:lol: — 180 Proof

You can laugh, but you still have a value system. An idea of good and bad that you claim as authoritative. You laugh at mine but what is yours grounded in? Why is it true? Because Marx said it? On what basis should I pay it any heed whatsoever?

Also worth noting that your worldview seemingly rests on a blatant double standard where ethnic cleansing that targeted Jews are apparently not subject to 'justice' or 'repatriation' otherwise jews would be getting back hebron. bethlehem too was jewish where's our justice?

The Promised Land Grab

Promised to the Israelites by God but only insofar as they uphold the covenant. The right to the land is ultimately behavior based -- not might makes right. In our religion, we don't exonerate murder, rape, and man stealing because one is from an oppressed group.

What does yours tell you? That all oppressed people everywhere have the absolute right to rid themselves of their oppressors by any means necessary?

Historical Jesus of Nazareth: the courage and insight to say, to Judeans, in Occupied Judea, to love even your enemies... — ENOAH

I think about this one sometimes. IMO a peculiar teaching. I guess in some circumstances it would necessitate internally reaffirming your love of an enemy and then picking up your rifle (or whatever weapon you have) and ending his life e.g. in a time of war where your enemy is out to kill you. I suppose this is the right way to think about it?

Why are you referring to Israel with they/them pronouns? Zionism seeks a homeland, Islam seeks the world. After Israel, Europe. If defending oneself from a pathogen which seeks to eat you is aggression then Israel is the aggressor, sure. Hamas demands a return to 1967 borders at which point they will continue their "negotiations" i.e. their unwavering fight to destroy Israel through whatever means possible. Yet ofc it's Israel who refuses to negotiate. Hamas is cancer that needs eradication as is fundamentalist Islam.

@180 Proof

Here's Douglas Murray interviewing a reformed Hamas militant (Palestinian muslim) who is deeply knowledgeable. It's also age restricted so if you're under 18 do not click the link.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2mXvZHTuo

You could always negotiate with a hungry lion by giving it your leg.

Really? No one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwzNAV4sWs&t=218s (It's less than 5 minutes)

When they say liberate Palestine they mean all of it.

Israel's existence is very much the issue as we hear the chants "from the river to the sea" and "we don't want no two state we want all of 48." It was an issue in 1948. It is certainly an issue for Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran as well as the protestors here in the US flying their flags and wearing their clothing in our major cities.

If you accept it that's great. I agree there many ways Israel can improve as a country. The US and UK are/were very flawed countries in the 40s and today.

The crime, in their eyes, is that such land was taken from them by a coloniser (the British) to be promised to another coloniser (zionist Jews, later Israël). — Benkei

We should keep in mind that there have been Jewish communities living in Palestine (and by that I mean the land) since antiquity. There have also been millions of Jews expelled from surrounding Arab countries like Egypt or Yemen who have had to migrate to Palestine and have lived there for centuries. The policies of the Ottoman Turks encouraged large migrations of Arabs in the 19th century many of whom are today's Palestinians. My point is, demographically things are really mixed up. It's not as simple as Arabs have native and Jews are colonizers. Various groups arrived at various different points. Neither Jews nor Palestinians are a monolith. The Turks were certainly colonizers.

I'm sorry if you think Jewish autonomy in Palestine is unjust but so were the millions of Jews who were expelled from their lands across the Middle East and subject to pogroms and purges under Arab rule including in Palestine before there was a Jewish state. Ancient communities of Jews were oppressed and treated as second class citizens for centuries by foreign Arab powers. We weren't going to return to it. We were prepared to share it with the Arabs who refused to cede an inch. They would not share with their neighbors insisting only on a position of dominance.

