Israel fights a greater evil. Perfection exists nowhere in this world especially during war. In politics the question is often which power is less bad.

I can't tell what your specific complaint is.

"Jews should have a homeland" (Zionism) is no different than the idea that e.g. Armenians or Kurds should have a homeland.

Implicit in Zionism is an ethnic-religious hierarchy.

Caveat: History shows that sooner or later every ethno-state that systemically oppresses – murderously dispossess – out-groups, especially via deliberate and explicit policies of sabotaging "peace", forfeits its 'right to exist'. — 180 Proof

Is any state/community allowed to preserve/codify its ancestral traditions? Or is it all just supremacy?

So you can keep getting back to all the horrible attacks on Jews but I'm not committing them so don't have anything to do with it and don't need to apologise or make any statement about it because it's irrelevant with respect to Israel. — Benkei

Israel as an idea predates Israel as a modern nation state. In a sense, attacks on Jewish spaces are attacks on Israel. Israel is supranational as is the conflict.

And to be fair the bloodied victims were almost certainly zionists. So you should support it, perhaps. There's confusion about what makes one a valid target? Only Israeli Jews living on occupied land? Or all Israelis living on occupied land? Or perhaps all zionists everywhere.

Implicit in Nazism is racial hierarchy. "Germany for the Germans" is a fine idea as long as the foreigner is treated hospitably. It's when the foreigner seeks to eat their host that things get thorny.

I don't condone violence against Jews, except as part of the Israeli occupation, as you know. — Benkei

Does this mean all Jews in Israel are valid targets? Or that all Israelis are valid targets? Or only Jews/Israelis in the "occupied territories" are valid targets? See, the boundaries are porous. Many Palestinians consider all of Israel to be occupied territory, as you know. So is it ok to kill Jews in the West Bank but not in Jerusalem? There's no difference, really -- all of it is "stolen" in the Palestinian view.

In any case, what is the principle at work here to arrive at this conclusion? If land is "occupied" then you have the right to go around willy-nilly murdering the civilians of the occupying power? Really? Babies born on "occupied territory" have no right to live?

You simply love to equate and smudge the differences between Jews, Israeli Jews, Zionists and Israel as a country.

In reality these concepts are porous; they spill over into one another. ~90% of the Jews are zionists including all major denominations. There's no Judaism without the commitment/tie to Israel. It would be like trying to separate a child from its family -- from it's roots.

Same idea between Israel and Jews. Israel is mostly Jews. The conflict is fundamentally ethnic, but nation-states are a relatively recent notion that's been grafted onto the ancient (ethno-religious) conflict. When you understand the conflict in this way you understand it how the Jews and Muslims in the region understand it. Then there's none of this "well it's ok to murder Jews in the West Bank but not in e.g. Tel Aviv or Jerusalem" type of nonsense.

However, antisemites (re: Jews), like rightwing evangelical Christians and Iranian/rightwing Israeli-backed 'Hamas terrorists', are, in fact, pro-zionists (i.e. anti-"Two-State Solution"). — 180 Proof

Or, maybe, the anti-semites are the ones showing up to synagogues and assaulting Jews.

Are these evangelicals? :nerd:

You can stuff your anti-semitism where the sun don't shine. — Benkei

Your privilege is showing. When was the last time the Dutch really suffered? Or 1/3 of your countrymen systematically exterminated in a way which was entirely legal? We are not the same; don't ever forget it. Jews were violently assaulted in front of an LA synagogue today as well as the terrorist attack in Russia which targeted a synagogue. A little sensitivity wouldn't kill you. Jewish homes and businesses vandalized are becoming a regular occurrence in the states & elsewhere in the West. Not Israeli soldiers targeted, just random visibly Jewish Jews.

And it goes without saying that Jews have been ethnically cleansed from across the middle east and -- god forbid -- went to Israel for refuge. Those dirty zionists.

One of the reasons that Israel exists is because of attitudes like yours that dismiss anti-semitism and in turn foster a demand for independent Jewish leadership.

If Israel drops Zionism — Benkei

A Jewish homeland. That's all it is. If Israel is to be a democracy and a Jewish one it must maintain a certain demographic composition. Israel cannot "drop" Zionism because zionism is what affirms its existence -- Jewish self-determination.

Zionism is Jewish self-determination. Israel is the manifestation of that idea.

And the left sides with him re: the current rising tide of anti semitism sweeping the West. Regarding a Jewish state the Jews are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image.”
— Golda Meir

Society is seeing levels of anti-semitism not seen since the 1930s and you rant about the "ashkenazis."

BTW David Duke sides with the anti-Israel protesters.

What is your point? Everyone is racist against everyone. Racism exists in some capacity everywhere unless a society were completely homogenous. Is that what you're after?

"There's racism in Israel" is banal to me. There's been 8 wars since Israel's inception where Israel faced annihilation of it lost. Not to mention centuries of Jewish persecution at the hands of Arabs. As long as Arab citizens are equal before the law and receive fair treatment in courts and have the same rights as the rest of the citizenry then I wouldn't call it apartheid. If there is apartheid (separate treatment), it is based on religion, not race.

