Russian Ground Forces consist of only 280 000 troops.
— ssu

That's the number of active duty troops as of 2020 per Wikipedia, but that would include both conscripts and professionals (Russia has both). — SophistiCat

I have done a bit of digging into the numbers, all of which seem to come from US intelligence estimates and refer to troops "in and around" Ukraine, which includes the bases around Ukraine.

For me, these figures represented total personnel of front line soldiers and support personnel.

However, the basic point that however many troops in Ukraine at any given point, it's easy for Russia to rotate troops out of combat for rest and recovery, whereas very difficult for Ukraine will remain true even if 100% of Russia's troops were committed to the war (they would still rotate some percentage at a time for recovery).

The following video also gives a lot of context:



The critical part for understanding Russia's overall doctrine (at least what they are trying to do) is the explanation of the basic organisation of brigade and division.

Basically, they have a divisions that are meant for large scale offensives and permanent defensive positions (i.e. the division, if things go well, can supply itself indefinitely in the field), and then they have smaller brigades that are smaller and mobile with limited sustainability in the field.

(According to the analysts at least) the Russians do not believe in long defensive lines, but rather manoeuvre based warfare including a lot of tactical retreat to inflict losses and then rapidly retake the area in question.

So, however "good" things are going for Russia in terms of absolute losses and relative losses vis-a-vis Ukraine, it makes a lot more sense to me at least what the Russian's basic idea is.

They have "divisions" setup around Kiev and in the south to protect core strategic objectives (Kherson to cross the Dnieper, land-bridge to Crimea, and of course encircling Kiev). Everything else is consistent with this manoeuvre based warfare of brigades that have limited sustainability, so might break through create a salient and then retreat. The sign of a "failed salient" is encirclement of forward forces.

Another interesting part of the video is describing the toppest-top level strategic thinking (again according to them) of the Russian military, which is their belief that any large scale conflict will involve a first phase of basically lot's of missiles and quick strikes at key strategic objectives (and giant air war; but that would apply more to a large air-power such as NATO) and then after that chaotic phase, a second phase of more prolonged warfare, where it is the side that adapts best that will prevail.

So, it definitely appears to me that this doctrine has been put into practice; it's of course up for debate how well it has worked and extremely difficult to evaluate based almost solely on information Ukraine side chooses to public.

They haven't called in reservists yet (by law, that can only be done in wartime, but then again, "law" is a very flexible thing in Russia), but they are actively recruiting. People are being called up under any pretext and asked to sign a contract. — SophistiCat

Yes, this seemed to me extremely likely that they'll just make reservists "full time" and so avoid calling conscripts (who don't want to go) as much as possible.

This may also explain why Putin has put so much effort into arguing Ukraine is already part of Russia, in case they need conscripts they can argue their defending Russian soil.

So the Russians decided to kill Russians outside of Donbass.... Makes things more even, right? — Olivier5

Russian's really don't like the original Nazi's or neo-Nazi's, and the Russian government nor the Dombass breakaway regions have any evidence of any institutional integration with neo-Nazi groups nor any evidence of tolerating such groups existing in the first place.

We've already dealt with this strawman and also deflection from the self-described neo-Nazi's in Ukraine.

Says who, and to whom? There's no grievance without an aggrieved party. — Olivier5

Russian's are legitimately aggrieved by the neo-Nazi's killing Russians in Dombass. You can engage in apologetics for the neo-Nazi's, but that doesn't change the Russian's perception of them being neo-Nazi's and their perception of them killing Russians in Dombass and elsewhere since 2014.

But, you clearly haven't understood what the basic concept even is. I'll need to continue tomorrow, but maybe someone else will re-explain it to you

It is useful also for the non-intended purpose of showing how immoral you guys are. — Olivier5

Things are perhaps not as black and white as you believe.

Understanding the history, nuances, perspective and what in negotiation we call "legitimate grievance" is essential for a diplomatic solution. Likewise, the evaluation of the military situation influences whether one believes diplomacy is even "necessary" for your aims, and, if so, then what a reasonable deal would be considering the military situation (of which, we don't really know the true state of things on the ground, but need to make deductions from larger events and considerations).

Recognizing someone's legitimate grievance does not mean agreeing everything they say.

To bring up the example of police negotiators, if they are talking to someone who they are certain is the suspected murder, and the suspect asks for a coffee ... they are likely to provide it as it's a legitimate grievance to be denied a coffee as a police captive, likewise food, and, likewise, indeed, the murder itself can be motivated by legitimate grievances and police negotiators will recognize that to get the suspect to talk and admit to the murder and so wrap up the case with far less resources as well as satisfy their own and other people's desire to at least understand the motivations and events.

And, it's these police murder suspect negotiators videos that you can find plenty online, as it becomes public evidence in trial, that are probably the best examples of negotiation that are accessible. Corporations and governments also have good negotiators ... but they tend not to film it and post it online afterwards.

One of the key themes in these police negotiations is responding to legitimate grievances and opposing non-legitimate grievances (for example: avoiding a question). It's the only way to have a constructive conversation with a counter party regardless of the moral context. Even higher stakes is hostage situations which can be available online as well.

So, in the situation in Ukraine, just so happens that neo-Nazi's is a legitimate grievance. Now, as already discussed with @ssu a response to legitimate grievance doesn't mean "agreeing"; a legitimate response to a legitimate grievance can be proving it's not true, or then exaggerated or then arguing about it; recognition just means acknowledging it's important for the other person and that they have valid feelings about the issue that warrant engagement, not-recognizing would be just ignoring it (for example, maybe there simply is no coffee left and I can't have a coffee; ok, that would be a legitimate response and good faith if it's true, but not-recognizing my grievance about a coffee would be just to completely ignore my asking for a coffee). So, EU could "prove" there are no neo-Nazi's and the Azov brigade didn't do any active fighting as a paramilitary force, would be one response, just bad faith if there are neo-Nazi's and Azov brigade was doing parallel paramilitary fighting in Dombass outside a legitimate chain of command. Likewise, Russia's grievance about being threatened by NATO with nuclear Armageddon is also a legitimate grievance, as is our grievance of Russia's threat to us of nuclear Armageddon.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure that on the basics, we agree. Maybe we differ on strategies for dealing with bullies, but we're still on a dead rock hurtling through nowhere on the way to nowhere for no reason.

As we pass into oblivion we whisper into the darkness: "we did the best we could..." — frank

Very possible out positions are close. If you're sympathetic to @ssu position, then we are mostly debating different sides of the issue. Obviously he recognizes the Russians could win, and I recognize the Ukrainians could win, just by some big surprise we don't know about. My analysis is mostly based on the assumption that the arms Ukrainians have can't really assault Russian positions.

