There aren't enough polling options.

This thread will be about Mr. Turtlehead and Mongrel's prose poetry.

Nietzsche's central argument for anti-realism about value is explanatory: moral facts don't figure in the “best explanation” of experience, and so are not real constituents of the objective world. Moral values, in short, can be “explained away.” Such a conclusion follows from Nietzsche's naturalism (on the latter, see the competing accounts in Janaway 2007 and Leiter 2013). As we saw in the context of Nietzsche's critique of morality, Nietzsche thinks a person's moral beliefs can be explained in naturalistic terms, i.e., in terms of type-facts about that person. Thus, to explain a person's moral judgments, one needn't appeal to the existence of objective moral facts: psycho-physical facts about the person suffice. Thus, since non-evaluative type-facts are the primary explanatory facts, and since explanatory power is the mark of objective facts, it appears that there cannot be any value facts. Moral judgments and evaluations are “images” and “fantasies,” says Nietzsche, the mere effects of type-facts about agents (D 119). — Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Nietzsche's Moral and Political Philosophy, by David Papineau

Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Nietzsche's Moral and Political Philosophy: 3.2 Nietzsche's Anti-Realism

The “inner world” is full of phantoms…: the will is one of them. The will no longer moves anything, hence does not explain anything either — it merely accompanies events; it can also be absent. The so-called motive: another error. Merely a surface phenomenon of consciousness — something alongside the deed that is more likely to cover up the antecedents of the deeds than to represent them….

What follows from this? There are no mental [geistigen] causes at all. (TI VI:3) — Nietzsche

This is over my head by it sounds like N. is arguing that free will is an illusion.

Don't despair if you are a hopeless philistine either. You can sublimate your will to power in all sorts of healthy ways, in a dominance hierarchy of your choosing. Take Donald Trump as an example. The most abject philistines can still be king.

Nazism in it's propoganda for example promoted a pretentious intellectual acknowledgement of commonly received moral values whilst cynically concealing the reality of it’s transgressions of same in practice - but from a process not really defined. — Lockhart

I think we see this contradiction all the time between professed values and actual behavior. There are always more basic (instinctual) sorting processes at play which we aren't very aware of.

We can profess a moral commitment to equality but it won't make less attractive people more attractive (how does attractiveness influence your moral judgment for example), since you are essentially deciding at times to choose against your instincts (swim upstream).

Blind faith in a dogma (fundamentalism) might be an example where the moral conditioning aspect of experience is undermined by an appeal to a vicarious source (sacred doctrine or appeal to authority). In other words, instead of trying to figure out what is good on the basis of risk taking, success and failure, in a field of action, we couple our action to simple rule following. Though at some basic level of social interaction, pragmatic decisions are always being made.

I guess my example is wrong then, depending exactly upon what is meant by vicarious experience. Seeing someone punished or shamed for an action is not an example of vicarious experience. It would be if we were reading about it though?

Someone who touches a hot stove will be far better conditioned (via memory of experience) to avoid touching a hot stove in the future than someone who just read that "one should never touch a hot stove".

We've had the evolved capacity for self-advancing strategies in group settings for a long time.

There are some species of bats that feed each others young but are able to recognize bats who do not participate in the same strategy. These non-reciprocating bats are then treated by others with a non-reciprocating strategy (ie. their young no longer benefit from open communal feeding).

This behavior probably matches human behavior in many local circumstances where reciprocal altruism is the norm (ie. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine). I guess, even here, we are doing just this.

I don't see why reference to a law or custom, which restrains or modifies how an individual feels about some action, isn't tantamount to a kind moral awareness. It boils down to the simple fact that if you transgress a taboo, you will lose some kind of benefit conferred by following the rules about that taboo in a group setting.

As was the case of Nazism, if citizens didn't conform to the group behavior, they would have been putting their livlihoods at risk.

If not, then what makes the processor(s) in Data, Eva or any potential computer different from pencil and paper? — Marchesk

Pencil and paper can't get you a cup of "Earl Grey Tea, Hot!" or play Chopin, or win against you in a Chess match, et cetera. Pencil and paper can't even read itself.

But none of this makes it the case that moral judgments are anything other than how individuals feel about behavior. — Terrapin

Thanks for your elaboration.

Morality is "in-built" just like pain is. Moral judgments are a way that your brain works. Environment can influence those judgments, but you don't receive the judgments from your environment. — Terrapin

Well, I get the basic feelings (instincts) that are associated with action to form judgment but what determines moral judgment often comes from outside the individual (from culture) and is sometimes at odds with a person's feeling.