Under what methodology are the ashkis the "in group" while the sephardis and mizrahi are the out group? Did the Jews decide this? Or an outside group that made this designation to condone bigotry towards them as they are labeled the "oppressors class."

Then you don't understand what discrimination is and you have much bigger problems. These laws would be struck down in the EU. — Benkei

Of course, no one is expecting the EU to define itself as a Jewish nation state. But the entire EU and the Jews are two very different groups with two very different histories. As long as I see Israeli arabs with equal political rights & access to high positions & non-discrimination protections regarding employment I will not think "apartheid." Of course racism exists everywhere.

The laws clearly did demonstrate the Palestinians are discriminated against when it comes to applying for Israeli citizenship.

You cannot have democracy without people being informed and you cannot inform people if you're not allowed to speak. Especially if what we're talking about are unprovable theories about what the world ought to be like.

Edit: it's also extremely worrisome this is your go-to example. Makes you appear as if you grew up in the dark ages. — Benkei

My example isn't drawn from Judaism but from Islam in which blaspheming the prophet Muhammad is a very serious offense. Free speech is quite varied across the western world; in the US supporting Nazism is protected but in Germany it isn't. What qualifies as "hate speech" is a controversial topic.

Is it "democratic" to allow for the promotion and spread of deeply anti-democratic ideologies?

my "non-point" is that we can all sow divisiveness within oppressed communities endlessly if we like. at some point in history has an ashki racially discriminated against a non-ashki? sure? but it can go the other way too with the ashki discriminated against. and no, i don't have to abide by your theory that only certain groups (ashkis, white) can be racist. in any case, jews today are far more worried about the anti-zionism/anti-semitic violence and rhetoric which is a billion times scarier than any jew on jew discrimination.

Did you know that the lighter skinned blacks discriminate against the darker skinned ones? They oppress them and treat them as lower.

None of the laws you've cited indicate that Israel discriminates de jure between Jews and non-Jews.

Freedom of speech trumps dumb fairy tales. — Benkei

I'm already familiar with your attitude towards religion. But if e.g. 90% of the people are in favor of anti-blasphemy laws would you say that it's "democratic" to nullify their will? Or do you just know their true will?

It's not just majority rule; it's also respect of fundamental civil rights and the rule of law. — Benkei

You don't seem to take notice of the inherent contradictions within this idea. What if the majority wants e.g. blaspheming Muhammad to carry a penalty?

If e.g. 90% of a population wants a state to promote and embody a certain religious tradition how "democratic" is to tell them no -- you must be secular.

Are states not within their rights to strive to maintain a certain demographic balance or would that be apartheid?

BTW Greece does favor those with Greek ancestry for citizenship.

I believe that a state favouring one religion above others is inherently discriminatory and should progress into an actual democracy instead of the Apartheid state it is now. — Benkei

Is a state to promote a certain way of life at all? Or no -- should it stay completely neutral? If a state has a religious character that may be due to democracy; the people may have wanted it. I don't see democracy and a state promoting a certain way of life/ancestral traditions as inherently anti-democratic.

If Israel were to fall it would just become a Muslim state. To impose secularism on a religious population seems undemocratic.

I don't hate Israel. I'm anti- zionist. — Benkei

Do you believe in the preservation or destruction of the Jewish state? If you're an anti-zionist then you ultimately aim at it's destruction. I thought I remembered you saying that you were in support of 1967 borders, but perhaps that was just step one of dismantling Israel.

but at least pursues the ideal of non-discrimination. — Benkei

I would say Israel does pursue the ideal of non-discrimination. Israel has numerous laws that combat discrimination like any western nation. Israel's basic laws include a provision on equalityfor all citizens not just Jews.

Here's some of the anti-discrimination legislation:

Equal Employment Opportunities Law (1988): Prohibits discrimination in employment on various grounds, including gender, age, race, religion, nationality, country of origin, sexual orientation, and more.
Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services, and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law (2000): Ensures that individuals are not discriminated against in access to goods, services, and public places.
Education Law (1953): Mandates equal educational opportunities for all children in Israel.

Never said that. I said that Palestinians have a right to violently resist their occupation but not all violence is permitted.

So according to you then violence against legitimate targets, e.g. government forces, is sanctioned until 1967 borders are returned to? Or until Israel is dismantled? A commitment to 1967 borders would still make you a zionist as it would leave the Jewish state intact.

range from 2:1 to 9:1. — Benkei

Does it even matter much to you? You don't hate Israel bc the casualty count, you hate it bc it is institutionally racist and oppressive and even dead Israeli citizens receive zero sympathy from you. But do you not realize the West is also institutionally racist and oppressive? Oppression and institutional racism are everywhere. They are charges that can be applied anywhere and every country is guilty of it.

Also those murdered on 10/7 were not in the WB; they were in Israel proper (are they still occupiers?). Why do you consider intentional violence against civilians "resistance?" It is just murder.