Quite obviously there are limits to how resistance can be executed. 7 Oct was over the line. But as pointed out before: Be prepared for it to happen again and again and again until the underlying reasons for such attacks are dealt with. — Benkei

:up:

And the underlying reasons are Israeli crimes. Hamas and PLO didn't exist before the Israeli occupation. They are reactionary. — Benkei

Here's where we part. I don't deny that some attacks are retaliatory in nature. But significant attacks on Jews happened before the creation of Israel in the 20s and 30s - these happened because the influx of Jewish immigrants were seen as a threat to the arab muslim population. These attacks were in response to Jewish power which ultimately culminated in the creation of Israel. There would be "peace" if muslims ruled and Jews submissively obeyed as they largely did under the ottomans, but such rule is hardly acceptable now. Jewish control of Jerusalem is an implacable humiliation for them. It comes down to control/power/hegemony over the holy land. It is the existence of Israel (i.e. an independent Jewish polity) that is the crime.

Thus we hear "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" and "we don't want no two state we want all of 48" among others. 1948 was humiliation. A backwards step theologically.

According to what standard? Are all members of an oppressed class allowed to murder members of the oppressor class? We can see where that takes us.

For you it's not about what is done but about rather the identity of the victim and perpetrator that determines morality.

Palestinian kills Jew = Resistance. Jew kills Palestinian = war crime. We see it everywhere now. Sign of the times. And surely wherever you're from has no racial problems.

Everything is racist and should be burned to the ground. Everything is a war crime. Got it.

Because Israel has freedom of press and everyone is able to speak as they like. Unlike in virtually any Arab country including the Gaza or the West Bank. That alone should put Israel on a higher tier, morally speaking. Did Nazi Germany allow free speech? Did they allow Jews in their government and courts?

Which is the lesser evil for you: Israel or the PLO/Hamas? It's unquestionably Israel, for me. And every country has racial/ethnic problems. But not all are free to speak on it. Of course Israel has problems, as does every country.

Hamas believes all of Israel is occupied territory. The Israeli far right like Ben-Gvir believe Gaza and all the West Bank should all be Israel. But Ben-Gvir is not the government, he is the far right. There are no plans to relocate or ethnically cleanse Gaza of Arab muslims that I am aware of. Netanyahu is prepared to aid in the rebuilding Palestinian infrastructure depending on disarmament.

There is no apartheid. Arab muslims who are Israeli have equal rights. Every Israeli has equal rights. No one is owed citizenship.

The charges are spurious and Israel's bombings are targeted. Very humane combatant to civilian ratio.

I can distinguish between powerful and weaker. Israel is currently more powerful than the Gazan or West Bank authorities. Thankfully. The more powerful side isn't inherently in the wrong when it acts against the weaker side. Weak can still be thoroughly evil.

Well there's the Polish resistance and the Jewish resistance and these are different matters. I believe in the Jewish resistance they mostly kept their resistance against military targets or railroads or other infrastructure like that. Regardless, reprisals intentionally directed at innocent civilians are clearly evil and deserving of retribution.

Yes they could be brutal against US soldiers in Vietnam. Hamas and the PLO consider all of Israel occupied land so you'll get brutality anywhere. It would be as if the Vietcong attacked American civilians in Massachusetts and claimed it was occupied land and that their attack constituted resistance because Massachusetts is occupied. If we listen to the actual phone calls of 10/7 perpetrators they're just bragging about killing Jews. I know for westerners it's all about "occupation" and the "west bank" but in the middle east it's a bit different.

I just don't see how targeted bombings constitute crimes against humanity. If so, everyone is guilty of it and the term has little meaning.

Yes, yes. That means an awful lot coming from someone who is spinning apologetics for crimes against humanity. — Tzeentch

Attacking buildings that Hamas operates from is not a crime against humanity.

Oh sure, and I could claim that the Polish resistance fighters who carried out the Warsaw Uprising were terrorists and criminals. — Tzeentch

Did Polish resistance fighters parachute into German musical festivals and go on a rape and murder sprees? Did they go house to house torturing and raping left-wing Germans for no reason at all? Did they operate from a government that openly and clearly calls for the destruction of Germany and the subjugation of the German people under Jewish rule?

