It's the opposite of a political power grab...it clearly involves less politicians that will become more accountable to their electorate.

You have to really doubt the motives of those that want more , less accountable politicians, you have to doubt those that seek to create an elite , highly paid ,group of politicians that are ever more isolated from the people ...it's the opposite of democracy..

All human beings want to be better than what they are, that's true for even those that don't admit it. Being better means acquiring knowledge. Applying ourselves to that knowledge involves self control. The words "self control" really means free will in my opinion.

As I said earlier, another fact is that we can act on ideas that do not reflect reality...therefore we are not marionettes being played by the world around us.

I agree with you Harry, as I've said , it's the left that is colluding in the exploitation whilst pretending to be the ones who care.

The left also mistake big business for being right wing when it is clear that huge businesses are supportive of the liberal, globalist left. There is a clear tie up between liberal leftist politics and organisations like Facebook.

Globalism is really an excuse to exploit cheaper labour and have less stringent environmental/safety standards...and like you say it is the "right" that is rebelling whilst the virtue signally left stands by.

My point is that it is not the political rights that constantly bleats about workers rights . It is the liberal left that pretends to care.

What you say about poorer people in the West being dependent on cheap Chinese goods is true to a degree , but better quality goods that cost more but last longer are just as valid for the poor...plus it has the benefit of being better for the planet.

But all this disregards that Apple make extremely expensive items that most people don't actually need ( eg ,buy a Samsung phone instead) ...the liberal left chooses to buy them whilst pretending to care about the poor and the planet. This thread is about that two-facedness .

My main point is that the middle class liberal left ,that so dominate the discourse in the West with regard to how we should live, have no problem buying products from a company that outsources to a despotic regime . Liberal leftists also like to bleat about climate change a lot too...guess who the biggest polluter on the planet is...the one making their phones.

It's just outright two-faced bs from the virtue signalling "establishment" types. The fact that the liberal left gives China a free pass totally discredits them.

I accept that many goods are sub-contracted out to China for manufacture but it is also true that virtually any product you want can be sourced elsewhere. Obviously it's impossible to avoid all Chinese parts within goods but that is not an excuse for no action. I see that Samsung no longer manufacture phones in China...so swap iphones for Samsungs until Apple starts to re-locate.

Taiwan , Japan, Germany and South Korea have done quite well without a CCP type government ....Trying to pretend communism is good in some ways cuts no ice with me...communism is vile, it has murdered millions of its own citizens never mind anyone else's .

Is that your way of saying every political, muslim or gay imprisoned in China is a terror suspect ? That people in Guantanamo are just there because of a non-violent view they expressed? There is no equivalence in what you suggest. The Guantanamo detainees were picked up in wars zones or for mixing with the enemies of the West.

I take it from that that you're one of those skirt wearing , rain soaked, miserable alcoholics the wrong side of Hadrian's wall lol.

I'm English and thankfully lefties like you are a minority here (UK). Seems like it's ok to be anti "yank" in your world but not anti CCP....mmmm, nice.

So you should only boycott countries that engage in racism...nothing else warrants a boycott. The Chinese can bang people up just for being gay , muslim or pro-democracy, the liberal left is alright with that.

My politics are right-wing insofar as I believe in Individual rights and responsibilities over group rights. I also believe in decent minimum standards with regard to pay and conditions for workers.Those things I just stated are better represented in the US and Israel rather than China, that is obvious to 99% of people.

I want to end trade with China, or have conditional trade...but for some strange reason leftist liberal types want to carry on buying their iphones...they don't care about the oppression of the Chinese people , strange.

To equate the US and Israel with China is outrageous...but I'll let that slip provided you admit that the CCP is a vile organisation that totally dominates Chinese life...at least Israel and the US has freedom of speech (although many leftists seek to end that) and a democratic process of sorts.

Most people in the world given the choice of living in the States or China would pick the States for obvious reasons...to deny this would be silly.

It's true that no country is perfect but to include Brazil and Israel in with China is a bit of a stretch. China actively imprisons people for their religious beliefs and political ideas. Also even if you boycotted states that you considered bad there would still be plenty of choice...electronics from S Korea, Taiwan, food and wines from Europe, N America.

Maybe you're just looking for an excuse to carry on buying Chinese goods? Do you agree that it would be ethically better to buy a phone made in S Korea (Samsung) than China (Huawei) ?

My earlier post seems to have vanished...the main point is the key benefit of Brexit is that we will have less politicians interfering in our lives. Too many politicians are as bad as too few, they become a separate elite out of touch with the realities of normal people...you only have to look at their wages and expenses to realise this.

Free will is the idea that we can control our wants. We can do this through educating ourselves at to what we should want and then applying self control to achieve those new wants. So free will requires the acquisition of knowledge followed by the will to act in the right way regarding that knowledge. Dogs can show free will when they are trained not to take a treat until its owner says so...free will is really self control applied to knowledge, it's as simple as that.

One thing that separates humanity from other beings is that we have imagination. Having imagination means that we are able to have thoughts that are not caused ( directly at least) by reality...we can act on those thoughts. Those actions are not caused by reality. That shows that not all our actions are necessarily caused in the sense that materialists believe.

The soul is what attempts to guide our imagination, it's the part of us that seeks particular outcomes.Just my opinion .

The concept of God is the opposite of the concept of chance. There is no more proof for chance being the cause than God.

Truth is that thought which accords to reality whether we recognise it or not. Subjective opinion is only truth insofar as it is truly our opinion...sometimes it also accords with reality, that we call knowledge. Sometimes people claim knowledge , when in fact, it is merely their false opinion.