Presence is not possession and confers no rights. — Vera Mont

It is the ancestral homeland of the Jews making the Jews indigenous to it. It might not matter to you, but it matters to them.

That's a tradition, a history, a memory - not an excuse for carnage. — Vera Mont

Yes they can go to Africa and be ruled by Africans. Muslims can go to ~50 countries and be ruled by Muslims. Jews are lucky to have one. Israel has already survived several wars which would have destroyed it had it lost.

Barred from Jerusalem after the third major revolt. — Vera Mont

There were two waves: One in 70 and one in 135. There were Jews who remained in the region and have had a continuous presence since antiquity. These Jews were still subject to persecution under Arab rulers. So the violence is not just due to the "occupation" but rather occurred well before it and the heightened the need for a Jewish state.

If you lose a big one, you lose the land you're living on - which is ancestral through some finite number of generations, — Vera Mont

Yes they were expelled from their ancestral homeland in 135 AD. They lost possession of their ancestral homeland.

There is no large contingent of African Americans descending on Ghana to claim it as their ancestral home — Vera Mont

Yet if they do have an ancestral homeland it is in Africa.

It's not their ancestral homeland. That's an idiotic religious claim that anybody that isn't a Jew doesn't recognise. — Benkei

Question: Let's say a group of Jews are expelled by the Romans from Judea in 135 AD. The community goes to Alexandria and continues to preserve those traditions and maintains its distinctiveness & maries among itself. In 235 AD is Israel still their ancestral homeland or have they lost it? Are they now indigenous to Alexandria? How about 335 AD?

And what do we say about African Americans? Indigenous to a Georgia plantation?

And it would be great if you'd recognise that Israel does exactly the same

It does not as Israeli soldiers do not go from house to house murdering Palestinians because they are Palestinians. It does not commit rapes. It does not take Palestinians hostage and bring them to rape dungeons. It does not aim for civilians. If it did there would be no more Palestinians.

Do you have sympathy for a criminal when the victim hurts him? — Benkei

Is this a good comparison for, say, a 7 year old Israeli child who happened to be born and raised near the Gaza border or anywhere in Israel? For this "crime" they are considered valid targets by Hamas.

I can sympathize with the persons that were attacked on 7 Oct. because on a individual level they are innocent. — Benkei

Good. That's what matters. Individuals murdered. Not killed; murdered. Slaughtered in house to house violence deliberately on their ancestral homeland.

But Israel as a political entity doesn't get my sympathy. — Benkei

Fine with me I don't feel sympathy or empathy towards states or abstract entities either. It is individuals that matter.

There wouldn't be any resistance if there wasn't injustice — Benkei

Hamas openly seeks Jerusalem as its capital according to the charter. There will be resistance as long as that is not the case.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere if you have zero sympathy for the victims on the Israeli side. Dead Israelis might just be faceless oppressors to you but they are my people. You dehumanize Israelis.

You never view them as people who suffer. Two intifadas and 10/7 mostly directed towards random civilians. Palestinian "resistance" has a habit of that. There is no excuse for those "tactics."
— BitconnectCarlos

No, oppressors don't get sympathy.
-- Benkei

No need to continue.

When you cite stats it would be nice if you had a source.

I'm quite concerned that President Biden is now attempting to imprison his main political rival and doesn't even seem to deny such a thing. A very dangerous precedent that may very well come back to bite the Democrats.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4v7I97wKImc

Enough said.

These stats from the Gaza Health ministry? Or does violence towards zionists just not count as "violence"?

I've just accepted the double standards as a fact of life. A black police officer was murdered during those protests and not a peep from the George Floyd crowd.

Let me know when they start razing blocks and destroying stores.

Anyone notice the lack of rioting and looting after the Trump verdict? No shops smashed; just a cool $50m raised for Trump. I can't help but notice the stark difference in tactics (violence) between the two sides and it seems like America has noticed this too - betting markets favor Trump.

The fatality ratio is about 1:1 combatant:civilian so historically quite good and not at all unreasonable.

Is Israel not allowed to bomb them? Is that the main atrocity? Or is shooting them also an atrocity?

It's not tu quoque Hamas is stealing the aid and preventing its distribution.

