Yes if Hamas were to release the hostages I'd expect there to be a ceasefire. Gaza is not really that historically important to the Jews,

Release the people who were stolen from Israel and Bibi will stop.

Looks like the IDF got Sinwar :fire: :fire: :fire:

Lived like a rat, died like a rat.

You can say that you're a Hamas/Hezbollah supporter, it's ok. Sure, maybe you think sometimes (e.g on 10/7) they go a little over the top, but you're fundamentally onboard with their purposes. Is it fair to say at least that you're a sympathizer?

Hell, I'll support a side without condoning its every action. The Red Army committed many atrocities but I'll still take them over what they were fighting against.

Zero. There has been no cases where IDF soldiers and/or Israeli civilians went house to house murdering, raping, and torturing Palestinians in a manner comparable to 10/7.

Then why are they constantly flying Hamas and Hezbollah flags at protests and cosplaying as terrorists? Why are they chanting for the same goals as these groups -- namely, the annihilation of Israel? Why are they tearing down hostage posters and desecrating memorials to terror victims? The most straightforward explanation is that they are terror supporters.

The world is going insane. — Benkei

Tell me about it. Never thought I'd see so many westerners out on the streets protesting in favor of totalitarian organizations that rule by hardline religious rule, murder LGBTQ, and suppress women's rights and dissent in what has become a progressive cause. Wokeism has degenerated into support for jihadism & intolerance against the only western, democratic state in the Middle East.

UNIFIL needs to leave. Weren't they supposed to enforce resolution 1701? That clearly didn't happen and the IDF has found Hezbollah tunnels a few dozen meters from their sites. Let the grown ups do their jobs and have the blue helmets go play soldier in another location.

Explain to me how Hezbollah was able to build tunnels (that took years to build and were used to attack Israel) ~100 meters away from UNIFIL. It's impossible UNIFIL didn't know. They've simply neglected their mission and now they're in a warzone that is a direct result of their own failure. Get them out of there.

You can be an anti-Zionist Jew. The logical conclusion of anti-Zionism is the destruction of Israel. You cannot be "anti-Zionist, pro-Israel."

And I'm pretty sure those guys in your vid were excommunicated.

Benkei, the Jews invented the idea. How can they be wrong about what it means? :chin:

Maybe you meant IRA and Hamas? — I like sushi

:up:

In which case I would not agree. The IRA were not genocidal. — I like sushi

:100:

It seems that it is culturally entrenched, if one doubles down on a (violent) strategy that has actually helped make the situation worse, not better. — schopenhauer1

:100:

This scenario doesn't seem to fall at all under the first two which would cause a form of psychosis in the intensity and kind of harm taking place.. It's not enslavement/death camp levels of suffering. — schopenhauer1

There's no comparing Gaza to slavery or a Nazi concentration camp. The question of the slave is interesting: There was the case of Nat Turner, an escaped slave who went on a rampage killing white people in the South. I think most would say this is wrong but there remains sympathy for it in some circles. It is understandable on some level how the oppressed class could harbor such hatred for not only their direct oppressors, but everyone of that group. Still wrong, but understandable. The Gaza situation is obviously far removed from that as you mention. I know of no cases where concentration camp survivors went house to house murdering Germans.

If someone IRL told me that they were "pro-Israel but anti-zionist" I would laugh. Zionism is why Israel is a state. It would make more sense to say "I'm a Zionist but opposed to certain Israeli policies." To say that you are "anti-zionist" is to say that you are opposed to Jewish self-determination. A true "anti-zionist" would seek the destruction of Israel/the loss of Jewish self-determination.

Did my discussion with @ssu fundamentally change your view of me? Really? And is there a certain type of pro-Israel Jew that you do respect?

Keep hand-wringing over Zionist "settler-colonialism" over a tiny sliver of land while ignoring or defending a rapidly growing 1400 year old religious colonialist empire 600x Israel's size.

In any case, follow my discussion with @ssu as an example of how productive & polite discussion goes. I wouldn't even call it an argument.

If the IRA and Palestinians were comparable, that would mean the IRA seeks to conquer England and install rigid Catholic rule. It would state in their Constitution their absolute commitment to conquering London.

