Hamas will name another leader; the Gaza people are thirsty for revenge. — javi2541997

Are you sure about this? Maybe they just want the war to be over and go back to pre-10/7 life. Hundreds of Hamas surrendered today; I think they're getting sick of it.

Now, if they were on the verge of victory things would be different and I'd imagine they'd be highly motivated rather than think "well we're basically victorious, maybe Israel has had enough. Time to take it easy on them!" It seems that victory emboldens and failure discourages (and this applies to the Jews too). Losing top terrorists is discouraging and possibly interpreted as a sign that God is not with them. In Islamic and Jewish theology it is God who grants victory.

You told me yesterday that around 80% of the population of Gaza is Hamas friendly or associated. — javi2541997

No, I said supposedly a source internal to Hamas said that 80% of the casualties of the Gaza war were Hamas & those close to them. The Palestinians were largely supportive of Hamas but many have become disenchanted after the results of 10/7.

It is pretty dreamy to think that peace comes by killing and destroying. — javi2541997

It sounds strange but this happens time after time in the Middle East. Strength is in that region. God grants victories.

Start with the basic premise: Does the current government recognise Palestine as a sovereign state? No! Right? Then, the conflict will remain. — javi2541997

You are viewing this conflict through a European lens.

I am curious about that. I think 5 were injured last time I checked. Perhaps a mistake? Fog of war? I don't know. I'd be horrified if Israel viewed the blue berets as valid targets alongside Hezbollah.

Learn to condemn murder.

Article is behind a paywall. It's 40/60 on Polymarket. I'd say bet Kamala but US citizens aren't allowed to use the site.

I don't see how Polymarket is anything but a betting market for bettors looking to earn a buck.

In calling the deliberate murder and rape of civilians "legitimate resistance" you only expose your own moral bankruptcy.

If that isn't wrong then neither is genocide.



We saw white flags over Jabaliya after Sinwar's death -- perhaps peace is on the horizon. It appears Israel has finally broke them and peace is at hand. Success emboldens them more than failure.

There is no genocide; only the resurfacing of blood libels when Israel responds to the murder of 1200 of its own and the taking of hundreds of hostages (as any nation would). How dare they react.

Population figures simply do not support the idea of a genocide.

Israeli officials literally just get up on podiums and declare their intention to starve the Palestinians, that rape is ok, that they're animals, that children are just future terrorists and must be killed etc. — boethius

"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty" - J. Goebbels.

Straight from the Goebbel's playbook.

Not a word from you on the widespread sexual abuse of 10/7 hostages and victims as well as the general rape culture that pervades the Islamic world. Not a word from you on the genocidal intentions of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Now go run along and be a good propagandist for the likes of Putin, Assad and Iran. :vomit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9-_nvSbEo8 - New Bibi speech today on Sinwar's death.

tldw two conditions for peace
i) return of hostages.
ii) Hamas lays down its arms and stops fighting.

Imagine if we ever bombed the Basque Country because there were sympathizers who voted for the political party. — javi2541997

A better comparison would be if there was a hardline Islamist party in a province of Spain that sought to conquer Madrid and impose hardline Islamic rule on Spain. In their charter, Hamas insists on capturing Jerusalem and making the land muslim. Hamas leadership repeatedly affirms that all of modern day Israel is "occupied Palestine" -- Muslim land. It all comes down to religion and control. The muslims feel aggrieved because the land was once theirs, but before it was theirs it was the Jewish homeland and the land where Jewish identity was born. And Jerusalem is the Jews most important holy site. (I believe Jerusalem is #3 for the muslims.) Hamas demands what is non-negotiable.

edit: Some muslims have come to terms with Israel's existence and accept it, but many, especially palestinians, do not. I can understand how it's a slight for them though.

Apart from that, what about the 20% left? That's 8,400 deaths. Are they just collateral victims who had bad luck and were in the worst place? — javi2541997

Their loss is tragic but the US killed many more in Afghanistan. Such things happen in war. It is unfortunate that Hamas does not allow civilians into their bomb shelters and hordes supplies.

Whatever. I admire your innocence, Carlos. — javi2541997

I don't think Israel specifically wants to annex Gaza. I can't imagine Hamas staying in power though. It would be like al-Qaeda ruling a region on the US's border and being allowed to stay in power after 9/11.

If Hamas were to release the hostages it would signal a fundamental change in their approach though.

42K innocent people — javi2541997

This number includes Hamas fighters. We'll never know the true breakdown but I've heard some ~80% of that are Hamas/Hamas associates.

It is important to me and a lot of people — javi2541997

It's important to me to since within Gaza there are hostages and they keep killing Jews. Israel has also been conducting polio vaccinations in Gaza.

