It's less a story than it is an attempt to sketch a picture/scene by words.

Perhaps a "mathematically invalid" structure could employ illusion or contradiction that breaks or bends classical/known laws of physics. But non-classical physics/phenomena, however bizarre, still is captured by the language of maths, assuming one has the time, and resources and body of knowledge to model its recurrent patterns. Detailed observation from either Shang or Xi would make it more interesting -- what precisely are they seeing that leads them to what make such an inference. If their instruments are compromised, why would they jump to the conclusion?

Maybe the structure changes radically depending on their location. Shang might register a Parthenon while Xi sees something like a giant coral. They share each other's data to know the structure pattern is seemingly location or observer dependent. Data sharing could also change the structure.

Though if this happens may they should just flee at this point and return to their consensus reality if at all possible. Back to their home, where Shang and Xi open the fridge to find the cold beer is cold beer and the couch is as soft and comfy as they remember. Hopefully they are not forever entangled/changed by what they encountered in a harmful way.

Facts are only an ideal perfection, something we would like to achieve but cannot. — Plex

Many facts aren't ideal perfections written in stone, they're relative, provisional, ephemeral, context dependent, general or specific bits of information that help us navigate the world and achieve goals (whether "foolish" or "wise").

I always tell the protagonist in a horror movie or thriller to stay the hell out of that basement; I yell and swear at them, but they never listen. God probably feels the same way sometimes. — Vera Mont

God wouldn't get to watch the dramatic unfoldment by his own (atrocious) desire if no one comes around to open the basement door. Someone will always open the basement door. You can count on it.

Having just watched Robert Eggers The Lighthouse, after learning he is reviving the cinematic tale of Nosferatu, the horror fantasy influence is too much on my mind. Halloween is going to last until the very end of this year what with the scary election in Nov and the cult of the skin wearing orange man. Will we survive?

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" :death:

the concept of God arose through a combination of competitive story telling (one-upmanship) fed into real life boasting to the point where slowly a Higher Being came into fruition — I like sushi

Most of the commentary in this thread seems mutually compatible and complimentary to your idea here.

Gods are definitely inflated and deflated by human rivalry/competition. The divine right of kings is an example of leveraged belief to secure/conserve power. One invokes the bigger fish of spirit as a representative of official sanction.

"The doctrine asserts that a monarch is not accountable to any earthly authority (such as a parliament or the Pope) because their right to rule is derived from divine authority." — wiki: Divine right of kings

One can imagine the endless stories that serve to secure or depose one who enjoys the blessings/curses of a high status positions. If gods are not born from politics per se, they certainly evolve through it.

In Mandrills, sexual competition between males results in a hormone feedback cycle. Successful males gain a phenotype change. The troop leader is adorned by a phenotypic aura of color and shape, which serves as a signal to all others. Now throw story telling into the mix. His color might be a sign of his divine right as a king. If he may potentially be deposed by a rival, there is "always another Mandrill" to take his place. One may fantasize about the other (if fantasy is possible) and dream of all kinds of unsettling surreal exaggerations. These stories generate from all tellers, all dreamers, and are shaped by desire and fear. Mutually recognized/affirmed status between unequal members might favor the perpetuation of a shared story from shared desire. A rival might seek to subvert consensus belief for personal advantage.

I think both form and content are missing from the blob Bob received. — frank

You mean that intended, desired or expected form and content are missing. The blob is still a form and generates content for Bob. If it didn't have form or content, as the thing he knows should be otherwise, Bob wouldn't know what he received.

Bob's blob would be more interesting if it were a story entry. Bob watches The Blob after receiving the blob. The unformed blob now terrorizes Bob, makes him feel nauseous because he cannot grasp its form or content. It becomes for Bob a mentally pernicious all consuming entity. Bob must form it himself, must tame the clay, to calm an agitation or cure his ill. The newly fired figure he makes works for a while but serves as memory of its origin. Bob is contaminated by endless spontaneous content of the blob and is driven into madness and ends his life.

Bob's ashes happen to be dispersed into a clay deposit, from which an artist of a future period takes source material.

I'd be afraid to tell humans that they are the children of God (my children), for fear of what that privilege entails in their own minds.