And, I'm sure with your experience you experience of the true scale of the carnage and trauma; if more can be avoided by talking then I think that should be attempted, and talk requires mutual understanding, so, in this case, understanding the Russian perspective as well as Ukrainian.

Of course a stalemate is possible, or peace deal happening at anytime, and who really "won" is up for a debate. A good peace deal mid-war, both sides can claim they won. For instance, both Soviet Union and Finland could make a legitimate claim to having "won" in WWII, and it's that kind of peace deal that is more stable than a WWI armistice type deal that humiliates one side.

I do indeed hope we both can say we do the best we can.

I don't have any righteous rage. This is nothing new. Same shit different day. — frank

Ok, well then re-imagine my little bully story but you're not motivated to do anything at all about the situation except for some purely academic analysis on the internet.

Although the bully analogy is useful for the intended purpose of imagine I tell you guys I got a whole group of marines going to back you guys up, totally for sure, we're buddies, to go take on that bully. And then you guys channel your righteous rage that this bully is also a rapist or will soon be a rapist, and go to beat down on him (by which you mean me and my marine buddies that can easily do so).

Obviously, first you just start just pissing him off with symbolic gestures, like an SS battalion emblem as even though he's a bully he really hates neo-Nazi's as they killed his gandma ... ok, you pissed him off and he starts coming at you, and you guys start backing up like the raised arm batman meme waiting for me and my marine buddies to jump in front of you and take care of business, any moment now ... any day now ... gonna happen ... we're gonna do this. This is it. Today's the day. Any moment now.

Instead, my marine buddies and me toss you a few sticks to defend yourselves, which you totally have righteous cause to do and we get crazy mad likes for backing you up where it counts (to us personally in our ability to "slay puss", as us tough guys refer to copulation): social media.

That would be the analogy in evaluating the NATO's moral position. Definitely NATO starting "the process" with Ukraine and Georgia was a "we got your back bro" statement ... or then a deceptive tactic to bait Russia into a war to restart a cold war at their expense. One way to tell: does NATO actually have either Georgia's or Ukraine's back?

While you ponder that question, what "having someone's back means" (only talk and slipping them a shank in a fight they'll lose count?) ... perhaps consider there are also two sides to the story. How are we sure it's not Ukraine that's the real bully refusing to let people have their "right" to democratic self determination?



Deep cover Russian agent social media provocateurs?

So NATO is careful about who joins them as well, some sort of a balance. — FreeEmotion

Exactly why NATO didn't just let Ukraine in a month ago when a invasion "might" happen and "NATO's Ukrainian friends" could have easily been helped without any loss of life at all.

NATO can't have it both ways and say they care "oh, so, so much about Ukrainians", enough to supply weapons and expend the massive political energy to sell Germany on F-35's and chnage the entire posture and financial position of NATO overnight (which doesn't save a single Ukrainian life, but is obviously the priority and 99% all the actual big boy talk intra-NATO) ... but doesn't care enough about Ukraine to let them in the alliance, because that would be irresponsible (so why bait them with that in the first place again? someone please remind me), which is basically what the argument is, nor put much energy to negotiate in the interest of any civilians or Ukraine itself (just cheer on social media for Ukrainians to die to demonstrate the effectiveness of NATO weapons for the purposes of the arms sales that have already happened, are happening and will happen due to NATO pumping in arms into Ukraine to demonstrate their effectiveness and simply leads to Russia to escalate indirect fire, the reasonable tactical response to infantry that make themselves a nuisance--that any commander on the entire planet, including every single NATO officer, would do without question, which causes more collateral damage (which last I hear NATO doesn't even bother keep count of) that can easily be used to justify sending more shoulder launched systems to cause even more escalation and prolong the war causing vastly more death and trauma to, most of all, children.)

To put it bluntly, joining NATO gives a nation absolute impunity, because any military action, whether sanctioned by the UN Security council or not, with our without just cause, cannot be responded to by Russia in kind because that would mean attacking a NATO member, which is tantamount to attacking them all, including the United States.

This was Putin's point when he suggested that if Ukraine joined NATO, they could attempt to take back Crimea and he would not be able to do anything about it. — FreeEmotion

That's why countries want into NATO; way easier to be defended by the largest military block on the planet.

Come to think of it, a good strategy would be for everyone to join NATO and paralyze Russia's ability to use their military ever again. Whom is Russia going to have left to attack? China? — FreeEmotion

The problem with this is that, sooner or later, in particular unstable regional powers, but generally speaking, diplomacy breaks down and push comes to shove. May also not be clear who fired the first shot.

By letting in unstable nations with their own regional ambitions, if not today perhaps tomorrow, then war inevitably follows and NATO won't actually respond to some cluster-fuck regional shit-show. I.e. in NATO, plenty of nations will abuse the position, NATO won't do anything as otherwise it will just encourage more abuse, and so the Article 5 will be undermined and the alliance start to fall apart in a practical sense.

How does the civilian population figure in all this? Surrounding a city and asking the civilians to leave seems like a good strategy but the combatants are unlikely to let civilians leave, when they make avoiding civilian deaths more difficult, and also, combatants become civilians when they drop their weapons. Isn't it reasonable to expect civilians to be prevented from leaving a battle zone? — FreeEmotion

What mattes in the rules of war is who's to blame. Russia also has video cameras and as soon as the war ends will start to justify their military decisions based on the intelligence that they had.

If Russia wanted to kill civilians it could just drive a thermobaric multiple rocket artillery launcher up to the front lines and fire everything it has into a city center, or just carpet bomb cities relentlessly.

However, it's not doing that, and so will state that it conducted the war to minimize civilian casualties, although some collateral damage cannot be avoided (same as the US says), and that it's offers of civilian corridors were good faith and maybe will publish video of Ukrainians breaking these cease fires. Russia may also simply prosecute / discipline some soldiers who "broke it's rules of engagements"and pay reparations for those "errors". From there is will get all technical legal all sorts of details needing investigation, and, therefore, drop out of the news cycle and that will be that.

Well, 90% of 280 000 is 252 000, hence even if you take into account the National Guard units fighting in Ukraine, not so much is committed to Ukraine. But it's logical that they cannot withdraw troops for example from Kaliningrad and leave other places totally void of troops. — ssu

Ok, well we'll see, but I have not seen any similar analysis that Russia is engaging a majority of it's total force.

Or then start calling in the reserves. — ssu

Yes, Putin committed to not conscript anyone for the war, but there will be plenty of reservists wanting to become full time soldiers. The Kremlin does not have a short term war financing problem so it can simply start hiring more troops, especially pre-trianed (to some degree) reservists. Especially with the sanctions causing deep recession in Russia there is certainly plenty of people looking for a job.