Being oppressed does not make one good or right. Tens of thousands of Israeli civilians have also been displaced by rockets so they are also refugees.

Is this a psychology forum or a philosophy one?



Weasel words by a biased organization. :yawn:

What do you make of the fact that Hamas steals most of the aid and keeps it for themselves? Or sells it at a much higher price? The problem with the aid is the distribution. Israel can send it in but Hamas takes it.

How many have actually died of starvation? Are we able to get facts on this?

I've started from the reasonable (or at least in my opinion a reasonable) stance that Israel should show restraint against civilians and civilian targets like the US did while it was fighting against Al Qaeda and ISIS. — ssu

It absolutely has and I've seen Israel avoid conducting strikes because there were civilians around. I've seen them ship in boatloads of aid. I've seen then provide medical care for wounded Palestinians. Israel has shown restraint.

you didn't hear about civilians starving to death in Iraq or accusations of it used as a tool by the US while fighting the insurgents. — ssu

There were also rumors going around of the IDF raping. These were shown to be false. Also rumors of the IDF harvesting organs from palestinians. When much of the world hates you they'll throw any charge at you. It doesn't matter whether it's true; only that it sticks in the mind of others. If you charge someone or some place with enough crimes of such a gruesome nature, truth doesn't really matter anymore. The association is already there.

Anyone who takes hostages to place them in rape (and torture) dungeons qualifies as an enemy to me -- an enemy of humanity.

If Israel is committing war crimes so has everyone and maybe war just is war crimes; you do shoot at the enemy, after all.

You're okay with killing any number of incidental civilians who happen to live in a town or a city block — Vera Mont

No. Modern civilized armies strive to avoid civilian casualties. But they still are inevitable in any war.

And their deaths are on the hands of the enemy who breached a border and murdered ~1000 of that country's civilians. And took hostages which are repeatedly subject to sexual abuse.

This is patently false. Hamas has signalled being open for negotiations along the 1967 borders since 2017. — Benkei

I want your house, Benkei. I'll be open to negotiations once you grant me your living room. Will you negotiate with me?

BTW I have several of your countrymen/ethnic group as hostages who I do unspeakable things to. Now cede your territory and we can begin negotiations.

No, oppressors don't get sympathy. — Benkei

Do you have any sympathy for Chinese victims of Muslim terror? How about 9/11 victims? Oppressors, right? Just chickens coming home to roost?

I doubt they need much instruction beyond the regular Israeli bombardments. — Vera Mont

Israel's targets are terrorists, the targets of terror are very often civilians. Their governments reward them for this. What is Israel supposed to do? You tell me.

That's a bit of a chicken and egg story and the Palestinians can say the same.

This is an interesting point that should be followed up on. My question would then be what % of Israelis in the public and in the Israeli government seek to annex Gaza and the WB into "greater Israel?" Gaza was not historically Israel.

There's no need to go back to the 30s and 40s but if we do the Grand Mufti was an extremely ugly figure. Good Israelis try to put this behind them. Different times now.

Given that, if you say Israel is a viable negotiation partner then obviously the other side is as well. — Benkei

You can't expect a country to negotiate with a group that wants to annex it and denies its right to exist. Hamas isn't asking for reform; it's asking for an end to Jewish self-rule.

In other words, Zionists are acting like a bunch of pussies and pretending to be a victim. — Benkei

You never view them as people who suffer. Two intifadas and 10/7 mostly directed towards random civilians. Palestinian "resistance" has a habit of that. There is no excuse for those "tactics."

And in an era of WMDs large modern armies don't ensure survival.

No, not at all. Hamas horribly oppresses their own and teaches them to hate.

They're already able to import that. Palestinians receive billions in aid yearly. Much of it just goes to the Hamas leadership who are themselves billionaires. Gaza isn't destitute either; there were many luxury hotels and really nice cars there before 10/7.

Israel (and Egypt) monitors for dangerous materials but humanitarian aid is fine.

Viable = too weak to get even the minimum of their requirements? — Vera Mont

It's not a matter of weakness.

If Gaza became a state Hamas would be able to import whatever it liked.