10,000 dead — Mikie

Can't be that low. I've heard the figure is 6 million. 6 million dead innocent palestinian babies killed by the zionists because they hate palestinians -- especially the babies. in fact, only babies. a holocaust of babies. :death:

Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers

Oh no and they restrain their prisoners? Oh the humanity! :cry:

Do they also commit war crimes by using guns against Hamas? Is shooting a war crime? Or rescuing hostages? How did that make you feel?

Just your daily reminder that Israel is fighting a humane war against a genocidal enemy that kidnapped hundreds of its citizens.

since your feelings triumph because you see lots of stuff being glass. — Mikie

Ah, yes. How could I have overlooked that? Point taken. Thank you, interlocutor. :chin:

Oh I know. Which is why it’s so hilarious. — Mikie

Do you or do you not want to see America fall?

I already said: just go with your feelings and vibes and anecdotes. — Mikie

Because you totally know that the NYPD reporting procedures unlike those idiots (including the police themselves) who bring up this point.

You don't even like the US. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm serious. If you want to see the US fail then your policies and perspectives are perfectly valid. If so just lmk so I'll let it be.

There's been a large gap in crime stats since 2021. Apparently in NYC the police won't even file a crime report for anything short of murder. Many precincts no longer report crime stats.

And would it even matter to you if groups like Hezbollah and MS-13 poured across our border? You don't even like the US. So what if it's enemies come in? Or the massive amount of sex trafficking that Biden's policies allow?

I found it entertaining.

(crime is actually down)

The difference between us is that you just trust stats at face value and leave it at that. Crime data in the US has been manipulated for years for political gain. It's an open secret. I walk into stores and see items locked up due to pervasive shoplifting. I don't recall it being like this a decade or two ago. But that's surely paranoia, right? Crime is lower than ever! :roll:

I've also worked in government so I'm familiar with the drivel. Gotta report something.

In Biden's America "nobody is above the law."

Doesn't matter. Jesus is a character in a book.

What rating & time control? I'm around 1900/2000 level on chess.com at 10 minute. I wouldn't typically mention this in conversation.

I also keep in mind that just because people may talk about frivolous topics doesn't mean that they are that shallow and frivolous. But some are. But not necessarily. I also find that there many different types of intelligences (social, emotional, mental, etc.)

Yet as I get older, I look around to see a lot of passivity, no thinking, no ideas, no passion, no vision, no interests in anything harder than sports or movies or mortgage rates or career advancement, a house, a car, marriage, and some kids. I had to even get on a philosophy forum just for an occasional outlet in this particular area — but it extends to government and education and parenting and health and jobs and money too. I don’t really feel like everyone around me are stupid automata, I just feel like is difficult and busy and people get distracted, are tired from work, etc. — Mikie

Those are safe topics. If people discussed philosophy and politics all the time they'd end up hating each other. Best to keep it safe.

And regarding chess, you sound like a big fish in a small pond. Chess is one of those sports where you'll be humbled quickly no matter how good you are.

This one is the area that I need to work the most on. I usually avoid women in public places (: It is time to get thrown to the wolves. — Bob Ross

My advice: Work on establish comfort, connection & rapport before diving into the "what is your worldview and is it rationally coherent" discussion. :wink:

If you're serious about it pick up the gospels and emulate the character that Jesus describes down to the T.

With the difference that they actually built the houses and worked the farms. — Vera Mont

:vomit:

Guess that makes two of us then.

https://migrant-integration.ec.europa.eu/library-document/institutional-racism-netherlands_en

Sounds like you have apartheid in your backyard.

Jesus Christ that's funny. — Benkei

Can you cite me laws then showing this institutional discrimination? E.g. Are non-Jews barred from voting? Holding positions in government?

Everyone agrees Judaism is a religion. You don't agree with the idea that it is an ethno-religion. Regarding Israel, I believe being Jewish only benefits one when it comes to immigration -- countries like Greece and Spain have similar rules where it's easier to emigrate there if you have it in your ancestry.

But under the law, once citizens, Jew and non-Jew are equal.

Now you're just making your own personal definition. I can do the same. To be a Christian, one must have known Christ personally while he was still alive.

Yes, just as Christian and Muslims determine their own definitions. We don't insist that they use our logic. Ultimately self-definition will be decided by that community.

I'm sympathetic to native american claims to get back some parts of the land to which they are indigenous to. It's been extremely destructive to those communities to try to erase that heritage.

Ancestral home means nothing because it's a religious claim. — Benkei

A civilizational claim. And also apparently you have no regard for native american claims either.

a longstanding tie to a biological, ethnic, or cultural identity, along with a historical connection to a particular region, could be used as such to define a people who have identified with it for generations? — schopenhauer1

Sure? Jewish self-definition is derived from a sort of religious reasoning formed and discussed over thousands of years. Any outsider who takes issue with it should be ignored until he engages the reasoning behind it.

And thanks for the informative post.