Of course, this doesn't instantly replenish the force, but mitigates losses and frees up existing full time soldiers to replace with new recruits.

Point is, Russia can "tap" their reserve force without technically using any reserves, as it can just convert reservists to professional full time soldiers.

No, the fact is that dictators and authoritarian regimes are basically scared of their own security apparatus and hence they divide the apparatus to various competing organizations. — ssu

Agreed, some force is necessary to protect the Kremlin from revolution.

I'm not accusing you of that! I'm only making the point that it's wrong to say only 1/10 of Russian forces are deployed to Russia. There isn't the 9/10 to be deployed there. — ssu

I was just responding to your mention Putin as a dictator, which I initially interpreted as just moral condemnation, so wanted to make that part clear. However, if it was just to point out the units committed to protect Putin, then I agree with your point.

However, we seem to be on the same page. I'm not saying 9/10'ths could be thrown into the fight.

My point is that the troops can be rotated out of the battle space. This is a large strategic advantage.

First, front line companies, or units, or individual soldiers (depending on the situation) can be rotated back to rearguard / Russia / Crimea for just basic sleep recovery and then just sent back to the front line if needs be or then for the next company to rest. Just as even US soldiers in the Middle East do some patrol or fight a battle and then rest up in the "green zone"; they are still in a war zone but have safe space to rest and aren't literally sitting in a trench for their entire tour. It maybe counter productive to send soldiers to relax on the beach, but sleep is a basic need and difficult to do with constant explosions.

Whatever the force committed to Ukraine, it's not some absolute figure, but just "at any one time" Russia can support so many troops in the war. If companies become ineffective they can be rotated out with a fresh company with just a few train rides. For example, let's say 35% of troops of some base have been requisitioned for the war in Ukraine, as things go on, they will start to be rotated out with the fresh troops still on base; still 35% from that base committed to the war, but different people. Keep in mind many professional soldiers "want" to go to war and use their training and get experience and have stories to tell. The morale level of conscripts sent in on the first day by surprise (as mentioned, so Ukraine doesn't mobilize) is not indicative of the moral of the entire Russian military; which also can explain why Russia didn't organize it's best (as that would signal imminent invasion and preemptive mobilization).

Likewise, lightly injured soldiers can be sent back to base as part of the garrison and maybe have some productive things to do in an arm sling, and so can be replaced with a fresh soldier.

Lastly, soldier that die can be replaced by recruiting more soldiers.

The point of this fact is that a war of attrition with Russia needs to take their overall force into account.

Of course, not that Russia is willing to fight until the destruction of their whole army, but that their overall force outside the battle space makes "force repair" far easier in a purely military sense. As with the United States, likely the political tolerance for losses is reached far ahead of a purely military tolerance (mainly due to nuclear weapons, Russia doesn't actually need to fear an opportunistic invasion by a neighboring empire or upstart, unlike basically any time before nuclear weapons).

Just add up the figures and you do get the nearly one million. 280 000 + 340 000 + 200 000 +.... — ssu

The analysis I've seen of the Russian overall military position is they are still garrisoning their usual border positions, in particular close to Georgia but also in the North-East and West.

I have seen no one add up the personnel they're committing in the way you describe.

However, one must include their reservists as part of their overall force and their stockpiles of armor and artillery etc. The proper way to do things is weight each person / equipment in terms of battle readiness and effectiveness.

I agree maybe 10% is too low ... but nearly 90% committed to Ukraine seems too high.

What has to be understood that Putin truly is a dictator, and just like Saddam or Ghaddafi, he is scared about the Armed Forces being a monolithical power in Russia. — ssu

Neither me nor @Isaac or @Benkei (to the extent he's criticizing NATO / EU as well) have defended Putin's decisions morally.

We are simply being realistic that we cannot convince Putin to just give up on the war and turn Russia into an participatory devolved direct democracy somewhat loose confederation of cantons as a resolution to the problem of Ukrainians dying and children dying and being traumatized for life.

And, we are simply being realistic that, regardless of what we think of Putin or his moral character, using NATO planes in the air and troops on the ground is simply not going to happen due to nuclear weapons.

Does this mean Ukrainians don't have a right to fight? None of us have said so.

However, if you're going to fight in a war for your country, you'd probably want that fighting to actually serve your country and not be one big NATO arms demonstration.

If Ukrainians have a chance of winning (which we've been debating in good faith and I'm not saying your wrong; Russia itself orchestrated the most famous and consequential counter offensive in all of history ... so, maybe it's possible with weapons and tactics we've never seen before) that obviously affects the evaluation of the purpose of continued fighting.

"A bit more fighting" might increase leverage and get a better deal in a lost situation, or it might simply solicit a far worse deal.

It's precisely because Germany fought for 4 years instead of only to Christmas, that the allies imposed the humiliating and financially impossible Armistice, as a retaliation for not giving up sooner, which then resulted in Hitler proposing to "fix that" and then the cost of fighting to the death (including children soldiers) was the partition and essentially direct administration of Germany for many decades.

It does not go without saying that further resistance and "holding out" as long as possible is better for your country in this sort of situation--maybe, or maybe not.

On top of the military situation, there is a political situation. Even if Ukraine can't actually stop Russia relentlessly achieving it's objective, there is of course political consequences to Russia for continuing the war effort, mainly the sanctions. To evaluate this we need to know how the average Russian sees things, which we have little information on so decisions based on them "rising up" any day now is, at the least, a big risk to take.

The biggest sanction we could do is shutting off the gas ... but we're not about to do that.

Russian Ground Forces consist of only 280 000 troops. If you have 190 000 in Ukraine, that's basically it. Putin is not sending the personnel of the Air Force or the Navy or the Strategic Rocket forces to fight it out in urban combat in the streets of Kyiv. — ssu

... I've heard a lot of Russia analysts mention this 1/10th figure.



Russia could also use it's conscripts and reserves, even if it's saying it won't right now.

There's also number of tanks and equipment etc. as part of the "force".

But, from my understanding, the personnel committed to Ukraine currently include logistics and support units. Looking at Aljazera's info graphic it seems to me 1/10th is a reasonable assessment.

Keep in mind a significant amount of Russia's military hardware will be in fixed forward positions, that it could go get and move into Ukraine if it wanted too.

Except for cruise missiles, Russia is not about to just "run out" of anything else anytime soon.

But maybe this figure is wrong, but you'll need to breakdown your analysis, as clearly 10% and 90% are pretty far apart.

Are you advocating that NATO nukes Moscow to save Mariupol? Because that would be a bit odd, ligically speaking, to kill millions of civilians here in order to save thousands of civilians there. — Olivier5

I just explained it pretty clearly. The whole basis of Russia wanting Ukraine not to join NATO and commit to neutrality, is because NATO has nukes.