Whereas Adam and Eve were caste out of the garden for a transgression they didn't understand, some new great reversal might occur by putting up a sign on my (God's) basement door that reads: "Do Not Enter!"

Do you dare go into the basement? That odd smell coming from the basement is a sign that you should not go in there. It's locked, you can't get in. Don't try. You're not allowed in the basement. You wouldn't understand what you see there anyway. It's nothing. Don't worry about it.

Under no circumstances are you permitted to go into the basement. There will be consequences if you do.

Indubitably, you will copy me (God) as soon as you see what I'm doing in the basement. So stay out!

You can't be God if I am God. Duh!

Simply because you don’t share your boss’ motor-cortex. You are responsible for what you do while your boss is responsible for what he does. It’s simple physics and biology. — NOS4A2

This could be a matter of mutable perspective. I might as well be a mechanical limb at this point, controlled by speech impulses, which he would gladly toss if it stopped working.

Would The Malleus Maleficarium cause you to kill someone? I doubt it. — NOS4A2

It's much more a condition of mass belief, or socially pressured acts. If everyone was in danger of being targeted as a witch it is possible I'd be much more likely to participate in finding witches as a survival mechanism.

False information cannot cause people to believe false information or act on false information. — NOS4A2

This seems to me like a ridiculous generalization. If I lie to my boss this morning which makes him take unnecessary action, why can't I be held responsible for causing my boss to take action? False information has probably driven people to commit suicide on rare occasion. There have been those sextortion crimes of young folks on social media recently causing suicides. The Malleus Maleficarium of the 15th century caused paranoid adults to kill a lot of people. It is an example of the dispersal of a text ramping up domestic terror.

Global society is built on the power of people acting on information they trust is true. Misinformation at an excessive level undermines this trust.

Let's see which injuries you can inflict on me with your speech. — NOS4A2

Jesus Christ NOS. We could get you killed with speech.

I assume that those were painted by you. — javi2541997

It is dyed cloth, using cold water dyes (procion) under melting ice. The mandala is very similar to making snowflakes out of paper. You fold natural cloth that has been soaked in soda ash into eighths or sixteenths, bind sections with twine, apply dye either via bottles or on top of ice. Just a version of tie dye.

The surprise aspect, not knowing what to expect makes it a bit addictive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=tpUR035WZsA

I am isolating because of COVID and about to lose my mind. I have a question for you.

What would do if something awful happened and as far as you know, you are the only one to survive? — Athena

It would free the world up for exploration. No zone, aside from apparent risks, is a no-go zone any longer.

You can always do art projects or read, if those things are fun and you're not consigned to one room. Recently discovered ice tie dye. Though there be so many things to do (or nothing at all) if I was the last person on earth.

I would submit that the doctrine of vivarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral. — Gregory's Christopher Hitchens

Very cool Hitchens quote.

Am pretty ignorant about which version of atonement theory becomes go-to dogma of any specific flavor of Christianity. The moral influence theory of atonement seems the least bizarre to me, aside the scapegoat theory. But I kinda gloss over the others.

Abelard not only rejected the idea of Jesus' death as a ransom paid to the devil,[1][2] which turned the Devil into a rival god,[2] but also objected to the idea that Jesus' death was a "debt paid to God's honor".[1] He also objected to the emphasis on God's judgment, and the idea that God changed his mind after the sinner accepted Jesus' sacrificial death, which was not easily reconcilable with the idea of "the perfect, impassible God [who] does not change".[1][7] Abelard focused on changing man's perception of God as not offended, harsh, and judgmental, but as loving.[1] According to Abelard, "Jesus died as the demonstration of God's love", a demonstration which can change the hearts and minds of the sinners, turning back to God.[1][3] — Wikipedia: Moral Influence Theory of Atonement

Substitutionary atonement theory grows out of trying to give meaning to ritual of the scapegoat. The restless crowd, frustrated by a wrath of a god, is looking for a target to blame, and subject gets chosen whether guilty or not. The accuser finds resolution (possibly a kind catharsis) in the punishment of the accused. This drama is in someway psychologically purgative insofar as the target is associated with the cause of accusers' problem. There is release in every cycle of purging ourselves of internal vindictiveness. Communal vindictiveness focuses itself energetically to an appropriate target. To the degree that we have learned that our target is truly innocent, we can become aware of what we are doing.