Yes if Hamas were to release the hostages I'd expect there to be a ceasefire. Gaza is not really that historically important to the Jews,

Release the people who were stolen from Israel and Bibi will stop.

Looks like the IDF got Sinwar :fire: :fire: :fire:

Lived like a rat, died like a rat.

You can say that you're a Hamas/Hezbollah supporter, it's ok. Sure, maybe you think sometimes (e.g on 10/7) they go a little over the top, but you're fundamentally onboard with their purposes. Is it fair to say at least that you're a sympathizer?

Hell, I'll support a side without condoning its every action. The Red Army committed many atrocities but I'll still take them over what they were fighting against.

Zero. There has been no cases where IDF soldiers and/or Israeli civilians went house to house murdering, raping, and torturing Palestinians in a manner comparable to 10/7.

Then why are they constantly flying Hamas and Hezbollah flags at protests and cosplaying as terrorists? Why are they chanting for the same goals as these groups -- namely, the annihilation of Israel? Why are they tearing down hostage posters and desecrating memorials to terror victims? The most straightforward explanation is that they are terror supporters.

The world is going insane. — Benkei

Tell me about it. Never thought I'd see so many westerners out on the streets protesting in favor of totalitarian organizations that rule by hardline religious rule, murder LGBTQ, and suppress women's rights and dissent in what has become a progressive cause. Wokeism has degenerated into support for jihadism & intolerance against the only western, democratic state in the Middle East.

UNIFIL needs to leave. Weren't they supposed to enforce resolution 1701? That clearly didn't happen and the IDF has found Hezbollah tunnels a few dozen meters from their sites. Let the grown ups do their jobs and have the blue helmets go play soldier in another location.

Explain to me how Hezbollah was able to build tunnels (that took years to build and were used to attack Israel) ~100 meters away from UNIFIL. It's impossible UNIFIL didn't know. They've simply neglected their mission and now they're in a warzone that is a direct result of their own failure. Get them out of there.

You can be an anti-Zionist Jew. The logical conclusion of anti-Zionism is the destruction of Israel. You cannot be "anti-Zionist, pro-Israel."

And I'm pretty sure those guys in your vid were excommunicated.

Benkei, the Jews invented the idea. How can they be wrong about what it means? :chin:

Maybe you meant IRA and Hamas? — I like sushi

:up:

In which case I would not agree. The IRA were not genocidal. — I like sushi

:100:

It seems that it is culturally entrenched, if one doubles down on a (violent) strategy that has actually helped make the situation worse, not better. — schopenhauer1

:100:

This scenario doesn't seem to fall at all under the first two which would cause a form of psychosis in the intensity and kind of harm taking place.. It's not enslavement/death camp levels of suffering. — schopenhauer1

There's no comparing Gaza to slavery or a Nazi concentration camp. The question of the slave is interesting: There was the case of Nat Turner, an escaped slave who went on a rampage killing white people in the South. I think most would say this is wrong but there remains sympathy for it in some circles. It is understandable on some level how the oppressed class could harbor such hatred for not only their direct oppressors, but everyone of that group. Still wrong, but understandable. The Gaza situation is obviously far removed from that as you mention. I know of no cases where concentration camp survivors went house to house murdering Germans.

If someone IRL told me that they were "pro-Israel but anti-zionist" I would laugh. Zionism is why Israel is a state. It would make more sense to say "I'm a Zionist but opposed to certain Israeli policies." To say that you are "anti-zionist" is to say that you are opposed to Jewish self-determination. A true "anti-zionist" would seek the destruction of Israel/the loss of Jewish self-determination.

Did my discussion with @ssu fundamentally change your view of me? Really? And is there a certain type of pro-Israel Jew that you do respect?

Keep hand-wringing over Zionist "settler-colonialism" over a tiny sliver of land while ignoring or defending a rapidly growing 1400 year old religious colonialist empire 600x Israel's size.

In any case, follow my discussion with @ssu as an example of how productive & polite discussion goes. I wouldn't even call it an argument.

If the IRA and Palestinians were comparable, that would mean the IRA seeks to conquer England and install rigid Catholic rule. It would state in their Constitution their absolute commitment to conquering London.

For the millionth time, Israel doesn't make the laws or grant the rights in Gaza or parts of the West Bank. Saying "Israel needs to give equal rights to the Palestinians" is like saying the US needs to give equal rights to the Mexicans.

Are partisans not a violent resistance group?

A vassal of the Seleucids up until the Maccabees revolted in ~160 BC leading to the creation of an independent Jewish state under the Hasmoneans from around 150 BC - 37 BC. This is the event behind of Hanukkah. From 37 BC the Jews have their "Quislings" -- the Roman-backed Herodians. The Hasmoneans were no Quislings.