If nothing else, consider this: Israeli Arabs are treated better than Arabs anywhere else in the Arab world. They have full equal rights and participation in Parliament. That would be like if German Jews were the best treated Jews in Europe. This is where things fall apart.

If German Jews were treated well by Germany but Jews elsewhere were not I would need to look further.

I could claim that Palestinian SS abducted that shepherd boy. I could say that Palestinian SS murder Israeli settlers. Every single Hamas rocket fired at Israel is a war crime. You see only black and white.

Amalek in normal jewish parlance is any serious enemy of Israel. But no, I don't think Israel intends to murder their cows and chickens. Or their civilians for that matter, as demonstrated by how Israel provides them with medical aid and humanitarian aid.

@ENOAH take note that this is how discussions devolve.

I had a response typed out to last post but upon reading this I realized it didn't really matter what I said bc propaganda has convinced you that israelis in the west bank are einsatzgruppen. it's interesting because i consider palestinians in that areas nazis -- they recently abducted and stoned to death a 14 year shepherd boy among others. yet you never hear that condemned. point being, it's back and forth. :roll:

I'm looking over Netanyahu's postwars plans and I don't see anything about ridding Gaza of Palestinian Arabs. I do see a strong Israeli security presence at least for a time. The plan also states so that there will be no israeli civilian or settlements in Gaza after the war so.... would why would israel cleanse Gaza if it's just going be empty? Anyway, I don't see anything in here about ethnic cleansing.

As for Amalek, Netanyahu called Hamas Amalek and the comparison is fitting seeing as both groups targeted weak, vulnerable populations and Hamas has fomented Jew hate since day one. They are unmistakably enemies of the Jewish people and they don't try to hide it.

Of course it's not grounds for congratulations per se. I only mention it with regard to the genocide charge. The civilian to combatant ratio is quite humane, historically speaking. We should also remember that Hamas employs child soldiers as young as 14 and will turn areas where children gather as the bases of their military operations. Additionally, around 12% of Hamas's own rockets misfire and land in Gaza and Hamas has fired many thousand of rockets into Israel since 10/7. These rockets will kill their own and are surely included in the fatality count.

Not much reasoning to be done with the modern day brownshirts. I remember 9/11 when ~3k Americans died and there was no question we were going after al-Qaeda. 180k Afghanis died in that war. A comparable event happens in Israel, but with greater degrees of rape and torture, and Israel is immediately seen as committing genocide despite strict ROEs and letting in hundreds of trucks of aid. "Genocide" accusations are modern day is a modern day blood libel. And it goes without saying if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians it could but has taken a much more careful route.

Shouldn't you be outside chanting "from the river to the sea" with your fellow protestors? Calling for Arab domination of Israel like your keffiyeh-clad friends? We don't want no two state we want all of 48. Go do your activism.

And when you do, make sure to equate the deaths of maybe 8 or 9000 civilians to the 11 million killed in the holocaust because it's like totally the same thing.

Run along now, I hear they're giving free keffiyehs.

.

Have you considered converting to Islam? I hear they're very welcoming and they've got an imam giving prayers at Columbia right now.

Are you concerned about the rise of Islamophobia?

Are you concerned about the rise of anti-semitism on college campuses?

It goes from myths to legends to real history and it's not always clear where the line is. That's what fascinates me. Consider the message/big picture themes of these stories in contrast to other stories of the time. That's what it makes it revolutionary. This is just one tribe's experience with the being known as YHWH ofc it could be described as ethnocentric.

The Gaza Health ministry now reports fatalities at 22k. Israel has killed 13k Hamas, so that brings us to 9k civilians. Then consider that Hamas's rockets will often misfire and hit their own civilians.

And calling it a holocaust is ridiculous and of course only applied to Israel.

