Comments

  • Everything is ironic?
    Or am I just severely overthinkingDarkneos

    No, I think you’re on the right track. It’s a little like humor or explaining a joke - if you have to explain why a joke is funny then it’s not funny. And there are those - this includes a particular type of American - on whom ‘irony is lost’, who can’t see the irony of something. In which cases it’s pointless to try and explain why it’s ironic.

    I suppose that both irony and a humor (at least not slapstick humor) both rely on cognitive dissonance, a kind of double meaning, a mismatch between what was expected and what actually happened.
  • Everything is ironic?
    I have many arguments in this forum as to whether humans are categorically different to other animals. Most say they’re not, but ironically that’s something only a human could say.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    That's not what this AP article indicatesfrank

    It ‘indicates’ that most of the 80,000 workers were offered $25,000 to quit their jobs.

    Poor Elon! Must be just awful for him. When all he’s doing is trying to help out!
  • On eternal oblivion
    'You are not a drop in the ocean. You are the ocean in a drop' ~ Rumi
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Now they're coming for public medicine:

    WASHINGTON — Most of the 80,000 federal workers responsible for researching diseases, inspecting food and administering Medicare and Medicaid under the auspices of the Health and Human Services Department were emailed an offer to leave their job for as much as a $25,000 payment as part of President Donald Trump’s government cuts.

    The workers have until 5 p.m. on Friday to submit a response for the so-called voluntary separation offer. The email was sent to staff across the department, which includes the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, and the National Institutes of Health as well as the Food and Drug Administration, both in Maryland.

    The mass email went out to a “broad population of HHS employees,” landing in their inboxes days before agency heads are due to offer plans for shrinking their workforces. HHS is one of the government’s costliest federal agencies, with an annual budget of about $1.7 trillion that is mostly spent on health care coverage for millions of people enrolled in Medicare and Medicaid.

    There was no immediate comment Sunday from HHS.
    AP

    Doesn't it matter to anyone that Trump is attacking and dissolving essential government services from within? Will it matter when people start dying and disease outbreaks begin to occur? Can't Americans see what is being done to their country?
  • Mooks & Midriffs
    We’ve all been influenced by propaganda — from the news to education— but the advisement industry is a particularly effective and often overlooked source of indoctrination. In my view it’s as potent as Fox News or going to church.Mikie

    Agree. I think nowadays everyone is tremendously over-stimulated by media and advertising. Two of my grandchildren are boys, 3 and 6. They're totally zoned in to Netflix, although their parents limit the amount of time they can spend with it. But the older one will take the control to skip the boring bits, and replay the good bits, of any number of hyperactively animated movies. Consequently their minds are all over the place, they have very short attention spans and get bored very easily. But we're all like that nowadays. I'm like it! 'Consumerism' relies on stimulating wants, the more the better, and getting consumers habituated to mass-produced goods. Vast fortunes are made on it.

    That video is geoblocked here in AU, but I've long been aware of critiques of a similar kind. Edward Bernays, nephew of Freud, is the godfather of all this. The media analysis, Neil Postman and Marshall McLuhan, were also wise to it. But with hypermedia and smart devices, it has grown absolutely exponentially.

    Speaking of Church, I wonder if the so-called charismatic evangelical churches, with bands and lightshows and the like - are simply the result of applying these cultural forms to so-called 'religion'. That, combined with the so called 'prosperity gospel', which worships consumerist materialism as a manifestation of the holy spirit.

    Maybe the Amish are on to something ;-)
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Now we read that Trump has started to attack the CHIPS act, which is aimed at boosting US self-reliance in advanced chip manufacturing. It has strong bipartisan support and has been seen as successful on both sides of the aisle.

    So far, the Commerce Department has signed contracts to grant more than $36 billion in federal subsidies under the CHIPS Act. Samsung, Intel, Micron, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, known as TSMC, and others in response have pledged to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in U.S. chip-making facilities …

    In late February, Michael Grimes, a senior official at the Department of Commerce and former investment banker at Morgan Stanley, conducted brief interviews with employees of the CHIPS Program Office, which oversees the grants.