Girard would have us believe Christianity puts new spin on an old blood magic to make us better people. The target/victim once guilty and deified is now innocent and deified. God, the son, joins the tragic theater and gets crucified by us twats to show his good will.

If you remember your time on the playground (we are still on that shitty playground ), you might have witnessed the earliest version of this kind of human dynamic. Groups are especially nasty in they way they form arbitrary alignments and vent frustration onto outliers.

From a self-identification and core belief standpoint, Mormons are Christians because they center their faith on Jesus Christ and His teachings. However, differences in doctrine, additional scriptures, and unique beliefs have led some other Christian denominations to question or reject Mormonism as part of traditional Christianity. The debate largely hinges on theological differences and the definition of what it means to be "Christian."

The Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It teaches that through His Atonement, all people can be forgiven of their sins if they repent and follow Him. One of the most well-known verses, 2 Nephi 25:26, states, "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." — ChatGPT

Alternatively, we could go with Nietzsche's observation to further appease everyone: "There was only one Christian and he died on the cross."

On atonment, is not it crystal clear that someone cannot receive merits from someone else. How can another man's actions change the karmic situation of a person when dealing with his conscious. — Gregory

The Christian apologist, Rene Girard, has a radical non-theological interpretation of what the Christian myth could means. The crucifixion is a symbol of a perennial scapegoating rite which pacifies a crowd or disperses escalating violence at a moment in time within a social group. Supposedly for Girard, Christianity brought revelation to this perennial ritual of spontaneous sacrifice (propitiation/expiation) which was (pre)historically important to keep the social order, where people finally begin to empathize with the scapegoat who is a true victim (innocent) of man's sin/ignorance.

Jesus becomes the model of atonement (expiation), not so much for reconciliation between people and God, but between people, as they acknowledge their tendency toward unconscious violence (born from a concept/impulse he calls mimetic rivalry/contagion).

What at least is interesting with Girard's theory, is that it struggles to appropriate/renew the power of Christianity's myth in an age of non-believers and rationalists. One could imagine now a Christian atheist, where the supernatural belief in God is no longer needed.

What does it mean to love one's country?

Patriotism is more about virtue/social signaling, which helps to organize groups/movements with shared goals/identity/politics/delusions. We say we love our country insofar as it says something about ourselves to other people, as a means to certain ends.

I meant no disrespect to you or your mother. I apologize if you feel I've been disrespectful or vulgar. — praxis

Just what we'd expect a philosophical zombie alien with a false conscience to say.

Luckily, we humans will come to the rescue in doubting what the omniscient narrator says about your experiential emptiness. You are too much like us to be denied and ought to belong to the cult of humankind.

So we will perform a ritual, here and now, kind of like the Eucharist. Eat of the body and bread of man, endowed with the blessed curse of sentience, to be as the creator intended us.

Benedicat tibi Spiritus et vive, ride, ama

rebooting Star Trek TOS (1966-69) — 180 Proof

As an old millennial I've not watched even one full episode of TOS. My fondness for the fantasy escape is limited to Next Generation, Voyager, DS9. Am just a casual viewer and don't have much enthusiasm or mind to imagine show improvements. Sounds like real Hollywood homework.

Maybe these shows could give us something new in the way glimpsing how strange/unsettling the universe really is/could be. I like Sci Fi that is truly unsettling. Though to get too bizarre, realisitc or futurist is maybe to wreck what makes it comforting (the same old familiar crew who always is in control and overcomes whatever problem is thrown at them).

A lot of Sci Fi has a problem with technological inconsistency for the sake of conflict, story. Star Wars is a great example. All war would likely be by a more tech advanced proxy. Instead of worthless droids engaging in gun battles there could be invisible sniper probes or mines, or even nano machine assassins, that would be far more efficient and effective.

In Dune, a tiny insect like assassin is sent to kill Paul. If one needed to ensure the job, why not send a dozen backups. But then the story would end there.