When Gallup last asked Israelis the same question in 2017, 30% believed it would be possible, while the majority (57%) said it would not. — Benkei

The Israelis currently see a two state solution as infeasible because of the current palestinian gazan government/populace which are committed to the destruction of Israel. Give Israel a viable negotiating partner that isn't committed to its destruction and Israel will talk.

The Palestinians reject a two state solution because they are opposed to Israel regardless of government style. Jewish self-rule is a slap in the face.

Even though the Palestinians don't have their own state their rule is basically autonomous. Hamas controls Gaza proper, Israel does not control Gaza proper. They manage their own internal affairs and they are not Israeli puppets.

According to the Arab/Palestinian narrative, the tragedy begins with the Nakba. The occupation, according to Hamas at least, begins then. Jerusalem & Tel Aviv are considered occupied Palestine.

From ChatGPT:

Approximately 58% of Palestinians in the West Bank and 62% in Gaza support the continuation of conflict with Israel until all of historic Palestine is regained, even if a two-state solution is achieved. This reflects a significant portion of the population desiring the reclamation of all territories historically identified as Palestine, indicating a preference for a one-state solution over a two-state solution among many Palestinians​ (The Washington Institute)​​ (The Times of Israel)

When? — ssu

Before this current war on 10/7. Palestinian children shows and schools have been inculcating hate for decades. I don't ever recall Israeli television shows teaching Israelis to hate their neighbor or glorifying martyrdom. Israel does however have a beautiful three-tiered cemetery that commemorates its war dead.

I think you should notice how Israel is changing too. — ssu

Always open to hearing new info.

Help me understand why it is SPECIFICALLY Wittgenstein where I see this?? — schopenhauer1

Well, I took a class on Wittgenstein years ago in undergrad from very much a Wittgensteinian asshole. Early Wittgenstein (Tractatus-era) is very different from the later Philosophical Investigations Wittgenstein. Basically a 180. We studied later Wittgenstein.

I think it partly stems from the fact that Wittgenstein's followers consider his work as brilliant yet underappreciated by mainstream philosophers & academics. Anyway, Wittgenstein challenges an Augustinian approach to language which undergirds or is presupposed by not only by much modern philosophers but in other fields as well.

But it was an interesting class. I remember one day one of the topics we discussed wasn't "did Moses exist" but "what would it mean for Moses to exist?" and this still resonates with me. The biblical Moses does A, B, C, D etc. -- according to the Bible -- that is the "biblical moses." But if he only did e.g. A & C would he still be "Moses?" Or what if his name wasn't even Moses but something else but maybe he did "A"? I think this to myself everytime someone says Moses wasn't a "real."

I'm critical about Israel and the Zionists setting the agenda there because of the power difference and continuous 75 years of human rights abuses and war crimes committed by Israel, whereas Palestinian war crimes are sporadic and reactionary (suicide bombings followed oppression not the other way around). — Benkei

You keep using this word "oppression" but oppression, from the Arab-Muslim perspective, is any Jewish self-determination on that land when it ought to be Muslim land. It was Muslim land previously, after all. Islam already includes Judaism so Judaism is a step backwards from their perspective. I actually do understand them. God has spoken through their prophet Muhammad but the Jews will not accept the revelation. It must be frustrating.

And there is a very long, complicated history of violence that goes back well before the establishment of Israel. From the Jewish perspective things do not begin with Israel. Also palestinian attacks, for whatever reason, are very often against random civilians intentionally. It's as if they're trying to turn the israeli public against their cause and push them more to the right. i do believe this is hamas's strategy.

You do understand that there's a war going on? And yes, there's plentiful of vitriol and hatred with the Palestinian camp. And similar opinions are plenty in the Jewish side too. — ssu

I was talking before the war. You will see Palestinian kindergarten students decked out in terrorist gear murdering Israeli hostages openly for kindergarten graduation ceremonies. You will see Palestinian mothers openly wishing their children become martyrs for palestine. It is inculcated in them from an early age and you see it in their children's shows. We've seen a generation raised on this under Hamas rule in Gaza and earlier. It is just not the same on the Israeli side. There's anger, of course, but it's not the same.