Hence NATO has this leverage vis-a-vis Ukrainian neutrality because it has nuclear weapons.

I just explained that "leverage" rarely means "threaten" in a negotiation. Indeed, the only time you directly threaten someone in a negotiation is when they don't already understand what you're capable of and so not already acting in a rational way according to that.

Peace and resolutions are usually obtained through constructive dialogue focused on positive outcomes, with what people can do to each other if negotiations break down something everyone should already know because they put at least some effort into understanding the situation they are in.

This strategy is discussed on Fox news, just saying the public is aware (or some of the public). — FreeEmotion

Yes, when I say "Western media" I mean the dominant narrative, but there's definitely exceptions.

And, of course, even the journalists are sometimes clearly not believing anymore the assurances Ukraine is "winning in some way". I saw this video the other day of a guy explaining to these two news anchors that NATO is working on supplying Ukraine with Russia's S-400 system, and explaining how great a system that is ... and news anchors were clearly just like WTF is going on.

You don't really pay attention, do you? — Olivier5

NATO and EU represent more nukes, more conventional military power (both direct and indirect by supplying Ukraine), and more economic power than China. Therefore, they have more leverage than China in the situation.

China also has leverage, and I hope they too use it to deescalate and help end the conflict, but to say China has more leverage than NATO in a military situation ... is to say Russia fears China's military power more, which is untrue.

Russia needs China to deal with the military leverage (pumping in ATGM's and Manpads) and, even more so it's almost not comparable, the economic leverage of pulling Western corporations out of Russia all of a sudden, requiring substitutes for those technologies and equipment and services in the short term.

However, if China had more economic leverage to begin with ... it would have already out-competed all those Western firms using the "efficiency" of the communist approach to capitalism.

This is what this whole nuclear escalation situation has been about ... that Russia has nukes, and so too NATO. And it is this nuclear standoff that creates intense motivation for Russia to want Ukraine not to join NATO in the first place (if NATO did not have nuclear weapons, and Russia did, Russia may not be so concerned about NATO).

You do not understand how negotiation works.

Leverage does not mean "threaten", it could but it could equally mean what you have that the counter party wants, with only implied threats that go along with not reaching a resolution (which in most negotiations don't exist as you just go to the next supplier, bring in the next interviewee, if you fail to reach a deal with the current one).

Russia wants a commitment that Ukraine doesn't join NATO, that's the biggest chip in play, and not only could NATO give this commitment directly it can also pressure Zelensky to accept that (for instance, by informing him he isn't getting into NATO anyways nor getting a NATO no-fly-zone).

It's the biggest chip in play because NATO also has a whole bunch of nuclear weapons. That's the basic geo-political question being sorted out in the Ukraine war: how far is both Russia and NATO willing to escalate to a war, and at one point does escalation go nuclear. For example, pumping in ATGM's and Manpads is an escalation, in response to Russia's escalation of invading the entire country, but that was not sufficient to go nuclear ... but, seems everyone agrees, the next escalation by NATO of a no-fly-zone would likely be responded to first with tactical nuclear weapons, first in Ukraine and also maybe in the air to take out superior NATO planes the easy way, and then maybe even in space as a giant EMP, which then means NATO can only respond to this escalation with tactical nukes of it's own, which can easily destroy all the Russian positions in Ukraine, leaving Russia with the only "viable" (from a military perspective) way of responding to that with a strategic nuclear strike on NATO cities inviting a similar philosophy about that.

Leverage is what you have or what you can do, you don't literally have to say it in a negotiation.

Russia is a aware that NATO has nuclear weapons. One thing Russia wants is better protection from those weapons, which Ukraine joining NATO doesn't accomplish, and so this is part of NATO's leverage in the situation.

Continuing my analysis of the military situation, which is obviously relevant to make decisions about it.

Again, only Ukrainian commanders can know if they have military objectives that can be feasibly attained.

Diplomacy is then informed by this military situation. If you are losing a war, you have less and less leverage as the war goes on. Hence, if one wants Ukrainians to selfless sacrifice themselves and their country to bleed Russia and create a new cold war, then you need to convince both Ukrainians and the whole world that they are winning, even if you know they are losing.

However, obviously NATO and EU also knows Ukraines chances, so Western media repeating over and over the idea Ukraine is "winning" is ... maybe true, or then maybe a lie to justify pumping more arms into Ukraine.

For, the moment the Western Media says that Ukraine has lost militarily the immediate followup question is that "isn't sending more arms into a lost situation creating more bloodshed for other purpose and also a 'low-blow' to the Russians that will be retaliated against us sooner or later" (if you think the Russians will forget ... you haven't met many Russians). And, indeed, the entire purpose of the rules of war is that fighting is done with honor and integrity and rationally based to protect civilians, to avoid cycles of retaliation. Regardless of who is morally / politically, correct, one side wins and one side loses in a war, and fighting with honour avoids drawing things out longer than it needs to be (sometimes decades) which then create cycles of retaliation and no peaceful building.

Sure, the Taliban eventually "won" ... but are Afghan civilians really better off due to all the cowardly civilian-clothed ambushes and suicide bombings the Taliban needed to win an insurgency?

Which is an exemplary case, for whatever we think of the morality of the US invasion of Afghanistan (who had nothing really to do with 911), imagine the state of Afghanistan today if the Taliban followed the rules of war and accepted defeat and there was no insurgency? Regardless of the initial war and it's reasons, imagine what 20 years of peace would have built in Afghanistan. So, Taliban are certainly morally responsible for that outcome even if the US invasion not justified to begin with ... but, of course we know ahead of time there will be an insurgency and Jihadist fighters aren't going to follow our little rule book, so US is responsible for the outcome as well on that account.

So, a useful contrast in terms of what the rules of war are even about in the first place, but also Taliban insurgency serves as a contrast to conventional warfare. The Taliban did not win a single conventional style battle against NATO, and didn't "win" in the end in any military sense, just tired NATO out essentially.

Both Afghanistan insurgency and first person shooter games, it seems to be most people online base their understanding of the Ukrainian conflict.

This basis of understanding leads to, for example, the narrative of the day that "tough guy" foreign fighters are going to arriving in Ukraine and that matters; as you just need a bunch of tough guys with riffles and shoulder launched missiles to "do tough guy shit" and win battles. The mental image seems to be that tough guys can go out with a riffle and a bottle of Jameson and "find the enemy" and shoot them.

First misconception with this mental image, is that you mostly don't see the enemy at all in conventional warfare, at least not in the sense that you can then just shoot them with a riffle.