    In interactions some described as “demeaning,” Mr. Grimes asked employees to justify their intellect by providing test results from the SAT or an IQ test, said four people familiar with the evaluations. Some were asked to do math problems, like calculate the value of four to the fourth power or long division.

    Last week, the Commerce Department laid off 40 of the CHIPS office employees, nearly a third of the entire team, these people said. ~ NYT

    And why is Trump saying ‘it’s a horrible thing’? Because Biden passed it, and it’s a success. In typical Trump style, any success attributable to his perceived foes must be destroyed, no matter the cost to the country or to business.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    the youtube isn't accessible from herejorndoe

    Ah, interesting. It’s a current US 60 Minutes feature, I guess it’s geoblocked where you are. I won’t post any more of same.
  • Australian politics
    One of the paradoxes of current culture, although far more obvious in the US, is that fact that on the one hand, we are so ready to expect government to address and solve problems for us, but then hating government for all the ways it fails to do so and wanting to punish them for it. Resulting in the continual swings against the incumbents (and in the American case, voting for a candidate whose entire platform is destroying government.) ‘There’s too much confusion, I can’t get no relief’.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)

    60 Minutes on Trump’s Illegal Firings of Inspectors General.
  • On eternal oblivion
    Only that all this might be for real, and that at my age, it is a prospect that is beginning to gnaw at me.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    ...with tornado season looming, our access to valuable weather information is under threat. The U.S. government‘s stellar weather information service is being torn apart and likely sold for parts as Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency implement another destructive chapter of the Project 2025 playbook: experienced scientists fired, senior meteorologists forced into retirement, broken radars left unrepaired, weather forecasting balloons not launched, and leases for vital forecasting units canceled. The loss of expertise is profound, and the impact will be widespread. We’ll all be less safe, the economy will suffer and, yes, those popular weather apps could miss the next big storm.The Contrarian
  • On eternal oblivion
    So Indian religion is an elaborate confabulation from the yearning for justice? Fine - as Lennon sang, whatever gets you through the night, it's alright.Banno


    There's a book by an analytical philosopher, Mark Johnston (Princeton, from memory) - Surviving Death. He attempts to stay firmly within the naturalist lane.

    Johnston’s argument challenges the Cartesian idea that an enduring ego or soul is required for meaningful survival. He proposes instead that re-birth could consist in the continuation of one’s moral concerns and commitments in future personas. He confronts the common Western objection: If I don’t persist as a distinct person, how can that future person be me? He argues that this objection rests on a mistaken notion of identity fixed, rather than recognizing identity as a dynamic pattern of values, intentions, and relationships. Johnston’s account connects survival to the persistence of what we care about. This echoes Buddhist ethics, where moral causation is the primary thread linking past and future lives. His focus on love, moral concern, and relational continuity offers a powerful secular counterpart to Buddhist teachings on compassionate action as a means of transcending the egoic self.
    gives meaning to the idea of survival without postulating a supernatural soul.
  • On eternal oblivion
    Inclined to agree. But most will mistake consciousness for one's own conscious self-awareness, which is but the tip of a very large iceberg.

    That "aggregate of material elements" is the very source of value.Banno

    In Buddhist philosophy the five skandha are the aggregates of

    1. Name and form (Rūpa)
    2. Feelings or sensations (Vedanā)
    3. Perceptions/Cognition (Saṃjñā, saññā, samjfia or sanjna)
    4. Mental formations, volition, habits, or fabrications. (Saṅkhāra, samskarah, or saṃskāra). ...
    5. Consciousness awareness (Vijnana, vijfianam or Vinanna) (ref)

    All of which are said to be empty of own-being, i.e. not possessing their own causal principle, and therefore incapable of providing anything of lasting value, being impermanent, devoid of self, and unsatisfying.

    From our point of view, they must be of value, as there is nothing else, nothing beyond. But from the Buddhist perspective, the reason this is seen as nihilistic is the implication that at death, the deeds of the most heinous criminal and those of the most altruistic philanthropist are all equally negated as there are no consequences for them (although of course there are consequences for others).