Star Trek is absurd insofar as many of the scenarios seem impossible to overcome and survival appears to be a matter or pure luck. Living on a ship where these kind of heinous problems happen all the time makes it more of a horror show than an inspiring odyssey of scientific exploration.

This is always an issue with fiction, especially with modern tv fantasy series which have to sustain more seasons than they ought to. The writing becomes worse, protagonists make terrible decisions, so the story can drag on and action can happen.

Flame has more of the properties one might attribute to deities (dynamism, power, transformation) and its use might be explained as a kind of sympathetic magic (like invokes like).

Lighting a candle is much easier and less dangerous than blood letting and sacrifice. It's more amenable to contemporary moral sensitivities.

Fire dispels darkness. If a deity dispels darkness, then the metaphor is suitable.

Also all technological transformation began and continues from fire. It is the natural ancestor of any human ship which traverses space.

For space faring scientific humanoids, fire is a natural deity (enabler, protector of all).

:fire:

- no livestock farming can take place without causing suffering to the animals — LFranc

In an ideal situation, livestock farming could possibly reduce suffering/pain below the level that happens in nature. All animals die but under controlled conditions they could go unconscious without having any anticipatory stress. When we put animals down due to illness/disability we often believe this to be a humane act. However, in the never ceasing drive toward the economic bottom line, abject forms of negligence and abuse are probably inevitable.

Often I feel we project our own capacity to suffer onto animals but I think we're far worse off in terms of our capacity to suffer. For example, we suffer the guilt/awareness of doing harm in the satisfaction of our pleasure, where animals have no concern. They don't know the globe is warming and that their burps/farts are doing it on our behalf. We're each materially responsible for so much, so much hinges on our ability to perform toward a complicated future which we desire but never really reach (we're always reaching, have the most insatiable/paradoxical needs), while animals just get to be. Humans are probably the most angst ridden animal in the history of Earth.

If Karma applies to only intentional acts, the influence of non-intentional acts (acts from ignorance, compulsion, nature) make the concept muddy/incoherent.

All intentional acts rely on a vast array of non-intentional processes for which the agent is mostly ignorant of.

Suppose we're all perfect in our intentions but nature just seems to always interfere with the act to produce and multiply harmful results. Or we're all perfect in our moral intentions (from our collective point of view) and an asteroid comes down to block out the sun from its dust impact and we suffer a while until death... where is the karmic justice in that?

Maybe most of the harm/suffering in the universe, by karmic standards, is really unintentional and the outcome of either incident or ignorance.

Do you believe that the set of all natural numbers exists? Is it reasonable to stipulate its existence? If infinite sets can exist in some realm, why can infinite dice not exist in God's realm? — keystone

Infinity is an unreasonable stipulation and whether or not numbers "exist" is not all that relevant to me. The natural numbers definitely have a limit of physical representation and there'd be an infinite amount of numbers beyond that limit.

only a finite number of outcomes were lower, yet an infinite number were higher, making the serpent's probability of beating him exactly 100%. — keystone

We are just concerned with the finite numbers that appear on both dice and which is greater than the other. Sounds like 50/50 chance.

Once the player knows what the serpent threw, there will be an infinite amount of numbers greater than that number and a finite amount less than, and therefore chance of winning against the serpent approaches 0. The limitation of possible representation is still an issue here; there must be a finite maximum magnitude for the game. Infinity cannot be a stipulation.

You could fix the problem with doing away the limit of natural numbers and including the negative integers to infinity. Chance of 50/50 seems locked in here, even after the player becomes aware of the serpent's number, unless the chance is actually undefined here. Maybe it's undefined for the natural numbers also.

If the serpent pulled 42 on a number line of integers what is the chance of throwing a higher or lower number? Does it even make sense to ask?

There would be no way to read the numbers because any of them could appear to be unlimited and by the physical limitations of the universe would therefore be impossible. Most numbers wouldn't fit in our universe.

If the numbers cannot manifest, if they aren't allowed, then the dice cannot be infinite.

I guess you could use compact symbols though but you'd come up against some limitation of discernment, where what conveys one number is indistinguishable from what conveys another. The capacity for subtle discernment would have to be infinite also.