For someone who is morally naive might think it's okay to kill dogs for pleasure or walk around in public naked. They would need to learn that society deems these actions immoral. Such laws may or not have an intelligible reason for their being, so there may not be an obvious why.

It teaches that the proper mode is to be poor, helpless, and full of self-loathing. Agree? — mongrel

It's essentially the condition of Job (Biblical figure) where instead there is a lack of faith in God (or the standard morality) coupled with misfortune.

Why not exercise the power of revenge upon those who are just as undeserving for their fortune, out of spite? If life is worthless for the fringe, marginal, dispossessed, why not perpetuate the chaos of their own hell?

Some nihilists (driven mad by resentment) are wrecked beyond saving.

I still don't see why you would say morality is not learned.

If I put my hand on a hot stove as a child, do I not quickly "learn" that it is painful and undesirable to touch a hot stove.

...education of values is so inimical to vicarious experience

Morality can be learned by vicarious experience (ie. a shamed or punished substitute for yourself in some circumstances), such that those who really suffer its transgression become an example to others by which their own behavior can be modified. It's monkey see, monkey do (or don't do).

Reading about an execution (or softer punishment) is a bit different from observing one first hand though, or being a participant.

Morality isn't actually learned... — Terrapin

How is it acquired then? Please elaborate.

Moderators are here to kick out those who don't play the game (ie. buy the values of philosophy).

Intellectuals are here to shame us kids (ie the ugly and unformed) from grown up talk (ie. refined subtle ideas that pleasure you so).

Life is constant moral posturing, vying for status, tribal virtue signaling, work, work, work. Social pressure never lets up. No wonder people are unhappy. I can't compete with this stuff.

We live in a society where you are suppose to compete for your position. Nothing is assured. It's about winning, just like dipshit Trump says.

Maybe if I had a product to make me smell smarter, like a roll on brain deodorant stick.

(N) :’(

Grown men do have a problem with a build of up rancid oil in their clothes. Detergent and non-chlorine bleach do not fully eliminate this problem. The odor is universal, distinct and it is something that is hard to eliminate, unless you have an advanced technique of laundry washing.

I don't want to be sitting in a room that has been coated in Fabreeze. Have always been a bit paranoid about industrially manufactured mystery concoctions, but still use conventional laundry detergents.

Commercials are often loud, obnoxious and dumb. Hopefully the era of online streaming will do away with them.

I experimented with non-addictive hallucinatory/dissociative drugs mainly because it gave me inclusion in a social group, it broke down inhibitions. It also wasn't really a choice because I was so desperate for the pleasure of being high with friends. The drugs were a means to really connect with people who are otherwise divided by oppressive cultural norms.

One night everyone piled on-top of each other and we all felt like we were one organism. It was hilarious and ecstatic.

My biology got thrown out of whack though. Stress levels went through the roof and I spiraled into severe depression. Two of my friends had a psychotic break. One cut his wrists, another drove through a concrete barrier.

Depending on the psychological stability or health of the person and the context in which it is used, recreational drug use can be more or less dangerous.

(Y) (Y) (Y)
(Y) (Y) (Y)

Imagine a future where A.I. can interpret and build a structure from your writing, such that descriptions are enriched into other formats and languages without having to know how to speak those languages.

The goal is easy and fluid transcription, from 2D to 3D to 4D and back.

Thanks for reply and concern.

The post in question is no longer important to me and will send a PM next time. It may be that I was looking at post preview and failed to submit it but doesn't explain missing draft.

I think I'm having internet connection issues (on and off).



No Hanover, it wasn't helpful. Go do something useful.

Pet traumatic stress disorder
Widespread asthmatic crisis
Worst hang overs known to young bipedal apes
Insomnia

What is not to like about New Year's eve?

The problem with plant growth enhancement is dealing with the more basic limiting factors of growth (water and soil fertility). These factors have to be dealt with first before any secondary improvement.

There are great ideas for fixing global problems that can't be implemented because there is no financial incentive. The Terra Preta soils of South America made biochar a hot topic, as both a soil amendment that improves growth while also sequestering a stable source of carbon back into the ground. While it is a fantastic idea it is too costly. I'd love to see someone looking for funding a biochar startup on Shark Tank (instead you get disgustingly shit products that siphon off consumer surplus) .

The purpose of art is to satisfy that "not enough" feeling that seems to torture us all.