For the millionth time, Israel doesn't make the laws or grant the rights in Gaza or parts of the West Bank. Saying "Israel needs to give equal rights to the Palestinians" is like saying the US needs to give equal rights to the Mexicans.

Are partisans not a violent resistance group?

A vassal of the Seleucids up until the Maccabees revolted in ~160 BC leading to the creation of an independent Jewish state under the Hasmoneans from around 150 BC - 37 BC. This is the event behind of Hanukkah. From 37 BC the Jews have their "Quislings" -- the Roman-backed Herodians. The Hasmoneans were no Quislings.

We can go back further. Between ~1000 BC - 586 BC Israelite/Jewish independence was realized up until the Babylonian exile. Even given a sober view of the historical record the history of proud Jewish resistance holds. Israelites fought off Philistines and Assyrians among others to secure their independence. I'm happy to call out propagandistic bullshit when it's present, but I can't in this case.

edit: from 63 bc onwards the hasmoneans are roman vassals.

Violent resistance movements tend to use very comparable methods, that usually extend to acts of extreme cruelty and targeting of civilians. — Tzeentch

Anti-Nazi partisan groups largely focused on weaking German military infrastructure, not going on rape & murder sprees of uninvolved German civilians. I am not familiar with anything comparable to 10/7 among groups persecuted by the Nazis. Being oppressed shouldn't automatically turn one into a complete animal free from all moral considerations.

Rome was the hegemon who controlled Judea & Samaria from the 1st century BC onwards. The land was previously ruled by Jewish powers. I don't see why the success or failure of rebellions against Rome should matter regarding the idea of Zionism -- those revolts were an attempt to re-establish independent Jewish rule in the region.

That vision has existed before and after Roman rule. It a Jewish constant. Whether it's Hertzl or bar Kohkba (or others in between), the goal is 1) Remove foreign hegemons from the land and 2) Re-establish Jewish self-rule. The technology differs, the foreign powers differ, but it's the same essential idea. It comes down to control and dominance. If you would like to educate me about why the Roman empire was not a colonizer then I'm all ears. Even if Rome doesn't fit the exact "modern" sense of colonizer, it remained the hegemon -- the undisputed dominant power in the region.

The history of Zionism has nothing to do with decolonisation. — Benkei

Tell that the Jews who fought the Romans in the 1st and 2nd centuries in order to re-establish an independent Jewish kingdom in the land of Israel. Is that not the basic idea of Zionism?

Whether it's hertzl dreaming of decolonizing Israel from the Ottomans or bar Kokhba's followers dreaming of decolonizing Israel from the Romans it's the same basic idea. Hertzl was just a relatively (secular) revival of the idea.

Zionism has long been understood as a decolonization movement. Both the Romans and Muslim powers were colonizers of Israel. Under Roman rule there were revolts to establish a free independent Jewish state (as had existed prior) so Zionism is nothing new.

And yes, Mexico is no longer controlled by Spain, Haiti no longer French, etc.

It's interesting to compare. In any case, yes North America was colonized, but it also underwent large-scale decolonization. The idea of decolonizing Muslim lands (e.g. Zionism) is met with mass protests and violence around the world including on college campuses. The West is largely apologetic over its imperialist past, not so with the Muslim world.

Israel is but the tip of a might US dick that penetrates the Middle East from behind. If the penis goes limp can the tip stay in? — boethius

I love how in this metaphor the Islamic middle east is likened to an abused asshole. The greatest & most brutal settler-colonial project in history -- Islamic rule -- is really just a poor helpless orifice used and abused by the US and Israel. But by all means continue as an apologist for brutal authoritarianism and Islamic religious fanaticism. I guess you're one of those "anything to see the West fall" types.

Unfortunately Israel cannot negotiate with those who seek to indiscriminately murder its citizens and take its land in the name of Islam. There already was a cease fire on October 6th of last year.

What do you guys think of the notion of scarcity in cryptocurrency? It is a given that scarcity alone is not value, scarcity is a necessary but insufficient condition of value. — hypericin

At first I agreed with this 100% and this is certainly the traditional view, but then I remembered the sudden rise in dogecoin's value which is the furthest thing from scarce.

Given this, are cryptocurrencies truly scarse? — hypericin

It's not that cryptocurrencies are scarce, but certain cryptocurrencies, like bitcoin, are scarce. The devs determine the supply distribution.