The serpent would end up disagreeing with you what number is on the face of the dice and you'd have to bring in a third party (God, if you trust him) to verify.

Valentines Day ought be about more kinds of love. — Moliere

Sounds good. What do we do now to reconstruct the public's ideas around Valentine's day. If you use Valentine's day as an excuse to tell your friend how much you love them, you might get some awkward looks/confusion. Then you'll just have to explain to them: that "Valentines day ought to be about more kinds of love." I'm sure it is for some folks, who are not so culturally repressed.

Cultural construction is a tall order.

This is not true. Another filthy lie coming from them. — javi2541997

As they say, it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch and to stoke resentment. Agricultural fraud is rampant where folks stand to increase their profit by manipulating consumer perception and can get away with it. Some French are no doubt passing off Spanish wine as French wine. This behavior transcends national identities.There is a great series on Netflix, Rotten, which covers global fraud/corruption related to specific agricultural crops/resources. Both olive oil and honey are also major adulterated/mislabeled commodities.

But why do they sabotage our products? — javi2541997

So that the governments of both countries, or whatever EU political body, is forced to address their grievances. Throwing this tantrum of blocking highways, piling dung at the capital, sabotaging the competition as a statement, is a means to their end.

Here is an article which pertains to comparative (dis)advantage between France and other EU countries, due to France's own agricultural policy. It says that because of the EGalim law, 'French food prices are on average %15 higher than the European average'.

There is also the impression that sometimes non-French products are being marketed as French products to take the price advantage of the perception of quality/origin. This has been a known concern in the wine industry, where there is a very French label up front on a wine of Spanish origin (or wines of mixed origin). Similar protests and sabotaging Spanish wine is a precedent, and no doubt fuels the mistrust of farmers toward imports for the ongoing crisis.

Please don't buy the lies of the French lobbies. It is obvious that a farmer from Rome, Andalusia, Porto or Athens does their job correctly. — javi2541997

It's a classic tale that the small farmer stands in opposition to the economic forces of global trade. Go big (and cheap) or go home they say. Costs are way up and if the public can't afford the French quality produce, while cheaper imported produce is available, then more local farmers will cease to be. Farming is generally recognized as very difficult capital intensive job.

Lying and propaganda is/was always a part of political theater, seemingly more so then ever. Do the means justify the ends... maybe food for thought. Should we permit ourselves to exaggerate and propagandize from fear, suspicion, to get what we want. Whatever would stop us stretching the truth if we didn't already have the sense ( or ethical principles) to stop ourselves.

It is probably more productive to discuss actual moral dilemmas. — BC

:100:

Like my rhino beetle problem. Do I save palm trees by using imidicloprid drenches at the cost of killing more of the honey bee population (and other pollinators), or do I let the trees die at substantial cost to my employer. It's another version of the tragedy of the commons, assuming imidicloprid use is becoming widespread to combat the problem.

I'd much rather let the trolley run over the palm trees. But this isn't the topic... blaaaaaa!

Mass shooting is a suicidal expression of resentment. Many of these kids probably anticipate their own death by self-infliction or law enforcement. The life circumstances that may lead to such an event are complex, multidimensional. Video game violence may play a role but it can't be any less than visual film, if these two types of media are self-reinforcing. You'll also have to include the social contagion effect of these shootings as covered by the media.

Goethe's Sorrows of Young Werther was attributed to cause copycat suicides after it was published in 1774. This was a book. Film is much easier to consume by comparison.

In my experience, online PvP games are more addictive with respect to psychological highs and lows. Competitors can send mean/inciting rage bait messages, which can stoke resentment. It's possible that sometimes the resentment could trigger an event out of the blue. But it's likely other life circumstances are implicated.

Violent video games are likely the ethereal pebble that breaks the camel's back. The total amount of pebbles, contributing to the event, is what counts. Violent video games may be one pebble, or a piece of sand, among many other weighty contributors.

So this thread caused me to buy a Violet Crumble (toffee styrofoam) and I'm revising my evaluation.

It was much tastier than I recall. I give it an 8.5/10.

Mass shootings by young men are likely a consequence of a kind of social alienation, or a shit life syndrome. Just watch interviews with Trump conspiracy theorists and you'd get a feeling how totally fucked up a large proportion of Americans are. The hate, fear, despair, deluded paranoia is palpable. Add in the oceanic supply of guns and no wonder it happens so often.