    But then I'm also reminded of these aphorisms, with which you're no doubt familiar.

    The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is and happens as it does happen. In it there is no value—and if there were, it would be of no value.

    If there is a value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental.

    What makes it non-accidental cannot lie in the world, for otherwise this would again be accidental.

    It must lie outside the world.
  • On eternal oblivion
    What about those centuries when you could change your prospects in the afterlife by getting with the winning team?Paine

    I'm not sure if you're being serious.
  • On eternal oblivion
    I was responding to the OP, not to you.


    ....although I will say that individuals are born into specific times and places, with some kinds of apparently-innate abilities and proclivities, which are then subject to further influences and changes throughout their early childhood and adulthood. Some genetic inheritance, some cultural inheritance, but some elements of which can be quite subtle.

    I will also note that there's a distinction between critical thinking and antagonism, and that these kinds of discussions will invariably generate the latter, as there are longstanding cultural taboos around this topic.
  • On eternal oblivion
    I’ve always had the belief that what is understood in the east as Saṃsāra - the eternal cycle of birth and death - captures some fundamental truth about existence, even if allegorical in some sense. The process that drives the cycle of life and death and of which individual beings are the product continues after individual death, and countless individual beings will continue to be born and to perish, each one of them taking form, from their own perspective, as ‘myself’ or ‘I’. In those belief systems, it is desire or clinging to existence which causes the birth of the individual, and only through the cessation of that desire or clinging is liberation from the cycle (Mokṣa) attained. The natural corollary of that is belief in rebirth, although in Buddhist culture, it is without the belief that there is an individual soul as such, but a stream of consciousness which manifests across many lifetimes. However it clearly requires that that there are planes of existence beyond the physical in which karma (the consequences of acts) is accumulated and transmitted.

    In Western culture there is no such belief, instead it is thought that living beings are aggregates of material elements which are born as a consequence of physical processes which cease when those comprising physical elements disperse at death. It is a view seems intuitively obvious when viewed ‘from the outside’ or from a third-person or scientific perspective. However from the ‘eastern’ viewpoint it is a nihilistic attitude.

    Where it sits uneasily with me is a sense I have had since I became conscious of memories from a previous life. That too could be understood allegorically, as the inheritance from or a transmission of the collective unconscious. I can’t say that I know it’s true, but on balance of probabilities I think it is more likely than not. I’m mindful of the fact that in those Eastern cultures, the prospects for a future existence are often said to be grim, as we inherit the consequences of acts carried out with no awareness of their eventual consequences.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    Don't agree. The US system has its problems, but it has held up for 237 years - until now. And now a convicted criminal and secessionist with an emormous ax to grind and hatred of government has been put in charge of it. He may well succeed in destroying the constitutional order, but it's not the time to try and devise a new model. What's important is not letting Trump destroy it. The kind of cynicism 'the whole thing is broken' is only going to make it easier for Trump's nihilism to come out on top.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Now Trump, having said an Lies Social that he would put harder sanctions on Russia, then turns around to reporters in the Oval Office and "expressed understanding Friday for Russia’s stepped-up attacks on Ukraine after the White House halted military and intelligence aid to Kyiv this week, saying that he would resume help for the beleaguered country only when Ukrainian leaders agree that “they want to settle.”

    “I actually think he’s doing what anybody else would do,” Trump said in the Oval Office on Friday, when asked whether he was upset that Russian President Vladimir Putin was taking advantage of the U.S. halt in aid for Ukraine. “Probably anybody in that position would be doing that right now. He wants to get it ended. And I think Ukraine wants to get it ended, but I don’t see. It’s crazy. They’re taking tremendous punishment. I don’t quite get it.”WaPo

    "Don't quite" get it? How about "don't have the foggiest idea, but would hate to upset my good friend Vladimir." In essence, Ukraine is being blamed for not throwing down their arms and inviting Russia to occupy their country. It's completely nuts, as is most of the other stuff he's doing.
  • The world as ideas and matter in Ideal Realism
    Nothing of what you're saying here rises to the level of philosophical analysis.
  • The world as ideas and matter in Ideal Realism
    Fair enough. A thing and the idea of a thing are separate, in that sense.
  • The United States of America is not in the Bible
    It is a fact that the United States of America is not in the Bible.Arcane Sandwich

    Did you know that the Mormon religion, founded in the United States, actually believes that Jesus Christ visited America on a spiritual plane?