Let's go back to the future of the new romantic movement! Don your cosplay and engage the public.

You're being evicted from the armchair and the cybernetic prison that is this forum.

The Borg is a just a commune of analytical philosophers. Resistance is futile.

There is a secondary circadian clock which is regulated by digestion, so you probably don't want to eat too late. Limit your eating window to 8 hrs as a matter of habit.

Take a hot epsom salt bath before bed.

If we care too much about non-human suffering, then our right to sell and buy fried, grilled, roasted or sauteed animal might be taken away by moral agents.

Sarcasm Tags might be useful to indicate when we want to ridicule and point out irony without voice inflection.Sarcasm

Troll Or when we are a pro-inflammatory hypocrite, or an uninsightful disturber of serious discussion.Troll

Sarcasm--->Not only should we be punished for misreading but also for post redundancy due to skipping posts. I suppose it could be part of the PF's behavioral engineering program.<---Sarcasm

Catholics wouldn't be able to eat Jesus if he hadn't undergone the crucifixion (dismemberment).

The blood and flesh of Jesus were once that of Dionysus (wine representing the spirit of the that god). Maybe Jesus is far more Apollonian now, an formal image emptied of ritual ecstasies or awe with an oppressive cultural entailment, in the light of our hyper rational age.

I wonder if Nietzsche ever talked about the symbolism of Christianity as it relates to these two impulses.

More than one wife is traditional in some parts of the world. What cultural script should we follow?

Maybe it's about the existential functions of good art, given that Nietzsche was complaining about the decline of Greek tragedy with the rise of the Socratic impulse.

Nearly everything is unintelligible in a supreme sense, until we have to sit and listen to the mind give us a lesson on whatever it is it wants to explain.

None of us have the time, patience or audacity for such a feat.

Life is 70% ridiculous and 25% horrific and 5% everything else.

So any discussion about the meaning of the meaning of life is by default ridiculous.

I agree with BC's assessment. But also, meaning must predate language and culture, even if it just comes down to a rudimentary quality of experience adapted by instincts.

Is a carrot meaningful to an elephant?
Does a mouse find any pleasure in a cookie crumb?

Yes.

Witcher 3 for the gorgeous medieval landscape and soap opera.

Tested free trial of StarCraft II but looks like you have to pay for each of the race campaigns. Looks like fun (or at least distraction from existential woe).

More interested in learning how to build 3-D objects/designs for the future promise of 3D printing.
Design suites and software are prohibitively expensive, but need to do some more searching.

If we dumped out a collection of stuff onto a table, you'd be able to meaningfully sort through it on the basis of what might be useful to you at a present or future date.

We assess the value of things, people (et cetera).

If you were heavily depressed, to the point that you couldn't even look at the stuff I dumped out on to the table, then maybe there has been a significant loss in the capacity to find value in those things.

Depressed and anxious people are likely to say that "life has no meaning." Maybe there are perceived barriers to acquiring a meaningful state of being for many people.

I often think that if I only had tons of money, life would be more enjoyable, since the tedium and unpleasantness of work could be dispensed with in pursuit of other options (meaningful kinds of work).

You have to exist first before you put on parfum (essence).

"It will never be known what acts of cowardice have been committed for fear of not looking sufficiently progressive."

This highlights the well known psychological pressure of group conformity. "Cowardice" and what is "progressive" is partially defined by the group you're embedded in or trying to appeal to.

If you can't chug way too much beer through your anus, you're probably a "pussy" in some frat circle. What that might have to do with being progressive is up for debate. Status can "progress" in a group hierarchy.

"Everything begins in mysticism and ends in politics."

The Red Elephants see great opportunity in blood sport (red is toward others, flushed alertness: fear).

The Blue Donkeys are burdened with a slave cart (blue is toward the self, blood has left the face: fear).

Every Donkephant is a Elekey, enrobed in a purple mantle of toward others toward the self.

Or... Go Cubs!

The flame of boredome and suffering renders it all into what might well be mystery.

Edit: It's backwards. Everything begins in politics and ends in mysticism.

My bed and my sleep have been monetized by titanic productivity.

The earth is actually a horde of Dragon's gold and you have to rent a space (a coin) to sleep on, all the while feeling anxiety of being eaten up in the process. Dragons don't eat gold, they eat people.

Just say no to Dragon gold, of which nearly everything is turned.

Make your clothes out of coins, be the gold that the Dragon values, and you'll be fine.

So Lambda is responsible for this mess.