Conventional warfare is not fought on the basis of tough guys, although they can play a role, but is mostly a positional battle between artillery and the logistics to supply that artillery. It is a "system" and not a individual first person shooters bravely fucking up the enemy.

The core thing first person shooter games lack as a basis to understand real warfare is the mortar. Of course, you could have a mortar team in a first person shooter game, but it would be insanely boring to be on said mortar team. Which is why in every single conventional battle, pretty much anywhere on the world, you will at least find assault riffles and mortars even in the poorest military engagements (at least on the winning side).

The system of mortars and rifles is already insanely more dangerous than just assault riffles, and you can't just "throw a bunch of tough guys together" and work a mortar team. It takes real training and skill on several levels.

On television we sometimes see soldiers casually dropping mortars into tubes that go off and explode somewhere, but this is not the whole "team" and, hopefully, they aren't just firing in the general direction of the enemy but actually at something. The whole process starts with an observer and his communications side-kick, who sneak around and find a target. If all goes well the observer figures out where the target is on the map, the communications side-kick then gets that information to the calculator guy, usually at the command post wherever it is but he can also be just hiding under makeshift umbrella in the rain. The "gold standard" of communication in this context is a wired line that sends (little) signals, but could also be just communicated by sneak. Anyways, the calculator guy works out the direction and the distance, takes into account wind speed and rain, and therefore the angle and additional powder / high explosives (mortars go like 20 feet with just the shotgun shell that sets them off), and whoever is in command approves the strike, and then this information is relayed to the team running the actual mortars. The actual fire team then needs to work out how to get the mortars in the right direction and angle (this is not some trivial task, and starts with setting up a guide stick as a reference direction, but sight on a mortar is not fixed in space and so moving the mortar around moves it off the guide-line which needs to be compensated for), and then the mortars are backed with powder / high-explosive required, pins removed and away they go.

Obviously, this whole process is in the context of some officer having some workable plan, we hope.

Now, the difference in accuracy between a good mortar team and a bad mortar team, and the difference in the observer (of which the whole process depends) not-getting-killed first and getting-the-enemy-killed first, and the time to setup, camouflage and setup a adequate defense of the mortar battery / escape plan, is really immense. A good mortar team can not only avoid getting killed, but can achieve the accuracy of the mortar, which on relatively short distances on a windless day can be a few meters.

Observer can also observe where rounds land and so send back corrective instructions (which are then very quick to process).

There are also other weak links in the chain such as the communications guys and calculator guys.

Point is, takes a lot of training. However, the result is that indirect vertical-ish fire can be brought down on an enemy position such as directly into their trenches. Also, mortars going off in the general vicinity (fire for effects) causes people to hide and the opportunity to maneuver or then tactically retreat.

Mortars can also fire other kinds of ordinance like anti-tank mortars, anti-other things, and giant flares that case a shadow at several kilometres. When assaulting a position at night, what feels save may not actually be safe if a artificial sun goes off overhead and you're totally visible and come under immediate mortar fire. We don't see the US using flares in an insurgency as A. they have really good night vision and so B. if would only give the opposing side an advantage. However, in conventional warfare flares are insanely useful to defend a dug in position.


The point of this long explanation is that this system takes a pretty long amount of training to use effectively and the tactical upgrade from just guys with riffles is immense.

From this basic riffle / mortar system, the purpose of bullets is mostly to pin down enemy forces to then hit them with mortar fire. Nearly all bullet firing in conventional warfare is suppressive fire for the purposes of striking the enemy position with indirect fire.

A war system then builds up from this, mostly just doing the same thing. Artillery serve the same basic purpose of mortars but against harder targets or farther away and requires the same basic info chain, and the basic purpose of air power is to both observe and substitute artillery strikes. Armor comes in precisely because the bullets and indirect fire system is so effective, sending a wave of infantry just get slaughtered like in WWI. WWII was totally different because armor can be concentrated to break through enemy defensive lines. And so, since armor is so amazing effective against the basic bullets and shells game, air power became so critical because it's armor's biggest weakness.

"Peak armor" was certainly the Nazi's invasion of France, and ever since then significant effort has been put into systems and tactics to defeat armor.

However, all these other way more expensive systems, such as planes and missiles of different kinds, is all happening at the end of the day to get tactical advantages (information and strikes of key things / critical moments) needed to make defensive lines of infantry and mortar/artillery cover (as bullets and shells are insanely cheap compared to cruise missiles and jet fighters).

The basic thing you want to accomplish in conventional warfare is surround your enemy cutting them off from reinforcements and supplies. So, in this basic strategic situation of lines of infantry supported by indirect fire, the counter is to break through the line at some point creating the problem for the enemy of either abandoning their positions and falling back to make a new defensive line (costs time and energy and gives up ground) or then risk being encircled. Hence, the counter offensive is critical to be able to deploy, but this requires armor and / or air power (who can both show up to the fight in a relatively short amount of time). You can't easily send infantry by foot to reinforce a position twenty kilometres away; the battle maybe over by the time they get there, so you need vehicles, civilian vehicles are extremely vulnerable, so you may need armor personnel carriers to even get reinforcements to the battle front requiring reinforcements.

The conclusion to be drawn from this analysis is that talk of "hundreds of thousands" of Ukrainians joining the fight may not be effective in any conventional military battle. Pretty much the only thing an untrained conscript or civilian can do is simply wait in a trench or some urban trench-like location for the enemy to arrive.

Hence the pumping in of ATGMs and Manpads which can be used by infantry individually with even minimum training, and does not require a coordinated team. However, these weapons can only slow the enemy as they are great to ambush armor, causing losses and caution, but they cannot really be used to assault a infantry line (insane waste of money) nor can do anything about relentless shelling of your own infantry positions, and, without good logistics, ATGM's may run out in a given location allowing the enemy to break through with armor that then no one there can do much about.

Because Nuland is not a CBRN expert either. — Count Timothy von Icarus

A. you don't need to be a CBRN expert to have such experts in your staff somewhere who have told you the state of bio-weapons.

B. if she's just talking nonsense as she's not an expert and the answer requires real expertise to answer, then she would have just said "I'm not an expert".

The question does not require being a CBRN expert to answer.

The lengths you're willing to go to try to deflect from the core thing: Q. is there bio-weapons in Ukraine A. non-no-answer, is truly remarkable.

And your long explanations of the difficulty of bio-weapons for tactical purposes, which have a lot of good info and point ... as @Isaac points out, only undermines your case, such as:

1. If there's no tactical reasons to have bio-weapons such as viruses that seem to be included in what Ukraine has/dad, then the only possible reason is for strategic purposes such as starting a pandemic for whatever reason. This would be the only rational explanation of why the CIA would be running bio-weapons labs in Ukraine or then letting Ukrainians, very potentially neo-Nazi's do so.

