"Would" -- it's already there. And what you describe is ironic given that this is what happened to the Palestinians -- imagine a group of people show up and then.... — Moliere

What do you think would happen? Would Jews and Palestinian Muslims hold hands and sing Kumbaya under RoR? Hamas is a democratically elected Islamic fundamentalist sect — the Palestinian vision. I can't avoid the fact that the Palestinians voted them into power.

What happened to the Palestinians is that the Arab world declared war on Israel in '47. Instead of wiping out the new Jewish state, the Palestinians lost and were put to flight as Israeli forces overran their annihilation attempt.

Yes, that's what happens when people suddenly lose control of their political sovereignty/self-determination. Flood a nation of 5 million Muslims living under Sharia with 5 million Hindus and see what happens.

It would be like asking the US to absorb 200 million Muslims.

Regarding RoR:

That's asking for the destruction of Israel. It would be adding roughly 6 million Arab Muslims to the population of Israel, and it would throw the demographic balance off. Ethnic warfare would result. There would be fighting in the streets as the fundamental character of the state is brought into question. No one can demand that a state destroy itself and call it immoral for not doing so.

Also, why such selective enforcement? Where is the Jewish right of return to Iraq? Or Yemen? The Middle East has been cleansed of Jews besides Israel, but there is no demand for "right of return" there.

Suppose they had the means, though. — Moliere

There were armed Jewish resistance groups. They could have murdered, raped, and tortured many civilians because of their nationality, but they didn't. Such behavior is abhorrent.

And suppose it'd been an 80 year occupation. — Moliere

Occupying what? Gaza? Jerusalem?

Because that government has been attacking you in the exact same way, and old cynical men know the piss and vinegar of young men and convince them to in order to get a bargaining chip. — Moliere

Understandable, but a sign of a degenerate society. Even during WWII Jews didn't go around murdering or mass murdering German civilians.

The part that makes me hesitate here is that there were also immediate reports about finding hundreds of beheaded babies.

And then learning that Israeli attack helicopters shot on Israelis.

Sometimes states just say shit to demonize someone they want to kill.

I fear that's part of what's going on. — Moliere

Are you doubting that ~1200 Israelis were killed on 10/7, the majority of whom were innocent civilians? They went from house to house indiscriminately murdering. It's proudly recorded on video.

I remember the second intifada in the early 2000s, where Palestinian terrorists would go into bars, restaurants, and buses full of civilians and blow themselves up. I recall they'd attach unclean material to their explosive devices, so for anyone who got hit with shrapnel, the wound would get infected. It never made sense to me. If you hate a government, why attack random civilians living there? Unless that hatred is much deeper.

This strikes me as backwards.

One can only give aid to the suffering, but if you dare try to resist the movement of weapons to actually prevent the genocide we will take away your privilege of being here.

What about the students who are citizens that put up a similar resistance? Ought we to deport them too? — Moliere

We're not going to agree on this.

When I think "genocide," I think October 7th, when thousands of Palestinians went house to house murdering, raping, and torturing Israeli civilians living in border regions with the Palestinians as their neighbors. Had the Israeli military not stopped them with force, there is no doubt this group would have continued with their murder, rape, and torture spree until they had swept through the land and conquered everything, and millions had died. The land would be Jew-free with Muslim supremacy established once again. If you listen to the Palestinian terrorist phone calls, they call their parents bragging about how many Jews they killed that day with deep pride. But no matter what they do, they're oppressed, so we must back them.

I get it. 100k Palestinians dead. But that's yesterday's figure. Today the figure is 700k dead and 400k Palestinian babies killed. Check Nerdeen Kiswani's twitter. As long as a study shows it, the figure must be believed. You have no grounds to doubt; you've never been there.

Get over yourselves already, and stop this childish posturing as 'crusaders against fascism' - it's embarassing, and, as we see with the Kirk assassination, potentially dangerous. — Tzeentch

Extremely dangerous. Kirk was influential; he could have run for office one day — if he's a "nazi/fascist," it becomes a moral responsibility to remove him like removing a young Hitler. Murder becomes laudable; a sign of moral virtue. To let him be is to be a passive bystander to a potentially new Hitler rising to power.

Depends on the nature of the support. If one supports, for example, the Gaza Health Foundation's efforts to give meals directly to Palestinians, that's laudable. Fundraising for Hamas and occupying college campuses is not. A student visa is a privilege.