    According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus appeared to a group of Nephites in the Americas in 33 AD. That the Nephites were descendants of ancient Israelites who traveled to the Americas around 600 BC.
    That Jesus visited the Americas to establish his church, as he did in Jerusalem. That when Jesus returns to Earth, he will first go to Jerusalem and then to Missouri. So the Mormons kind of retro-fit America into the Biblical myth.

    There was also a myth that Jesus visited England, subject of the poem, and later the hymn Jerusalem, Oh Did Those Feet In Ancient Times. (Rather a stirring hymn, too.)

    Does it matter, in any meaningful way, for ordinary citizens, that none of the aforementioned countries are not in the Bible?Arcane Sandwich

    It never seemed to matter to me, although clearly it does to others. I suppose it depends on whether you believe the facts related in the Biblical texts are significant due to matters of geography and history, or whether the symbolic and spiritual truths they are intended to convey are meaningful outside that context. Plainly for much of the history of the Christian West, the 'Holy Land' occupied the role of the Axis Mundi, the spiritual 'centre of the world', however with the discovery of the New World, and increased awareness of global cultures other than the Christian, this sense cannot help but have faded in the popular imagination.

    (Also see The Jerusalem Syndrome.)
  • The world as ideas and matter in Ideal Realism
    What do you think the actual idealism is? What is your account for non-naive idealism?Corvus

    Explained in the OP The Mind Created World. Not that I'm wanting to hijack your thread, but I also don't want to try and explain it all again here.

    If I had to explain it in a sentence or two, it would be that the world (object) always exists for an observer. That while we can know what the world would be like as if there were no observer, the observer is still the basis of that imaginative act. That this doesn't mean that the world doesn't exist without an observer, as existence and non-existence are conceptual constructions.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    The only way to change this, is to change the fundamentals of the US, to focus on running society as a society and not as a business.Christoffer

    In other words, Vote Democrat.
  • The world as ideas and matter in Ideal Realism
    But if you divide the world into reality and representation, then you are back in the old dualistic view of the world. We have been on that road before.Corvus

    Have you been on that road before, or are you relying on a second-hand accounts?

    If you go out, and see the tree in front of you feeling and confirm the physical tree, then you have the physical tree as well as the sensation and ideas of the tree.Corvus

    You think philosophers don't recognise this?

    You need to do some homework on what idealist philosophy actually is. The Brittanica has a decent introductory article on it. It's not nearly so naive as you're making it out to be.
  • The world as ideas and matter in Ideal Realism
    When the perceiver is only thinking about the world without direct visual or material sensation or perception, the world is in the mind of the perceiver as ideas only.Corvus

    ‘Naive realism’ is the philosophical attitude that things just are as they appear, and there is no question to solve about the relationship between reality and appearance.

    Although it’s not as common an expression, ‘naive idealism’ is the view that idealists believe that the world is simply a figment of the individual mind, or what goes on inside a conscious mind.

    I think your post presents a pretty naive version of both materialism and idealism. Serious philosophers in both schools have long grappled with the conundrums of mind and matter, or matter and form.

    Idealism cannot explain the coherence in reality therefore it is false.MoK

    And that is a naive depiction of idealism. No idealist philosophy of record will claim that ‘the world is all in the mind’ as you are claiming. If you want to illustrate the point you’re attempting to make, you’ll need to back it up with some citations from recognised idealist philosophy which say what you’re claiming it says.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    The explosion of another SpaceX rocket is not really part of the 'Musk Plutocracy' but it is at least the occasion for a little wholesome schadenfreude. (The burning fragments witnessed falling to earth might also include fragments of Tesla's plummeting share price.)

    More to the point:

  • Ontology of Time
    Sorry PoeticUniverse, whilst I appreciate what you're trying to express, it doesn't capture my interest, as I don't know if poetic meter is really an appropriate medium for exploring ideas of this kind.

    You're welcome.
  • Ontology of Time
    I'm not concerned with questions of 'materialism vs idealism' or 'realism vs antirealism' because I think these questions are not definitively decidable....Science for me offers a far more interesting, rich and complex body of knowledge.Janus

    Probably just as well, as you show little aptitude in philosophy.
  • Ontology of Time
    It's a kind of confabulation, hand-waving.Janus

    We can test it! I'll wave, and you vibrate.
  • Ontology of Time
    Yes, I think you're right. I think it's a fact. Matter of fact, I've got one now. It's called 'irritation' ;-)
  • Ontology of Time
    We've been through all of this already. Fields in physics specify mathematical values for every point, as physics is quantitative in nature, comprising the measurement of objects and forces. Where 'field' entered the discussion was in a different sense, also discussed, as a 'field of awareness', which is a perfectly legitimate expression, albeit not describing a physical field. The remark that I made that precipitated two days of eye-rolling, was that physicalism (or materialism or what have you) attempts to resolve everything about the mind to the product of physical forces. In times past, this would have been understood atomistically, but since the quantum revolution, 'fields' have replaced atoms as the fundamental ground of physical existence. Hence, the analogy went, if physical fields can be understood as the ground of existence, as physicalists intend, then what of the nature of awareness, consciousness or mind, understood as a qualitative field?

    Of course I understand that in the Austin/Davidson/Wittgenstein field of philosophy, no consideration whatever is given to the issue of the nature of the subjective unity of consciousness, and as you never tire of pointing out, hardly anyone in the academic world takes philosophical idealism seriously. Hence the eye-rolling. But the analogy stands as far as I'm concerned.
  • Ontology of Time
    You are welcome to produce an alternative definition of "field" that does not invovle a value at every point in a space.Banno

    Already done: morphogenetic fields.

    Stop blurting things out, just take a little time to actually think about it. I'll leave it with you.
  • Ontology of Time
    The magic hand wave of "The subjectivity in me is the same subjectivity in you" contradicts the very use of terms such as "subjective" from which it derives.Banno

    That is also part of the point of the essay I've referred to:

    we must... differentiate the subjective from the merely personal. The subjective refers to the structures of experience through which reality is disclosed to consciousness. In an important sense, all sentient beings are subjects of experience. Subjectivity — or perhaps we could coin the term ‘subject-hood’ — encompasses the shared and foundational aspects of perception and understanding, as explored by phenomenology. The personal, by contrast, pertains to the idiosyncratic desires, biases, and attachments of a specific individual. Philosophical detachment requires rising above, or seeing through, these personal inclinations, but not through denying or suppressing the entire category of subjective understanding.
  • Ontology of Time
    The science you castigate and beg to become more "subjective" functions exactly because it works to overcome subjectivity by building on what we do share.Banno

    Hence my essay on the superiority of philosophical detachment to scientific objectivity. Here's a gift link for you.

    ...becasue a field has a value at every point...Banno

    Dogmatic? Me?
  • Ontology of Time
    Not a field.Banno

    Why not? If you were amnesiac, you would presumably be conscious, even if you didn't know who you were. Your autonomic and parasympathetic nervous systems would be functioning. You would see things around you in the room, and other people, even if you didn't know who they were. All of those would be part of your field of awareness.
  • Ontology of Time
    Reply to that, if you would, instead of changing the topic.Banno

    You're the one who changed the topic, and you're now trying to shift it back within your comfort zone.

    Where was it you lost those car keys? ;-)
  • Ontology of Time
    ..so what is left that is shared?Banno

    The fundamental level of self-awareness that characterises beings. What would remain if you had complete amnesia and forgot who you were.
  • Ontology of Time
    Still not an argument....