Again, much bigger death tolls elsewhere... no Jews, no news. The world has a Jew obsession. Israel is fighting a very humane war here ratio-wise and aid wise.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/

Modern day blood libel. Mass starvation? Seriously? :lol: Israel has let in more aid than those idiots at the UN know what to do with. Doesn't it bother you that there there's never a peep of protest when violence occurs in Africa? Christians getting hacked to death by Islamists in Nigeria, not a peep. Not a peep for Assad or Hussein, but the Jewish nation responds to Islamist aggression in a very civil manner and all hell breaks loose. No Jews, no news.

I'd wager less than 10k civilians killed.

"From the river to the sea" is itself a call for ethnic cleansing. A call for a return to dhimmi status. Parents of Columbia students may be questioning their decisions after learning that they've been spending $90k/year to have their children turned into little intifada warriors and while getting lectured & taught by open supporters of terrorist groups.

Exactly how I feel about the American left turning out en masse on college campuses to support genocidal murderers. Protestors chanting "we are all hamas."

The quote I posted was existentialism. Man creates his own values. I thought a comparison of belief systems might be fruitful to the discussion. I sought to understand my interlocutor's belief system. The discussion at this point was about Judaism.

If a minority population of white supremacists under a white supremacist government killed 1200 blacks in an alternative timeline where blacks are the dominant power group, would you appreciate people calling for a ceasefire or to not respond at all? How would you respond to the world telling you that you need to be nicer to them and stop oppressing them. You need to let them import whatever weapons (i.e. grant them statehood) despite their government's stated intention to either murder or subjugate you. Anything else would be apartheid.

You don't view intention as morally relevant. :roll: :lol:

False dichotomy. — Benkei

Is my quote representative of your beliefs or not? I'd figure it is. You're an atheistic materialist. No? The universe has no real meaning/value save what we choose to impose?

But nice try trying to make this personal and misrepresenting what I said so you can pretend I'm just another bigoted antisemite. — Benkei

But I really get the sense that you are. You talk about xenophobic rabbis. I can tell you don't like that the Jews stick to their own. You probably think they believe themselves superior. You may not be a Christian, but you're familiar with the New Testament - a massive source of anti-semitism. You routinely criticize Jewish barbarism, yet never really Muslim barbarism. And now you want me to condemn Bibi for waging war on Hamas after murdering 1200 Israelis? The idea that Judaism is the dumbest religion is also anti-semitic and ridiculous. But above all, it would be your attempt to deny and deconstruct Jewish identity that is anti-semitic. Judaism is passed on through the mother and Judaism is indigenous to Israel. It is the historic homeland of the Jews with Jerusalem as the cultic center.

You're an atheist who doesn't believe in anything. Reminds me of a quote.

"Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves; go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us."

Yet you continue to moralize, hate, and judge -- especially the Jews. Why do you even care how a group defines itself? You need a therapist who you can talk with about the Jews who are apparently the worst of all religions, the source of all religious evil.

Come to think of it, isn't a 28 year old Dutch woman due to be euthanized next month for depression? Why is death a bad thing, after all. Why prefer it over life? Why does life even have value? :chin: Death does mean no more pain, after all. Why drudge yourself to work in the morning when you could just euthanize yourself? The muslims will not have a hard time with this country - although you have a potential savoir in Geert.

Is the man allowed to sign the document to order the deportation process given the reasonable assumption that it would happen regardless of his signature?

What are your thoughts on self-sacrifice in this instance? The refusal to sign could be reasonably inferred to make no essential, utilitarian difference.

Regardless of whether we call Palestinians "indigenous" or not -- and I've heard all types of theories e.g. that many of them descend from workers imported by the Ottoman empire in the 19th century, that they're genetically closer to Jordan or Egypt.... Whatever it is, I think most Israelis would be fine giving them a state as long as they accepted the existence of Israel which they have not and have instead just engaged in constant violence since Israel's inception. It's a security matter above all else. Israel doesn't want Hamas or the PLO importing nukes or biological weapons.

Did you get that line from the Talmud? — Lionino

:roll:

This depends on the particular persons engaged that "futile" situation. — 180 Proof

I don't see how the particular individual matters much. Historically, he would be a community leader. Do you understand the scenario?