I am opposed to any blanket fear-stoking of immigrants. If that appears in Trump's rhetoric, I oppose it. I do support the deportation of illegal aliens, and I understand that dangerous gangs have entered the country facilitated by lax border policies.

I see Trump going after illegal aliens, but I don't see him going after lawful immigrants.

Just imagine the situation if the youth were being radicalized to the right and assassinating left-wing influencers. Would you still be chiding the fear stokers?

There are plenty of times in history where 'fear of the other' is the proper, rational response.

Fear can be reasonable or unreasonable.

So all this talk about what the Kirk assassination really means - what I think it really is, is a pretext for Trump and the MAGA cabal to drive their 'second American revolution' ever harder. — Wayfarer

Their fear is legitimate. Charlie Kirk shared similar ideological views with Trump/the Trump administration. If one wants Charlie dead, then one likely wants Trump dead. Many of these people have access to sensitive information, so their clearances should be revoked at the very least.

Any military where a sizable portion of its soldiers want their President dead is in serious jeopardy.

Pete Hegseth, the former Fox weekend anchor serving as Donald Trump’s defense secretary, has ordered Pentagon officials to scour social media for comments by service members that make light of Charlie Kirk’s death and punish anyone expressing dissident views, NBC News reports. — The Guardian

Good. As a former service member, any member of the armed forces expressing glee or sympathy over Charlie's death is simply lacking in values. I wouldn't trust someone possessing those values to protect the United States. Nor is the military academia where, theoretically, a wide range of views should be encouraged.

Get in line or get out - and expressing glee over the political assassination of a conservative influencer is so far out of line.

Qatar is a major funder of terrorism and promoter of worldwide Islamism. They have funneled billions of dollars into these goals. They are not America's "friend" or neutral Middle Eastern "negotiators." The US apparently has an interesting relationship with them, where we provide their air defenses, though, and carry on some military-strategic pact. Very interesting.

The racial element is unavoidable. If the killer and victim were the same race, the story wouldn't be getting the same response. The murder crossed both race and gender lines. The footage was released for all to see, unlike in the Karmelo Anthony case. It seems like efforts have been made to suppress previous reports of the same type of crime. It's disconcerting. It tears at the very fabric of multicultural society, and the taboo is being challenged. I'm of a weird double mind about it.

So in this case it is to be debated who exactly is obsessed with beauty, a whole culture, how other culture's compare etc. — boethius

I'm not even sure it's fair to say the West is uniquely obsessed with beauty compared with the non-West. Perhaps if we took, e.g., an African tribe from centuries ago, we might find that their women spend many hours styling their hair, creating bead necklaces, and weaving beautiful clothing for themselves. Perhaps many of their women would fit in well in a city like LA or Miami, with its emphasis on fashion, self care, and transformation. Of course, not all of the US is like those cities. America is not one, but many -- as it surely was with non-Western groups. I draw from the past because I want my sample to be uninfluenced by the West.

Until I am given statistics about self-care/makeup/beauty trends across cultures, I'll be skeptical of a unique Western obsession with beauty. I'd be interested to know time spent, not so much money invested (which can be misleading.)

the more the interactions you do have are surface level and where your appearance has a disproportionate effect. — boethius

I would link this with globalization and technology giving us greater access to the world. IMO, both a good thing and a bad thing, but likely inevitable.

Anyone who speaks can be accused of speaking too loudly. Anyone who eats can be accused of gluttony. Anyone alive, or dead for that matter, can be accused of murder; doesn't imply everyone is a murderer or then no one's a murder, but the merits of each case require consideration.

Murder is binary: It either happened or didn't. With speech, I'd judge according to the norms of the group/culture. When it comes to beauty "obsession," even basic daily skincare could be considered "obsessive" for one who sees no need for it, or believes it is vanity. Skincare has become significantly more advanced over the past century, which is a positive development, as the health of one's skin is essential.

It's seemingly impossible to find objective info on this matter.

IMHO, Gaza was a humanitarian disaster even before the war. Any land that kidnaps and murders political dissidents and homosexuals is a humanitarian disaster. War, of course, brings humanitarian catastrophe, and it is not helping that Hamas hoards food and murders its own citizens. There's apparently quite a bit of infighting occurring between the factions. I want to move the civilians to a safer location, but this is apparently now "supporting genocide."

I'm fine with someone choosing to wear religious garb, but no one should ever be forced into it. In some countries, women face punishment for wearing secular clothes.

