger whole is the illusion which makes selfishness incomprehensible. Selfishness is the reality though. — Metaphysician Undercover

As usual in these discussion we fail the see the duality of reality. Human character is both altruistic and egotistic simultaneously as the human body is both male and female. Everything is about balance. How far do you lean to the right of the left. Left and right are both part of the same continuum.

It can be hard to see how human prayers could affect what God does. — Teaisnice

8. Therefore prayer is useless — DingoJones

. Wrong...

It is not meant to affect what God does. It is meant to effect what you do.

Show me a human whose brain has been removed that is conscious. I can refer to cases where humans are conscious whilst lacking numerous organs (except the brain). Evidence matters. — I like sushi

The brain may not be conscious. But if the body stays alive, the body can be considered conscious. I think we confuse consciousness with self-consciousness, which is awareness of oneself. This is the highest form of consciousness that we know of but all awareness is consciousness. All life contains consciousness, otherwise it could not survive.

..when would it be ok to believe in a some thing that, is considered absurd, illogical, irrational, etc.. anytime, sometime, never? — 3017amen

Considered by whom?

↪ovdtogt You know that I was arguing in support of position that a belief has a different existential status than a mere claim, right? — Pantagruel

Please put in the quote that you are referring to.

I would argue that there is more to reality than this, and that there is more to these principles than the concepts of ‘energy’ or ‘cause and effect’ describe. — Possibility

That might be true, but if we are brains in a vat we will never find out.

P: We can give our own life meaning by ourselves alone — intrapersona

This would be like saying I can have an enjoyable conversation with myself. It is possible. I think you'd need to imbibe in drugs though.

In Dutch the word 'meaning' is the same as 'desiring'.

So you get the sentence: The meaning of life is the desiring of life.
"De zin van het leven is zin in het leven."

Quantum mechanics providestwo fundamental examples of the duality between position and momentum, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle ΔxΔp ≥ ħ/2 stating that position and momentum cannot be simultaneously known to arbitrary precision, and the de Broglie relation p = ħk which states the momentum and wavevector of a free particle are proportional to each other.[1] In this context, when it is unambiguous, the terms "momentum" and "wavevector" are used interchangeably. However, the de Broglie relation is not true in a crystal.

Without any real quantifiable criteria of "fitness" or "value" too, other than the fact that they spread. — Pantagruel

It is just another form of 'idol' worshiping. As old as religion.

And I can also say I was sleep walking last night and don't remember a thing I said and did. Those instances would suggest another kind of truth. — 3017amen

You can say anything you like. That does not mean you believe it.

I could assert I saw an invisible pink unicorn, an alien from another world, — 3017amen

You could 'claim' you had seen these things only if you had indeed really (imagined) to have seen these things. Otherwise you are just lying.

A claim need not be believed in order to be exist — creativesoul

is just pure nonsense.

So a belief has a different kind of ontological status than a statement simpliciter. — Pantagruel

Only empiricism is able to make a distinction between belief and knowledge.

It's important to consider the simple difference's between objective and subjective truth(s). Some truth's are more subjective than objective, and vise versa. Both are good, depending on the context. — 3017amen

As we will never arrive at absolute truths, we will have to suffice with subjective truths of which some are more subjective than others.

[

That was not a claim. That was a joke.

Of course not, but that is the very point. A claim need not be believed in order to be exist.
— creativesoul
But this was my point. There is a world of difference between a belief upon which you would stake your life, and one that you just cook up. The one you cook up really doesn't qualify as a belief at all, it is just an arbitrary statement. — Pantagruel

Well you just just admitted it was not a claim but a joke.

A joke does not have to be believed to exist.

And what has not proven to be false can for the time being be considered true.
— ovdtogt

Nah. There are some pretty outrageous claims, ones none of us believe, that cannot be falsified. — creativesoul

A claim that no-one believes does not exist. A claim has to be believed by someone to exist. And belief in that claim will persist until that person accepts falsifying evidence.