2. If the Russians have only non-communicable diseases like anthrax to use tactically in an invasion of Ukraine, there's not really any bio-research that helps against that. We know where to find anthrax, we know what it can do, it's more a mechanical (i.e. gas masks) than biological problem in dealing with an attack.

3. Considering the difficulties in bio-weapons development that you point out, there is zero legitimate reason for Ukraine, ranked more corrupt than Russia, to be working on any bio-weapons research of any kind. If there was some legitimate bio-weapons "defensive" research Ukraine "like super needs" it could be done in the United States at a secure lab run by people literally at the top of their field and qualified to work with insanely dangerous pathogens (and even then we worry about the risks and lab escapes do happen), and whatever reason Ukraine could legitimately have ... would also apply to the US who would therefore do that research with far more funds and skills, and just tell the Ukrainians whatever the defensive info is (... like the basics of CBN gear and usage? which, I've done, and is basically put on your gas mask and your rain suite ... and tuck your sleeves into your boots and gloves and hope not to die a terrible, terrible death ... so critical defensive information supplied? You really need bio-weapons research labs for basically the only defensive thing you can do in a tactical situation?).

Looks like Russia is taking a breather. Simply to stack on supplies and some brigades that have endured losses have been withdrawn. — ssu

This is the pattern of the war, as Russia needs to setup forward operating bases before going to the next objective.

Russia has only committed 10% of it's standing army to Ukraine, and so can also rotate units in and out of the war as well as reinforce if it needs.

No doubt Russia has suffered losses, but so too Ukraine. We can't really evaluate relative losses and operational capacity of each side with the information we have, we can only really evaluate general strategic situation (such as Russia doesn't have a fuel problem in any fundamental sense, but Ukraine may), strategic objectives that we can be sure have no strategic or tactical reason to give-up. Obviously, Ukrainians would have prevented the encirclement of the capital if they could have.

This narrative that the Russians have "stalled" makes zero sense. Had Russia failed to siege Kiev (the biggest single strategic objective), ok, then clearly a big stall, but it didn't fail. Reporters are essentially reporting Kiev is now under siege. It may not be completely surrounded, but if it can cover the Southern gap with artillery fire then it becomes significantly harder to resupply Kiev.

It is completely expected that Russia is consolidating this strategic gain to then workout their next move and the logistics for that. Had Russia really been stalled in their encirclement of Kiev, then likely we would have seen some big move on a second priority, but insofar as Russia was making progress then strategy is a very "eye's on the prize" game, and they would prioritize completing that objective with only a defensive posture and easy gains everywhere else (to keep pressure on Ukrainian forces, pin them down and tie them up to avoid them reinforcing Kiev).

There was an attempt to cut off the North-West salient, which simply revealed a long defensive completely straight line of defense the Russians had built up to protect their encirclement.

The evaluation metric the Western media is using of how much land Russia "occupies", makes zero sense. If you want to trap the enemy forces and encircle them (common sense strategy), then the goal is not to just take and occupy a lot of land, but to take the land required for encircling.

What we see now is the start of the next phase of Russian salients forming to encircle Ukrainian forces in the East, in multiple ways and multiple levels.

Again, maybe there is some surprise counter offensive in the works that will rout the Russian forces, but it seems to me an essentially impossible military task.

Ukrainian forces also need water, food, fuel, ammo and to get at least some sleep; there is zero indication that Ukrainian supply lines are working better than the Russians.

That is simply false. China has greater leverage right now. — Olivier5

This is simply false.

NATO has far more nuclear weapons than China, far more and more advanced aircraft (could make a "no-fly zone" or help the Ukrainians directly if it wanted to), far more intelligence capabilities, and EU and US and co. are together far larger economies than China.

China also has leverage, but China is a totalitarian state in a "special friendship" with Russia right now and clearly backed the invasion ahead of time (frustrate the US "pivot" to Asia).

You should probably learn something about the world before discussing world affairs. Corporate truisms, as @Benkei as so aptly pointed out, are not an actual basis of understanding pretty much anything at all.

Why the EU? Why not China or Zimbabwe do that? What's the unsaid assumption here? — Olivier5

They should too.

This is classic whataboutism.

The reason to focus on EU / NATO and US policy is because:

A. They have the most leverage with Russia currently. Russia's top demand in Ukraine doesn't join NATO and so NATO has what Russia wants. Likewise, the sanctions are from the US and EU and the whole point of sanctions, diplomatically, is to create leverage. Germany can open the second pipeline that would be good for Germany, Russia and the entire EU.

B. These parties nominally claim and have voters who not only claim but actually believe, unnecessary loss of life should be avoided, and so criticising people who claim to want to do something ... but aren't, is a lot more productive than criticising parties that make no such claims. If you look at India and Africa media: a pretty strong theme is that this is a white person problem that white people are crying about and not their issue, go fuck yourselves (certainly a stronger theme than in the Western Media).

Now, if you want more carnage and want a 20 year insurgency for Russia to deal with as that would be some sort of "cold war 2 win" than say so. If you care about Ukrainians then you should want the best resolution possible to Ukrainians.

More fighting could help get Ukrainians a better deal ... or it could make it that the deal must be worse for Russia to justify the further loss of life that Ukraine insists on. "Morally supporting" Ukraine losing lives, traumatising children (and everyone else), losing homes and livelihoods, to "stick it to the Russians" is not helping Ukrainians, it is harming the Russians with Ukrainians as a tool to do so.

Maybe Ukrainians have a way to "win" the war with only handheld weapons, and maybe we'll see that.

However, distributing small arms to civilians is just distributing random death to visit those civilians. Media complained of a mortar attack on civilians ... but a guy with a riffle was literally in the foreground of that video (the subject of the videographer).

Professional soldiers would not just wander around a civilian area in range of mortar fire. Professional soldiers will try to keep the fighting away from civilians even at some risk to themselves.

So, this policy is a bloodlust policy with zero military benefit.

Likewise, not trying to evacuate civilians from coastal areas ... by a fucking boat, is a bloodlust policy.

Neither of these policies are Russian. Obviously, Russia has bloodlust too driving their policies, but they at least make reasonable offers that are preferable to further blood being spilt at each step. If US, Nato, EU and Ukraine had counter proposals that are "more reasonable" then they could credibly blame Russia for everything.

Fact of the matter is, one Azov brigade, from my point of view, can easily justify invading a country to destroy the entire armed forces and institutional structure that tolerates an Azov brigade. This argument is, as far as I can see, completely valid one.