Which post of mine you were referring to?

I'm not on board with any humanitarian crisis in Gaza either; the only people who should be getting punished are genocidal Palestinian militant groups and the civilians who take part in their activities. It still baffles my mind that on 10/7, over 2000 Palestinian civilians took part in the atrocities. Obviously, I don't want any innocent Gazan to suffer, but innocents are always killed in war, especially in urban warfare. I condemn all Israeli injustices, of course.

I rewrote the post to say "valuing beauty isn't just a Western thing." Valuing beauty is a human universal. "Obsession" is really just a pejorative for "valuing," implying that the obsessor values the object too much. Anyone who values something can be accused of obsession.

Anyway, I'd loosely agree with Tzeentch: It's a symptom of modernity stemming from social media and the vast array of new treatments and products available.

Valuing beauty isn't just a Western thing. In Islamic societies, women in burqas and niqabs enhance their eyes and eyebrows. In such societies, men (patriarchy) heavily restrict female self-expression, enforced through draconian penalties. Still, women find ways to convey individuality, creativity, and even rebellion. African societies have long histories of beautification well before European influence.

Beauty can be a way to express individuality, creativity, technical expertise, and inner dignity. It is a practice, not just something you're born with. Even natural beauty, if not taken care of, will fade. Beauty consists of many hours of self-care and aesthetic refinement behind the scenes. It is an open secret that beautiful people are treated better.

But how is it inerrant if the author's are untrustworthy and give false information?

Maybe it is Divinely Inspired that way, but, at a minimum, that doesn't seem to cohere with God's nature. Don't you think? — Bob Ross

Which version of the Bible are you claiming inerrancy? In modern biblical studies, many different versions are often compared with each other.

In any case, it may come down to whether one understands the Bible as being written in the language of man to understand the divine or as a divinely perfect language where every detail is meaningful.

Nonetheless, this reading seems to be a stretch. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I would agree, although I would need to read Buber's case. If I'm not mistaken, the mainstream rabbinic Jewish view is that Samuel does receive legitimate revelation, interprets it correctly, and does correctly convey God's will in his command to Saul to destroy Amalek.

The question is what we as believers make of this. What do we have here — a divinely ordained state of exception where moral rules have been temporarily (or permanently) altered regarding a specific group (Amalek, Midian, Canaan)? And sure, we can say that historically, putting groups under the ban in the ancient Near East has precedent, but theologically, what do we make of our relationship with God in light of these commands? And how do we view such an extreme manifestation of His authority? Not only does He give the law, He can also suspend it at will. That is no minor feature.

I don't have any easy answers. Much easier to try to make the question disappear by absolving God of responsibility.

Right. I think there are cases where religious discussion can be quite fruitful:

Interreligious dialogue between contrasting religious approaches — Leontiskos

It has been fruitful. I've picked up quite a bit about the ancient Greeks from Christians on TPF.

It seems like, then, that aspect of the scripture was not Divinely Inspired. — Bob Ross

I don't see what the big deal is here. There are plenty of wicked kings in Israel and Judea's history, and these accounts still make it into the Bible. All I'm saying regarding Samuel's command is that there is ambiguity.

The Bible contains some ugly history.

Is your position, then, that Samual lied about God commanding the slaughter of all the Amalekites? — Bob Ross

Buber thought Samuel was confusing his human impulses with God's will. Rashi, OTOH, does take it as a literal command to slaughter all of Amalek.

You mean the group that published footage today of an emaciated hostage forced to dig his own grave? It's fine — he's a Zionist.

If we're listing heads of state whose soldiers have committed or likely committed war crimes, we could add Zelenskyy to that list.

For example, there is a constant vacillation in the Bible between the idea that everything is according to God's will (and therefore even evil things are brought about by God), and the idea that God does not do or will evil. I think that's a natural vacillation that can't be overcome easily or quickly, and the sacred texts inevitably reflect this reality. — Leontiskos

Yes. I suspect the former idea is earlier, the latter idea (seen in Chronicles) is later. Biblical authors struggle to deal with this. Each view has its strengths and weaknesses. I find the notion that God allows evil to fester and build until it's ripe for destruction to be a fascinating and non-modern one. My favorite theodicy is Job. We can engage in apologetics, but ultimately, I believe the existence of evil and suffering in this world is beyond human comprehension.