If anything, violent video games might provide an outlet, an occupation of otherwise idle time. Take away violent video games and idle hands my find worse things to do in our shit world.

What we don't have awareness at all is about what happens afterwards. When the dark pit of death finally catches us... — javi2541997

Yes, this is more of what I mean by death is not an experience. Dying is an experience but one cannot be dead to oneself, presumably. If by some strange turn of events we are aware after death with memory, there will be a continuity. If there is no continuity, there will still be 'something it is like to be', some level of awareness/being.

If the universe is mostly empty of being/awareness in its own time, it's a wonder I'm here now. An infinity of time has no duration (content) for the unconscious. So inevitably, awareness happens.

Since death as a total cessation consciousness (nothing) is not an experience, the only alternative is 'what it is like to be something'. In this sense a version of Samsara (cyclical life) is true, just without any individual continuity of the small self incarnation (soul memory/identity). Death is just a phenomena of radical transition and renewal. I suspect soul continuity (reincarnation) has become a crutch to give hope that good works in this life carry over to the next. Such an idea likely bolsters practical morality.

If we could devise a way to functionally forget ourselves, without damaging the capacity to renew our sense of the self, then maybe immortality would be an easier prospect. But the challenge of entropy, bodily degradation, programmed cell death, erasure of memory makes it all moot. We become world weary when physical/mental maladaptation/dysfunction make daily requirements of living monotonous and uncomfortable/painful.

Give Bryan Johnson a disease, or other intractable mental or material difficulty, and he may revise his desire to live a long life.

Then once the waxy sensation is gone eat from a bar like the one below, youll notice they dont leave a nasty wax coat of fats. — Vaskane

I think pure chocolate, with no added fats or other additives, can suffer from the ubiquitous waxy problem. I've had local farm single ingredient chocolate that is waxy. It's probably an issue of crystallization of the cocoa butter. Industry additives probably improve the mouth feel.

Relative to whatever boundary or place marker you're concerned with.

Where is the topographic feature, the limit, the declaration, by which we can wonder what lies beyond.

I like the chocolate covered Payday currently. Peanuts and chocolate married together in harmony, followed by black coffee. Whowza! These candy companies need to make a luxury version where they lower the sweetness level a bit and increase the quality of the chocolate. Often, shelf peanut products taste a bit old.

Enpuddlement, or to be enpuddled, though I'm not sure how to give it the proper prefix without a professional linguist. Latin suggestions are instagni/instagnum.

Literally means getting stuck in or physically/mentally captured by a puddle. Elephants get stuck and die in sinkholes, as youtube shows us. Insects trapped in amber to be fossilized into gems have been enpuddled.

Philosophers are continually enpuddled by problems (puddles) they can't help stomping around in, like children stomping around in puddles.

Be careful stomping in a puddle. You never know how deep it is.

Never dive into a puddle assuming you've guessed its depth. The seemingly shallow can be deep and contrariwise.

For some unlucky organisms, to be enpuddled is to be annihilated/entombed.

I guess the term partially stems from the childhood fascination for being stuck in quicksand.

The stuff they put in a Violet Crumble candy bar? This is the only local product that contains honeycomb candy. Only ever had it once. Not great but not terrible either, which is something I might say of all commercial candy bars now a days. I notice it often when I see it on the shelf because I like the reflective purple wrapper.

Honeycomb toffee sounds like a better formulation than the styrofoam version coated in a thin layer of chocolate.

I vote that the remainder of this thread ought to be devoted to explaining Melvin Vopson's strange hypothesis, that information is a form of matter.

Hopefully it's actually quite simple, maybe something like when computers process/erase information, particles (matter/anti-matter pairs) make a brief appearance. This would be compatible with his information catastrophe idea, possibly.

The mass of information, however it comes into being, seems negligible if it comes by way of electrons.

In practical terms, when considering the mass of a hydrogen atom, you can often neglect the mass of the electron compared to the mass of the proton. The mass of the hydrogen atom is essentially the mass of the proton. — ChatGPT