It would be Putin appeasing these neo-Nazi's by not invading, not us appeasing Putin by not-pumpin-weapons into Ukraine that we don't care enough to have join Nato or send any troops to defend.

And, the military support to Ukraine during the civil war phase was predicated on an "officially" Azov brigade wasn't doing any fighting, but journalists went and demonstrated that to be false. The West was supporting neo-Nazi's fighting a war. I don't actually like neo-Nazi's, Putin simply has a point on this particular issue, which has been documented by the Wests own media since 2014.

As long as it kills all the humans, that's correct. — frank

With the war slowly escalating global nuclear war is becoming more likely each day. The advantage of nuclear war over environmental destruction is that nuclear destruction is quicker to solve the environmental human infestation problem. — magritte

Nuclear war wouldn't kill us all, and at some point continued environmental destruction would, by definition, kill us all as we need an environment to live.

Of course, Nuclear war would also be highly damaging to the environment, so a double edge sword to deal with environmental issues. I don't think we're at that point yet, but if we let the environment continue to degrade, the social chaos this will lead to, in my opinion, will inevitably cause a nuclear war. We're this close already ... and there's not even a global famine (at least not disrupting the countries that have Nukes).

But this seems off topic, could make an interesting other thread though; certainly brings the high stakes of global ecological catastrophe to useful comparison.

I'm still not talking about capitalism, that's what you brought up. — Christoffer

You literally say:

Yet, Scandinavia's free market system is still capitalism. — Christoffer

So, what are you talking about?

It is as if he was shocked first and foremost by the Ukrainian resistance, or by our moral support to the Ukrainian resistance. — Olivier5

Ahh, such a tough guy adding your "moral support" to the fight.

Neither @Isaac nor my position is "surrender already", but to do diplomacy in a credible way, in particular the EU.

For example, I've already explained many times that only Ukrainian commanders know their military prospects and if further loss of life is justifiable.

However, what we can know is that Mariupole, a port city, is easily evacuated by boat and the EU could, at least try, to negotiate that ... but it doesn't. So, we can be pretty certain that diplomacy is not a priority to avoid further loss of life but that further bloodshed is desired on all sides, certainly the Russian side too, but also the EU, NATO and US actions are consistent with both desiring and doing everything possible to have more bloodshed and actively avoiding any actions that would reduce bloodshed (such as negotiate evacuation of port cities ... by fucking boat).

Well they could hardly do that if Russia wasn't making it available. They're definitely a significant contributer to climate change, so per Isaac's theory, we'll have to sacrifice them for the greater good. — frank

I'm pretty sure that's not Isaac's theory, but, sure, nuke Russia, US and China to implement your world saving policy if there's no diplomatic way to achieve those ends from your point of view.

Nuclear war, at some point, is actually preferable to continued environmental destruction. At least there's trees around Chernobyl.

Russia is worse for the climate, tho: all those hydrocarbons they export for burning. Russia is destroying the environment, so the should be nuked immediately. — frank

It's the people that buy it that burn it, and it's far cleaner Russian gas and crude than tar sands and fracking, could actually be a credible "bridge" to a renewable system there was a credible plan to have actually done that and good faith cooperation with Russia (which is what Russia wanted until 2014, alternatives to SWIFT were created after not before).

Russia didn't spent billions on Nord Stream 2 as some sort of trick.

It's completely irrational from a peace making or clean energy perspective to not use that new pipeline to displace coal. If Ukraine loses out on some transport fees (that are "free" money that go right into keeping the politics in Ukraine corrupt), it could be supported with far better development policies that put pressure on corruption.

Furthermore, not all hydrocarbons are equal. You need flexible and variable natural gas turbines that can rapidly compensate large variations in the grid due to renewable energy unpredictability, if you want more renewable energy.

Russia has what the EU needs to implement it's anti-Russian clean "independent energy" policy.

Once you actually have a significant amount of renewable energy, with variations compensated by natural gas, then you can start to invest in energy storage to displace natural gas.

There's really only one way to do this, and we need Russia help.

Global environmental catastrophe creates strange bed fellows.

Yet, Scandinavia's free market system is still capitalism. — Christoffer

You''re just playing with words, and the global "capitalism" that Scandinavia is still a part of is destroying the entire planet, so doesn't actually contribute to quality of life in Scandinavia.

Scandinavia is not a capitalist system, and the argument to keep health care private, money in politics, unequal education resources to children, destroy the environment ... all because you can still point to something in Scandinavia and call it capitalism and so take credit for quality of life here due to social institutions and money out of politics, built by socialists, is a pretty bad argument.

Using Scandinavia as some form of apologetics for capitalism generally speaking (that is killing the entire planet as Russia kills some Ukrainians, the former a far worse crime by pretty much an infinite factor) is nonsensical. An honest analysis would look at what policies are the basis of Scandinavia success (free and large investments in public education, public health care, insanely strong union protections, regulation of everything to be confident "free market" actions are not harmful, public transportation, defended by the "as socialists as you get" conscription system) and who advocated those policies: private equity and CEO's? Or socialists and anarchists of one form or another?

But it's also way off topic. The criticism of US, NATO and EU policies in the current war in Ukraine is not some vague criticism of "capitalism" it's a criticism of their actions right now.

That "someone is worse" doesn't matter. Can I kill 100 people just because someone has killed 101 people? Or let people starve even if I have the means to do something easily ... because, technically, other people created that starvation situation?

I live in the EU, I can affect EU policy, and if it's just letting Ukrainians die for politicians to masturbate each other on television and advertise the effectiveness of their arms industry, I'm going to complain about the actions and decisions of my "leaders" because there's a point to doing that.

Hating on Putin accomplishes nothing and, the whole Western media doing that for 2 decades, is what leads to a situation where Western leaders don't care about any sort of diplomatic process with Russia to avoid human suffering, because their friends in the arms industry will make bank due to "conflict" with Russia and there's zero consequences as people actually truly believe that counter productive policies that result in war and starvation are justified as long as you it comes with a little #KillPutin and social media circle jerk around that equally counter productive wishful thinking (that, if anyone did it, could easily result in some worse outcome).

Then you know what I mean. — Christoffer

Scandinavia is not an example of how "capitalism works", it's an example of how socialism works and a "free" market (heavily regulated and large limits to private capital in the democratic process) can add some value to a largely socialist state.

Finland deciding simply to not have any homeless people at all ... is not some capitalist ideal.

And yet, it can work well in a society like in Scandinavia. — Christoffer

That's why I live in Scandinavia.

Totally agree ... I wouldn't say classical authoritarianism is somehow a better democratic process.