On 10/7 that the murderers rode in joyous. Jubilant. I guess it makes sense: Go have fun robbing, raping and torturing the enemy and worst comes to worst and you die you just go to Heaven as a martyr. Life is short, enjoy it! There is no parallel concept in Judaism. I once saw a Palestinian girl complain how the IDF were cowards who hid behind their tanks because God forbid they actually value their lives. Are the zionists to blame for this mindset? Did the evil Jews inculcate the Palestinians not to care about the value of material life?

Yes such violence degrades. It sows fear and hatred. So the Israeli right rises to power to protect its own. But no Jew is under the belief that all palestinians must either be killed or converted to judaism. judaism is not a religion which seeks to spread/universalize; islam is.

I know you hate Palestinians because you're conditioned by the idiots you surround yourself with but that was a really dumb reply. — Benkei

You don't get what it's like because nobody hates you. No one hates the Dutch. No one raises their children to hate the Dutch. Be thankful you don't have to deal with that, and this begins well before the state of Israel. I don't hate Palestinians but am wary of them. You point the finger at me but I can tell you like muslims more than jews.

Actually, it might be a contributing factor.

Maybe all Palestinian maladies can be blamed on the Jews.

What about the Israeli woman who beats her husband? — Vera Mont

Surely the Jews had a role in this one too.

but both are far more complex than the you have represented. — Vera Mont

I was satirizing a position. Some users will essentially blame all Palestinian maladies on the Jews.

And when a Palestinian man beats his wife it is surely the Jews' fault as well. It's because of the occupation.

Had this plan been agreed to, what exactly does Israel get? A promise of peace and a renunciation of violence from the current Palestinian administration? Would things have changed had this new Palestinian state began importing or creating WMDs? Or what happens if terrorism had continued from a non-government source?

Would I say that the Palestinians have a wicked culture? Well, I don't know what else to call a culture which openly and proudly teaches its children to kill Israelis. Israel should do its best to remove the source of this (the governments which teach it), but even after the war the palestinian people ought to undergo a massive re-education otherwise the same problems will just emerge. You cannot base a culture on the notion that one is entitled to use whatever means necessary to rectify a historical injustice. Arabs and Jews have both been ethnically cleansed and subject to historic injustices, yet life must continue forward.

Nobody has said that this was a warcrime. — ssu

The Geneva convention do prohibit causing environmental damage. Given the political nature of international organizations, it would clearly be no matter to them to e.g. have charged ancient Israel with environmental war crimes while ignoring things like muslims in concentration camps in china. Many "war crimes" like this are surely on the books but prosecution and enforcement are the important matters. If one country is placed under a microscope while others ignored it detracts from the legitimacy.

Nobody is telling that this is "ethnic cleansing". It's when you deliberately move people away against their will in order for make way for your own population. I think this is quite clear.

If the Gazans are removed and Israeli settlers move in then, yes, that is ethnic cleansing. AFAIK Israel has no plans to annex Gaza or more in settlers but we'll have to see.

It's tricky though. If a formerly ethnically cleansed population were to retake their land we could call it both "ethnic cleansing" if the occupier was forced out or fled but also "decolonization."

Biblically speaking, being ethnically cleansed was often interpreted as a sign that something had gone wrong with your own people to have been conquered like that. Sometimes populations get dispossessed due to their own wickedness. Or it could just be God's plan.

I don't damn him, but his interpretation, like the serpent's, is power-centric. He sees that God is the one in charge and he doesn't like that. He doesn't like that God sets rules. He defines freedom in opposition to these rules. He wants to put his own mind and his own conception of reality above everything else due to his own boundless faith in his own reasoning and intellectual capacities. Recognizing God's authority would mean recognizing someone smarter than him -- something beyond him, greater than him. It's an ego thing, which is the exact thing the serpent appeals to with Eve eat the apple, defy God, and you will become great like God.

In the Mesopotamian cosmology the god Marduk emerges dominant after prevailing over his fellow Gods through brute force. Hebrew writers deliberately sought to counter such ideas.

How about for your own actions in war. As I've stated, abiding the laws of war don't hinder you ability to fight an enemy. — ssu

In the 8th century BC Assyria attacked Israel and the biblical account has Israel destroying vegetation and wells to deprive the Assyrian army of resources to sustain their siege. Are such "scorched Earth" tactics a war crime? Maybe the ICJ would have convicted them. Or the UN issued a resolution against it.