We can go back further. Between ~1000 BC - 586 BC Israelite/Jewish independence was realized up until the Babylonian exile. Even given a sober view of the historical record the history of proud Jewish resistance holds. Israelites fought off Philistines and Assyrians among others to secure their independence. I'm happy to call out propagandistic bullshit when it's present, but I can't in this case.

edit: from 63 bc onwards the hasmoneans are roman vassals.

Violent resistance movements tend to use very comparable methods, that usually extend to acts of extreme cruelty and targeting of civilians. — Tzeentch

Anti-Nazi partisan groups largely focused on weaking German military infrastructure, not going on rape & murder sprees of uninvolved German civilians. I am not familiar with anything comparable to 10/7 among groups persecuted by the Nazis. Being oppressed shouldn't automatically turn one into a complete animal free from all moral considerations.

Rome was the hegemon who controlled Judea & Samaria from the 1st century BC onwards. The land was previously ruled by Jewish powers. I don't see why the success or failure of rebellions against Rome should matter regarding the idea of Zionism -- those revolts were an attempt to re-establish independent Jewish rule in the region.

That vision has existed before and after Roman rule. It a Jewish constant. Whether it's Hertzl or bar Kohkba (or others in between), the goal is 1) Remove foreign hegemons from the land and 2) Re-establish Jewish self-rule. The technology differs, the foreign powers differ, but it's the same essential idea. It comes down to control and dominance. If you would like to educate me about why the Roman empire was not a colonizer then I'm all ears. Even if Rome doesn't fit the exact "modern" sense of colonizer, it remained the hegemon -- the undisputed dominant power in the region.

The history of Zionism has nothing to do with decolonisation. — Benkei

Tell that the Jews who fought the Romans in the 1st and 2nd centuries in order to re-establish an independent Jewish kingdom in the land of Israel. Is that not the basic idea of Zionism?

Whether it's hertzl dreaming of decolonizing Israel from the Ottomans or bar Kokhba's followers dreaming of decolonizing Israel from the Romans it's the same basic idea. Hertzl was just a relatively (secular) revival of the idea.

Zionism has long been understood as a decolonization movement. Both the Romans and Muslim powers were colonizers of Israel. Under Roman rule there were revolts to establish a free independent Jewish state (as had existed prior) so Zionism is nothing new.

And yes, Mexico is no longer controlled by Spain, Haiti no longer French, etc.

It's interesting to compare. In any case, yes North America was colonized, but it also underwent large-scale decolonization. The idea of decolonizing Muslim lands (e.g. Zionism) is met with mass protests and violence around the world including on college campuses. The West is largely apologetic over its imperialist past, not so with the Muslim world.

Israel is but the tip of a might US dick that penetrates the Middle East from behind. If the penis goes limp can the tip stay in? — boethius

I love how in this metaphor the Islamic middle east is likened to an abused asshole. The greatest & most brutal settler-colonial project in history -- Islamic rule -- is really just a poor helpless orifice used and abused by the US and Israel. But by all means continue as an apologist for brutal authoritarianism and Islamic religious fanaticism. I guess you're one of those "anything to see the West fall" types.

Unfortunately Israel cannot negotiate with those who seek to indiscriminately murder its citizens and take its land in the name of Islam. There already was a cease fire on October 6th of last year.

What do you guys think of the notion of scarcity in cryptocurrency? It is a given that scarcity alone is not value, scarcity is a necessary but insufficient condition of value. — hypericin

At first I agreed with this 100% and this is certainly the traditional view, but then I remembered the sudden rise in dogecoin's value which is the furthest thing from scarce.

Given this, are cryptocurrencies truly scarse? — hypericin

It's not that cryptocurrencies are scarce, but certain cryptocurrencies, like bitcoin, are scarce. The devs determine the supply distribution.

There's no apartheid. Nor do I think you know what a war crime is. Until you learn the facts about the two sides consider yourself ignored. :mask:

The fact that you mentioned the "apartheid" in Gaza means you simply don't understand the facts about this conflict. Nor does it matter that Jews can be oppose Zionism (some do for purely religious reasons). To oppose Zionism is to support a reversion to the old order where Jews were at the mercy of foreign powers and could be stripped of statehood and butchered. No thank you.

Three year olds in a busy urban street? Trust who? Do you just argue to argue? — schopenhauer1

No I just see a logic to certain practices where you don't. Or the parents could just be idiots. Or drug addicts. Not always so easy to pin down the roots of a practice.

EDIT: Seeing children playing in the street or dogs roaming may very well not be culture. A good example of a culture would be the US military. It is also non-theological.

I’m sure a lot of religious practices had no discernible origin and later ideas and stories made it have a backstory — schopenhauer1

Then those ideas and stories are the logic.