Again, the criticism of the kind of capitalism we actually have is that it simply displaces state authoritarianism with authoritarianism within multi-national corporations, what Chomsky calls "Private Tyranny", of which states become beholden to and enforce this private tyranny, instead of responding to the needs of citizens.

People treat everything as some capitalism vs [insert alternative system here], when almost everything boils down to, in any form of government and economic system, low or high corruption. — Christoffer

The whole criticism about capitalism is that it leads to corruption of the democratic process. That's the whole point.

Let's say that the inevitable victory of Putin hasn't been declared yet. — ssu

I haven't said it's inevitable. I've made clear only Ukrainian military commanders can know their plan and chances of victory and further loss of life has some military purpose.

However, what I can see is Russia achieving relentlessly strategic objectives. It's reported now that Kiev is indeed encircled or then nearly so. If Ukraine had the means to create even a "stalemate" in conventional warfare then Kiev would not be nearly surrounded. You cannot lose critical strategic objectives and claim to be winning a war.

And, based on my own military experience, there is simply no way to win the sort of conventional warfare Russia is waging without armor and the heavy logistical supply lines armor requires.

Yes, Ukraine can harass and ambush Russian armor and make losses ... but Russia still has more of it.

There is no such concept of strategic retreat ... that's just called retreat.

I did not know that. It just shows how things can change over the years. I like the status quo, though. — FreeEmotion

Status quo inevitably changes, our actions participate in determining where it goes.

And why did Finland manage to defeat Soviet partisans (the Reds) and then (not defeat, still lost in a negotiated peace deal ... because claiming victory as part of the deal would not have made Stalin happy about and so the war would have continued and Finland would be part of Russia right now) successfully avoid full invasion?

A lot of people were "part of the team" but basically came down to one military leader.

Marshal Gustav Mannerheim.

Who was this guy? A lieutenant general in the Russian Empire up to 1917!

So trusted by the Czar that he was entrusted to:

With a small caravan, including a Cossack guide, Chinese interpreter, and Uyghur cook, Mannerheim first trekked to Khotan in search of British and Japanese spies. After returning to Kashgar, he headed north into the Tian Shan range, surveying passes and gauging the stances of the tribes towards the Han Chinese. Mannerheim arrived in the provincial capital of Urumqi, and then headed east into Gansu province. At the sacred Buddhist mountain of Mount Wutai in Shanxi province, Mannerheim met the 13th Dali Lama of Tibet. He showed the Dali Lama how to use a pistol. — Wikipedia

This is the kind of experience you need to win a war with an empire. (And again, Mannerheim didn't "win" because he knew no emperor would ever accept that.)

People have to demand that their governments rule out war as an option, forever. — FreeEmotion

Totally agree, that's my anarchist dream for sure.

But unless you can convince Putin of this anarchist philosophy today, we need to do other things if we want to avoid killing or traumatizing for life even one child through what we can do; letting that child be killed of traumatized knowing that we could have done something, but didn't because we rather blame Putin for it ... is political opportunism and not any morally justifiable action. The morally justifiable actios is: How do we actually avoid as many children being traumatized or killed as we can.

Evacuating children out of sieged port cities ... by boat, can take literally no time nor any political capital.

The reason Mariupole is reported on without ever showing visually it's a port city is that nobody asks ... why don't they just evacuate them by boat?

This is never attempted because Azov brigade is defending the city and does not want civilians to leave, and exposing this fact will call into question the West actively supporting Azov brigade for 8 years.

The West doesn't want Putin to have a "easy win" that shows he does not want to kill civilians for no military purpose with unfortunate but necessary collateral damage, and is happy to agree to let them be evacuated by the EU by boat: the safest, common sense, way to evacuate people from a coastal area ... especially when the alternative is a 1000 km Lassie style adventure through a war zone.

The escape from Dunkirk wasn't a long arduous trek to Portugal.

This is very worrying. Notice how specific weapons have been provided, as if to see how they work, without changing anything? Anti-tank weapons. Hand - held SAMs. As I mentioned Ukraine asked for some weapons they never got. — FreeEmotion

Almost like it's exactly that.

That does not make it right. Meddling with elections and installing your glove puppet as President may not be classified as a battle, but the morality of the idea is questionable. Are lives lost the only measure or is the freedoms lost also to be counted in the list of casualties?

War brings evil intentions to light. That is what it is for. — FreeEmotion

Predicting Russian victory is not a moral justification for Russia's actions.

It's simply necessary to evaluate decisions of other parties, including Ukraine, of what to do about it. If you can't talk Putin out of the war for purely moral reasons, to give up and accept defeat, then trying to do that is just wasting time and not going to save a single life.

What matters during the crisis is what to do about the crisis; the blame game is something that is only morally justified once the crisis is resolved. Starting it before is morally abhorrent and, tacitly assumes, the crisis is actually desirable (you're not doing anything to help anyone in the crisis, so the alternative is that it's actually desirable to score political points and accomplish other objectives at the cost of the suffering and dying).

"Fighting to the last man" with insane civilian casualties and damages to people's homes and livelihood, is only morally justifiable if that last man can win or then the enemy is going to literally rape and kill everyone anyways; no one's proposing either of these possibilities.

Finland is praised as the archetype resistance to Russian imperialism ... yet Finland was literally part of the Russian empire for a century, and owned by Sweden before that. If Finns had this ethic of fighting to the last man ... no Finn would be alive to fight the Soviet partisans in WWI and the Soviet Union itself in WWII. Sometimes you need to live to fight another day, that's the first lesson to be learned from Finnish history.

And the Finns themselves are only there in the first place, because they invaded and took Salmi lands, so it's the kettle calling the pot black to begin with (and the Salmi are still alive and still have some lands because they too didn't fight to the last man).

There have been people's with a fight to the last man ethic in all circumstances, but history being full of variables, they are no longer around.

And to update on the military situation ... it's possible Russia is just incompetently blundering to victory.

... Or it's possible one of its many generals can read, maybe even Putin himself can read, and they've actually bothered to read, at least one of them one time in a decades long career in the military, the classic text of strategic warfare.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"

"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

"Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate."

"""
There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.

Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory:

1 He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
2 He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
3 He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks.
4 He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared.
5 He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

Move swift as the Wind and closely-formed as the Wood. Attack like the Fire and be still as the Mountain.
"""

"Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley."

"The greatest victory is that which requires no battle." (... maybe why Putin made a reasonable offer before the war started ... maybe would have just accepted people accepting his offer.)

"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.
Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting." (this obviously didn't happen, but could have in those more-or-less calm first days of the war; it's literally only the social media encouraging bloodshed without understanding anything that prevented a negotiated settlement in my opinion.)

It all comes from this Chinese book this guy wrote back in the day ... but, certainly an inferior civilization we can just ignore.