There's no apartheid. Nor do I think you know what a war crime is. Until you learn the facts about the two sides consider yourself ignored. :mask:

The fact that you mentioned the "apartheid" in Gaza means you simply don't understand the facts about this conflict. Nor does it matter that Jews can be oppose Zionism (some do for purely religious reasons). To oppose Zionism is to support a reversion to the old order where Jews were at the mercy of foreign powers and could be stripped of statehood and butchered. No thank you.

Three year olds in a busy urban street? Trust who? Do you just argue to argue? — schopenhauer1

No I just see a logic to certain practices where you don't. Or the parents could just be idiots. Or drug addicts. Not always so easy to pin down the roots of a practice.

EDIT: Seeing children playing in the street or dogs roaming may very well not be culture. A good example of a culture would be the US military. It is also non-theological.

I’m sure a lot of religious practices had no discernible origin and later ideas and stories made it have a backstory — schopenhauer1

Then those ideas and stories are the logic.

Oh you mean "anti-semites" like ... — 180 Proof

I don't agree with all the names on that list, but there were blacks who opposed the civil rights movement & supported racial segregation. Being a member of X group doesn't preclude one from antagonism towards that group or opposing rights for that group due to other reasons.

All Zionism is is support for Jewish self-determination in the land of Israel/Palestine.

I was thinking more like three year olds playing in the street or letting dogs roam neighborhood without being confined to owners property…that’s how it was done in the old country isn’t really a logic. — schopenhauer1

If you're allowing the children to be out late that's a sign of a high-trust society and the practice reflects that.

I wasn’t necessarily thinking religious practice though there could be just no reason for it — schopenhauer1

I can't think of one.

Ok so what if there was no logic, it's literally mimetic in that everyone's ancestors did it from way back when? — schopenhauer1

I don't think I believe in this. Can you cite an example? Even very strange religious practices have a logic to them.

Right, well you made it seem by knowing the logic, the intolerance will go away. But what if knowing the logic makes no difference or even makes it worse? — schopenhauer1

The intolerance won't go away, but it will help us understand it. I do find learning the logic behind it interesting -- it helps us understand things like the depth of the wickedness and where its roots lie. And this leads us to ask: Were the roots themselves wicked or were they twisted by the culture?

I mean where is the dividing line. In some ways, religions can be seen as a philosophy, no? One can even enter a religious community rather than being born into one. — schopenhauer1

Religions contain philosophy. I wouldn't describe them as philosophy.

Sure, okay, a culture that say, perceives its land being stolen believes it has a right to get it back by any means necessary (terrorism).. There is a logic. I understand it. So? — schopenhauer1

I agree that cultures can be wicked. But there is a logic behind it that can be explored.

A culture seems to be something one generally falls into, though one can take it on too. What if one is about virtue-building but isn't following any particular program, just their own.. Is that culture? — schopenhauer1

No, that's you reading and interpreting ideas. Culture is very real and it can really impact a person whether they "agree" to it or not. Culture to a large extent is impressed upon an individual not so with philosophy.

Can one be a "culturist", meaning can one morally be "against" certain cultures, or should people be tolerant of all cultural aspects — schopenhauer1

You can be against certain cultures, but there's certainly a logic to that culture that you need to be aware of. So usually just saying "I'm against X culture" sounds kind of stupid -- it's like the accuser isn't not engaging with the logic behind the cultural practice.

You're my favorite troll. :lol:

I would think that number of arrests is generally indicative of criminality unless you want to maintain that the police just hate palestine and are arresting the protestors for no reason. One can engage in criminality without violence, such as when highways are blocked and traffic is held up for hours.

It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of fact that pro-Israeli sides have committed violence in the US as well and the majority (97%) of all protests on both sides have been peaceful. — Benkei

How about the many times that they stopped traffic here in the US? Is that considered peaceful? In the US we saw a wave of violence across college campuses as pro-Palestine protestors took over university buildings and vandalized them. No parallels from the Israel crew. Thousands of arrests on the Palestine side, very few on the Israel side.

One is opposition against a political idea, the other is just plain hatred. — Benkei

Yes, a hatred that is bent on the destruction of the world's only Jewish state and a reversion to the old order. I don't see how this is hard to understand. If someone were to oppose the notion of an Irish state we would call them anti-Irish.