@Leontiskos @Bob Ross

On one reading it would superficially reinterpret the text. On the reading that ↪BitconnectCarlos provided it would not. The sort of question here asks whether we are permitted to interpret these sorts of post-Pentateuch texts as including the perspective of a fallible author, such as Samuel. — Leontiskos

I remember the writing in bSamuel as brilliant and capturing what can happen even when legitimate prophecy is granted to the crooked timber of humanity. I think it would be a mistake and a superficial reading to decontextualize the command to kill the Amalekites and use that as an injunction against God. The command is given by Samuel, speaking on behalf of God.

Even though Samuel is a legitimate prophet, he's far from a passive conduit of the divine will. He's constantly setting up Saul for failure. Samuel is irascible and continually seeks influence and power for himself. Presumably, if Saul fails, Saul can be dismissed and Samuel can exert authority again. Samuel is a fascinating character and quite complex. He is critical of both the kingship and the people. His speeches in Samuel remind me of a libertarian warning against the dangers of big government. It is unclear how much of this is genuine ideological commitment versus a desire to maintain influence.

Martin Buber argues that Samuel mistakes his own will for God's, which I imagine would be easy to do for a man who selects kings and possesses a special relationship with the divine. The divine voice in this book is more removed than in earlier books.

In Torah, you'll hear, e.g., "And God said to Abraham...." In the book of Samuel, this doesn't happen, and instead, it's Samuel telling Saul to put Amalek under the ban. The key here is Samuel. He could be correctly and perfectly conveying God's will, or he could be mistaken, or he could be deceiving. The clarity of Torah, where we see God's words openly dictated, is no longer present in Samuel.

Interpret the text to be talking about indirect intention, and adjust one's interpretive hermeneutic (to deviate from the literal meaning).
Hold that life and death are in God's hands, that for God to kill is not murder, and that God can temporarily delegate this power.
Hold that the Amalekites were demons and demons can be justly killed (see Hanover's post).
Hold to some form of group morality rather than a strict individual morality.
Hold to a pedagogical approach on the part of God. — Leontiskos

IIRC, if we take the Book of Samuel literally, we understand that God's words/wishes/desires are all conveyed through the prophet Samuel. Samuel serves as a mediator between the divine and the Israelites, allowing us to contextualize him with other divine mediators. Additionally, in the Book of Samuel, Samuel often plays an active role in shaping events or situations to his will. In any case, the words we have in the Book of Samuel are Samuel conveying the divine will, and that ambiguity runs through the text (i.e. whether it is God or Samuel making the commands... or both). If I had to judge, I'd say it's a mix of both. Even at this early date (c.1050 bc-1000 bc), the words of God are not as clear and direct as they were before in the Torah. The Torah is from Sinai; Samuel, while a brilliant piece of literature, isn't.

murder is the direct intentional killing of an innocent person — Bob Ross

It seems a medical professional who engages in euthanasia would fit this definition.

Agree. I see Bob's point as an ordinary and natural theological hurdle. “Man is by nature unable to want God to be God. Indeed, he himself wants to be God, and does not want God to be God" - Luther.

Who hasn't read the Hebrew Bible and thought, "If only I were in charge, I would have handled the situation better." However, upon deeper reflection, we find ourselves unjustified in our judgments of the divine. The Flood is the first central juncture point.

Fake news. It's actually Hamas killing their own. They want to get to the food first and kill civilians for stealing it.

Note that when I spoke about the possibility of being pushed away from the OT, I was prescinding from the question of Christianity. — Leontiskos

Could you elaborate?

Or perhaps such an argument must push us away from the Old Testament altogether. That's possible. I am not there myself, but I do know some people who take such routes. — Leontiskos

I don't see how Christianity can do this. Jesus frequently references the Old Testament, so the Christian exegetical approach to those passages would be something along the lines of "Jesus is referencing irrelevant texts" if we were to discard or "push away" the OT. Who or what would that make Jesus? Maybe a conman.

Will antifa be demonstrating for the Druze anytime soon? Confront the Islamic fascists sent to butcher them? You should push that through, be the change you want to see in the world.

So Syrian jihadists are murdering Druze and on their way to murder more as I type this. This won't get it's own thread and it will receive scant media attention. Israel has been helping the Druze, but this also won't get attention.

Funny how Israel is so racist against the Palestinians/Arabs but stands up for the Druze (who are also Arab). Wonder what it is. We shouldn't think too hard, though; Israel is racist, and even though they're saving the Druze, nothing can change that fact. :roll: