One book which I have read which is relevant to the discussion which you have raised is, 'The Corpernicus Complex:The Quest for Our Cosmic (In)Significance,' by Caleb Scharf, (2014). In this, the author argues,
'our specific human biology, its evolutionary history, and its connections to our planetary circumstances could well be unique_ if measured with a fine pair of calipers. But this does not have to imply that life_even complex life_ can't reach similar states by following other pathways. We could be special yet be surrounded by a universe of other complex, equally special life-forms that just took a different trajectory.'

However, I am not sure that I find his argument fully convincing and I was a bit disappointed by the book because it seems to focus on bacteria as life. He does not look at the issue of human consciousness. I suppose it just calls for us to question our significance. I have interacted with you enough to be aware that you don't have any sense of us having a 'sacred destiny', but in thinking about what you have said and Scharf's ideas, I do think it just important for us not to read too much into our place in the universe. We could become too inflated about being our evolutionary status. However, I do believe that the evolution of our consciousness is a territory for exploration in its own right, but that is probably outside of your thread discussion.

If humanity is the centre of consciousness in the universe, it raise the question of what is our role in it.? It would almost seem to make us like gods. Also, we could ask did it happen randomly? Is there any purpose underlying evolution?Of course, it is so difficult to know for sure and even if we are at this point, it doesn't mean that there have never been other beings, perhaps much more advanced and sophisticated than us. Part of the problem is that we see through the human perspective, which does appear to be the ultimate one, but it is not possible for us to go beyond being human beings in order to see from another position. Of course, there have been religious teachers but they still were living as humans too.

I am thinking about the search for freedom, but the special way we have to walk the careful and intricate path between the negative and the positive in order to survive individually and collectively. It is so easy to feel beaten up by oppressive experiences and just wish to give up. Alternatively, if people just try to think of the positive only, they may be in for some nasty shocks. Probably each of us finds what works for us, but it is likely that how we perceive the possible paths will affect the destinies we create for ourselves, even though it does seem that some people seem to have more obstacles to face than others.

I am replying to your today's comment rather than giving a response to the link because my thinking feels rather foggy at the moment. What you have said in your post makes me think about the responsibility that comes with knowledge. Perhaps that is why certain ideas were hidden from many people in the form of the esoteric. Even now, even though information is available readily it is unlikely that people will try to understand it or even take an interest in it. Of those who do try to gain specialised knowledge it is essential that they do not abuse the power of it but use it with sensitive understanding, as a basis for wisdom for humanity.

One of my biggest worries is that we are are on the verge of totalitarianism and I think that it may be a completely unbearable form of existence. I am concerned that all this time of social restrictions is going to make it that much easier to usher in totalitarian regimes because people are becoming used to not being allowed to do hardly anything at all.

The way I have seen life in England in the last few weeks has worried me. People are sitting on steps of shops which are shut, just to eat, like vagrants, because they are not allowed to go inside any public places apart from supermarkets. I was at King's Cross station yesterday and, it was patrolled by police who were walking around carrying machine guns. it felt like an entirely different city to the one of a year ago. I am not sure that it is about the pandemic, or if it is the rise of a totalitarian state. Honestly, I am uncertain what is going to happen in the near future, but I do feel very fearful of what may be coming, but I hope that my fears don't come true.

Extra: I realise that you are talking about the internet, and it appears that we are free but I think that there are some ways we are being tracked when we are online. But, of course, there are so many people to be monitored.

I am glad that you are still keeping up the thread consistently, as I never thought that it would last so long. I am still thinking before replying to Nicholas's posts because he has given me a lot to reflect upon. I don't know if you opened the link which he sent put in his last reply to me. It is almost a book in itself and I think that you would probably be interested in it, although it is a fairly difficult read. I am at my mum's house, because she has hurt her knee, so I will probably have to use this site a bit less while I am here, but I do have some interesting books here in her house to keep me busy as well. I think that it will be great if you are able to organize a summer camp in philosophy in your local area and, I am sure that the big philosophy questions about religion will feature strongly.

I have read Julian Jaynes' work and one aspect which is interesting is that he suggests that early humanity experiences thoughts as 'voices' because they were not able to conceive of the inner experience of consciousness.

One thing which I am also wondering is if we think about any form of consciousness in any other life forms apart from human beings, we would have to query in what form would meaning be grasped if it is not in the form of language, as we know it?

Your reply is interesting and, you are right to say that apart from our conscious positions of optimism or pessimism we have intuitions. The opposite is still within our minds as well. One aspect of the conundrum of this opposition is that we know our past, but we don't really know where we are going or what will happen next in our lives, so we are making up our own life stories on an ongoing basis. So, we can also choose the whole tone of the daily realities we create, on the basis of how we frame our past experiences.

Yes, there are so many interesting books to read. I keep finding them, e-books and paper ones, and I have been given plenty of recommendations on this forum. The world of reading is like a maze of treasures. I think that the many people I know think that I am rather strange doing all the reading which I do. I have thought that I wouldn't mind working in a library, but my mother thinks it wouldn't work. She thinks that I would be too tempted to read the books rather than stack them on shelves and would get into deep conversations with the customers.

I can't remember when I read 'The Mayan Factor' but I have always gravitated towards unusual books. It is a pity that we are all situated in different countries, but just imagine a summer camp. It would be so surreal. What has happened to me on several occasions Is I have dreams in which I am reading and responding to threads on the site which don't even exist. When lockdown eases I do plan to go to some talks or workshops, and the more alternative the better. It is good that you are able to go swimming as just about everything is still closed here. But, I am trying to make best use of the time, and it has certainly given so much time for critical reflection.

I have more of an arts background, but, increasingly, I do find myself searching in the sciences section. One book which I am starting to read is, 'The Holographic Universe,' by Michael Talbot(1991), and that is an attempt to understand psychic experiences from the perspective of quantum physics. However, I am aware that is 20 years old.

I try to make the best sense of science, even though I didn't enjoy it at school. As an adult, I have read some Stephen Hawking and Fritjof Capra. Of course, theories keep arising and I try to read and take in as much of I can. Really, I try to develop as much of a multidisciplinary approach to understanding of extrasensory experiences and other aspects of life, but there is so much to take on board. Even with science, there are no easy answers.

The idea of 'no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn,' does seem to blend together the whole idea of gratification with eternal punishment. So, it is an interesting combination, but it probably does capture the contradictory set of values that I feel that I, and probably many others were raised on. My own sources of inspiration were Catholicism and rock'n'roll. I am not sure that asceticism was ever discussed with me at home or at school. I think it was a bit of a taboo area of discussion. Jim Morrison discussed the unspeakable and took me into a unexplored realms. So, is it any surprise that I needed philosophy to untie all the complicated knots.

I have read some Rimbaud and he is a very powerful writer. I also agree with the quote you gave on suicide. It does seem that suicide is often an impulse which is done in the moment of rash despair. It does seem to me that is too easy, although it is not that easy to kill oneself. Many people try and fail, sometimes with long term physical consequences, which were far worse than the original ones they had. Perhaps suicide is about people only wishing for optimism and we have to take into ourselves, as opposed to killing it, as if it is some kind of vermin.

When I woke up this morning, I read your dialogue with Proof and had mixed feelings. I do think that the study of pessimism and optimism would be an interesting area for psychological research. However, I don't think it would come up with definitive answers because that would seem to be trying to solve translate the questions of philosophy into the perspective of experimental psychology. It would show some things but not the complete picture and, I am so glad about that. I prefer libraries to laboratories.

I am glad that the Doors crept in, especially as Jim Morrison was inspired by Nietzsche. It was Jim who led me to Nietzsche's books in the first instance. I do agree that we are all natural creatures, or I would have never written a thread on bodies. I probably do stand more on the brink of the embracing absurdity rather than stepping into the nihilistic wasteland. I really like Kafka as well as Camus and do think that sometimes can capture certain aspects of truth which can get lost in prose writing.

Anyway, I am logging out for today, so good night.

Yes, music is so central. I usually listen to about 2 to 3hrs music a day. I saw you referring to Neil Young on a music thread. I do have some albums by him. I also like Van Morrison. I listen to music ranging from the 60s to the present. I do have a couple of 2021 albums, although I haven't had time to play them yet, but I have the new Alice Cooper and Robin Thikke. But, I still buy CDs rather than just relying on digital music.

I am not sure if I can narrow down to the most important idea, but it is a good question, so I will have a think and get back to you.

That is a fascinating area. I have read some Dennet but not the others. I am going to see my mother tomorrow, and have a large book of readings on the philosophy of mind, which I left in her house, so I will follow it through by some further reading.

Today, in various bits of discussion I have had on various threads, the main theme has been the question of consciousness. So, I will have a read and get back to you, because I do believe in writing the most informed replies. I don't know if you ever find that balancing the reading and writing is hard battle. And, after lockdown ends, I will need to try to work again. There are just not enough hours in a day, and music needs to get included too.

Sorry that my reply to you is brief, but I have been busy writing on threads. However, what I wish to say that I am interested in your discussion of Hermeticism. I have believed that this is a central but overlooked aspect of philosophy. I have gathered some literature on the topic, but just trying to find the time to read it all. Today, I have been reading some of the book I mentioned to you a while ago, in relation to your thread discussion on Plato's forms, 'The Physics of Transfigured Light: The Imaginal Realm and the Foundations of Science' by Leon Marvell. I am also interested in hermeticism in relation to the tradition of alchemy. Another tradition which I believe is extremely important is Rosicrucianism.

I am replying to your post because even if you speak of God you don't seem like a fundamentalist religious type. I am also writing because I have an interest in the whole exploration of the nature of consciousness and take an interest in many perspectives, ranging from Taoism, Jung and I definitely reject hard deterministic views of life. I am particularly interested in Jung's idea on evil within the human psyche. I do believe that many ideas within religion arise symbolically, and I am thinking that you are maybe coming from an esoteric approach.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope that you get some interesting responses, because from reading what you have written it doesn't seem like you are out to preach, and it seems that you have put some thought into what you have written. Before finishing, I would just be interested to know what thinkers influence you.

I definitely wouldn't be able to pick out numbers, and I do believe that pherenomes play some role but in a couple of my own experience I was not in the presence of the people concerned. I am not necessarily wanting any extrasensory experiences and certainly have not had any of that nature recently.

However, aside from this thread discussion, I am just not convinced that our conventional understanding of consciousness is adequate.

These threads seem to have a life of their own, and it was waiting for your response. Anyway, it was good to hear from you.

I expect that you are opposed to any belief in and extrasensory perception, but you are quite welcome to say it as I am into critical analysis, in the most open way.

Your reply has just sprung to life like an energy after this thread died about a week ago. I think glad that someone believes in some kind of energies, although I try to avoid the word 'spirit' because it conjures up too much thought of a supernatural power in another sphere, whereas I am inclined to see it as inherent in nature, both body and mind.

I think that the reason I was interested in your discussion is the way you spoke of the philosophy of mind. I have been reading this thread today, finding it fascinating, more on the level of consideration of mind, because I am most certainly not a mathematician. I am interested in your view of mind lacking determination. The angle I am coming from is one arising in the thread I made on pessimism and optimism, and realising that in the discussions which I am having, I am coming from the angle of believing that our consciousness, perhaps as part a larger consciousness may have a determining factor in our lives, and realising that others don't necessarily have that view at all.

However, I am not sure whether this is relevant
what you are querying, but I am probably responding to yours because it is a more general one within the thread.

My own take on it is that it sometimes seems that there are so many potential obstacles that I am amazed and grateful that things go as well as they do. I am often busy making plan B and then the whole circumstances alter and both plan A and B disintegrate, with plan C appearing in the midst.

I am not trying to be complicated, but I find that the more prepared I am for certain eventualities, the more the picture seems to shift. But, in spite of the way life seems to come with plenty of harsh shocks, I find that there are usually some pleasant ones. But I am not convinced that what happens in life is random, and I do believe that on some level our consciousness has a key role, on some kind of subliminal level. It is probably for this reason, that I think that the whole question of pessimism and optimism is an important one for discussion.

You may be mistaken in seeing the pessimism and optimism as a matter of believing in life after death or not. One of the main heroes of pessimism, Schopenhauer, pointed to whole philosophy of pessimism in Christianity, in the idea of sin. I would add to what he wrote in saying that Christianity has a whole heritage of belief in the fall of angels and the consequent fall of human beings. So, it is a fairly grim view of human nature. Also, the idea of life after death does have a potential sting, in the possibility of hell.

The art may be able to hold on to a slight glimmer of light amidst some form of bleak pessimism, in order to find ways of coping with the daily aspects of living.

Yes, I think that makes it a lot better, and it was not a criticism, just a wish to be able to read what you had written.

You say that you are not literate. I think that you are extremely literate, but just need to break up your great long paragraph. I found my eyes could not cope, but it seems well written and as if it is really worth reading.

Of course, we smile and things often do get worse. It is difficult to know how much is just us seeing patterns, or how much impact our subconscious wishes have upon us, for better or worse. So, you could ask to what extent does it matter whether we embrace a philosophy of pessimism or optimism, or certain psychological attitudes? Does it really matter, in determining experiences and how we interpret our experiences?

Yes, I am glad for your little elegant post, to steer the thread back on track. I do think that the wish to live, or die, is at the centre of the consideration about pessimism and optimism. I think that an underlying aspect is that of will. I have seen people who have a great wish to live and that seems to provide the will to persist in spite of great obstacles. Also, I have seen people who seem to have given up, as if they have lost the will to carry on and, in some cases, it seems that they become more susceptible to severe organic illnesses. Of course, I am not saying that all people who become seriously ill physically have lost the will to live, as that would far be too simplistic.

Another aspect of the matter may be faith, not in the religious sense, but in the way the balance between pessimism and optimism are juggled. That is because there needs to be a certain positive motivating factor. Perhaps those who consider themselves pessimists or nihilists have faith in order to battle on in spite of living with an awareness of suffering, and death, hovering in the background.

I am about to go out, but will have a think before I reply because it is a really big question.

I think that a lot of threads on this site ask about the cause of consciousness but we can also ask what is consciousness, and how it fits into the scheme of the universe. That is not forgetting the overall question of pessimism and optimism. At the moment, I am wondering if they may be the manifestation of the duality of life and death in the human psyche.

You are raising several philosophy questions really. Mainly, you are asking whether we have free will. Also, you are asking about causes which include biological, psychological, social and environmental aspects. I do believe that your introduction is also probably concerning with what is s desirable for human beings to become.

I have got to go out shortly, so I am logging out now. But, I think it will be interesting to see how other people respond and what path the thread takes.

It is a complex area, involving the question about our basic nature and our quest for meaning. In some ways, it could be argued that thinking and philosophy are all part of the survival process. However, that would seem to be reducing it all to the perspective of evolutionary biology. Culture seems so important. Could the purpose of biology itself be the evolution of consciousness? If that view was taken, the whole process of finding our own gravitation on the pessimism and optimism spectrum, and forming worldviews would be seen as essential.

I think that you raise an important area for considering because, on one hand, there is human nature, although, of course, there is no one single theory. However, apart from the basic assumptions made about what human beings are like, there are questions about potential and what we become. This is where agency comes in and we can begin to think about what it really means to be human and about becoming as a choice, although some would deny that we have free will.

I have read 'The Mayan Factor,' by Jose Arguelles.
It is an inspiring book. One I am reading at present is 'Cosmic Consciousness,' by Richard Maurice Bucke. He speaks of how in addition to there being 'consciousness of the cosmos there occurs an intellectual enlightenment or illumination which would place the individual on a new plane of existence...' Perhaps this aspect is a central truth underlying the religious quests.

I think that it is also worth considering what does is involved and what is dreaming exactly? We have dreams every night and from what I have read in that area of psychology, it appears that dream sleep (REM) is of particular significance, to the point where it could be asked is the whole purpose of sleep to dream? Dreams have been seen as significant in some cultures, and both Freud and Jung spoke of them as revealing significant insights about our personal lives. But what is dreaming?I wonder about the significance of dreaming in the wider scheme of the development of our consciousness.

One thing which I think about in relation to the poll question is that it is so easy to become caught up in finding pleasure for oneself and miss the importance of trying to help others find pleasure. In the harshness of life, I feel that I am sometimes struggling to make life bearable, but feel that finding pleasure makes it bearable. However, in juggling this, I try not to lose sight of thinking about my actions just as a way of satisfying my own needs, but I think that it all has to be balanced carefully and mindfully.

Actually, what this has made me wonder is how pessimism and optimism fit together with the whole life instincts. I am making the connection with Freud's emphasis on the life and death instincts, Eros and Thanatos. I am wondering to what extent are optimism and pessimism part of our innate tendency towards survival and how we develop cognitive tendencies, especially at different stages in our lives. Or, alternatively, perhaps the gravitation towards pessimism or optimism plays a significant determinant role in establishing aspects of our physical and psychological survival.

I think that we are all probably looking for a worldview that works for us. That is probably central to the whole philosophical quest and it is so interesting that what seems to work for one person doesn't seem to work for others at all.